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Prayer: how and how not? - Vic - 09-02-2009 05:28 PM

I noticed in another thread a discussion about prayer, and what is done by various groups.

So, what is prayer?

And what are we to pray or not pray for?

And can we pray in a manner that pleases and obeys God versus not?


Coffeebath


RE: Prayer: how and how not? - Emjesown - 09-03-2009 12:14 PM

(09-02-2009 05:28 PM)Vic Wrote:  I noticed in another thread a discussion about prayer, and what is done by various groups.

So, what is prayer?

And what are we to pray or not pray for?

And can we pray in a manner that pleases and obeys God versus not?


Coffeebath

Hi.......
Prayer for me is speaking to an with God
There is a difference in just talking en praising Him.
Both can be done in prayers tho.

Is there a good and a bad way?
hmmmm
For me a "bad"way is:
Giving God a wish-list
I did that in the beginning 22 years ago.....
God give ne this or that!!\
But soon i realised that God is no santaclaus.
He want's to be honored, be thanked en be a part of our life.
When our husbands come home
we also don t bombard him with what you want.....but you ask : How was your day, glad you are home etc.
How much more when we talk to God?
When we talk to God, we also have to wait for an answer, other wise its a one waytalk.

EMJE 2c2


RE: Prayer: how and how not? - Mary - 09-07-2009 01:51 AM

I am interested to study to answer this question, particularly since in the other thread the discussion there on prayer has left me somewhat confused. Before I begin my study I'll say what I know about prayer: I should pray to God our Father, in Jesus name. I should pray that God's will, be done. I should not be anxious for anything, but should pray and ask God for all my needs, I should be thankful and praise God for all my situations, and trust that I can do whatever is required of me, because He gives me strength. I should pray for my brothers and sisters in Christ, and for my family, and for the unsaved. I should pray for those in authority over me and for the peace of Jerusalem. I should pray morning, noon and night, and I should pray without ceasing. Because God cares for me, I can give Him all my cares - my loved ones, my troubles, my gifts, my strengths, my worries and fears, my hopes, my successes and my failures, and prayer is the way I communicate this to Him. When I am troubled and I have no words, the Holy Spirit intercedes for me - so I know God understands me. Prayer is between me and God, and I shouldn't make a public scene about it, and I don't need to mindlessly repeat myself, although I can and should persist with prayers until I get an answer. All my prayers should be with thanksgiving.
Who should we pray for?

1 Timothy 2 vs 1 -4 "I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.

Why?

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."

I notice that in this verse supplications, prayers intercessions and giving of thanks are separated, so it makes me ask "what is prayer, if it is other than supplications, intercessions and giving of thanks?"

I also note that God wants all men to be saved,and have knowledge of truth; and we should pray, supplicate, intercede and give thanks to God, because it is acceptable to Him as linked with His desire for all to be saved.
What should we pray for/about?

Phillipians 4:6

"Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God."

This tells me I should pray for and about everything that concerns me, and that I should express my thanks for whatever it is I am concerned about.


RE: Prayer: how and how not? - Mary - 09-07-2009 02:57 AM

where and how?

1 Timothy 2 vs 8

"I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting."

The "holy hands" intrigues me - I have thought about this before, but didn't really come to a conclusion. People of other beliefs pray with their hands palms together, fingers pointing upwards - as do Catholics and many Christians. When with other Christians and family, we hold hands when we pray - something I love to do. I hold my son's hand when I pray with him . What are holy hands?
We can pray anywhere and everywhere, we are not limited to church or temple buildings:

Acts 17, vs 24 - 25

"God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;"
this verse also says that He is not worshiped with men's hands, so I wonder if "holy" hands has something to do with "clean" hands as in suggesting spiritual cleanliness?
So how should I be when I come to God in prayer? What is the state of my heart and my relationship with Him? There is the verse about the "effective prayer" of the "righteous man" - so I must be righteous.

James 5 vs 16 "......The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much."

Psalm 34 vs 15 "The eyes of the LORD are upon the righteous, and his ears are open unto their cry."


RE: Prayer: how and how not? - sheep wrecked - 09-07-2009 07:35 PM

I apologize if I confused you. I think that we need to take the verses about prayer in context. What I see are people taking verses about prayer and applying them according to their own interpretation, or what they have been taught or read or assumed by talking to others. In the list that you provided, there are several concepts that I believe have been misapplied and misunderstood - they reflect teachings that are simply not in Scripture or no longer valid - ie: praying for the peace of Jerusalem [no longer valid].

After spending a lot of time in two different false religious movements that used prayer in a way that I call, "magic" and seeing how Christianity has used prayer in much the same way for the same reasons [the "power of prayer" concept], I began to look at Scripture differently. I don't see how most of what is applied to praying as we see in the Bible, is really what is stated.

For instance - the verse you quoted:


Jam 5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
Jam 5:15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
Jam 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.


Does that refer to a list of petitions to God? It appears that the text is referring to the confession/repentance of sin, which is always forgiven by those who are righteous [belong to God]. So how does this work it's way into a general premise for petitioning God? As we know, many righteous people pray for a lot of things that are not answered in the affirmative. If the prayer of the righteous is effectual, then the righteous should always receive everything they pray for. It just ain't so 2c2

Just to clarify my position, I look at the prayers that were actually prayed in the NT, which to me are Spirit led prayers that we should exemplify, not what we think we should be praying. They present a very different picture of how many Christians view prayer today - that is my concern and observation at this point in time.



RE: Prayer: how and how not? - Mary - 09-08-2009 06:30 PM

I don't believe that we should present a list to God, or that an affirmative "answer" is the only indication that the prayer has been heard. Sometimes, in my troubles/distress I come to God with my "solutions" - what I think will help and make things better, but what I really need to do is trust Him, and know that He will give me the strength and wisdom to get through, and to know that He is in control.

"Jam 5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
Jam 5:15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
Jam 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

Does that refer to a list of petitions to God? It appears that the text is referring to the confession/repentance of sin, which is always forgiven by those who are righteous [belong to God]. So how does this work it's way into a general premise for petitioning God? As we know, many righteous people pray for a lot of things that are not answered in the affirmative. If the prayer of the righteous is effectual, then the righteous should always receive everything they pray for. It just ain't so"

By not quoting the context of the verse (in this case or any of the others) I was not meaning to remove it from it's context, however I do think that without diminishing the context in any way, "The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much" is a comment on prayer and on us, that is generally applicable, but this is not to say that a prayer answered in the affirmative is effectual and a prayer answered in the negative or with a different answer is ineffectual.


RE: Prayer: how and how not? - sheep wrecked - 09-08-2009 09:13 PM

(09-08-2009 06:30 PM)Mary Wrote:  By not quoting the context of the verse (in this case or any of the others) I was not meaning to remove it from it's context, however I do think that without diminishing the context in any way, "The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much" is a comment on prayer and on us, that is generally applicable, but this is not to say that a prayer answered in the affirmative is effectual and a prayer answered in the negative or with a different answer is ineffectual.

Help me out here - what do you consider an effectual prayer? I am not quite sure I am understanding what you are trying to convey.

7143


RE: Prayer: how and how not? - Mary - 09-09-2009 02:46 AM

(09-08-2009 09:13 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote:  
(09-08-2009 06:30 PM)Mary Wrote:  By not quoting the context of the verse (in this case or any of the others) I was not meaning to remove it from it's context, however I do think that without diminishing the context in any way, "The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much" is a comment on prayer and on us, that is generally applicable, but this is not to say that a prayer answered in the affirmative is effectual and a prayer answered in the negative or with a different answer is ineffectual.

Help me out here - what do you consider an effectual prayer? I am not quite sure I am understanding what you are trying to convey.

7143

That wasn't a very clear sentence was it? Perhaps I should stay away from this forum while I'm not feeling wellSmiley-face-thumb

Let me try it again:
"the effectual, fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much". I think this applies to the context in which it is found, and to all prayer. To put it into other words: the productive, impassioned prayer of a righteous man, helps a great deal.

I think that all prayer is productive - effectual, but that does not mean that the answer (I) get is always affirmative (yes) or what (I ) want or hope for when I pray, but in trusting God, both the praying and the "answer" produce peace and strength to accept His will.



RE: Prayer: how and how not? - Mary - 09-09-2009 04:23 AM

(09-07-2009 07:35 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote:  I apologize if I confused you. I think that we need to take the verses about prayer in context. What I see are people taking verses about prayer and applying them according to their own interpretation, or what they have been taught or read or assumed by talking to others. In the list that you provided, there are several concepts that I believe have been misapplied and misunderstood - they reflect teachings that are simply not in Scripture or no longer valid - ie: praying for the peace of Jerusalem [no longer valid].

After spending a lot of time in two different false religious movements that used prayer in a way that I call, "magic" and seeing how Christianity has used prayer in much the same way for the same reasons [the "power of prayer" concept], I began to look at Scripture differently. I don't see how most of what is applied to praying as we see in the Bible, is really what is stated.

For instance - the verse you quoted:


Jam 5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
Jam 5:15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
Jam 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.


Does that refer to a list of petitions to God? It appears that the text is referring to the confession/repentance of sin, which is always forgiven by those who are righteous [belong to God]. So how does this work it's way into a general premise for petitioning God? As we know, many righteous people pray for a lot of things that are not answered in the affirmative. If the prayer of the righteous is effectual, then the righteous should always receive everything they pray for. It just ain't so 2c2

Just to clarify my position, I look at the prayers that were actually prayed in the NT, which to me are Spirit led prayers that we should exemplify, not what we think we should be praying. They present a very different picture of how many Christians view prayer today - that is my concern and observation at this point in time.

Why is praying for Jerusalem no longer valid, and why do you appear to equate righteous with "belong to God" ?


RE: Prayer: how and how not? - sheep wrecked - 09-09-2009 11:57 AM

(09-09-2009 04:23 AM)Mary Wrote:  Why is praying for Jerusalem no longer valid, and why do you appear to equate righteous with "belong to God" ?


Let me ask you what you think it means to pray for Jerusalem as stated in the Psalms compared to today?


Psa 122:1 <A Song of degrees of David.> I was glad when they said unto me, Let us go into the house of the LORD.
Psa 122:2 Our feet shall stand within thy gates, O Jerusalem.
Psa 122:3 Jerusalem is builded as a city that is compact together:
Psa 122:4 Whither the tribes go up, the tribes of the LORD, unto the testimony of Israel, to give thanks unto the name of the LORD.
Psa 122:5 For there are set thrones of judgment, the thrones of the house of David.
Psa 122:6 Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee.
Psa 122:7 Peace be within thy walls, and prosperity within thy palaces.
Psa 122:8 For my brethren and companions' sakes, I will now say, Peace be within thee.
Psa 122:9 Because of the house of the LORD our God I will seek thy good.


As a frame of reference - here is what Jesus said:

Mat 23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
Mat 23:30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
Mat 23:31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
Mat 23:32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
Mat 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Mat 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
Mat 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
Mat 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
Mat 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Joh 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
Joh 2:20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
Joh 2:21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
Joh 2:22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

Mat 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Luk 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
Luk 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.



Do you agree that only those who are in Christ are righteous [belong to God]?

1Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

Phi 1:11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.