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What does it mean to bear fruit and what if you don't? - Vic - 07-29-2009 08:25 PM
What does it mean to 'bear fruit" and on the flip side, be unfruitful? What kind of fruit are we to exhibit?
What's the difference in our lives? And what can the result be?
Matthew 13:18-23 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower. 19. When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side. 20. But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; 21. Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended. 22. He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful. 23. But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
John 15:1-2 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
Mat 3:10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Matthew 7:15-20 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17. Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Mat 12:33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
RE: What does it mean to bear fruit and what if you don't? - Strefanash - 07-30-2009 02:24 AM
I believe this passage is about as clear as you can get in refuting Once Saved Always Saved. I take seriously the notion that those trees resisting cultivation and not bearing fruit are burned and that this burning is the destruction of the lost in hell.
BUT the issue here is to be in a relationship with the Spirit whereby he can prune us fertilise us, ie lead us in repentance to trust him etc. And the fruit, ie the behaviour he would produce in us, comes from this. In fact that he undertakes to produce these things in us is the promise of the new covenant. Not a series of rules but a personal relationship.
And, if we are in this relationship, my experience (my unbelief notwithstanding) is that his patience and kindness is vast indeed
Some have taken the parable of the soils to be proof that the souls that were choked and stony were not born again people. This is ridiculous, IMO. My source for this doctrine also claims that receiving the word with joy is a mark of a false conversion. I hold this to be nonsense, and insulting nonsense for this man told me to my face that I was not a christian because i told him of the joy in my conversion. He believes in terrorizing people with hellfire preaching (hence my continuing fear for i believed this man, now a resident preacher in the USA) and has stereotyped the grace of God to a formula that he devoutly follows, unaware that the Spirit, blowing like the wind, will not be contained by formulae therefore he has forsaken the Spirit
I take the stony and thorny soils to be those of us who are carnal and thus backslidden in the real sense of the term, despite the devoutness of our religious observance
But I take the fruit of the Spirit as being signs of knowing and loving the Lord, which I do not do, therefore I think it a mistake to define a born again believer as someone who knows and loves God. I am not denying that being born again is crucially essential, but to me it is the start of the process whereby He is restoring me and all of us to fellowship with him
However His grace continues with me, not because I love him but because of his purposes in me. (he has given me a measure of confidence in him by turning some of the things I once feared in him into things i can trust, namely his absolute monarchic power as Emperor and Great Sovereign)
I do think the verse "by their fruits you know them" speaks more powerfully than i ever thought. I no longer distinguish doctrine from fruit, thus if I claim to believe (in the biblical sense of believe, ie have accepted and submitted to the thing believed and not merely assent to its propositional truth) that God loves me but I live a carnal life, then i do not honestly believe the doctrine i espouse. And in my experience of conviction of sin this has been the case. So I now stop pretending to believe something just because it is true, there is no honesty to God in such a thing and such hypocrisy complicates his dealings with me if not outrightly causes them, hius dealings with me, to grind to a halt
However though I am carnal in full of bad fruit not all is lost. another passage says that a tree that bears no fruit he cultivates and fertilizes. THis is my experience with the Holy Spirit.
He is persuading me, one on one, leading me to repent of the sins of pride and fear which is unbelief. Let me say again that conviction of sin is in no way to do with condemnation or "feeling guity" which to me is a self indulgent waste of time and effort. It is gentle patient and the thing that leads to repentance
and when i genuinely come to believe in the love of the FAther I wil be full of love joy peace and patience.
I am holding out for that promise. If it means that I must be lead to admit that i am full of unbelief so be it
NONE of this is meant to be taken legalistically, that is to say we are not to strive to improve ourselves or show the fruit of the Spirit, or even make ourselves aware of our sin for if we do this they are not the fruits of the Spirit (ie the results of the Holy Spirit's activity) merely the flesh (ie ourselves as sinners acting againt God) and are not only hard work but worthless.
To me the pruning of the branch is not painful. there is far too much sadomasochistic preaching on this one, and it turns the christian life into a vale of tears, pie in the sky when you die and other such moribund heresy. To me in my experience the pruning of the branch is the repentance he leads me in. It is painless, (even if the sin i am repenting has me in a state of agony, which it still does) it is repentance without regret and it is leading me deeper in to himself.
More later, this is an issue i have spent 31 years thinking of, in fact today is the 31st anniversary of my damascus road style conversion, 30 July 1978
RE: What does it mean to bear fruit and what if you don't? - sheep wrecked - 07-30-2009 08:06 PM
(07-30-2009 02:24 AM)Strefanash Wrote: But I take the fruit of the Spirit as being signs of knowing and loving the Lord, which I do not do, therefore I think it a mistake to define a born again believer as someone who knows and loves God. I am not denying that being born again is crucially essential, but to me it is the start of the process whereby He is restoring me and all of us to fellowship with him
However His grace continues with me, not because I love him but because of his purposes in me. (he has given me a measure of confidence in him by turning some of the things I once feared in him into things i can trust, namely his absolute monarchic power as Emperor and Great Sovereign)
I do think the verse "by their fruits you know them" speaks more powerfully than i ever thought. I no longer distinguish doctrine from fruit, thus if I claim to believe (in the biblical sense of believe, ie have accepted and submitted to the thing believed and not merely assent to its propositional truth) that God loves me but I live a carnal life, then i do not honestly believe the doctrine i espouse. And in my experience of conviction of sin this has been the case. So I now stop pretending to believe something just because it is true, there is no honesty to God in such a thing and such hypocrisy complicates his dealings with me if not outrightly causes them, hius dealings with me, to grind to a halt
However though I am carnal in full of bad fruit not all is lost. another passage says that a tree that bears no fruit he cultivates and fertilizes. THis is my experience with the Holy Spirit.
He is persuading me, one on one, leading me to repent of the sins of pride and fear which is unbelief. Let me say again that conviction of sin is in no way to do with condemnation or "feeling guity" which to me is a self indulgent waste of time and effort. It is gentle patient and the thing that leads to repentance
and when i genuinely come to believe in the love of the FAther I wil be full of love joy peace and patience.
I am holding out for that promise. If it means that I must be lead to admit that i am full of unbelief so be it
NONE of this is meant to be taken legalistically, that is to say we are not to strive to improve ourselves or show the fruit of the Spirit, or even make ourselves aware of our sin for if we do this they are not the fruits of the Spirit (ie the results of the Holy Spirit's activity) merely the flesh (ie ourselves as sinners acting againt God) and are not only hard work but worthless.
What I am hearing you say is that you can only bear fruit if you love the Lord, which you really can't, even though God said we should, but it's actually only the flesh and not the fruit, because we don't have the promise yet, when we are told we do, but can't because we live in the flesh and not the Spirit, so we can't walk in the flesh and have the fruit of the Spirit at the same time, because we don't love God genuinely enough, and no one can ever exhibit the fruits of the Spirit because its always just us sinners striving to get better, and therefore cannot ever expect to walk in the Spirit perfectly enough to have the fruit of the Spirit.
Stref: when i genuinely come to believe in the love of the FAther I wil be full of love joy peace and patience"
What you seem to fully reject is that anyone can and does believe in the Love of the Father, then actually does have the love, joy, peace, patience and other attributes promised to us. We are the vessel *through which* God's love and mercy abound because we are the temple of the Holy Spirit.
Many do know the Love of the Father because of Jesus Christ. And they do have the love, joy peace and other attributes that come from having the *indwelling* of the Spirit of God aka Spirit of Christ aka Holy Spirit.
Stref: "To me in my experience the pruning of the branch is the repentance he leads me in. It is painless, (even if the sin i am repenting has me in a state of agony, which it still does) it is repentance without regret and it is leading me deeper in to himself."
I am not sure where you are coming from. Sin can cause pain and heartache and grief and therefore repentance is with tears because we have come face to face with the Holiness of God and we are struck to the core of our being with our unrighteousness due to our sin. That grieves me deeply.
Do you regret the things you have repented of, wishing at times you hadn't strayed or sinned or whatever? I think of things I have missed or done and wish it had been otherwise - I don't dwell on them - forgetting the things behind - but it serves as a reminder sometimes of what not to do, or what God has graciously brought me out of or through. This is His Amazing Love and Grace!
RE: What does it mean to bear fruit and what if you don't? - heb13-13 - 07-31-2009 04:35 PM
Being born-again is being indwelt by God's Holy Spirit. And the Holy Spirit leads us to put to death the deeds of the flesh and leads us into holiness and the bearing of good fruit. When people gather around only a part of the Word of God rather than the whole counsel of God (or no Word at all), they get tunnel vision. And they think they have all the light. They get a "Pharisaical" attitude that they have the "Light".
The "religious" structure they have built becomes an idol in their hearts and they cannot be led out of darkness because they will not receive any truth that conflicts with their doctrine.
This is exactly how an idol in someone's heart causes a veil to be over their face and it obscures God's truth. They do not have eyes to see, or ears to hear and they cannot understand God's Word.
The Lord told Ezekiel this:
Eze 14:3 Son of man, these men have set up their idols in their heart, and put the stumblingblock of their iniquity before their face: should I be enquired of at all by them?
The Pharisees loved their doctrines more than they loved Jesus when He came to them. The words that Jesus spoke found no place in their hearts because their religious structure had their hearts. If they had loved God and loved His Word, they would have received the whole counsel of God's Word and been led out of darkness.
John 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
They could not hear God's Word because their hearts had become hardened to God's Word by their continual resisting of it. They could not receive any new light because Jesus would not fit into their religious structure.
If you love fleshly traditions and carnal doctrines your heart becomes hardened and you resist God's Word. If Christ has all your heart, you will come to His Word and want to hear ALL OF IT. What other reason do men NOT come to GOD's Word? Precisely, if GOD does not have their HEART.
We are to look into the "perfect law of liberty", God's Word to compare ourselves. We are not to compare ourselves with other men, thereby justifying or excusing ourselves. God's Word is our STANDARD, not sitting back and judging whether there is anyone that really loves God or not.
The Word could not have any place in them, because God did not have their hearts. Notice how the Lord always keeps it personal with us. He never, ever lets us shift the blame for our present condition to anyone or anything else.
John 8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
The first order of business for producing good fruit is to turn from all of your idols and turn to Jesus Christ with YOUR WHOLE HEART.
Jesus is trying to lead us all out of darkness with new light. He said to the Pharisees, (John 8:40) But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
It is no different today. People's hearts are captured by carnal traditions and this causes them to run after fleshly lusts. They will hate everyone that brings new light contrary to their religious structure
2Co 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Joh 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Joh 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
As long as we love the evil deeds of the flesh, we shrink back from the light that is in Jesus, but if we love Him more than anything or anybody we will come to the Light.
Every time you read the Word you make a choice.
Either you will continue to love rebellion and walk after the flesh and the ways of Satan (BAD FRUIT) or you will come to the light. But when you come to Jesus and love Him and begin to love the ways of God you will walk in obedience and be perfected in holiness. This is GOOD FRUIT.
But if you have a STUBBORN heart you will shrink back from God's Word and continue to live and walk in the imaginations of your own heart. This produces BAD FRUIT.
Jer 13:10 This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.
Imagination of the heart = faulty thinking
The Nature of Satan - produces bad fruit
The Nature of Jesus - produces good fruit
Only the truth can FIX our FAULTY THINKING.
Joh 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
RE: What does it mean to bear fruit and what if you don't? - Vic - 07-31-2009 04:52 PM
Very well said, Rick! "Being born-again is being indwelt by God's Holy Spirit. And the Holy Spirit leads us to put to death the deeds of the flesh and leads us into holiness and the bearing of good fruit.
When people gather around only a part of the Word of God rather than the whole counsel of God (or no Word at all), they get tunnel vision."
Absolutely.
Romans 8:5-10 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
And when someone does not have the Holy Spirit, and yet is a critic of what it is to live for Christ....it can only lead to deception and error, and darkness. I have dealt with many who reject Christ, who tell me what the Bible 'really' means or what being a Christian really means....and it is ludicrous. Deceived and deceiving others. Without the Scriptures as our standard for Truth, anything can and will be called "of God." When it is fully deception.
"But if you have a STUBBORN heart you will shrink back from God's Word and continue to live and walk in the imaginations of your own heart. This produces BAD FRUIT.
Jer 13:10 This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.
Imagination of the heart = faulty thinking
The Nature of Satan - produces bad fruit
The Nature of Jesus - produces good fruit
Only the truth can FIX our FAULTY THINKING.
Joh 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. "
RE: What does it mean to bear fruit and what if you don't? - heb13-13 - 07-31-2009 09:38 PM
(07-31-2009 04:52 PM)Vic Wrote:
Imagination of the heart = faulty thinking
The Nature of Satan - produces bad fruit
The Nature of Jesus - produces good fruit
Only the truth can FIX our FAULTY THINKING.
Joh 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. "
Joh 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
Can we say that Jesus brings good fruit and abundant life?
Fruit of the Spirit.
Can we say that Satan brings bad fruit and destruction?
Works of the Flesh.
There is no such thing as bearing NO fruit. YOU WILL either bear GOOD fruit or BAD fruit. Where in the Bible is there any such thing that a man is neutral, no fruit. We all bring forth something.
Mat 12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
Good Fruit and Abundant Life or Bad Fruit and Destruction are our choices.
RE: What does it mean to bear fruit and what if you don't? - Emjesown - 08-01-2009 07:36 AM
The Nature of Satan - produces bad fruit
The Nature of Jesus - produces good fruit
This brings me to the following Question
What about people who show "good fruit"and don t believe in God and bible?
I know many unbelievers who behave better then many christians.
They are warm, always ready to help, do help indead in word and action.
Where does theyre fruit come from?
EMJE
RE: What does it mean to bear fruit and what if you don't? - Vic - 08-01-2009 12:14 PM
(08-01-2009 07:36 AM)Emjesown Wrote: The Nature of Satan - produces bad fruit
The Nature of Jesus - produces good fruit
This brings me to the following Question
What about people who show "good fruit"and don t believe in God and bible?
I know many unbelievers who behave better then many christians.
They are warm, always ready to help, do help indead in word and action.
Where does theyre fruit come from?
EMJE
It would be nice to think that nice people go to heaven. Unfortunately, no one can ever be nice enough or being good enough to make it on that 'fruit'. Because without believing Christ they are lost. Many people work really hard at being nice and good and kind. And yes, there are some who appear nicer that Christians--which is a sad statement, albeit true. We have no righteousness in ourselves that is good enough before God. Jesus is our righteousness.
I think these verses answer the question:
Romans 5:14-19 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. 15. But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. 16. And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. 17. For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) 18. Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Romans 3:22-23 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23. For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
RE: What does it mean to bear fruit and what if you don't? - heb13-13 - 08-01-2009 03:06 PM
Emje,
The Source of the fruit is what makes it good or bad. Not the nature of the fruit. We can be deceived by what we see.
Source = Holy Spirit or Satan (flesh nature is enmity with God)
Self-sufficiency says I can be a good person without God. That is bad fruit.
It is the TREE OF LIFE vs THE TREE of KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL.
People are eating from, or living off of one of these two trees, TODAY. The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil or the Tree of Life.
RE: What does it mean to bear fruit and what if you don't? - Vic - 08-03-2009 02:49 PM
In the parable of the sower we see that Jesus stated:
Matthew 13:18-23 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower. 19. When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side. 20. But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; 21. Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended. 22. He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful. 23. But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
I believe that the following teaching confirms that those whose seed fell in the thorns believed Christ and belonged to Him, but turned from Him, with the end result of verse 8, because they become unfruitful.
Hebrews 6:4-9 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5. And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6. If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. 7. For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: 8. But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned. 9. But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
Mat 3:10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Matthew 7:15-20 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17. Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.