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A Jewish Gospel? - sheep wrecked - 12-21-2008 07:18 PM
Most people who are in Hebrew Roots promote a “Hebraic mindset”, whereby one cannot fully comprehend the Bible unless one sees them through Hebrew “glasses”. To compound this issue, a new twist has surfaced: a “Jewish Gospel”.
Although it is clear in Scripture that Jesus came through His Jewish bloodline, and the Hebrew Scriptures of the Tanakh [OT] tell of His coming, His birth, sacrifice, and resurrection, Scripture also tells us that the Gospel is not based in “Jewishness”, but Jesus “slain before the foundation of the world”. In other words, the Gospel came from the mind and heart of God. He chose the Jewish nation as the “vehicle”, but the Gospel is not “Jewish” in understanding or acceptance. The Tanakh speaks of “how” He would come and “why” He came, but that does not make it “Jewish”.
Revelations 13:8 And all that dwell on the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
John 17:2 As you have given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as you have given him. 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
John states that Jesus is God made manifest in the flesh – the Word made flesh. He did not have a Jewish mindset. He is God. His wisdom and teachings were from the Father, not from a human system of understanding.
John 8:28 Then said Jesus to them, When you have lifted up the Son of man, then shall you know that I am He, and that I do nothing of myself; but as My Father has taught me, I speak these things.
John 15:15 From now on I call you not servants; for the servant knows not what his lord does: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of My Father I have made known to you.
John 17:7 Now they have known that all things whatever You have given Me are of You. 8 For I have given to them the words which You gave Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from You, and they have believed that You did send Me.
Going through Scripture, it’s interesting to note that a Jewish or Hebraic mindset is not different than any other culture. Sin is still sin. God made Himself known to Jew and Gentile alike. If the Gospel was truly “Jewish”, then the obvious question would be: Why didn’t Israel recognize their Messiah?
A follow up question is: Then how did the Jewish disciples and the non-Jewish gentiles understand the Gospel? The answer is in the NT:
Matthew 11:27 All things are delivered to Me of My Father: and no man knows the Son, but the Father; neither knows any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal Him.
John 6:32 Then Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but My Father gives you the true bread from heaven.
John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I to you, that no man can come to Me, except it were given to him of My Father.
John 8:38 I speak that which I have seen with My Father: and you do that which you have seen with your father. 39 They answered and said to him, Abraham is our father. Jesus said to them, If you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now you seek to kill Me, a man that has told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. 41 You do the deeds of your father. Then said they to Him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. 42 Jesus said to them, If God were your Father, you would love Me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of Myself, but He sent Me.
Exploring the Hebraic mind set in the Tanakh, working forward through the NT, post NT, and finally into the 20th century perhaps we can see exactly what it’s perceptions really are. Here is a "sampling".
In the Tanakh - some Hebraic mind set issues:
* Israel was given the "original" Hebraic mind set having heard God personally and given the Laws first hand - then they disobeyed and broke the covenant based on their Hebraic mind set.
* Israel's long and arduous history of evil kings - all born and bred of the Hebraic mind set. Jeroboam even changed the feast day of Tabernacles to a different month [oops].
* Solomon, the wisest man who ever lived - given measureless wisdom directly from God, in the culture of the Hebraic mind set. He gained many wives and concubines, and a vast fortune - he worshiped other gods and built altars to them. He ended up compromising even with a Hebraic mindset.
The NT:
First century Judaism did not recognize the Messiah.
* Judas Iscariot - full of the Hebraic mind set, believing that Jesus came as reigning King, but in his Hebraic mind set betrayed the Son of God for a few coins because he did not understand why Jesus really came - his concept of a Jewish Gospel was not God's plan.
* Peter didn’t get it when Jesus said He had to suffer and die, allowing satan to speak through him and refusing to accept the truth. Interesting how he understood that Jesus was the Christ via the Holy Spirit [Father in Heaven – not his Jewish mindset], but later when his Hebraic mindset kicked in, he stood against what Jesus needed to do.
* The disciples, trained personally by Jesus, did not understand any of His parables until Jesus revealed it to them, and told them that no one but them would “get it”. So much for the Hebraic mindset training since birth.
* The Pharisees plotted Jesus' death - steeped in Hebraic mind set.
* The Sadducees who did not believe in the resurrection - more of the Hebraic mind set.
* The Jews who tried to kill Jesus by stoning Him because through their Hebraic mind refused to recognize that He was God manifest in the flesh.
* The Sanhedrin - schooled in Hebraic mind set - succeeded in having Jesus crucified - obviously their Hebraic mind set was off that day.
* Paul, who was a Jewish scholar of scholars with Hebraic mind set, not accepting the “Jewish Gospel” - chased, arrested, and persecuted, hundreds of followers of Christ, and even consented to the deaths of some, before His conversion to the Holy Spirit mind set.
* Paul, who was a Hebrew of Hebrews had to correct much error in the Corinthian and the Galatian churches. Did he forget to teach them the Hebraic mindset first?
* When Paul presented the Gospel to the Geeks on Mars Hill, he simply presented Christ crucified and resurrected – there was no mention of a “Jewish” Gospel or a Hebraic mindset. [Acts 22:17+]
* John said that He wrote his Gospel so that all would know that Jesus was the Messiah, the Son of God – by the works and signs that Jesus did, not because His message was Hebraic or that the Kingdom of God was Jewish [John 20:30,31].
* On the Day of Pentecost the disciples spoke of the wonders of God in many languages as the Spirit gave them utterance - the "forerunner" of the Gospel that Peter preached. Perhaps they missed the newsflash on the Hebraic mind set.
* Paul told the jailer, when he asked what he should be do to be saved, told him that he should believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and he would be saved. Did Paul forget to mention that the jailer needed a Hebraic mindset or that the Gospel was Jewish?
* Jesus had some very interesting things to say about how the Pharisees thought:
Matthew 23
13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
Luke 11
44 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are as graves which appear not, and the men that walk over them are not aware of them.
Matthew 23
1 Then spoke Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
2 Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
3 All therefore whatever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do
not you after their works: for they say, and do not.
If the Pharisees had such a godly Hebraic mind set, I wonder why Jesus told them that all they had to offer anyone was hell? Not to mention that they constantly tried to trap Him with questions, and continually plotted His death. Reading Torah was not a spiritual endeavor for them, it was a forced rendition by the letter of the Law; and then taking the Law, twisting it, and making it an abomination before God. This was the 1st century "Hebraic mind set".
Beyond the NT - more Hebraic minded men:
* Rabbi Meir [Illuminator] or Reb Meir Ba'al Ha-Nes (literally Rabbi Meir Master of the Miracle) considered the greatest 2nd generation teacher of the Talmud. The name Meir was given to him because he enlightened the scholars and students in Torah Law. He also referred to himself as the "God of Meir - answer me" by which miracles allegedly happened. Thousands of Jews still pilgrimage to his grave to receive blessings for health and success. More Hebraic mindset.
* Moses DeLeon - 13th century - wrote [or uncovered the manuscripts in a cave] the book of the Zohar, which is the "ground work text" of kabbalah.
* Sabbatei Zevi [1600's] believed himself to be the Messiah. He eventually converted to Islam under duress. The Jewish gospel?
* Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson - a 20th Century Chassidic Rabbi - was believed to be the Messiah. He died in 1994. Many of his followers are still waiting for his resurrection. The Jewish gospel?
So, I am curious just which Hebraic/Jewish mind set I should be using to interpret the Scriptures?
Which Jewish skirt should I take hold of? Maybe the "Jew's skirt" belongs to Jesus?
Of the 15,000,000 Jews in the world, how many are believers - what percentage would that be?
Paul tells us in Romans 10 & 11
Romans 10
1 Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. 2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves to the righteousness of God.
Romans11
7 What then? Israel has not obtained that which he seeks for; but the election has obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 (According as it is written, God has given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) to this
day. 9 And David said, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumbling block, and a recompense to them: 10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back always.
The point is that the Word of God is timeless, eternal, infinite, ageless, and culture-less. It is a Living Word for the spiritual man, not based on man's intelligence, ethnicity, culture, language or gnostic interpretation, but by the work and will of the Holy Spirit.
The Word of God is so simple a child can understand it, and so complex that wise of this world cannot.
1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but to us which are saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. 20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. 22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: 23 But we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block, and to the Greeks foolishness; 24 But to them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. 25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
John 14:16,17,26 And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth Him not, neither knoweth Him: but ye know Him; for He dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in My Name, He shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
John 16:13 Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth: for He shall not speak of Himself; but whatsoever He shall hear, [that] shall He speak: and He will shew you things to come.
One last thought. In all the discussion on the Hebraic mindset we must remind ourselves that the authors of the Brit Chadashah [NT] while mostly Jews (except for the proselyte Luke) were also largely hellenized Jews. Hence many of the concepts found in the Brit Chadashah including the Logos, the primacy of Pnuema (Ruach) over Psuche (Nephesh) (actually derived from Platoian philosophy) and the charismata (Spiritual things/gifts) are derived not from eastern philosophy as is in the Tenakh but from the hellenistic philosophies of Plato, Socrates, and Aristotle. The reason is that these apostles were koine speaking hellenized Jews. The Hebraic mindset is a myth … scripture indicates only two mindsets – the natural man who is dead in Adam and the renewed mind of Messiah, which is alive in Jesus Christ.
Messianics and Hebrew Roots teachers want to promote a Hebraic mindset so that they can sell more books... but the only book we need is Davar Elohiym [The Bible], which is life itself. Some also promote kabbalah, based in the Jewish books of sefer zohar and billed as “Hebraic understanding” [ie: PaRDeS], which is nothing more than a pathway to hell through occultism.
Hebraic mindsest? A Jewish Gospel? God's final answer is "NO".
RE: A Jewish Gospel? - Emjesown - 12-21-2008 07:46 PM
WOW very good resume
EMJE
RE: A Jewish Gospel? - carl37 - 12-25-2008 05:20 PM
The first 15 years of the "Church" was the just the Jewish people. Constantine initiated what is now the modern day christian church. It is a known fact that early Jewish believers were forced to give up observing the feasts. If they didn't they were persecuted and driven underground.
RE: A Jewish Gospel? - Emjesown - 12-25-2008 05:56 PM
(12-25-2008 05:20 PM)carl37 Wrote: The first 15 years of the "Church" was the just the Jewish people. Constantine initiated what is now the modern day christian church. It is a known fact that early Jewish believers were forced to give up observing the feasts. If they didn't they were persecuted and driven underground.
And that should make the gospel jewish?
Jews are only the descendens of Judah.
Jesus said: i came bit for the lost sheep of israel.....all 12 tribes.
But even that fact does n t make the gospel jewish, not even israelisch.
I do see the jewishness of it all, Jesus coming from judea.......apostles to....even pauls by his coming from benjamin..jewish.
But when God made His plan of salvation, there was not a single jew around.
And until jacob got Judah there was not a single jew on earth.
The gospel is His story.....His life.
He died for all sinners, jews and gentiles.
Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Once saved.....gentiles don t become jews and once saved jews/israel don t become gentiles.
EMJE
RE: A Jewish Gospel? - sheep wrecked - 12-25-2008 06:12 PM
(12-25-2008 05:20 PM)carl37 Wrote: The first 15 years of the "Church" was the just the Jewish people. Constantine initiated what is now the modern day christian church. It is a known fact that early Jewish believers were forced to give up observing the feasts. If they didn't they were persecuted and driven underground.
Could you clarify a bit? Are you saying that the Gospel is only for the Jews? Who forced the Jews to "give up" the feasts? Do you believe that only the Jews were persecuted? What is your evidence that Constantine initiated the modern day church?
RE: A Jewish Gospel? - carl37 - 12-25-2008 07:31 PM
What I meant was that in the modern day "church" we seem to have hijacked the messiah. Anything that the Jewish people observed according to the Torah is not relevant. The Gospel is for anyone who would have ears to hear. No the Jews weren't the only ones persecuted. Modern day christianity came to be as a result of the council of Nicea which was called by Constantine. He also changed the day of rest. In the year 321 A.D., Constantine decreed, "On the venerable day of the Sun let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed". This is recorded history. I enjoy the forum very much.
RE: A Jewish Gospel? - sheep wrecked - 12-25-2008 08:05 PM
(12-25-2008 07:31 PM)carl37 Wrote: What I meant was that in the modern day "church" we seem to have hijacked the messiah. Anything that the Jewish people observed according to the Torah is not relevant. The Gospel is for anyone who would have ears to hear. No the Jews weren't the only ones persecuted. Modern day christianity came to be as a result of the council of Nicea which was called by Constantine. He also changed the day of rest. In the year 321 A.D., Constantine decreed, "On the venerable day of the Sun let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed". This is recorded history. I enjoy the forum very much.
I am trying to get a handle on your position. You stated that the church "hijacked" Jesus Christ. On the other hand, you state that the Gospel is for everyone. The "church" is the body of Christ [not organized religion - but all true believers in Jesus Christ]. The church is not an ethnic group, for there is neither Jew nor Greek ....... in Christ Jesus.
Christianity [followers of Jesus Christ] were gathering on the first day of the week to fellowship long before Constantine came into the picture. If one looks carefully at Acts, we see that the disciples got together every day of the week to worship, break bread, and then go to the Temple to witness.
My understanding of history is that the first day of the week was venerated because Jesus rose on that day, according to Scripture and therefore, to honor Him, Sunday was incorporated as the day of worship. I think Constantine gets a bad rap. He simply sealed what was already practiced and accepted within Christianity.
I am curious - if you think the Gospel "lost its Jewishness", then are you stating that God failed to preserve the Gospel as He chose? I often wonder if Messinanics really believe that God "lost" the Gospel along the way, when He promised to preserve His Word forever
RE: A Jewish Gospel? - carl37 - 12-25-2008 10:19 PM
Again I notice a pattern here that anything remotely concerning the Jewish people is mainly avoided like the plague. Yes you are right. They did gather on the first day of the week. They also gathered every day of the week. Nowhere in the scripture was it given to venerate Sunday. However the Almighty did venerate the Sabbath. Hmmm let's see here the Messiah rebuked the scribes and pharisees for making and following man-made traditions but what does the majority of the "church" do now? Observe pagan holidays and propagate falsehood concerning Sunday being the day of rest and all the other lies that I frankly don't want to take the time to mention. Great discussion though. Keep up the good work!!!!!
RE: A Jewish Gospel? - sheep wrecked - 12-25-2008 11:25 PM
(12-25-2008 10:19 PM)carl37 Wrote: Again I notice a pattern here that anything remotely concerning the Jewish people is mainly avoided like the plague. Yes you are right. They did gather on the first day of the week. They also gathered every day of the week. Nowhere in the scripture was it given to venerate Sunday. However the Almighty did venerate the Sabbath. Hmmm let's see here the Messiah rebuked the scribes and pharisees for making and following man-made traditions but what does the majority of the "church" do now? Observe pagan holidays and propagate falsehood concerning Sunday being the day of rest and all the other lies that I frankly don't want to take the time to mention. Great discussion though. Keep up the good work!!!!!
What you refer to as "Jewish" refers to the religion of the Jews - which is Judaism - a Talmudic religion based on Rabbis who interpreted Torah to their understanding, which is not Scripturally correct. They hold the Talmud as the ultimate authority over the Tanakh.
Paul stated, that no man should judge when to worship God or where. We are the temple of the Holy Spirit and we worship in Spirit and in Truth. Just because people choose a specific day to do that does not make them disobedient. We have our Sabbath rest in Christ Jesus, so it does not matter which day one chooses to gather with others, if they so choose to do that.
Let me reiterate - the OT is not "Jewish". It is God's story of Christ as pointed out through His chosen nation at that time. The story is not "Jewish or Hebraic". There is no ethnicity in the Word of God - it is cultureless and for every nation, tribe, and tongue. If the Tanakh is Jewish, then we should all avoid reading it, because it has nothing to say to gentiles or those outside of Judaism
RE: A Jewish Gospel? - carl37 - 12-25-2008 11:39 PM
Unfortunately I have to respectfully disagree. I am not referring at all to Judaism. I could be mistakenly leading you to assume that. I am referring to the Torah and the Prophets and the people in those times IE... Noah, David, Jeremiah, etc... Again I see the name of Paul. Didn't he say something about who is Paul and who is Apollos? What does Yahushua say about the Sabbath?