Pastor Or Reverend??? - Printable Version
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Pastor Or Reverend??? - Mark - 07-09-2009 01:40 PM
Just a quick question. What is the difference between a pastor and a reverend? Our former pastor (as he asked us to call him) has moved to a new church (same denomination). I recently learned that he is now referred to as reverend and was made that through some sort of process. I'm not really sure exactly how he bacame that. I guess I'm not sure what the difference is. I thought that was mostly a Catholic title like Father. Any ideas on the title meaning and what it took for him to become one? Talk to you later.
RE: Pastor Or Reverend??? - Vic - 07-09-2009 04:21 PM
(07-09-2009 01:40 PM)Mark Wrote: Hi!
I believe the formal title of Reverend is for those who have completed semenary studies and then are officially ordained as receiving that title. I think it depends on the denomination or beliefs. However, reverend is not found in the scriptures as something to refer to fellow believers as. Regardless of who they are.
All the apostles referred to themselves by their first names. As a qualifier they would state what their specific job was--but they viewed themselves as fellow heirs, fellow believers, and brothers and sisters in Christ.
I don't believe it necessary or Biblical to have to refer to anyone with a "title". Jesus said to call no one rabbi or teacher, etc. Nor was one to require to be called by a title. There was a reason for that. Pride. And idolisation of others.
Matthew 23:7-12 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi. 8. But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. 9. And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. 10. Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. 11. But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. 12. And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.
Rabbi > G4461
Of Hebrew origin [H7227] with pronominal suffix; my master, that is, Rabbi, as an official title of honor: - Master, Rabbi.
Master > G2519
From a compound of G2596 and G2233; a guide, that is, (figuratively) a teacher: - master.
The definition of Reverend:
clergyman: a member of the clergy and a spiritual leader of the Christian Church
a title of respect for a clergyman
worthy of adoration or reverence
I know of no person who is worthy of reverence or who should be revered. The following holds the only instance of "reverend" in the Scriptures:
Psalms 111:1-10 Praise ye the LORD. I will praise the LORD with my whole heart, in the assembly of the upright, and in the congregation. 2. The works of the LORD are great, sought out of all them that have pleasure therein. 3. His work is honourable and glorious: and his righteousness endureth for ever. 4. He hath made his wonderful works to be remembered: the LORD is gracious and full of compassion. 5. He hath given meat unto them that fear him: he will ever be mindful of his covenant. 6. He hath shewed his people the power of his works, that he may give them the heritage of the heathen. 7. The works of his hands are verity and judgment; all his commandments are sure. 8. They stand fast for ever and ever, and are done in truth and uprightness. 9. He sent redemption unto his people: he hath commanded his covenant for ever: holy and reverend is his name. 10. The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.
Pastor is generally meaning "shepherd".
Jesus is our Good Shepherd. We are to follow and listen to Him.
John 10:11-15 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. 12. But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. 13. The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep. 14. I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. 15. As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
Eze 34:9 Therefore, O ye shepherds, hear the word of the LORD;
Eze 34:10 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against the shepherds; and I will require my flock at their hand, and cause them to cease from feeding the flock; neither shall the shepherds feed themselves any more; for I will deliver my flock from their mouth, that they may not be meat for them.
Eze 34:11 For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out.
Eze 34:12 As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day.
Eze 34:23 And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd.
Eze 34:24 And I the LORD will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the LORD have spoken it.
1Pe 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
Heb 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
Heb 13:21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
RE: Pastor Or Reverend??? - heb13-13 - 07-09-2009 04:39 PM
(07-09-2009 01:40 PM)Mark Wrote: Hi!
REV'EREND, a. [L. reverendus.]
1. Worthy of reverence; entitled to respect mingled with fear and affection; as reverend and gracious senators.
A reverend sire among them came.
[This epithet is, I believe, never applied to the Supreme Being, or to his laws or institutions. In lieu of it we use venerable.]
2. A title of respect given to the clergy or ecclesiastics. We style a clergyman reverend; a bishop is styled right reverend; an archbishop most reverend. The religious in catholic countries, are styled reverend fathers; abbesses, prioresses, &c. reverend mothers. In Scotland, as in the United States, the clergy are individually styled reverend. A synod is styled very reverend, and the general assembly venerable.
So, yes it is used in Catholic circles.
P`ASTOR, n. [L. from pasco, pastum, to feed.]
1. A shepherd; one that has the care of flocks and herds.
2. A minister of the gospel who has the charge of a church and congregation, whose duty is to watch over the people of his charge, and instruct them in the sacred doctrines of the christian religion.
We don't call anyone in our home fellowship by a title. God does not require it or even ask us to. We do call each other brother and sister once in awhile but that is not a title.
Pastor is more of a gifting or function in the Body of Christ, not a Title that goes in front of someone's name.
Even when the Apostles referred to each other they never used titles.
Gal 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
Gal 1:18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.
2Pe 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
Act 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
I was brought up and instructed to call Catholic Priests, FATHER. I never really liked that, but I sure bet they did.
Titles only serve to set people up on high, over those who do not have titles. We are told by Jesus not to call men by religious titles.
You see Mark, people that have religious titles do not have a BIG JESUS and the rest of us with NO Title, have a little jesus.
Actually, we all have the same Jesus or can have the same Jesus, since I cannot assume everyone HAS Jesus (by His Holy Spirit).
Religion has created the Clergy/Laity division. This was not God's doing.
Whenever I am introduced to someone and for instance, say he is introduced as Pastor Bob, I just say "Good to meet you, Bob". If I was ever introduced to a Catholic Priest, I would jettison his title first and use whatever name came after it, to greet him. When it comes to spiritual things, there are no titles. I do call men Mr. and women Miss or Mrs., and Dr., etc. But Jesus made it clear that men do not have Spiritual titles. See Matthew 23, below.
I know a friend who heard a "Pastor Jim" introduce himself to a 5 year old as "Pastor Jim". My friend said, "Come on Jim, give it a rest, he's only a 5 year old".
Quite ridiculous, don't you think?
Mark, read the following and tell me what you think? Have you seen such persons before. I bet you have.
Mat 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
Mat 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
Mat 23:4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
Mat 23:5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
Mat 23:6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
Mat 23:7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
Mat 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
Mat 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
Mat 23:10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
Mat 23:11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
Mat 23:12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.
P.S. I am respectful to all men. You can be respectful and honor all men without separating yourself from them with their titles.
RE: Pastor Or Reverend??? - Vic - 07-09-2009 04:56 PM
Were you peeking at my post when you wrote yours?
RE: Pastor Or Reverend??? - heb13-13 - 07-09-2009 05:25 PM
I'm not as fast as you and I make too many changes. Then when I post, someone else got in before me.
Must be that one mind in Christ, again.
RE: Pastor Or Reverend??? - SheitlQueen - 07-09-2009 06:43 PM
Okay, so how does "minister" relate to "reverend" and "pastor"...
and how about "preacher"?
RE: Pastor Or Reverend??? - Vic - 07-09-2009 06:52 PM
(07-09-2009 06:43 PM)SheitlQueen Wrote: Okay, so how does "minister" relate to "reverend" and "pastor"...
I think under the concept of "job description" title....same concepts. I personally feel it is based on from their perspective of their job and entitlement to that title or honor that is perceived to come with it.
RE: Pastor Or Reverend??? - heb13-13 - 07-10-2009 08:53 AM
(07-09-2009 06:52 PM)Vic Wrote:(07-09-2009 06:43 PM)SheitlQueen Wrote: Okay, so how does "minister" relate to "reverend" and "pastor"...
Never in the New Testament do we see the pastor as the "Key Man" upon whom rests the burden of speaking for the Body in a way that no other person can. Today, I have noticed that "leaders", more and more are prefixing their names with TITLES. Apostle, Bishop, Prophet, etc.
There is very little in the New Testament that would support the thesis that the church is to have a special class of Christians who rule over the church in place of the Head (Jesus).
Jesus' model of leadership has nothing to do with status or office. Leadership is important in the church but it is out of balance. When there is a preeminence of leadership it takes away from the every member ministry and reciprocal or "one another" ministry that Paul highlights all through his epistles.
The Church has only one class of members: blood-bought, born-again believers. Jesus explicitly forbade honorific titles among His people, His sheep.
Sad, but true, our institutional churches are dysfunctional and have grown away from the strict commands of Jesus. We have created something that the New Testament Church would not recognize. Most men today with titles don't even stop to think twice about why they are referred to with a title. They just think that it is normal (as far as Christianity goes, not Scriptures) and that they earned the title in some way, whether it be by education or being promoted by other men.
Titles only serve one purpose and that is to divide the sheep from the "more honored sheep".
Here are some verses to think on.
1Co 9:22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
1Co 4:10 We are fools for Christ's sake, but ye are wise in Christ; we are weak, but ye are strong; ye are honourable, but we are despised.
Joh 12:43 For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.
We always have to stay away from situations that would appeal to our pride.
That was a great question, Mark.
RE: Pastor Or Reverend??? - Pilgrim - 07-18-2009 08:38 PM
(07-10-2009 08:53 AM)heb13-13 Wrote: [color=#483D8B][b]Never in the New Testament do we see the pastor as the "Key Man" upon whom rests the burden of speaking for the Body in a way that no other person can. Today, I have noticed that "leaders", more and more are prefixing their names with TITLES. Apostle, Bishop, Prophet, etc.
I have seen numerous postings here with very well thought out responses...please be advised that this will not be one of them.
I have found myself rambling in the posting below, and straying off topic. Please excuse that, and feel free to delete what is not pertinent to the thread.
I can tell you how the title "pastor" was interpreted in a Oneness Pentecostal church I was a member of for quite awhile. He preached that he was the God ordaind leader of the flock, and that we were to follow him, as he followed God. I had even heard him say that he was the closest representation to God that we would see in our lifetime. (Am not joking)
The pastor also taught us that the office of pastor was the highest office of all, the Christian successor to a Jewish Rabbi. and, that any interpretation of the scripture other than his was incorrect.
Too often I have seen pastors and leaders not only treated special by other members, the reverence appeared to be both expected and required. When one pastor led a prayer, I remember the ushers barring the doors of the chapel to keep people from walking out. Seriously, they spread their legs and arms to keep anyone from moving in the chapel. I found that the church highly revered their pastor, his word was the same weight as Gods.
One of my observations over the years is that those who were very much into the personality cults of large or even small churches, those pastors/leaders were often highly respected by the congregation, but often this admiration turned into a dark side, where the pastor or teacher actually began to believe they were raised in stature than mere christians (lower case for emphasis). In essence, they became a god in their own eyes (my interpretation) when they became lords over the people seeking to serve God.
Seeing the entourage of a leader of a large charismatic church in Colorado entering into a place of worship was disheartening, not the honoring part by the congregation, but the expectation that it was his right and our requirement. I have seen a congregation of which I was a member to suffer while putting together offerings to the pastor for appreciation, and the pastor live in a residence that he did not pay for, but was given to him outright, that was worth 10 times the average church member's home or condition. And they thought it was a good thing.
Very seldom have I seen the reciprocal of that....a pastor or man leading a congregation in humility, someone who is not trying to turn Christianity into a money machine for their own support. When I do, my heart is humbled, and I see a glimpse of true Christianity.
My opinion is that many of today's pastors may have had good intentions at one point, but many are there as a career path. Have you heard a pastor indicate they were led to a particular church to serve, and then later, as another opportunity opens up, they suddenly hear a different calling? I have.
Whatever happened to following the leading of the Spirit? I led a group for one year only. The burden was there for one year, not for a lifetime career. I profited not at all, in fact I supported the group.
Over the years I have heard of many prophets, apostles, bishops, leaders, Christian Rabbis, etc. In established denominations, these come as a result of scholary achievement. In more charismatic denominations, this often comes by virtue of heredity, as much as education. I have seen a number of pastors pass their churches to their eldest son, as their right to lead the flock, and to partake of the reaping of the tithes and offerings.
For the record, I am not bitter, or trying to vent here. I learned much from many leaders of the church movement I was in, and for that foundation I am thankful. Yet, when I hear of someone referring to themselves as pastor, apostle, messenger from God, evangelist, etc., I immediately am wary. Not of the title, but how that person interprets their status with God.
Administrators, if I am totally off base here, my apologies.
RE: Pastor Or Reverend??? - sheep wrecked - 07-18-2009 09:13 PM
Actually Pilgrim, I found your post to be refreshingly honest and very insightful. You actually have stated quite concisely what has been my experience as well, having been born and raised in the church, and served in every capacity that was given me for 53 years.
I was also involved in numerous denominations where some pastors were called "Domini" - a term of reverence and adulation. I was taught my whole life that pastors were indeed, the very voice of God.
I wonder if this is why, when a Pastor lies, cheats, scams, prophesies falsely, or is reported to have "indiscretions" that people turn their discernment off, say that he just made a mistake, and reinstate him once again as their spiritual leader. It appears that "Christians" do not take their responsibility seriously and judge their leaders according to Biblical mandate.
Thanx for sharing, it was spot on