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RE: The Messiah..born of a virgin... - Vic - 05-24-2011 06:46 PM
(05-24-2011 12:44 PM)sari83 Wrote: Here is the point I was making in the "Is God constrained to a book?" statement: You say that a person cannot and does not know God or Christ unless they believe that everything written in the bible is perfect without error, untainted, although it has been through the imperfect hands of men many times over and the book itself is a compilation of a collection of books and letters put through a canonization process by a council of men.
My question remains....Is God constrained to a book?
Helen Keller, a heroic woman who was deaf and blind, yet gave witness to the fact that she knew God even before she knew any words.
So, I certainly do believe God is migthy powerful. Creation itself bears witness of his power and magnificence.
Sarah, I said if you don't believe God's Word is True then you don't believe the written record inspired by HIm... and if you deny any of that record you deny Him, and if you deny any of the Messianic prophecies you deny all. Because it is either all true or all lies. It's not a smorg of pick and choose. It's all or nothing. It's either God's Word or it is not.
Sarah, if you believe God is "mighty powerful and creation bears witness of his power and magnificence"...
How come you don't believe that with God all things are possible?
How come you do not believe He is able to manifest in the flesh, although He made everything and every creature including man?
How come you don't believe that by His purpose and design of salvation and eternal life, He chose to become flesh in the form and in the lineage of a man, and born of a virgin, and in the flesh as the Son of God?
How come you don't believe He is able to do that or anything He chooses to do?
How come you don't believe His own revelation and words concerning those things?
How come you don't believe God's Word as True and He can convey and protect it because of and in spite of imperfect men?
How come you believe God is so inept and incapable, and non-powerful as to give us a written record and revelation that is proclaimed His Word, that really isn't His at all?
He must not want anyone to know Him and or have salvation based on all that.
The canonization process meant it had to have met very high standards and criteria Sarah. It meant a writing couldn't be just anyone's claimed interpretations or vain imaginations or vain wisdom and writings--and false claims it was of God. Believe it or not, there were actually godly men and women in those times, long before you came on the scene. But I am sure that will not be heard either.
The OT was compiled long before the NT was. And the promises and prophecies contained in there were well proven to be fulfilled in Christ. The record of Christ, His birth and walking the earth, as contained in the Gospels, and the written record of His eyewitnesses, the apostles, is what is comprised of in the NT. Since you don't believe God was able to keep that which He gave through "holy men" of God via the Holy Spirit, then it's doubtful you will ever believe He was able to make sure the written record from Genesis 1 to Revelation was able to be copied from generation to generation--even though that is exactly what took place for the OT...and the pattern for the NT transmission.
But while your god can't and isn't able to do that and many other things, Sarah, my God is more than able. To accomplish all He has purposed and more.
Paul wrote:
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Rom 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. [b]
Jesus prayed for the apostles>
Joh 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
If there was no 'word' of declaration and proclamation of the apostles' eye witness reports and laying the doctrinal foundations for believers, there really was no reason for Christ to die...because no one would ever have heard about it. And there was a lot of time wasted providing the God inspired WRITTEN record, made over many years by 40 authors and cohesive from one book to the other.
Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, <<<<that all things which are written>>>> may be fulfilled.
Luk 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, >>>>which were written<<<< in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
Luk 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
Luk 24:46 And said unto them,<<<< Thus it is written, >>>>and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
Luk 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Luk 24:48 And ye are witnesses of these things.
Luk 1:1 Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us,
Luk 1:2 Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;
Luk 1:3 It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first,<<< to write unto thee in order,>>> most excellent Theophilus,
Luk 1:4 <<<That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed. >>>
Joh 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
Joh 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
Joh 20:30 <<<And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: >>>
Joh 20:31 But<<<< these are written,>>>> that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
Joh 21:24 <<<This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true. >>>
Joh 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.
RE: The Messiah..born of a virgin... - Rose of Shushan - 05-24-2011 09:01 PM
Quote:Rebekah is called a betulah' when referring to her virginity, and she is called almah in reference to her age. (since almah means a young woman.)
I ,like many others, am not convinced with the anti missionary argument that betulah meant a virgin and almah was merely a young woman.
The jewish translators of the Septuagint happened to choose the word parthenos which means virgin in their translation of the verse in question when they could have chosen something else.
Matthew also chose the word parthenos when quoting Isaiah's verse in the NT.
Sari since like you I also like to research things and reconcile biblical inconsistencies I too did a lot of research into the whole almah and betulah issue.
What I found was that there does seem to be times when betulah is used and its not referring to physical virginity.
The most obvious verse is perhaps Joel's
Joe 1:8 Lament like a virgin girded with sackcloth for the husband of her youth.
Here the husband is referred to as a baal and this would signify that the marriage had been consummated.
Some anti mish would say that this is referring to a woman that was betrothed and didn't consummate the marriage however in that case the text would have used the word arus which refers to a man betrothed but not yet married.
In Jewish tradition, the marriage ceremony has two parts; the betrothal/erusin and the marriage/nissu'in similar to our engagement and then marriage.
Interestingly the Talmud distinguishes between two types of betulah, one of them being called a betulah shleymah and referring to a perfect or complete virgin.
Supposedly the Talmud also says
"Who is regarded as betulah? Any woman, even though she is married, who has never yet observed a flow....Our Rabbis taught: [If a virgin] married and observed a discharge of blood that was due to the marriage, or if when she bore a child she observed a discharge of blood that was due to the birth, she is still called a betulah, because the virgin of whom the Rabbis spoke is one that is so in regards to menstrual blood but not one who is so in regard to the blood of virginity." (Niddah, I,2; 8b; cf 11b)
So here the connection was to having menstrual periods and not to having known a man since it seems that a young girl may marry and have a child and still be regarded as a betulah.
Although this is Talmud and not Scripture it sheds a different light on the word wouldn't you agree?
This use independent of physical virginity may explain why its also used to refer to Israel by the prophet Jeremiah at a time when God was calling on Israel to repent of her harlotry.
Jer 3:1 They say, If a man put away his wife, and she go from him, and become another man's, shall he return unto her again? shall not that land be greatly polluted? but thou hast played the harlot with many lovers; yet return again to me, saith the LORD.
Jer 3:2 Lift up thine eyes unto the high places, and see where thou hast not been lien with. In the ways hast thou sat for them, as the Arabian in the wilderness; and thou hast polluted the land with thy whoredoms and with thy wickedness.
Jer 3:3 Therefore the showers have been withholden, and there hath been no latter rain; and thou hadst a *****'s forehead, thou refusedst to be ashamed.
Jer 3:6 The LORD said also unto me in the days of Josiah the king, Hast thou seen that which backsliding Israel hath done? she is gone up upon every high mountain and under every green tree, and there hath played the harlot.
Jer 3:8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
After all that God still uses the term betulah to refer to Israel when he says
Jer 18:13 Therefore thus saith the LORD; Ask ye now among the heathen, who hath heard such things: the virgin of Israel hath done a very horrible thing.
Jer 31:4 Again I will build thee, and thou shalt be built, O virgin of Israel: thou shalt again be adorned with thy tabrets, and shalt go forth in the dances of them that make merry.
Jer 46:11 Go up into Gilead, and take balm, O virgin, the daughter of Egypt: in vain shalt thou use many medicines; for thou shalt not be cured.
Interestingly the root of almah, elem means to be conceiled or veiled from sight.So maybe the virgin connotation arises from a virgin being one who has never been uncovered and is thus concealed.
In the Bible the term to uncover someone's nakedness meant to have sexual relations with them.
The root of betulah comes from batal and badal which means to separate and in the cognate languages of akkadian and Ugarit (batultu and btlt respectively) both refer to an adolescent nubile young woman.
That the woman doesn’t have to be a virgin is borne out by an account in a Ugaritic myth of the sexual relations of Baal with the goddess Anath, who bears the honorific epithet btlt. Btlt is also used of Anat, the wife of Baal.
Although thse are cognates and not the actual Hebrew it is interesting to see the similiarities to the Hebrew and the way the words were used.
Finally Vic also mentioned how when almah was used in
Gen 24:16 And the damsel (ha naarah) was very fair to look upon, a virgin,( betulah) neither had any man known her: and she went down to the well, and filled her pitcher, and came up.
We see that the betulah needed the added clarification that she had known no man.If betulah had so obviously meant a virgin then that would have been redundant.
RE: The Messiah..born of a virgin... - Vic - 05-25-2011 12:20 PM
Quote:Finally Vic also mentioned how when almah was used in
Gen 24:16 And the damsel (ha naarah) was very fair to look upon, a virgin,( betulah) neither had any man known her: and she went down to the well, and filled her pitcher, and came up.
We see that the betulah needed the added clarification that she had known no man.If betulah had so obviously meant a virgin then that would have been redundant.
I think what is most significant in that is the clarification that Rebekah was indeed a virgin as we understand it, meaning never having had sex. And the phrase, " neither had any man known her" validating that is also precisely why we know Mary was also a true virgin.
Luk 1:26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,
Luk 1:27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.
Notice that just as with Rebekah, the context dictates the use for virgin, but it clearly means virgin in the sense we understand it:
To a virginG3933
G3933
παρθένος
parthenos
Thayer Definition:
1) a virgin
1a) a marriageable maiden
1b) a woman who has never had sexual intercourse with a man
1c) one’s marriageable daughter
2) a man who has abstained from all uncleanness and whoredom attendant on idolatry, and so has kept his chastity
2a) one who has never had intercourse with women
Part of Speech: noun feminine
Luk 1:28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
Luk 1:29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.
Luk 1:30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
Luk 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
Luk 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
Luk 1:34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
We see the full clarification of the meaning of virgin by Mary's statement to the angel,"seeing I know not a man", just as Rebekah's was clarified with " neither had any man known her"
seeing G1893
ἐπεί
epei
Thayer Definition:
1) when, since
1a) of time: after
1b) of cause: since, seeing that, because
Part of Speech: conjunction
I knowG1097
γινώσκω
ginōskō
Thayer Definition:
1) to learn to know, come to know, get a knowledge of perceive, feel
1a) to become known
2) to know, understand, perceive, have knowledge of
2a) to understand
2b) to know
3) Jewish idiom for sexual intercourse between a man and a woman
4) to become acquainted with, to know
Part of Speech: verb
not G3756
οὐ
ou
Thayer Definition:
1) no, not; in direct questions expecting an affirmative answer
Part of Speech: particle
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: a primary word, the absolute negative [compare G3361] adverb
a man G435
ἀνήρ
anēr
Thayer Definition:
1) with reference to sex
1a) of a male
1b) of a husband
1c) of a betrothed or future husband
2) with reference to age, and to distinguish an adult man from a boy
3) any male
4) used generically of a group of both men and women
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: a primary word compare G444
So we see, just as Rebekah's virginity was clarified to mean she had never had sex with any man, so too, Mary's statement clarifies she had never had sex with any man.
That fulfillment of Isaiah 7:14 is found in the very words of, "The Lord Himself shall give you a sign;"
"Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel."
Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Isa 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
Luk 1:37 For with God nothing shall be impossible.
RE: The Messiah..born of a virgin... - Vic - 05-25-2011 12:29 PM
(05-17-2011 06:34 PM)YYZ Skinhead Wrote: Uh...what I meant to say was that virgin conception (injecting one sperm into the egg and implanting the zygote into the uterus of a virgin) is possible nowadays in Petri dishes. A baby cannot gestate in a Petri dish as far as I know.
You know I was thinking how man has always tried to eliminate God from the equation. God created the ability to procreate. It's like that old cartoon about man claiming they don't need God. The claim is They can now create life--setting aside where the sperm and egg came from...and I forget how exactly the conversation goes, but God tells them to get their own dirt....
He is the Creator of all, He knows how it all works and what is possible---and with God all things are possible. And with man, such as trying to create and gestate a baby outside a womb....someone may come up with some weird frankenstein way at some point, but bottom line, it will never be what is of God. And man will never be able to equal what God has done, and is capable of doing.
RE: The Messiah..born of a virgin... - sari83 - 05-28-2011 08:03 PM
(05-23-2011 08:24 PM)Rose of Shushan Wrote: By that same logic would you also deny other things that happened in the Bible that also seem to go against the laws of nature?
For example Abraham and Sarah were well beyond child bearing years when God said Gen 17:16 And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her. Gen 17:17 Then Abraham fell upon his face, and laughed, and said in his heart, Shall a child be born unto him that is an hundred years old? and shall Sarah, that is ninety years old, bear?
[/color][b][color=#4B0082]I suppose there you would say that God is breaking laws of nature. I don't see God as breaking anything.God created us and created nature and He does with His creation what He wants.
Abraham and Sarah must have experienced a sort of renewal after being in the Lord's presence. However, they still conceived a child naturally.
I think the "youthful restoration" they experienced is comparative to how Moses remained healthy and youthful until his death, Deut 34:7 "And Moses was an hundred and twenty years old when he died: his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated." (KJV)
Many times in the Bible women who struggled with infertility (precise reasons unknown) through prayer and understanding of God as the giver of life were able to conceive, such as Rachel and Hannah.
It is my understanding that God set the laws that govern creation in motion at the beginning of time. I think there are miraculous occurances that take place in creation through the capabilities God instilled within his natural laws.
One of the reasons why I believe the Messiah was born through natural conception is because mankind had to wait for the Redeemer to come through the natural course of time.
(05-23-2011 08:24 PM)Rose of Shushan Wrote: Jesus demonstrated many times His control over nature.He changed water into wine, healed the sick, created eyes for a man born blind, showed control over the sea and wind and also over death itself as in the resurrection of Lazarus.
Because sin has caused unnatural things, such as, diseases and death to enter into God's creation, it makes perfect sense that many of his miracles have to do with the healing and reversing of such things.
RE: The Messiah..born of a virgin... - Rose of Shushan - 05-29-2011 09:20 AM
Quote:Abraham and Sarah must have experienced a sort of renewal after being in the Lord's presence. However, they still conceived a child naturally.
I think the "youthful restoration" they experienced is comparative to how Moses remained healthy and youthful until his death, Deut 34:7 "And Moses was an hundred and twenty years old when he died: his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated." (KJV)
Your definition of naturally has to allow for the fact that Sarah ,being 90, would have ceased having periods long ago and her ovaries were just not releasing eggs to be available for fertilisation.
Her womb also would not have been in a state to sustain a pregnancy.Therefore I wonder how natural a conception in those circumstances would be without God intervening in "the laws of nature" in that particular case..
Then we also have the following
Gen 20:17 So Abraham prayed unto God: and God healed Abimelech, and his wife, and his maidservants; and they bare children.
Gen 20:18 For the LORD had fast closed up all the wombs of the house of Abimelech, because of Sarah Abraham's wife.
It seems that God also played around with the "laws of nature" there by stopping up all those wombs ,wouldn't you say ?
RE: The Messiah..born of a virgin... - Deborah446 - 05-29-2011 10:01 AM
Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
<< Hebrews 11 >>
King James Version
1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2For by it the elders obtained a good report.
3Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. 4By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh. 5By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 6But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. 7By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
8By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. 9By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: 10For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. 11Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised. 12Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
13These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. 15And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
17By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, 18Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: 19Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure. 20By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come. 21By faith Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff. 22By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones.
23By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment. 24By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; 25Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; 26Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward. 27By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible. 28Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them. 29By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.
30By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days. 31By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.
32And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets: 33Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, 34Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. 35Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection: 36And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment: 37They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented; 38(Of whom the world was not worthy
they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.39And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
RE: The Messiah..born of a virgin... - Vic - 05-29-2011 01:17 PM
(05-23-2011 08:24 PM)Rose of Shushan Wrote: By that same logic would you also deny other things that happened in the Bible that also seem to go against the laws of nature?
For example Abraham and Sarah were well beyond child bearing years when God said Gen 17:16 And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her. Gen 17:17 Then Abraham fell upon his face, and laughed, and said in his heart, Shall a child be born unto him that is an hundred years old? and shall Sarah, that is ninety years old, bear?
[/color]I suppose there you would say that God is breaking laws of nature. I don't see God as breaking anything.God created us and created nature and He does with His creation what He wants.
Quote:Abraham and Sarah must have experienced a sort of renewal after being in the Lord's presence. However, they still conceived a child naturally.
I think the "youthful restoration" they experienced is comparative to how Moses remained healthy and youthful until his death, Deut 34:7 "And Moses was an hundred and twenty years old when he died: his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated." (KJV)
There is absolutely no comparison there Sarah. That's apples to oranges. Adam lived 930 yrs, Enoch lived 365 years---and God took him...he didn't die....I guess your 'law of nature' argument has some holes...
The comparison was given to you concerning other women who were well passed being able to conceive a child...because they were old and barren. Three examples were given of the miraculous by God and you dismiss them all...
They didn't just get frisky Sarah, they conceived because of the power and determination of God. In fact in the case of Abraham and Sarah, God gave the prophecy she would conceive a year later. And that God would come back when it was time for her to conceive. If it was just a matter of being revitalised, --reversing the aging process and making them feel young again...there would have been no need for God to 'show up' at the planned event.
Gen 17:21 But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.
...Gen 18:10 And he said, I will certainly return unto thee according to the time of life; and, lo, Sarah thy wife shall have a son. And Sarah heard it in the tent door, which was behind him.
Gen 18:11 Now Abraham and Sarah were old and well stricken in age; and it ceased to be with Sarah after the manner of women.
Gen 18:12 Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, After I am waxed old shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?
...Gen 18:14 Is any thing too hard for the LORD? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.
Gen 20:17 So Abraham prayed unto God: and God healed Abimelech, and his wife, and his maidservants; and they bare children.
Gen 20:18 For the LORD had fast closed up all the wombs of the house of Abimelech, because of Sarah Abraham's wife. >>> God playing with the laws of nature
Gen 21:1 And the LORD visited Sarah as he had said, and the LORD did unto Sarah as he had spoken.
Gen 21:2 For Sarah conceived, and bare Abraham a son in his old age, at the set time of which God had spoken to him.
Gen 21:3 And Abraham called the name of his son that was born unto him, whom Sarah bare to him, Isaac.
Here's the question----how come God gave the prophecy about Sarah conceiving and when it would be ---if it was just that they got frisky again.
Do decrepit barren and sterile old ladies normally start menstruating again in order to ovulate and conceive when they have already gone well beyond the 'law of nature?
I am so looking for the Scripture for that 'law of nature" passage; which binds God's hands and abilities so to speak. Do you have that passage of Scripture Sarah?
I guess a burning bush that doesn't burn up is just a parlor trick, right?
God created the heavens and earth from NOTHING---which law of nature would that be, He was abiding by and bound to?
Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Heb 11:2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.
Heb 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
Isa 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.
Act 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
Act 17:25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
Act 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
Act 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
If God can give man a spirit, He can conceive and make a man with His Spirit.If God can make women conceive or not, He can make one conceive without being with a man.
Zec 12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.
I know Sarah. You aren't going to answer my questions or other posts, because to do so would show your heresies and unbelief even further.
Quote:Many times in the Bible women who struggled with infertility (precise reasons unknown) through prayer and understanding of God as the giver of life were able to conceive, such as Rachel and Hannah.
It is my understanding that God set the laws that govern creation in motion at the beginning of time. I think there are miraculous occurances that take place in creation through the capabilities God instilled within his natural laws.
The precise reasons for being barren were clearly known for Sarah, Manoah's wife, and Elizabeth....all three were old and stricken in age and were barren according to what happens to a woman after child bearing years. That you cannot comprehend the significance of that is not a surprise. You are so determined to not believe and are so steeped in unbelief that you refuse the Scriptural truths.
Quote:One of the reasons why I believe the Messiah was born through natural conception is because mankind had to wait for the Redeemer to come through the natural course of time.
I know you won't grasp the absurdity of your reasoning but allow me to elaborate. The Messiah came through the required lineage at precisely the time determined by God for fulfillment of all prophecies concerning Him. It had nothing to do with this imaginary law of nature you bind to God and bind His workings to. He is in control of all....it does not control Him.
The natural course of time merely means when things would be revealed and unfold--according to God's timing and plan. It has nothing whatsoever to do with 'the law of nature' determining when Christ was to be born....God had it all planned from before Adam....and every generation is counted ..according to the Scriptures which you reject. Matthew 1--gives the lineage...by generation....and God's planned New covenant was according to HIS TIMING. Just as how He would come was according to God's PERFECT plan...and promises throughout the Scripture...that a virgin would conceive... prophecy ....the virgin did conceive...fulfilled prophecy... the prophecy of God giving a child, the only begotten of the Father, kiss the Son, do you know His name....all prophecies fulfilled...because God said, this day I have begotten thee...
Your unbelief of all that God laid out, showing you don't believe God is able to do much at all...unless bound to your hypocritical and authoritarian imagination based beliefs.
Hypocritical because you condemn christians and the church for the Word of God and believing it and abiding doctrine from it, when you reject it. Hypocritical because you say the Bible holds some truth and you believe it but you don't believe it's God's word and don't believe what is in it. Authoritarian in the exact same way you have accused prior believers of the body of Christ, for determining doctrine---based on the word of God, and you now make your own doctrine based outside the word of God and call it sound, logical, reasoned...and it's all your vain imagination puffed up to overturn the Truth of Jesus Christ and salvation to mankind, and specifically the overturning of the NT...and you think others have problems....take a good look Sarah, because the downward slide you are on does not lead to Christ, but further and further away. That you recieve nothing but maintain your own vain doctrine is sad....but Scriptural.
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
2Th 2:14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
No, I am not passing judgment on you Sarah. I am merely evaluating all you believe to the Scriptures and this is the only conclusion that can be reached. You don't believe the record of the God ordained eyewitnesses of Christ and prophets of God. That record was given so we would have the sound doctrine to be able to discern between good and evil and truth and error. Your posts reek of error, tainted and leavened with unbelief and self determined beliefs....It is not of Christ....but then...you deny the written record of Him so that cannot be a surprise.
(05-23-2011 08:24 PM)Rose of Shushan Wrote: Jesus demonstrated many times His control over nature.He changed water into wine, healed the sick, created eyes for a man born blind, showed control over the sea and wind and also over death itself as in the resurrection of Lazarus.
Because sin has caused unnatural things, such as, diseases and death to enter into God's creation, it makes perfect sense that many of his miracles have to do with the healing and reversing of such things.
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Sarah, Jesus came that people could have life...and be healed... and eternal life--which totally defies the "law of nature" which you hold far dearer than any Scriptural truth. What man is bound to is not what God is bound to. You are so busy trying to be 'logical' and analytical you miss that walking by faith is what pleases God. Trusting HIM beyond what is 'natural'. The natural man cannot receive Scriptural truths nor understand them. That is where you are at according to the Scriptures. It is only by the Holy Spirit indwelling and giving understanding that you will ever be able to shed that unbelief that dominates your thinking.
40 years in the desert took people who had seen God's amazing miracles in Egypt, and His care for them was simply forgotten as they entered the spiritual desert of unbelief. And what did God say:
Heb 3:7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
Heb 3:8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
Heb 3:9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
Heb 3:10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
Heb 3:11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
Heb 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Heb 3:15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
Heb 3:16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
Heb 3:17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
Heb 3:18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
Heb 3:19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
You got really angry at me and accused me of 'dirty tricks' when I asked you something on another thread, and which you blustered about and refused to answer. There was nothing 'dirty' about it, nor was it some trick. You had brought your late husband into various conversations on this forum. So I had asked you something and I am asking again.
If your late husband knew Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord when he died, did he know Him as a true believer and a "Christian', believing the Truth of the Scriptures including about Christ, the virgin birth and all the prophecies concerning Him? Or did he reject those truths?
Was he a bible believing Christian or was he like you, denying the Scriptures as True, and denying the Messianic prophecies and many other truths concerning Christ...because of unbelief?
I've read his poems, and his tribute....I have an idea...but perhaps you can clarify when exactly you lost faith...or did you or he ever have it?Would he be in agreement with where you are at in your beliefs?
RE: The Messiah..born of a virgin... - sari83 - 05-31-2011 10:34 AM
(05-24-2011 09:01 PM)Rose of Shushan Wrote: I ,like many others, am not convinced with the anti missionary argument that betulah meant a virgin and almah was merely a young woman.
Aside from anti missionary arguments, The Hebrew scholar Gesenius, defines almah as a "girl of marriageable age."
(05-24-2011 09:01 PM)Rose of Shushan Wrote: The jewish translators of the Septuagint happened to choose the word parthenos which means virgin in their translation of the verse in question when they could have chosen something else.Matthew also chose the word parthenos when quoting Isaiah's verse in the NT.
Are there different terms in Greek that are used to denote a young woman, virgin, or newly married woman?
(05-24-2011 09:01 PM)Rose of Shushan Wrote: Sari since like you I also like to research things and reconcile biblical inconsistencies I too did a lot of research into the whole almah and betulah issue. What I found was that there does seem to be times when betulah is used and its not referring to physical virginity.
The verses in which betulah is clearly defined as a virgin or physical virginity should also be noted....
Deut 22:17-19
And, lo, he hath given occasions of speech against her, saying, I found not thy daughter a maid (betulah); and yet these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity(betulah). And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city. And the elders of that city shall take that man and chastise him; And they shall amerce him in an hundred shekels of silver, and give them unto the father of the damsel, because he hath brought up an evil name upon a virgin (betulah) of Israel: and she shall be his wife; he may not put her away all his days.
(KJV)
Lev 21:14
A widow, or a divorced woman, or profane, or an harlot, these shall he not take: but he shall take a virgin (betulah) of his own people to wife. (KJV)
Isa 62:5
For as a young man marrieth a virgin (betulah), so shall thy sons marry thee: and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee. (KJV)
(05-24-2011 09:01 PM)Rose of Shushan Wrote: Interestingly the Talmud distinguishes between two types of betulah, one of them being called a betulah shleymah and referring to a perfect or complete virgin. Supposedly the Talmud also says "Who is regarded as betulah? Any woman, even though she is married, who has never yet observed a flow....Our Rabbis taught: [If a virgin] married and observed a discharge of blood that was due to the marriage, or if when she bore a child she observed a discharge of blood that was due to the birth, she is still called a betulah, because the virgin of whom the Rabbis spoke is one that is so in regards to menstrual blood but not one who is so in regard to the blood of virginity." (Niddah, I,2; 8b; cf 11b) So here the connection was to having menstrual periods and not to having known a man since it seems that a young girl may marry and have a child and still be regarded as a betulah. Although this is Talmud and not Scripture it sheds a different light on the word wouldn't you agree?)
I don't think I'm understanding this clearly. How can a woman bear a child if she hasn't had a menstrual period?
(05-24-2011 09:01 PM)Rose of Shushan Wrote: Jer 3:1 They say, If a man put away his wife, and she go from him, and become another man's, shall he return unto her again? shall not that land be greatly polluted? but thou hast played the harlot with many lovers; yet return again to me, saith the LORD.
Jer 3:2 Lift up thine eyes unto the high places, and see where thou hast not been lien with. In the ways hast thou sat for them, as the Arabian in the wilderness; and thou hast polluted the land with thy whoredoms and with thy wickedness.
Jer 3:3 Therefore the showers have been withholden, and there hath been no latter rain; and thou hadst a *****'s forehead, thou refusedst to be ashamed.
Jer 3:6 The LORD said also unto me in the days of Josiah the king, Hast thou seen that which backsliding Israel hath done? she is gone up upon every high mountain and under every green tree, and there hath played the harlot.
Jer 3:8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
After all that God still uses the term betulah to refer to Israel when he says
Jer 18:13 Therefore thus saith the LORD; Ask ye now among the heathen, who hath heard such things: the virgin of Israel hath done a very horrible thing.
Jer 31:4 Again I will build thee, and thou shalt be built, O virgin of Israel: thou shalt again be adorned with thy tabrets, and shalt go forth in the dances of them that make merry.
Jer 46:11 Go up into Gilead, and take balm, O virgin, the daughter of Egypt: in vain shalt thou use many medicines; for thou shalt not be cured.
The word betulah is being used in a figurative sense in the Jeremiah verses; metaphorically designating the restoration of Israel to her former "undefiled" state.
Parthenos is also used figuratively in Rev. 14:4
"These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins (parthenos). These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb." (KJV)
(05-24-2011 09:01 PM)Rose of Shushan Wrote: Interestingly the root of almah, elem means to be conceiled or veiled from sight.So maybe the virgin connotation arises from a virgin being one who has never been uncovered and is thus concealed.
In the Bible the term to uncover someone's nakedness meant to have sexual relations with them.
Elem (masculine root of almah), denotes a young man.
(05-24-2011 09:01 PM)Rose of Shushan Wrote: The root of betulah comes from batal and badal which means to separate and in the cognate languages of akkadian and Ugarit (batultu and btlt respectively) both refer to an adolescent nubile young woman.
That the woman doesn’t have to be a virgin is borne out by an account in a Ugaritic myth of the sexual relations of Baal with the goddess Anath, who bears the honorific epithet btlt. Btlt is also used of Anat, the wife of Baal.
Although thse are cognates and not the actual Hebrew it is interesting to see the similiarities to the Hebrew and the way the words were used.
From what I've researched, there is no word for virgin in Akkadian. That perhaps, Anat is called btlt is because that is the term in Akkadian used for a young woman who has no children.
(05-24-2011 09:01 PM)Rose of Shushan Wrote: Finally Vic also mentioned how when almah was used in
Gen 24:16 And the damsel (ha naarah) was very fair to look upon, a virgin,( betulah) neither had any man known her: and she went down to the well, and filled her pitcher, and came up. We see that the betulah needed the added clarification that she had known no man.If betulah had so obviously meant a virgin then that would have been redundant.
Betulah is used more often than not to refer to virginity or an undefiled state.
At the same time, it can be asked, in what instances does the word almah specify virginity?
(05-29-2011 09:20 AM)Rose of Shushan Wrote: Your definition of naturally has to allow for the fact that Sarah ,being 90, would have ceased having periods long ago and her ovaries were just not releasing eggs to be available for fertilisation.
Her womb also would not have been in a state to sustain a pregnancy.Therefore I wonder how natural a conception in those circumstances would be without God intervening in "the laws of nature" in that particular case..
Then we also have the following
Gen 20:17 So Abraham prayed unto God: and God healed Abimelech, and his wife, and his maidservants; and they bare children. Gen 20:18 For the LORD had fast closed up all the wombs of the house of Abimelech, because of Sarah Abraham's wife. It seems that God also played around with the "laws of nature" there by stopping up all those wombs ,wouldn't you say ?
Abraham and Sarah conceived naturally in the sense that it takes both a man and a woman to conceive a child.
These are excellent examples that teach us that only God's energy brings forth life. Apart from him life cannot be brought into the world.
RE: The Messiah..born of a virgin... - sari83 - 05-31-2011 01:46 PM
(05-29-2011 01:17 PM)Vic Wrote: There is absolutely no comparison there Sarah. That's apples to oranges. Adam lived 930 yrs, Enoch lived 365 years---and God took him...he didn't die....I guess your 'law of nature' argument has some holes...
In my previous post, I made the statement that death itself is unnatural, and entered into God's creation through sin. Did not sin bring the curse of death creating a need for God's plan of redemption?
(05-29-2011 01:17 PM)Vic Wrote: The comparison was given to you concerning other women who were well passed being able to conceive a child...because they were old and barren. Three examples were given of the miraculous by God and you dismiss them all...
They didn't just get frisky Sarah, they conceived because of the power and determination of God. In fact in the case of Abraham and Sarah, God gave the prophecy she would conceive a year later. And that God would come back when it was time for her to conceive. If it was just a matter of being revitalised, --reversing the aging process and making them feel young again...there would have been no need for God to 'show up' at the planned event.
Abraham and Sarah had to wait for the appointed time for the prophesy to be fulfilled. In my mind, it was a picture of the expectation of the child of the promise. (Messiah)
The fact that God re-visited Sarah at the appointed time affirms to me that Sarah's womb was renewed and restored, and just as God promised they conceived a child.
(05-29-2011 01:17 PM)Vic Wrote: I am so looking for the Scripture for that 'law of nature" passage; which binds God's hands and abilities so to speak. Do you have that passage of Scripture Sarah?
Paul speaks of the concept of being taught by nature;
1 Cor 11:14
Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him? (KJV)
Rom 1:26
For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
(KJV)
Here are some examples of God subjecting his creation to laws:
God created everything to bring forth its fruit after its own kind. So, a rabbit and a pig or a turtle and a snake cannot produce an offspring. Each animal must bring forth offspring only by its own kind, and so it is to this day.
Gen 1:11-12
And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. (KJV)
Gen 1:21
nd God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good. (KJV)
God created the sun, moon, stars, etc. to govern time and also to serve as signs. Through years of observation of these aspects of nature mankind has divised many tools to measure and "read" them.
Gen 1:14-18
And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. (KJV)
(05-29-2011 01:17 PM)Vic Wrote: I guess a burning bush that doesn't burn up is just a parlor trick, right?
God created the heavens and earth from NOTHING---which law of nature would that be, He was abiding by and bound to?
We witness anomalies that take place on earth such as hurricanes, tornadoes, and earthquakes. These occurances don't take place on a regular basis, but the capacity is there.
God expresses his power to us through the capabilities he placed within our physical world.
(05-29-2011 01:17 PM)Vic Wrote: If God can give man a spirit, He can conceive and make a man with His Spirit.If God can make women conceive or not, He can make one conceive without being with a man.
God created the physical world and all the laws that govern it. Including the one that teaches us that a man and a woman produce a child through intimate relations. The Romans, Greeks, Egyptians, and other pagans before Christ rejected God's laws of Creation, which is probably why their gods and emperors were always said to have been born of a virgin and a god. What is known as a demi-god. I think our belief system was ensnared early on by those who understood things from this cultural backround, and could accept Christ's birth in no less of a way than they'd understood their gods before they knew him.
(05-29-2011 01:17 PM)Vic Wrote: Hypocritical because you condemn christians and the church for the Word of God and believing it and abiding doctrine from it, when you reject it. Hypocritical because you say the Bible holds some truth and you believe it but you don't believe it's God's word and don't believe what is in it. Authoritarian in the exact same way you have accused prior believers of the body of Christ, for determining doctrine---based on the word of God, and you now make your own doctrine based outside the word of God and call it sound, logical, reasoned...and it's all your vain imagination puffed up to overturn the Truth of Jesus Christ and salvation to mankind, and specifically the overturning of the NT...and you think others have problems....take a good look Sarah, because the downward slide you are on does not lead to Christ, but further and further away. That you recieve nothing but maintain your own vain doctrine is sad....but Scriptural.
Expressing personal views, thoughts, and understanding is authoritarian?
Are we are automatons with no indivduality?
We are born with the freedom to search and seek to understand our surroundings and why it is we were created. And, there are many things we have to learn through trial and error. The bible cannot give us the first hand experience we need for life.
(05-29-2011 01:17 PM)Vic Wrote: No, I am not passing judgment on you Sarah. I am merely evaluating all you believe to the Scriptures and this is the only conclusion that can be reached. You don't believe the record of the God ordained eyewitnesses of Christ and prophets of God. That record was given so we would have the sound doctrine to be able to discern between good and evil and truth and error. Your posts reek of error, tainted and leavened with unbelief and self determined beliefs....It is not of Christ....but then...you deny the written record of Him so that cannot be a surprise.
There are many NT scholars with higher credentials than myself, who have studied the NT Greek texts (the ones that actually do remain centuries after the originals) that readily admit the errors they contain. Upon this realization it is up to each believer to evaluate what this really means. Can one still be a Christian if they don't believe the bible is inerrant? I believe the answer is yes. Being a Christian should be all encompassing--a way a life.
(05-29-2011 01:17 PM)Vic Wrote: If your late husband knew Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord when he died, did he know Him as a true believer and a "Christian', believing the Truth of the Scriptures including about Christ, the virgin birth and all the prophecies concerning Him? Or did he reject those truths?Was he a bible believing Christian or was he like you, denying the Scriptures as True, and denying the Messianic prophecies and many other truths concerning Christ...because of unbelief?I've read his poems, and his tribute....I have an idea...but perhaps you can clarify when exactly you lost faith...or did you or he ever have it?Would he be in agreement with where you are at in your beliefs?
I still perceive these questions to be a form of manipulation. My husband is not here to answer, and I cannot speak on behalf of him.