Re-posting Strefanash's post here [from the Hanukkah Thread] for better flow and to keep threads on topic

Quote:Quote:

Quote:Did not the Almighty say in Deuteronomy 4:40 that his commandments and statutes were to be observed forever?

Strefanash: well, yes. But do our efforts equal obedience to these? No.

Put it this way. In Isaiah 1 God says he is sick to death of the noise of their religious activity He askes in verse 12 "Who commanded of you this trampling of my courts?"

Well, you could say that HE DID. It is all in Moses. So what was God complaining about? As with typically religious people of all the ages they were there out of duty, and the mere fact of their dutifulness makes a mockery of what the Lord actually meant by the commandment. They necessarily, (given the nature of sin) were doing only the externals, and so totally missed the point.

And so have I, I begin to see after decades of fruitless struggle. But am i the only one in the church with this problem?

In doing the externals they, the people Isaiah spoke to, were still not obeying the commandment, and indeed their commitment to obey the commandment could ONLY produce externals. That is why as Jesus said the will of the flesh profits nothing.

He also said that if we were to enter the Kingdom that our righteousness would have to exceed that of the Pharisees. But of our efforts this can never happen for the Pharisees were the most determined of men. Our determination will not have us exceed the pharisees in righteousness, it will only have us equal them in sin. After all the prophet said there is none righteous

WE have NEVER obeyed the Law for our careless words (you know the passage?), being that by which we are judged, give the game away, for they show we never loved our neighbour therefore we never loved God.

And as the greatest commandment is to Love God but we never have, condemnation can only be the only result of our efforts and hypocrisy the very nature of our efforts.

The Law is good in what it commands, but not in what it produces

I moved my response to Carl from Keeping the Sabbath Tread ..........

I will go through your passages one by one and then comment after each one

(12-28-2008 02:01 PM)carl37 Wrote:  Yehushua said:

Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Mat 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Mat 19:19 Honour thy father and [thy] mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 19:20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go [and] sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come [and] follow me.

Quote:Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Quote:Paul said:

1Cr 7:19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God [is what matters].
1Cr 7:19 For it makes no difference whether or not a man has been circumcised. The important thing is to keep God's commandments.
1Cr 7:19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God's commands is what counts.

Quote:Rom 2:12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.
Rom 2:13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.
Rom 7:22 For in my inner being I delight in God's law;
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Quote:Act 24:13 Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me.
Act 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

Quote:Act 25:7 And when he was come, the Jews which came down from Jerusalem stood round about, and laid many and grievous complaints against Paul, which they could not prove.
Act 25:8 While he answered for himself, Neither against the law of the Jews, neither against the temple, nor yet against Caesar, have I offended any thing at all.
Act 25:9 But Festus, willing to do the Jews a pleasure, answered Paul, and said, Wilt thou go up to Jerusalem, and there be judged of these things before me?
Act 25:10 Then said Paul, I stand at Caesar's judgment seat, where I ought to be judged: to the Jews have I done no wrong, as thou very well knowest.

I am not sure how this proves that Paul observed Torah and kept all the Law. Verse 7 says that they laid out many complaints that were unprovable. As Paul stated he was a Jew to the Jews so that he might win them. In other words, he may have practiced the Law in some points to win them to Christ, not because he was observing the Law as a commandment. It is a well known fact that Paul did not keep Torah. He did not go up to Jerusalem 3 times a year as commanded, once for a 14 year period and for 3 years at another time. If he was bent on proving that Torah was to be kept, he would have made a point of going up to Jerusalem by example to the new converts. I find it interesting, that the Scriptures can be twisted to prove any theological view

Quote:John says:

Jhn 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law

1Jo 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jo 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jo 2:3 And how can we be sure that we belong to him? By obeying his commandments.
1Jo 2:4 If someone says, "I belong to God," but doesn't obey God's commandments, that person is a liar and does not live in the truth.

Quote:Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rev 22:14 Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, [fn] so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates.
(22:14) Some manuscripts do his commandments

Quote:Peter says:

2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known [it], to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

The holy commandment [entolay] is belief in Christ, which is the Gospel and explained further in the John passages above

(01-02-2009 06:50 PM)DarkGlass1312 Wrote:  That was a huge reply. All I say was no.

We know that it is impossible to keep the Law. Aside from Jesus fulfilling it, and being the final Sacrifice, there is no temple to make sacrifices, the priesthood is not there, people aren't making the journey to Israel three times a year and so on. So while pointing fingers at Christians and calling them anti-nomians and having a "lawless Jesus" or similar, they raise the battle cry of "we keep the law".

But they do not.

It merely takes a short reading of the Mosaic law to see time and again the law is not being kept by those claiming to keep it. In fact we see leadership saying they "try to keep it the best they can, the things that apply to them".

And they teach their followers that they don't actually have to keep it all because some things they just can't keep. Like stoning adulterers or false prophets... which might in fact, mean stoning them.

How can one say they keep the law and then make statements of excuse why they don't keep it all? You either keep it or you don't. It's like claiming to be a little bit pregnant. You either are or you aren't.

So they violate Jesus' teaching by teaching in fact, that not all the law has to be kept. Yet we also know that:

(02-05-2009 08:25 AM)ceebee Wrote:  Thanks for this interesting discussion. I have been thinking of keeping the Jewish Feast Days as I read a really good site about how they point to Yahshua and the EndTimes prophesy.

I take it that as christians we keep the Ten Commandments as 'The Laws' that we have to keep and not the boggling 600 or so Mosaic Laws which were for the Jews and any Gentiles who converted to Judaism. Paul himself followed the Mosaic Law when he was in Jerusalem and shaved his head.

ceebee

I am curious why you would keep the Jewish Feast Days if you think that the the Law is not for Christians. If one has a road map [the OT] to point to Christ, then why go back to the beginning of the trip once you have arrived at your destination [Jesus]?

Secondly, Paul did not keep the Mosaic Law. The points that he observed were to win the Jews to Christ, but he was not Torah observant.

You may want to read through the threads in the Hebrew Roots Section to give you indepth information why we don't keep the feasts or the Law

ps: yahshua is not the Hebrew name of Jesus - it is a non-Hebrew, made up name that means nothing

Welcome to the forum ceebee
glad you got stuck into posting straight away

Quote:Thanks for this interesting discussion. I have been thinking of keeping the Jewish Feast Days as I read a really good site about how they point to Yahshua and the EndTimes prophesy.

I have found that typically messianics teach that Jesus only fulfilled the Spring Feasts and that the Fall feasts will be fulfilled at his Second Coming.Is that what you are referring to?
If so check out some of the other threads that deal with this since we discussed it recently.Here is one of them
http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.php?tid=63

Jesus fulfilled all the feasts and teaching that atonement and tabernacles will be fulfilled at some later date seems totally misleading and contrary to what the NT teaches.

As to keeping the jewish feast days , well that would involve three yearly trips to Jerusalem and various sacrifices and offerings made by fire.Seeing as there is no Temple or priesthood that would accept your offerings , I'm not sure how you plan to keep them