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RE: Is Easter Pagan? - sari83 - 04-22-2011 11:29 PM
(04-22-2011 12:54 AM)Vic Wrote: Sarah putting two natural things together is not pagan. Putting dye on something is not pagan. God had Israel dye things. Look it up. If I dye cotton, which is not naturally anything but white, I am not entering into a pagan practice am I? If dye is added to a food, is it a pagan practice? If you boil an egg with onion skins and it turns color---is that a pagan practice?
I think you are saying that it is not the action itself. but the intentions behind the actions that really matter, yes?
(04-22-2011 12:54 AM)Vic Wrote: Would you suggest Christians boycott all places in the world that show an image of a cartoon bunny or easter eggs, let alone sell bunnies or chicks or colored eggs at easter? How about if they decide they just won't purchase those items. Many don't. It's a choice. A total free choice.
That may be a step in cutting back on all the commercialism and support of corporate greed.
You're right though, it is a choice.(04-22-2011 12:54 AM)Vic Wrote: You have totally missed everything I have said. I have no interest in those things. Did you catch that. I have no interest in them. Don't even buy chocolate eggs or bunnies. Don't color eggs. But. I will not allow the false accusation aimed at Christians that do find a freedom to eat a chocolate or color eggs in a way that proclaims Jesus Christ or whatever uses they have for those things; to be accused of worshipping or participating in a pagan practice related to the worship of a non existent god. Christians worship God. THey follow Jesus Christ and we are to have the mind of Christ--about all things. If Christians want to make a celebration alongside the most incredible event in history, the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ and the gift of salvation for all mankind, and make it also a time for family and children to learn these things through simple games or activities, that is something believers have the freedom to do. It's totally a God given choice because Christians know, just as Paul said, there are no idols aka gods to give sacrifice to. You have spent most of the time in this discussion focusing on paganism, not Christ. You have spent all this time accusing Christians of being pagan. Paganism abounds in the world, all around believers, Sarah. Probably it was never so real as to those who lived during the time of Christ and after, with the Romans and Greeks and their paganism. But Christians proclaimed and pointed to Christ in all they did. Even with painted eggs. [/b][/color][color=#9400D3]
I don't see it as accusing Christians of being pagan. I know many people who celebrate Easter, and I do not think they are pagans. I know that Christians believe in the one true God. I completely see your perspective. I'm pretty sure my friends that are celebrating Easter with the whole bunny story and dying eggs are not doing that with the intentions of worshipping a false god. I know that.
My intentions were to discuss the origins, and at the same time I was researching and learning new things too. The times have changed very much. Mankind has made many advancements in all areas of life. Christianity has by large brought the knowledge of the one God who created all things to many places world wide.
Paganism was originally defined as the practices of polytheistic religions. However, modern paganism would likely be defined as a higher reverance for nature. I'm having difficulty grasping that we are free to worship Him how we choose. In the Old Testament religious assimilation didn't seem to be an acceptable practice. Has this changed in the New Covenant?
(04-22-2011 09:22 AM)Rose of Shushan Wrote: Please LOL..Sari now I think you're either pulling our legs or have the bunny confused with a santa claus who supposedly visits the home of kids down a chimney or something.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter_Bunny
"The Easter Bunny or Easter Hare (sometimes Spring Bunny in the U.S.[is a character depicted as a rabbit bringing Easter eggs, who sometimes is depicted with clothes. In legend, the creature brings baskets filled with colored eggs, candy and sometimes also toys to the homes of children, and as such is shows similarities to Father Christmas, as they both bring gifts to children on the night before their respective holiday. It was first mentioned in Georg Franck von Frankenau's De ovis paschalibus (About the Easter Egg) referring to an Alsace tradition of an Easter Hare bringing Easter Eggs (and the negative impact of too much egg consumption)."
http://www.clarkedailynews.com/the-meanings-of-easter/19842/
"The arrival of the “Oster Hawse”, the German term for the Easter Bunny, was considered one of childhood’s greatest pleasures, similar to the arrival of Kris Kringle on Christmas Eve. According to the tradition, children would build brightly colored nests, often made from caps and bonnets, to secret areas of the home. The “Oster Hawse” would then lay brightly colored eggs in the nest provided that the children had been good throughout the previous year."
RE: Is Easter Pagan? - sari83 - 04-23-2011 12:42 AM
(04-22-2011 09:44 AM)Rose of Shushan Wrote: So when I give time to look after my son with immense love and affection am I worshipping him? Or when I spend a lot of time and care crocheting a beautiful garment and then admiring it I am worshipping it? Your definition of worship sounds a bit off.
No, I did say objects or things can become idols. Also, giving supernatural powers to an object/thing would be classified as creating an idol. Recently, a local church was selling (for an exchange of a donation) prayer quilts. It alleged that if a person prays while kneeling on the quilt, their prayers will be answered. As well as, teaching children that a bunny, fairy, man in red suit, etc. has the powers to magically bring them gifts is in a sense creating an idol.
(04-22-2011 09:44 AM)Rose of Shushan Wrote: I am reminded of the custom amongst some sephardi to decorate eggs at Passover(and shabbat or for special occasions).The process is indistinguishable from the way some people decorate their easter eggs.If you don't believe me check out this link they look very pretty
http://www.theatlantic.com/life/archive/10/04/eastern_europes_easter_eggs_jewish/38253/
There have also been customs of decorating eggs for Purim.I wil paste from the following link http://ohr.edu/ask_db/ask_main.php/241/Q3/
where a reader enquires about the origins of a custom of paining eggs on Lag B'omer and is worried it may be pagan.The reply went as follows
I asked your question to Rabbi Eliezar Demari of Jerusalem. (His parents came to Israel from Yemen in 1949.) Rabbi Demari said that in Yemen, the Jews painted eggs in honor of Purim. They sent these eggs to friends as mishloach manot gifts and ate them at the festive Purim meal. The Jewish community in Yemen was isolated for centuries, and they can trace many of their customs back to the time of the First Temple, so it's clear that they didn't adopt this practice from any other culture.
Rabbi Demari also noted that it's conceivable that egg-painting was a custom among European Jews, and that they stopped doing so when it was adopted by other religions. We see the same concept regarding a stone altar: Although Abraham, Isaac and Jacob made stone altars, the Torah later forbade making them because the pagans had begun making stone altars for idol worship. Thus, we see that a "kosher" custom gets spoiled when it becomes a pagan custom. Isn't that interesting? So now we have a chicken and egg(pun intended) situation.
Could it be that christians borrowed some of the eggy customs from jews?
Some historical studies note that the Jewish Purim and the Persian New Year (Nowruz) share similarities. Coincidentally, painted eggs is a tradition common for Nowruz.
RE: Is Easter Pagan? - Vic - 04-23-2011 01:07 PM
(04-22-2011 11:29 PM)sari83 Wrote: [quote='Vic' pid='7326' dateline='1303448044']
Sarah putting two natural things together is not pagan. Putting dye on something is not pagan. God had Israel dye things. Look it up. If I dye cotton, which is not naturally anything but white, I am not entering into a pagan practice am I? If dye is added to a food, is it a pagan practice? If you boil an egg with onion skins and it turns color---is that a pagan practice?
Quote:I think you are saying that it is not the action itself. but the intentions behind the actions that really matter, yes?
Yes Sarah. Each of those actions/activities is benign spiritually. They are just actions or activities. For Christians, all that we do is supposed to be for the honor and glory of God. Therefore, if I color an egg, it is in no way in my mind whatsoever that I am doing it or have the intent to worship or follow some perceived pagan practice which involved worship of non-existant false gods in the first place. In fact, in looking at that issue, Christians that actually do color eggs, make it a way to share the Gospel, and as an activity for children to understand the cross, Christ dying etc. I have never done that, but for some they see it as a means to present those Truths.
Col 3:17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.
Quote:That may be a step in cutting back on all the commercialism and support of corporate greed.
Yes but somehow I think the world kind of likes the profits.... Quote:I don't see it as accusing Christians of being pagan. I know many people who celebrate Easter, and I do not think they are pagans.
>>>I am glad Sarah. But unfortunately in your presentation of it, the same issues came through that permeate Hebrew Roots (and others) false accusations about these and many other exact same things. I didn't even get into the pagan words issue on this....the ishtar, tammuz etc...Christians don't even think in those terms because what they do is centered on Christ. Those things don't exist to them.
Quote:I know that Christians believe in the one true God. I completely see your perspective. I'm pretty sure my friends that are celebrating Easter with the whole bunny story and dying eggs are not doing that with the intentions of worshipping a false god. I know that.
>>If Christians perpetuate the myths of the bunny they need to reconsider that. Just as promoting santa claus as the myth and arriving and bringing presents isn't based on Truth. Those things are issues because it overturns Scriptures. Do you understand what I am saying in that.
If I color an egg and present it as pertaining to Christ, there is nothing wrong with that, because it honors Christ. But, if I tell my children that the easter bunny is real and brings things to children or whatever the myth is, and present it as truth, I am at fault. That's the difference, Sarah. If I look at the bunny and commercial stuff downtown and all I see is a cartoon rabbit, etc, whereby it means nothing to me, but a custom of the world--and most in the world view it as a secular holiday,-- it's just one of those things to me. I think most in the world view it as a fable/lie/story, not something 'real', even though they might tell small children it's real. That's why we are to have nothing to do with fables and old wives tales, because we are to speak truth always.
Quote:My intentions were to discuss the origins, and at the same time I was researching and learning new things too. The times have changed very much. Mankind has made many advancements in all areas of life. Christianity has by large brought the knowledge of the one God who created all things to many places world wide.
>>>It's actually more than that, I think. Jesus said that the Gospel would be proclaimed and published throughout the world. I believe the knowledge of Christ that is known because of this public declaration and others and celebration is part of that fulfillment.
Mar 13:10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations.
Published means proclaimed to all the nations. The Truth of Jesus crucified and risen and why is being proclaimed to all the world. What an incredible thing that is.
Quote:Paganism was originally defined as the practices of polytheistic religions. However, modern paganism would likely be defined as a higher reverance for nature. I'm having difficulty grasping that we are free to worship Him how we choose. In the Old Testament religious assimilation didn't seem to be an acceptable practice. Has this changed in the New Covenant?
Paganism can also be defined as any religious practices outside of Christianity. Depends how and who is defining it and for what purpose. But yes, nature worship, but if you look at pagan websites, they vary as to focus but they like the myths and legends and whatever god/goddess that appeals to them. Being that it is all false and superstition because we know there are no gods but God.
Keep in mind Israel was taken out from among pagans and yet they repeatedly went after other gods and participated in pagan rituals, images etc. It's not exactly free to do whatever we choose, because there are some things we shouldn't do. We are not going to go to a Shinto shrine as some are wont to do and pray. That falls under the issue of those who give to the idols etc. and would violate these scriptures:
2Co 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
2Co 6:15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
2Co 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
2Co 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
Act 21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.
And as Paul cautioned:
1Co 8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.
1Co 8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
1Co 8:7 Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.
1Co 8:9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.
1Co 8:10 For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;
IN other words, we aren't going to be involved with a religious ritual where the people are actually praying to, sacrificing to or observing their false god. We aren't going to their groves or shrines or temples to participate in their religious practices with them, even though we know it's empty superstition. We aren't going to go into a religious pagan celebration like bacchus, and be part of that.
But, we can witness to those people. Just as Paul did at Mars hill. And if I go to the little valley I go to sometimes run my dog, and I sit and watch the sunrise and contemplate the beauty God has created, and pray and thank HIm for all that and more, and thank Him for the changing seasons, while facing east or west to watch a sunset, I am not doing anything pagan. I am showing my love and thankfulness to my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
RE: Is Easter Pagan? - Vic - 04-23-2011 01:28 PM
(04-23-2011 12:42 AM)sari83 Wrote: No, I did say objects or things can become idols. Also, giving supernatural powers to an object/thing would be classified as creating an idol. Recently, a local church was selling (for an exchange of a donation) prayer quilts. It alleged that if a person prays while kneeling on the quilt, their prayers will be answered. As well as, teaching children that a bunny, fairy, man in red suit, etc. has the powers to magically bring them gifts is in a sense creating an idol.
Now Sarah, you have it right. Now you are saying what matters to believers. People can become idols also, just look at some of the leadership worldwide, political or religious. However what you really are correct in, is the issue of the 'prayer quilt'. See, that is taking something supposedly for God and turning it into pagan superstition. And that is what needs to be trounced. Making something of Christ pagan. Making prayer a superstition. It's making the prayer quilt a talisman.
Who answers prayer? and is it dependent on how we stand, sit, kneel or lay? does it depend on where we are? Can an object assure us that our prayers will be answered?
Mat 6:5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
Mat 6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
Mat 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
Mat 6:8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.
Jas 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
Jas 1:6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
Jas 1:7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
Jas 1:8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.
These types of things are the things that make false doctrine, and permeate the lives of Christians, and which fall under the banner of Christianity but are not of Christ. These are the things that corrupt and change the Word of God, so people do not know the Truth. These are the things that must be refuted because they are foundational for living for Christ. There's so much that falls into place if we understand things like this.
Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
Eph 6:18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
Col 4:2 Continue in prayer, and watch in the same with thanksgiving;
Col 4:5 Walk in wisdom toward them that are without, redeeming the time.
Col 4:6 Let your speech be alway with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man.
RE: Is Easter Pagan? - Mary - 04-23-2011 04:43 PM
Luke 24
1Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.
2And they found the stone rolled away from the sepulchre.
3And they entered in, and found not the body of the Lord Jesus.
4And it came to pass, as they were much perplexed thereabout, behold, two men stood by them in shining garments:
5And as they were afraid, and bowed down their faces to the earth, they said unto them, Why seek ye the living among the dead?
6He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee,
7Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.
8And they remembered his words,
9And returned from the sepulchre, and told all these things unto the eleven, and to all the rest.
10It was Mary Magdalene and Joanna, and Mary the mother of James, and other women that were with them, which told these things unto the apostles.
11And their words seemed to them as idle tales, and they believed them not.
12Then arose Peter, and ran unto the sepulchre; and stooping down, he beheld the linen clothes laid by themselves, and departed, wondering in himself at that which was come to pass.
RE: Is Easter Pagan? - Vic - 04-23-2011 06:19 PM
(04-23-2011 04:43 PM)Mary Wrote: Luke 24
1Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.
2And they found the stone rolled away from the sepulchre.
3And they entered in, and found not the body of the Lord Jesus.
4And it came to pass, as they were much perplexed thereabout, behold, two men stood by them in shining garments:
5And as they were afraid, and bowed down their faces to the earth, they said unto them, Why seek ye the living among the dead?
6He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee,
7Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.
8And they remembered his words,
9And returned from the sepulchre, and told all these things unto the eleven, and to all the rest.
10It was Mary Magdalene and Joanna, and Mary the mother of James, and other women that were with them, which told these things unto the apostles.
11And their words seemed to them as idle tales, and they believed them not.
12Then arose Peter, and ran unto the sepulchre; and stooping down, he beheld the linen clothes laid by themselves, and departed, wondering in himself at that which was come to pass.
RE: Is Easter Pagan? - Rose of Shushan - 04-24-2011 09:43 AM
Happy Easter/Resurrection day everyone
Oh the joy of the disciples, His mother and the women that were so dear to Him.
Luk 24:33 And they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together, and them that were with them,
Luk 24:34 Saying, The Lord is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon.
Luk 24:35 And they told what things were done in the way, and how he was known of them in breaking of bread.
Luk 24:36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
Luk 24:37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
Luk 24:38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
Luk 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
Luk 24:40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
Luk 24:41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
Luk 24:42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
Luk 24:43 And he took it, and did eat before them.
Luk 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
Luk 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
Luk 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
Luk 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
RE: Is Easter Pagan? - YYZ Skinhead - 04-24-2011 03:30 PM
(04-24-2011 09:43 AM)Rose of Shushan Wrote: Happy Easter/Resurrection day everyone
Oh the joy of the disciples, His mother and the women that were so dear to Him.
Luk 24:41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
Luk 24:42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
Luk 24:43 And he took it, and did eat before them.
Well, at least there is a Scriptural example of a Resurrection Day feast.
I will partake as well of one of God's greatest blessings to man: chocolate, a whole lot of chocolate.
Psst...Rose... - YYZ Skinhead - 04-24-2011 09:44 PM
Rose, I thought that passage was so cool I told my aunt about it and we read it after my family said grace and before we ate.
RE: Is Easter Pagan? - Rose of Shushan - 04-24-2011 10:01 PM
Aw
I do love that passage so too.It never fails to thrill me to read it.Their mourning was turned into joy and a double joy because of the wonder of the Resurrection.
I thought your comment about the example of the Easter Day Feast was really funny LOL