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RE: The Messiah..born of a virgin... - Rose of Shushan - 05-11-2011 01:57 PM
Quote:I haven't found a verse where seed (#2233 Zera) is used in a spiritual sense.I found some
Isa 1:4 Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the LORD, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward.
Isa 14:20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.
Isa 57:4 Against whom do ye sport yourselves? against whom make ye a wide mouth, and draw out the tongue? are ye not children of transgression, a seed of falsehood,
then in regard to sowing in a spiritual sense
Hos 10:12 Sow to yourselves in righteousness, reap in mercy; break up your fallow ground: for it is time to seek the LORD, till he come and rain righteousness upon you.
Hos 10:13 Ye have plowed wickedness, ye have reaped iniquity; ye have eaten the fruit of lies: because thou didst trust in thy way, in the multitude of thy mighty men.
Quote:There is at least one other time where it's used in reference to a woman:
Gen 16:8-10
And he said, Hagar, Sarai's maid, whence camest thou? and whither wilt thou go? And she said, I flee from the face of my mistress Sarai.
9 And the angel of the Lord said unto her, Return to thy mistress, and submit thyself under her hands.
10 And the angel of the Lord said unto her, I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude.
KJV
Well think about it, by referring to her seed it differentiates from Abraham's seed right?
If we are going to go by just ascribing a literal meaning to the word seed then the promise made to Abraham's seed would have included ALL of Abraham's literal seed..thus including the children by Abraham's various wives and concubines.
However we know the seed of promise was through Isaac and not Ishmael right?
RE: The Messiah..born of a virgin... - Vic - 05-11-2011 02:33 PM
(05-11-2011 10:23 AM)sari83 Wrote: Was a virgin birth part of the criteria for the Messiah?
When John sends a message inquiring as to whether Jesus is the one, He answers John with specific actions that signal He is the Messiah.
Matt 11:3-5
And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?
4 Jesus answered and said unto them, Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see:
5 The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.KJV
I haven't found a verse where seed (#2233 Zera) is used in a spiritual sense.
But-There is at least one other time where it's used in reference to a woman: Gen 16:8-KJV
Sarah, as has been shown to you, the virgin birth in Isaiah 7:14, was not the only prophecy given concerning the coming Messiah, but as both Joseph and Mary received the fulfillment of that prophecy in what they were told by the angel in the Gospels concerning Jesus, and then the overshadowing of Mary. The word almah was proven to be used for virgin, specifically by example in the passage regarding none other than Rebekah. A fitting example. That you cannot receive that information because of unbelief is clear. But it does not change the Scriptural facts.
John was enquiring because he heard of the works of Christ while in prison, although John already knew who he was:
Mat 11:2 Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples,
Mat 3:1 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,
Mat 3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mat 3:3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight
Isa 40:3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
Mal 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
Mal 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
Mal 4:6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.
Mat 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
Mat 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
Mat 3:10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
Mat 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
Mat 3:13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.
Mat 3:14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
Mat 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
Mat 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
Mat 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Joh 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
Joh 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
Joh 1:8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
Joh 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Jesus could very well have started with Genesis 1:1 to present all Scriptures and prophecies that pertained to Himself.
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Joh 1:15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
Joh 1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
Joh 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
Joh 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
Joh 1:30 This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: [b]for he was before me.
Joh 1:31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.
Joh 1:32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
Joh 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
Joh 1:34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.
Joh 1:35 Again the next day after John stood, and two of his disciples;
Joh 1:36 And looking upon Jesus as he walked,[b] he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!
Luk 3:4 As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
Luk 3:5 Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth;
Luk 3:6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.
Isa 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
John asked the question according to God's purposes, just as various people were healed according to God's purposes. Because Jesus was not just answering him, but teaching the multitudes who he was surrounded by and hearing that interaction, and for the later written record which is true as found in the Scriptures:
Mat 11:4 Jesus answered and said unto them, Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see:
Mat 11:5 The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.
Mat 11:6 And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.
Mat 11:7 And as they departed, Jesus began to say unto the multitudes concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken with the wind?
Mat 11:8 But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft raiment? behold, they that wear soft clothing are in kings' houses.
Mat 11:9 But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? yea, I say unto you, and more than a prophet.
Mat 11:10 For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
Mat 11:11 Verily I say unto you, [b]Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist:[/b] notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
Mat 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
Mat 11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
Mat 11:14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.
Mat 11:15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Mat 11:16 But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows,
Mat 11:17 And saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned unto you, and ye have not lamented.
Mat 11:18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil.
Mat 11:19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.
Mat 11:20 Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not:
...Mat 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
Mat 11:26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.
Mat 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
Mat 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
Notice, that Jesus is declared by John to have been before him, and we know that Elizabeth was 6 mths pregant with John when Mary was first told by the angel. Yet John declared Jesus as being before him. Why? because it fits with all the other prophecies concerning Who Jesus IS.
One merely has to start reviewing the many verses in reference to promises of healing the blind,etc and God's promised Salvation etc. For example-and these are merely examples, and not all that could apply:
blind: Mat_9:30; Psa_146:8; Isa_29:18, Isa_35:4-6, Isa_42:6-7; Luk_4:18, Luk_7:21-22; Joh_2:23, Joh_3:2, Joh_5:36, Joh_10:25, Joh_10:38, Joh_14:11-12; Act_2:22, Act_4:9-10
the lame: Mat_15:30-31, Mat_21:14; Act_3:2-8, Act_14:8-10
the lepers: Mat_8:1-4, Mat_10:8; 2Ki_5:7, 2Ki_5:14
the deaf: Isa_43:8; Mar_7:37, Mar_9:25
the dead: Mat_9:24-25; Luk_7:14-16, Luk_7:22; Joh_11:43-44
the poor: Mat_5:3; Psa_22:26, Psa_72:12-13; Isa_61:1-3, Isa_66:2; Zec_11:7; Luk_4:18; Jam_2:5 [/b]
Throughout the Scriptures are the declarations of God's promise of Salvation, His only begotten His Son, His Firstborn, ...
Psa 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
Psa 2:8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
Psa 2:9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel. ...Psa 2:12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.
Psa 89:27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.
Psa 89:28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.
Psa 89:29 His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.
Isa 42:16 And I will bring the blind by a way that they knew not; I will lead them in paths that they have not known: I will make darkness light before them, and crooked things straight. These things will I do unto them, and not forsake them.
Isa 35:4 Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you.
Isa 35:5 Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped.
Isa 35:6 Then shall the lame man leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing: for in the wilderness shall waters break out, and streams in the desert.
Isa 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
Isa 61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
Isa 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
Isa 42:2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.
Isa 42:3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.
Isa 42:4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.
Isa 42:5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
Isa 42:7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.
Isa 42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.
Psa 45:6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Isa 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
Jer 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
Jer 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
Jer 33:14 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will perform that good thing which I have promised unto the house of Israel and to the house of Judah.
Jer 33:15 In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land.
Isa 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
Isa 11:2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;
Isa 11:3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
Isa 11:4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
Isa 11:5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
Joh 12:37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
Joh 12:38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
Joh 12:39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
Joh 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
Isa 53:1 Who hath believed our report? andto whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
Isa 59:15 Yea, truth faileth; and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey: and the LORD saw it, and it displeased him that there was no judgment.
Isa 59:16 And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him.
Isa 59:17 For he put on righteousness as a breastplate, and an helmet of salvation upon his head; and he put on the garments of vengeance for clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloke.
Isa 51:4 Hearken unto me, my people; and give ear unto me, O my nation: for a law shall proceed from me, and I will make my judgment to rest for a light of the people.
Isa 51:5 My righteousness is near; my salvation is gone forth, and mine arms shall judge the people; the isles shall wait upon me, and on mine arm shall they trust.
Isa 51:9 Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the LORD; awake, as in the ancient days, in the generations of old. Art thou not it that hath cut Rahab, and wounded the dragon?
Isa 51:10 Art thou not it which hath dried the sea, the waters of the great deep; that hath made the depths of the sea a way for the ransomed to pass over?
Isa 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
Isa 49:7 Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.
Isa 49:8 Thus saith the LORD, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;
Isa 49:9 That thou mayest say to the prisoners, Go forth; to them that are in darkness, Shew yourselves. They shall feed in the ways, and their pastures shall be in all high places.
Isa 49:10 They shall not hunger nor thirst; neither shall the heat nor sun smite them: for he that hath mercy on them shall lead them, even by the springs of water shall he guide them.
As far as the spritual application of bruise and seed--which means descendents or children of........
Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Gen 22:17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
Gen 22:18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.
Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Heb 2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
Heb 2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
Heb 2:12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.
Heb 2:13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.
Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
Heb 2:15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
Rom 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
Rom 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
Rom 1:6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; [b]the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
1Co 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. [/b]
See also Revelation 12
You have to know and believe who God is and who Jesus is. If you don't believe all of the prophecies concerning the promised Messiah and promised Salvation of God, if you dismiss any or disbelieve any of them, you walk in unbelief for all. It's like the leaven of hypocrisy. Unbelief works in the same way and creates a dominoe effect over the Scriptures.
Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
Heb 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Psa 98:1 <A Psalm.> O sing unto the LORD a new song; for he hath done marvellous things: his right hand, and his holy arm, hath gotten him the victory.
Psa 98:2 The LORD hath made known his salvation: his righteousness hath he openly shewed in the sight of the heathen.
Psa 98:3 He hath remembered his mercy and his truth toward the house of Israel: all the ends of the earth have seen the salvation of our God.
Isa 40:5 And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.
Isa 52:10 The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God
Luk 2:25 And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.
Luk 2:26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ.
Luk 2:27 And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law,
Luk 2:28 Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said,
Luk 2:29 Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word:
Luk 2:30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,
Luk 2:31 Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people;
Luk 2:32 A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.
Luk 2:33 And Joseph and his mother marvelled at those things which were spoken of him.
Luk 2:34 And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against;
Luk 2:35 (Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.
Luk 2:10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.
Luk 2:11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.
IN order for Jesus to be the Son of God, God had to be His Father, not Joseph. Because to be born in the flesh, in the lineage of David, was part of the fulfillment of prophecy. Just as being born of a virgin was part of the prophecy. Just as all the other prophecies which show God's plan of salvation, and all the prophecies which pointed to Christ, and the New Covenant are either to be believed and held as true, or you topple them all by denying any one of them. That's a choice each must make. Jesus said if you seek you will find, if you seek Him with your whole heart.Sometimes people just don't want to believe because it means they have to change their beliefs to abide what God has declared through His Word. Sometimes they try to dictate what God 'should' have said, instead of what He did say. As recorded in His Word.
Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Psa 145:18 The LORD is nigh unto all them that call upon him, to all that call upon him in truth.
RE: The Messiah..born of a virgin... - Vic - 05-11-2011 03:22 PM
(05-09-2011 09:11 PM)YYZ Skinhead Wrote: Virgin births are scientifically possible nowadays in Petri dishes, so why couldn't they be induced supernaturally?
Anything man can attempt to do, God can do far greater and better. God who created the heavens and the earth; God who created Adam from dust....and Eve from a rib: I think we can believe----if we believe God can do anything at all including those things, ---we can believe He is capable in manifesting in any manner He chooses. From a cloud to a thundering sound, to a still small voice, a pillar of fire....He can present Himself in any manner He chooses.
That He chose to present prophecies which would declare His Salvation through His own manifestation of the Messiah; made after the flesh of the line of David but in the Spirit of God....
How can any say they believe God if they deny He is able....and who is anyone to say God wouldn't, couldn't, shouldn't have done it the way He chose to do it?
Declaring it all from Genesis 1 on, all the prophecies uniting and pointing to His Salvation...in and through Christ....
Isa 14:24 The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand:
...Isa 14:26 This is the purpose that is purposed upon the whole earth: and this is the hand that is stretched out upon all the nations.
Isa 14:27 For the LORD of hosts hath purposed, and who shall disannul it? and his hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back?
Psa 110:1 <A Psalm of David.> The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Psa 110:2 The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.
Psa 110:3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
Psa 110:4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.
Psa 110:5 The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.
Gen 18:14 Is any thing too hard for the LORD? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.
Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
Isa 43:12 I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God.
Isa 43:13 Yea, before the day was I am he; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work, and who shall let it?
Job 40:1 Moreover the LORD answered Job, and said,
Job 40:2 Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it.
Job 42:1 Then Job answered the LORD, and said,
Job 42:2 I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee.
Jer 32:17 Ah Lord GOD! behold, thou hast made the heaven and the earth by thy great power and stretched out arm, and there is nothing too hard for thee:
Jer 32:18 Thou shewest lovingkindness unto thousands, and recompensest the iniquity of the fathers into the bosom of their children after them: the Great, the Mighty God, the LORD of hosts, is his name,
Jer 32:19 Great in counsel, and mighty in work: for thine eyes are open upon all the ways of the sons of men: to give every one according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings:
Job 26:2 How hast thou helped him that is without power? how savest thou the arm that hath no strength?
Job 26:3 How hast thou counselled him that hath no wisdom? and how hast thou plentifully declared the thing as it is?
Job 26:4 To whom hast thou uttered words? and whose spirit came from thee?
Job 26:5 Dead things are formed from under the waters, and the inhabitants thereof.
Job 26:6 Hell is naked before him, and destruction hath no covering.
Job 26:7 He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.
Job 26:8 He bindeth up the waters in his thick clouds; and the cloud is not rent under them.
Job 26:9 He holdeth back the face of his throne, and spreadeth his cloud upon it.
Job 26:10 He hath compassed the waters with bounds, until the day and night come to an end.
Job 26:11 The pillars of heaven tremble and are astonished at his reproof.
Job 26:12 He divideth the sea with his power, and by his understanding he smiteth through the proud.
Job 26:13 By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent.
Job 26:14 Lo, these are parts of his ways: but how little a portion is heard of him? but the thunder of his power who can understand?
Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
Job 38:5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
Job 38:6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Job 38:8 Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?
Job 38:9 When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,
Job 38:10 And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,
Job 38:11 And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?
Job 38:12 Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place;
Job 38:13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?
Job 38:14 It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment.
Job 38:15 And from the wicked their light is withholden, and the high arm shall be broken.
Job 38:16 Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea? or hast thou walked in the search of the depth?
Job 38:17 Have the gates of death been opened unto thee? or hast thou seen the doors of the shadow of death?
Job 38:18 Hast thou perceived the breadth of the earth? declare if thou knowest it all.
Job 38:19 Where is the way where light dwelleth? and as for darkness, where is the place thereof,
Job 38:20 That thou shouldest take it to the bound thereof, and that thou shouldest know the paths to the house thereof?
Job 38:21 Knowest thou it, because thou wast then born? or because the number of thy days is great?
Job 38:22 Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow? or hast thou seen the treasures of the hail,
Job 38:23 Which I have reserved against the time of trouble, against the day of battle and war?
Job 38:24 By what way is the light parted, which scattereth the east wind upon the earth?
Job 38:25 Who hath divided a watercourse for the overflowing of waters, or a way for the lightning of thunder;
Job 38:26 To cause it to rain on the earth, where no man is; on the wilderness, wherein there is no man;
Job 38:27 To satisfy the desolate and waste ground; and to cause the bud of the tender herb to spring forth?
Job 38:28 Hath the rain a father? or who hath begotten the drops of dew?
Job 38:29 Out of whose womb came the ice? and the hoary frost of heaven, who hath gendered it?
Job 38:30 The waters are hid as with a stone, and the face of the deep is frozen.
Job 38:31 Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion?
Job 38:32 Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth in his season? or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons?
Job 38:33 Knowest thou the ordinances of heaven? canst thou set the dominion thereof in the earth?
Job 38:34 Canst thou lift up thy voice to the clouds, that abundance of waters may cover thee?
Job 38:35 Canst thou send lightnings, that they may go, and say unto thee, Here we are?
Job 38:36 Who hath put wisdom in the inward parts? or who hath given understanding to the heart?
Job 38:37 Who can number the clouds in wisdom? or who can stay the bottles of heaven,
Job 38:38 When the dust groweth into hardness, and the clods cleave fast together?
Job 38:39 Wilt thou hunt the prey for the lion? or fill the appetite of the young lions,
Job 38:40 When they couch in their dens, and abide in the covert to lie in wait?
Job 38:41 Who provideth for the raven his food? when his young ones cry unto God, they wander for lack of meat. ->ch 42
Isa 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
Isa 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Isa 45:8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it.
Isa 45:9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?
Isa 45:10 Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth?
Isa 45:11 Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.
Isa 45:12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.
Isa 45:13 I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the LORD of hosts.
Isa 40:10 Behold, the Lord GOD will come with strong hand, and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him.
Isa 40:11 He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young.
Isa 40:12 Who hath measured the waters in the hollow of his hand, and meted out heaven with the span, and comprehended the dust of the earth in a measure, and weighed the mountains in scales, and the hills in a balance?
Isa 40:13 Who hath directed the Spirit of the LORD, or being his counsellor hath taught him?
Isa 40:14 With whom took he counsel, and who instructed him, and taught him in the path of judgment, and taught him knowledge, and shewed to him the way of understanding?
Isa 40:15 Behold, the nations are as a drop of a bucket, and are counted as the small dust of the balance: behold, he taketh up the isles as a very little thing.
Isa 40:16 And Lebanon is not sufficient to burn, nor the beasts thereof sufficient for a burnt offering.
Isa 40:17 All nations before him are as nothing; and they are counted to him less than nothing, and vanity.
Isa 40:18 To whom then will ye liken God? or what likeness will ye compare unto him?
Isa 40:19 The workman melteth a graven image, and the goldsmith spreadeth it over with gold, and casteth silver chains.
Isa 40:20 He that is so impoverished that he hath no oblation chooseth a tree that will not rot; he seeketh unto him a cunning workman to prepare a graven image, that shall not be moved.
Isa 40:21 Have ye not known? have ye not heard? hath it not been told you from the beginning? have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth?
Isa 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:
Isa 40:23 That bringeth the princes to nothing; he maketh the judges of the earth as vanity.
Isa 40:24 Yea, they shall not be planted; yea, they shall not be sown: yea, their stock shall not take root in the earth: and he shall also blow upon them, and they shall wither, and the whirlwind shall take them away as stubble.
Isa 40:25 To whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One.
Isa 40:26 Lift up your eyes on high, and behold who hath created these things, that bringeth out their host by number: he calleth them all by names by the greatness of his might, for that he is strong in power; not one faileth.
RE: The Messiah..born of a virgin... - sari83 - 05-12-2011 12:49 PM
(05-11-2011 01:57 PM)Rose of Shushan Wrote: Isa 1:4 Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the LORD, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward.
Isa 14:20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.
Isa 57:4 Against whom do ye sport yourselves? against whom make ye a wide mouth, and draw out the tongue? are ye not children of transgression, a seed of falsehood,
It seems there are a few select times where zera is used figuratively.
That doesn't answer the main question I had though. Which is if the verse is literally referring to Eve's seed (lineage) or is it referring to her spiritual children?
(05-11-2011 01:57 PM)Rose of Shushan Wrote: Well think about it, by referring to her seed it differentiates from Abraham's seed right? If we are going to go by just ascribing a literal meaning to the word seed then the promise made to Abraham's seed would have included ALL of Abraham's literal seed..thus including the children by Abraham's various wives and concubines.
However we know the seed of promise was through Isaac and not Ishmael right?[/color][/b]
But it is literally referring to Hagar's lineage.
On a side note: Abraham was told that through Isaac his seed would be called.
RE: The Messiah..born of a virgin... - Rose of Shushan - 05-12-2011 07:11 PM
Quote:That doesn't answer the main question I had though. Which is if the verse is literally referring to Eve's seed (lineage) or is it referring to her spiritual children?How do you mean spiritual children? You totally lost me there since it's Eve were talking about.
I could see how someone could be a spiritual child of, for example, Sarah such as converts tend to do when they assume the bat sarah thing but in the case of Eve on what basis could someone be her spiritual child?
Especially as she is the mother of all living in a physical way anyway.
RE: The Messiah..born of a virgin... - sari83 - 05-12-2011 10:42 PM
(05-12-2011 07:11 PM)Rose of Shushan Wrote: How do you mean spiritual children? You totally lost me there since it's Eve were talking about. I could see how someone could be a spiritual child of, for example, Sarah such as converts tend to do when they assume the bat sarah thing but in the case of Eve on what basis could someone be her spiritual child? Especially as she is the mother of all living in a physical way anyway.[/color][/b]
I'm having difficulty understanding the implied meaning of the verse as it was posted on this thread. It sounded like the original post stated that the seed of the woman in Genesis 3:15 is taken to be literal (Messiah), but the seed of the serpent is taken to be figurative. Is that correct?
Gen 3:15
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
KJV
RE: The Messiah..born of a virgin... - Rose of Shushan - 05-12-2011 10:59 PM
Quote:I'm having difficulty understanding the implied meaning of the verse as it was posted on this thread. It sounded like the original post stated that the seed of the woman in Genesis 3:15 is taken to be literal (Messiah), but the seed of the serpent is taken to be figurative. Is that correct?
I went through the thread and it is you that is posing the question whether it is to be taken literally or metaphorically.
I personally have said that I see it as spiritual and Vic seems to have said the same thing.
I now see why you said about the spiritual children.
RE: The Messiah..born of a virgin... - sari83 - 05-17-2011 03:25 PM
(05-11-2011 02:33 PM)Vic Wrote: Sarah, as has been shown to you, the virgin birth in Isaiah 7:14, was not the only prophecy given concerning the coming Messiah, but as both Joseph and Mary received the fulfillment of that prophecy in what they were told by the angel in the Gospels concerning Jesus, and then the overshadowing of Mary. The word almah was proven to be used for virgin, specifically by example in the passage regarding none other than Rebekah. A fitting example. That you cannot receive that information because of unbelief is clear. But it does not change the Scriptural facts.
In reference to Isaiah 7:14: How could a child born 700+ years later serve as a sign for King Ahaz and His people? The name Immanuel (God is with us) was symbolic. This is revealed to us in chapter 8.
Isa 8:8-10
And he shall pass through Judah; he shall overflow and go over, he shall reach even to the neck; and the stretching out of his wings shall fill the breadth of thy land, O Immanuel. Associate yourselves, O ye people, and ye shall be broken in pieces; and give ear, all ye of far countries: gird yourselves, and ye shall be broken in pieces; gird yourselves, and ye shall be broken in pieces. Take counsel together, and it shall come to nought; speak the word, and it shall not stand: for God is with us.(KJV)
In all honesty, I have yet to find a prophecy (in it's proper context) that declares the Messiah will be born of a virgin.
(05-11-2011 02:33 PM)Vic Wrote: Mat 3:1 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,
Mat 3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mat 3:3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
Isa 40:3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
Mal 4:5 Behold, [b]I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
Mal 4:6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.
Malachi 4 seems to be specially referring to the "Day of Lord" as in judgement day/his final return to earth.
When the priests were sent to ask John if He is Elijah, he answers them with a no.
John 1:19-21
And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou? And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ. And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.
(KJV)
(05-11-2011 02:33 PM)Vic Wrote: John asked the question according to God's purposes, just as various people were healed according to God's purposes. Because Jesus was not just answering him, but teaching the multitudes who he was surrounded by and hearing that interaction, and for the later written record which is true as found in the Scriptures
Or perhaps, John was inquiring as to whether Jesus was the one to restore the kingdom?
Similar to those who assumed restoring the kingdom was part of His plan when they asked Him in Acts 1:6 "When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?"
(KJV)
(05-11-2011 02:33 PM)Vic Wrote: Throughout the Scriptures are the declarations of God's promise of Salvation, His only begotten His Son, His Firstborn, ...
Psa 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
Psa 2:8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
Psa 2:9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel. ...Psa 2:12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.
Psa 89:27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.
Psa 89:28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.
Psa 89:29 His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.
Isa 42:16 And I will bring the blind by a way that they knew not; I will lead them in paths that they have not known: I will make darkness light before them, and crooked things straight. These things will I do unto them, and not forsake them.
Isa 35:4 Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you.
Isa 35:5 Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped.
Isa 35:6 Then shall the lame man leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing: for in the wilderness shall waters break out, and streams in the desert.
Isa 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
Isa 61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
Isa 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
Isa 42:2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.
Isa 42:3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.
Isa 42:4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.
Isa 42:5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
Isa 42:7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.
Isa 42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.
Psa 45:6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Isa 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
Jer 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
Jer 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
Jer 33:14 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will perform that good thing which I have promised unto the house of Israel and to the house of Judah.
Jer 33:15 In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land.
Isa 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
Isa 11:2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;
Isa 11:3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
Isa 11:4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
Isa 11:5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
Joh 12:37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
Joh 12:38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
Joh 12:39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
Joh 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
Isa 53:1 Who hath believed our report? andto whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
Isa 59:15 Yea, truth faileth; and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey: and the LORD saw it, and it displeased him that there was no judgment.
Isa 59:16 And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him.
Isa 59:17 For he put on righteousness as a breastplate, and an helmet of salvation upon his head; and he put on the garments of vengeance for clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloke.
Isa 51:4 Hearken unto me, my people; and give ear unto me, O my nation: for a law shall proceed from me, and I will make my judgment to rest for a light of the people.
Isa 51:5 My righteousness is near; my salvation is gone forth, and mine arms shall judge the people; the isles shall wait upon me, and on mine arm shall they trust.
Isa 51:9 Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the LORD; awake, as in the ancient days, in the generations of old. Art thou not it that hath cut Rahab, and wounded the dragon?
Isa 51:10 Art thou not it which hath dried the sea, the waters of the great deep; that hath made the depths of the sea a way for the ransomed to pass over?
Isa 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
Isa 49:7 [b]Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.
Isa 49:8 Thus saith the LORD, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;
Isa 49:9 That thou mayest say to the prisoners, Go forth; to them that are in darkness, Shew yourselves. They shall feed in the ways, and their pastures shall be in all high places.
Isa 49:10 They shall not hunger nor thirst; neither shall the heat nor sun smite them: for he that hath mercy on them shall lead them, even by the springs of water shall he guide them.
The above prophecies all seem to be truly Messianic, in their correct and proper contexts.
(05-11-2011 02:33 PM)Vic Wrote: You have to know and believe who God is and who Jesus is. If you don't believe all of the prophecies concerning the promised Messiah and promised Salvation of God, if you dismiss any or disbelieve any of them, you walk in unbelief for all. It's like the leaven of hypocrisy. Unbelief works in the same way and creates a dominoe effect over the Scriptures.
I think you are saying if we even doubt one thing in the Scriptures to be true, the doubt creeps in, and it leads to questioning everything. However, take into consideration the fact that we are free to know and understand with confidence the reasons why we believe in the things we choose. To say that a person is responsible for understanding, and even insinuate that their salvation is contigent on believing that every word of the bible was written by the holy spirit, and is without error, sounds like a fairly heavy yolk.
(05-11-2011 02:33 PM)Vic Wrote: Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
The word of God mentioned here in Hebrew 4 is Christ. It doesn't mean a written book.
(05-11-2011 02:33 PM)Vic Wrote: IN order for Jesus to be the Son of God, God had to be His Father, not Joseph. Because to be born in the flesh, in the lineage of David, was part of the fulfillment of prophecy.
Take a look a these verses:
Rom 8:14
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
(KJV)
Rom 8:19
For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
(KJV)
John 1:12
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: (KJV)
I Jn 3:1-2
Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. (KJV)
RE: The Messiah..born of a virgin... - YYZ Skinhead - 05-17-2011 06:34 PM
Uh...what I meant to say was that virgin conception (injecting one sperm into the egg and implanting the zygote into the uterus of a virgin) is possible nowadays in Petri dishes. A baby cannot gestate in a Petri dish as far as I know.
RE: The Messiah..born of a virgin... - Vic - 05-22-2011 12:50 PM
(05-17-2011 03:25 PM)sari83 Wrote: [quote='Vic' pid='7554' dateline='1305138825']
Sarah, as has been shown to you, the virgin birth in Isaiah 7:14, was not the only prophecy given concerning the coming Messiah, but as both Joseph and Mary received the fulfillment of that prophecy in what they were told by the angel in the Gospels concerning Jesus, and then the overshadowing of Mary. The word almah was proven to be used for virgin, specifically by example in the passage regarding none other than Rebekah. A fitting example. That you cannot receive that information because of unbelief is clear. But it does not change the Scriptural facts.
Quote:In reference to Isaiah 7:14: How could a child born 700+ years later serve as a sign for King Ahaz and His people? The name Immanuel (God is with us) was symbolic. This is revealed to us in chapter 8.
Sarah YOur logic is not working. That would be like saying how could something that happened 6ooo years ago pertain to Christ....but wasnt' written about until about 4000 years ago....Genesis 1:1...
In many instances a passage of prophecy can have 1 or 2 verses or more specifically in reference to and pointing to Jesus Christ in amongst other declarations. For example--these are totally about Christ in the midst of other declarations.
Deu 18:15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;
Deu 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
Deu 18:19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.
Zec 6:12 And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD:
Zec 6:13 Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both. [/b]
God with us is more than symbolic. It is the meaning of one of the Names of Messiah that is Jesus Christ. That you don't believe that is your choice. But that is what the Scriptures---inspired by God, state.
Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mat 1:22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
You have to actually believe the Scriptures to be of God in order to understand them. That is why you deny them repeatedly and look for all manner of excuses why they can't be true. Because to believe them means you have to believe Christ and who HE IS.
Quote:In all honesty, I have yet to find a prophecy (in it's proper context) that declares the Messiah will be born of a virgin.
That's because you have chosen to not believe the Truth. Every person makes that choice. We have these many warnings, and they are all related to knowing who Jesus Christ is.
1Jn 2:21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jn 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
1Jn 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
1Jn 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
2Jn 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
2Jn 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
(05-11-2011 02:33 PM)Vic Wrote: Mat 3:1 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,
Mat 3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mat 3:3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
Isa 40:3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
Mal 4:5 Behold, [b]I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
Mal 4:6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.
Quote:Malachi 4 seems to be specially referring to the "Day of Lord" as in judgement day/his final return to earth.
When the priests were sent to ask John if He is Elijah, he answers them with a no.
Part of your problem Sarah is you like to ignore the passages which would prove you wrong.
What did Jesus say--who, according to your statements above must be a liar....But Jesus said, John the Baptist fulfilled those very prophecies including the one about Elijah.
Mat 11:9 But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? yea, I say unto you, and more than a prophet.
Mat 11:10 For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
Mat 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
Mat 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
Mat 11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
Mat 11:14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.
Mat 11:15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Quote:Or perhaps, John was inquiring as to whether Jesus was the one to restore the kingdom?
Similar to those who assumed restoring the kingdom was part of His plan when they asked Him in Acts 1:6 "When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?"
Endless and pointless speculation Sarah. It doesn't matter why he asked. Because you certainly don't know the mindset or reason, nor will you accept anything but your own private interpretation--which goes against the scriptures which you don't believe anyway. But we do know Jesus declared He was the fulfillment of prophecy, the Messiah, and He declared to the people who John really was.
(05-11-2011 02:33 PM)Vic Wrote: Throughout the Scriptures are the declarations of God's promise of Salvation, His only begotten His Son, His Firstborn, ...
Quote:The above prophecies all seem to be truly Messianic, in their correct and proper contexts.
Yes Sarah, but you don't believe them and you don't believe who Jesus is. Therefore your saying that really means nothing in context of who Jesus is according to the Scriptures.
Quote:I think you are saying if we even doubt one thing in the Scriptures to be true, the doubt creeps in, and it leads to questioning everything. However, take into consideration the fact that we are free to know and understand with confidence the reasons why we believe in the things we choose. To say that a person is responsible for understanding, and even insinuate that their salvation is contigent on believing that every word of the bible was written by the holy spirit, and is without error, sounds like a fairly heavy yolk.
NO Sarah, there is no heavy yoke in Christ. Believing the Scriptures which are God's Word to us, is no burden. If you don't believe the Scriptures you cannot believe God. Because He said all Scriptures were given by HIs inspiration. He said no prophecy is of private interpretation--meaning it wasn't just given by vain imagination or personal interpretation. It is fully understood via the understanding by the HOly Spirit.
You are suggesting you just get to pick and choose what you believe in the Scriptures---sort of like a smorg--stuff you don't like you don't take. Stuff you do like you take. That isn't of God. It is an all or nothing belief. If you deny one word of Christ---and for example as you have concerning even who John the Baptist is and what prophecies he fulfilled, you also deny Christ and the prophecies related to Him with John the Baptist.
YOu deny Christ's divinity and because of that you deny, that He is the salvation of GOd, the intercessor, the righteous right arm of God, and many many Scriptures which declare HIm God, and all the prophecies which declare Him. Declare HIm God manifest in the flesh; declare HIm the salvation of God.
There is not one Scripture that suggests you can pick and choose which Scriptures you want to believe as being all you need to believe. God's Word either stands true or it is lies. YOu are saying it holds lies. THerefore it cannot be God's Word for you.
Because God's Word is faithful and true. It is True from cover to cover. Every prophecy is true, and Jesus is the Spirit of prophecy. So you deny any prophecies you then therefore deny Christ.
Psa 119:160 Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.
Joh 5:36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
Joh 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
Joh 5:38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
1Co 14:36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
1Co 14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
Luk 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
Luk 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
Luk 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
Luk 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Luk 24:48 And ye are witnesses of these things.
Mal 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
Psa 12:6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
Psa 12:7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.
Psa 119:140 Thy word is very pure: therefore thy servant loveth it.
Pro 30:5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
Pro 30:6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Mat 13:18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
Mat 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
Mat 13:20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
Mat 13:21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
Mat 13:22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
Mat 13:23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
1Pe 1:24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
1Pe 1:25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.