Are We Commanded to Observe the Mosaic Law [Torah]? - Printable Version
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Are We Commanded to Observe the Mosaic Law [Torah]? - sheep wrecked - 12-25-2008 03:18 PM
Doing a little "housekeeping" and moving some posts to this thread to keep other threads on topic! :star:
RE: Are We Commanded to Observe the Mosaic Law [Torah]? - sheep wrecked - 12-25-2008 03:28 PM
Re-posting Strefanash's post here [from the Hanukkah Thread] for better flow and to keep threads on topic
RE: Are We Commanded to Observe the Mosaic Law [Torah]? - sheep wrecked - 12-28-2008 03:13 PM
I moved my response to Carl from Keeping the Sabbath Tread ..........
I will go through your passages one by one and then comment after each one
(12-28-2008 02:01 PM)carl37 Wrote: Yehushua said:
Please note that what the young man did as far as obeying the Law was not enough. Jesus pointed out that to be perfect, he needed to do more that what the Law demanded. It was not keeping the Law that would give him treasure in Heaven.
Quote:Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
The Law still remains. It is a shadow that points to Christ and is included in the inspired Holy written Word of God. However; it was the old covenant, no longer valid under the New Covenant. The pharisees and scribes kept the Law letter perfect and got carried away adding superfluous commandments in order to perfect their perceived righteousness. We all know what Jesus thought of their righteousness - he condemned them to hell.
The word for commandments is entolay [G1785] not nomos which refers to Torah. Jesus gave lots of commandments that are not in Torah. We are to follow His Law or the Doctrine of Christ. Will touch on that more under the 1 John 2 passage.
Quote:Rom 2:12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.
If one reads the context of those verses, they are referring to the Jews as being under Torah, but when you get down to verse 24 which you omitted, it's obvious that Paul is not confirming keeping the law because the Jews can't and don't. He then states that Jew is not a Jew outwardly, but in the heart - referring not to being Jewish in the flesh, but circumcised in the heart.
Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
Rom 2:17 Behold, you are called a Jew, and rest in the law, and make your boast of God,
Rom 2:18 And know his will, and approve the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;
Rom 2:19 And are confident that you yourself are a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
Rom 2:20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which have the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.
Rom 2:21 You therefore which teach another, teach you not yourself? you that preach a man should not steal, do you steal?
Rom 2:22 You that say a man should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? you that abhor idols, do you commit sacrilege?
Rom 2:23 You that make your boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonor you God?
Rom 2:24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
Rom 2:25 For circumcision truly profits, if you keep the law: but if you be a breaker of the law, your circumcision is made uncircumcision.
Rom 2:26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
Rom 2:27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfill the law, judge you, who by the letter and circumcision do transgress the law?
Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Quote:Act 24:13 Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me.
If one is in Christ Jesus, they believe in all the law and the prophets. Not sure of your point here.
Quote:Act 25:7 And when he was come, the Jews which came down from Jerusalem stood round about, and laid many and grievous complaints against Paul, which they could not prove.
I am not sure how this proves that Paul observed Torah and kept all the Law. Verse 7 says that they laid out many complaints that were unprovable. As Paul stated he was a Jew to the Jews so that he might win them. In other words, he may have practiced the Law in some points to win them to Christ, not because he was observing the Law as a commandment. It is a well known fact that Paul did not keep Torah. He did not go up to Jerusalem 3 times a year as commanded, once for a 14 year period and for 3 years at another time. If he was bent on proving that Torah was to be kept, he would have made a point of going up to Jerusalem by example to the new converts. I find it interesting, that the Scriptures can be twisted to prove any theological view
Act 25:7 And when he was come, the Jews which came down from Jerusalem stood round about, and laid many and grievous complaints against Paul, which they could not prove.
The commandments that John is speaking of are those that Jesus gave - a new commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you and laid down My life for you. John also tells us that the command of Jesus is to believe on Him and to love our brothers, which is another way of reiterating Jesus two greatest commandments: Love God above all and your neighbor as yourself.
This is why His yoke is easy. There are no longer pages and pages of laws. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Jesus' teachings are full of how to treat others, filled with the love of God. This is the message that John spoke of. It's interesting to note that twice John refers to the signs that Jesus did as the greatest witness to Him, not keeping Torah, but living the Gospel.
Joh 20:30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
Joh 20:31 But these are written, that you might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you might have life through his name.
Joh 21:24 This is the disciple which testifies of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true.
Joh 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.
1Jo 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jo 2:4 He that said, I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jo 2:5 But whoever keeps his word, in him truly is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jo 2:6 He that said he stays in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
1Jo 2:7 Brothers, I write no new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which you have heard from the beginning.
1Jo 2:8 Again, a new commandment I write to you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shines.
1Jo 2:9 He that said he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness even until now.
1Jo 2:10 He that loves his brother stays in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
1Jo 2:11 But he that hates his brother is in darkness, and walks in darkness, and knows not where he goes, because that darkness has blinded his eyes.
1Jo 3:9 Whoever is born of God does not commit sin; for his seed remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jo 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whoever does not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loves not his brother.
1Jo 3:11 For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
1Jo 3:14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brothers. He that loves not his brother stays in death.
1Jo 3:15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer: and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
1Jo 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brothers.
1Jo 3:17 But whoever has this world's good, and sees his brother have need, and shuts up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwells the love of God in him?
1Jo 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
1Jo 3:19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.
1Jo 3:20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things.
1Jo 3:21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.
1Jo 3:22 And whatever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
1Jo 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
1Jo 3:24 And he that keeps his commandments dwells in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he stays in us, by the Spirit which he has given us.
Quote:Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
The word commandments here is again entolay, not nomos. This refers to the Law of Christ, which is explained above in the passages that John wrote.
The holy commandment [entolay] is belief in Christ, which is the Gospel and explained further in the John passages above
RE: Are We Commanded to Observe the Mosaic Law [Torah]? - DarkGlass1312 - 01-02-2009 06:50 PM
That was a huge reply. All I say was no. The only purpose of the Mosaic Law was to prepare for Christ to come and to gain a knowledge of sin. Grace would later enter in.
Romans 5:20 - Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
RE: Are We Commanded to Observe the Mosaic Law [Torah]? - strefanash - 01-03-2009 04:17 PM
WEll, yes, but if we make a legalism out of obeying the Holy Spirit we have put ourselves back under the Law and are back where we started.
This was how my own legalism developed to extreme, even to total legalism.
I thought that all sin was defiance of the Holy Spirit and that if i did not stop sinning he would damn me, not because i was breaking the law but i thought i was resisting the Holy Spirit directly. Well, yes I was yet not for the reasons i thought, however. But i thought it was up to me to stop, as in my fear i had lost all sense of His grace. So i became totally hemmed in by commandments. my response was of course wrong and i was utterly terrified because in this state any thought that God loved had gone, and only the expectation of wrath remained. I was wrong in this, and I was extreme in it, but the mindset that leads to this is quite common, even if many cannot follwoit consistently
If the Holy Spirit tells you to do something, and it is the Holy Spirit speaking (whether it is is another issue ::exclamation: ) if you dont want to do as he says, COME OUT WITH IT AND TELL HIM SO :exclamation: :exclamation: :exclamation:
I learned two things, the hard way : :ouch:
1/ that harsh demanding impulse was not the Holy
spirit. It was my own guilty conscience. Therefore in failing to act on it i was not resisting the Holy Spirit. Belief that I was had me fall to total despair for I thought i was blaspheming the Spirit
And I did fail to act because at the thought of beijng abolutely required to obey the voice of God, i seized up in terror and could do nothing,
2/ even if it is the Holy Spirit speaking, if you force yourself to act on it the force is counterfeit obedience. In fact we take God for an idiot for we think that he is pleased at our efforts as if he cannot see that they are bogus.
Besides, he may be telling you something not to have something done immediately, but to prompt you or me to admit the contrary sins in our own self so that our hearts would be renderd fit to obey the thing in the future.
You see I have a specific calling for ministry. I got it 25 years ago., And i am not ready.
IOW make a law out of obeying the Spirit rather than honestly admitting to Him your heart response to siuch a prompting is to make the call something hard.
Because the only reason we find it inwardly hard to do something (i spoeak not of external curcumstances, a highly motivated man would simply bowl through them) is because we do not want to do it and are forcing ourselves against our own heart.
His yoke is easy his comandmentrs are not burdensome, but forcing yourself to do even the very thing which is in christ is easy wil make it impossible, because of the state of the heart that forces it.
In liberty, joy and peace, because YOU want to do it. That is the biblical standard of obedience, and if we are not there, and I am not, the struggle is a total waste of time and effort
RE: Are We Commanded to Observe the Mosaic Law [Torah]? - Vic - 01-07-2009 12:44 PM
The following verses are used time and again by those within HR and Messianics who believe we are to keep the Law and keep Torah. They themselves claim to "Keep Torah".
Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
We know that it is impossible to keep the Law. Aside from Jesus fulfilling it, and being the final Sacrifice, there is no temple to make sacrifices, the priesthood is not there, people aren't making the journey to Israel three times a year and so on. So while pointing fingers at Christians and calling them anti-nomians and having a "lawless Jesus" or similar, they raise the battle cry of "we keep the law".
But they do not.
It merely takes a short reading of the Mosaic law to see time and again the law is not being kept by those claiming to keep it. In fact we see leadership saying they "try to keep it the best they can, the things that apply to them".
And they teach their followers that they don't actually have to keep it all because some things they just can't keep. Like stoning adulterers or false prophets... which might in fact, mean stoning them.
How can one say they keep the law and then make statements of excuse why they don't keep it all? You either keep it or you don't. It's like claiming to be a little bit pregnant. You either are or you aren't.
So they violate Jesus' teaching by teaching in fact, that not all the law has to be kept. Yet we also know that:
Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
Deu 27:26 Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen.
Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
So by claiming to keep the law when in fact they don't, they incur the curse associated with not keeping all of it.
(10) For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
(11) For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
Jesus also taught to beware the leaven of the Pharisees--which was hypocrisy. That concept also needs to be applied to those claiming we need to keep the law when in fact they do not, nor can they.
And to those who teach others to not keep all the law, while saying to keep it, Jesus said:
"Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven:
(10) For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
(11) But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
(12) And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
(13) Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
Verse 13 is why Christians don't pretend to keep the law or make claims we must keep it. We know we can't. That's why Christ died. Because no one could keep it. Hence God's promise of a new and better way.
RE: Are We Commanded to Observe the Mosaic Law [Torah]? - ceebee - 02-05-2009 08:25 AM
Thanks for this interesting discussion. I have been thinking of keeping the Jewish Feast Days as I read a really good site about how they point to Yahshua and the EndTimes prophesy.
I take it that as christians we keep the Ten Commandments as 'The Laws' that we have to keep and not the boggling 600 or so Mosaic Laws which were for the Jews and any Gentiles who converted to Judaism. Paul himself followed the Mosaic Law when he was in Jerusalem and shaved his head.
RE: Are We Commanded to Observe the Mosaic Law [Torah]? - sheep wrecked - 02-05-2009 03:32 PM
(02-05-2009 08:25 AM)ceebee Wrote: Thanks for this interesting discussion. I have been thinking of keeping the Jewish Feast Days as I read a really good site about how they point to Yahshua and the EndTimes prophesy.
I am curious why you would keep the Jewish Feast Days if you think that the the Law is not for Christians. If one has a road map [the OT] to point to Christ, then why go back to the beginning of the trip once you have arrived at your destination [Jesus]?
Secondly, Paul did not keep the Mosaic Law. The points that he observed were to win the Jews to Christ, but he was not Torah observant.
You may want to read through the threads in the Hebrew Roots Section to give you indepth information why we don't keep the feasts or the Law
ps: yahshua is not the Hebrew name of Jesus - it is a non-Hebrew, made up name that means nothing
RE: Are We Commanded to Observe the Mosaic Law [Torah]? - Rose of Shushan - 02-05-2009 09:45 PM
Welcome to the forum ceebee
glad you got stuck into posting straight away
Quote:Thanks for this interesting discussion. I have been thinking of keeping the Jewish Feast Days as I read a really good site about how they point to Yahshua and the EndTimes prophesy.
I have found that typically messianics teach that Jesus only fulfilled the Spring Feasts and that the Fall feasts will be fulfilled at his Second Coming.Is that what you are referring to?
If so check out some of the other threads that deal with this since we discussed it recently.Here is one of them
Jesus fulfilled all the feasts and teaching that atonement and tabernacles will be fulfilled at some later date seems totally misleading and contrary to what the NT teaches.
As to keeping the jewish feast days , well that would involve three yearly trips to Jerusalem and various sacrifices and offerings made by fire.Seeing as there is no Temple or priesthood that would accept your offerings , I'm not sure how you plan to keep them
RE: Are We Commanded to Observe the Mosaic Law [Torah]? - ceebee - 02-06-2009 03:22 AM
Thanks for the welcome Rose Yes I was referring to the Fall Feasts, thanks for the referral to read up on some posts.
I am trying to learn as much as possible and I have encountered such a lot of confusing advice about whether to keep 'The Sabbath' on Saturdays and other Sabbaths. I don't belong to any denomination/church as yet. I left the Church of England to look for a church that is bible led. I am not politically correct and certain elements of the C of E didn't seem in keeping with the bible. Sorry in advance if I have offended any Anglicans.