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The 'lying scribes' of Jeremiah 8:8 - Mo MHuintir - 04-22-2011 08:29 PM
{VIC NOTE: THis is break off topic from What's the True Name of God thread: }
I hate to jump in (without reading more) and comment on something that has probably been covered extensively, but the issue about the vowel points has been going on for centuries. A great Christian Bible scholar by the name of Peter Whitfield speculated in his writings (in 1748) that the vowels have always existed in written form, since the Torah was given to Moses. But just like today, the leadership of Israel hid the pronounciation of the name. Bible scholars today know that Orthodox Jews will not pronounce the name, saying instead HaShem, Adonai, or Elohim. The State of Israel lists the official name of God as Yehovah, which is an accurate rendering based on the Masoretic vowel points. But since we know that the Jews won't say it outloud, and have actively hidden it for thousands of years (based on their own admission), why would anyone believe that the vowel points placed under YHWH are the true ones. Why think the Creators name (or any theophoric derivative) begins with a Yah, Ye, or a Yo? Wouldn't that defeat the purpose of hiding it, if they went ahead and recorded the correct pointing?
The Hebrew scribes testify against themselves by recording these words in Jeremiah 8:8;
How can you say, 'We are wise,
And the law (Torah) of the Lord is with us'?
Look, the false pen of the scribe certainly works falsehood.
NKJV
RE: What's the True Name of God? - Rose of Shushan - 04-22-2011 08:47 PM
Jer 8:8 How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us? Lo, certainly in vain made he it; the pen of the scribes is in vain.
Jer 8:9 The wise men are ashamed, they are dismayed and taken: lo, they have rejected the word of the LORD; and what wisdom is in them?
I prefer the KJV version since I think it makes clearer what the prophet was saying
I read it as the people having ignored the word of God so the words written by the scribes are in vain since the people were not heeding it.
RE: What's the True Name of God? - Vic - 04-22-2011 10:02 PM
(04-22-2011 08:29 PM)Mo MHuintir Wrote: I hate to jump in (without reading more) and comment on something that has probably been covered extensively, .. A great Christian Bible scholar by the name of Peter Whitfield speculated in his writings (in 1748) that the vowels have always existed in written form, since the Torah was given to Moses. But just like today, the leadership of Israel hid the pronounciation of the name. Bible scholars today know that Orthodox Jews will not pronounce the name, saying instead HaShem, Adonai, or Elohim. The State of Israel lists the official name of God as Yehovah, which is an accurate rendering based on the Masoretic vowel points. But since we know that the Jews won't say it outloud, and have actively hidden it for thousands of years (based on their own admission), why would anyone believe that the vowel points placed under YHWH are the true ones. Why think the Creators name (or any theophoric derivative) begins with a Yah, Ye, or a Yo? Wouldn't that defeat the purpose of hiding it, if they went ahead and recorded the correct pointing?
The Hebrew scribes testify against themselves by recording these words in Jeremiah 8:8;
How can you say, 'We are wise,
And the law (Torah) of the Lord is with us'?
Look, the false pen of the scribe certainly works falsehood.
NKJV
Ahh, the lying scribes argument. Yes this stuff has been extensively covered. And if you read the prior posts, you will see that the Name was said in the Temple, but it was protected from wrong use outside the Temple.
Regarding the lying scribes issue..... I will post in from the HR FAQS and MYTHS... > http://www.seekgod.ca/hr/hrfaqs9a2.htm#lxx
>>>.....As far as the assertion that the LXX is more accurate than the supposedly “intentionally corrupted” Masoretic text family, and is closer to the Hebrew Dead Sea Scroll manuscripts found at Qumran, it is easy to disprove.
Emmanuel Tov, who is a not only recognized as a pre-eminent Dead Sea Scrolls scholar, but also highly recognized as an authority on the LXX, has put together a parallel aligned LXX/Masoretic text program that is recognized and utilized by textual scholars worldwide. Mr Tov reviewed all of the manuscripts found at Qumran, and did a textual comparison and recorded his results. They are as follows:
There were forty six books of Torah related manuscripts, which were used for this particular comparison. Of the forty six, twenty four (52%) were aligned with the Masoretic textual family. Seventeen of the forty six (37%) did not align to the MT, the LXX, or the Samaritan Torah. Three manuscripts (6.5%) were aligned to the Samaritan Torah, and a mere two manuscripts (4.5%) aligned with the LXX.
Many attempt to use Jeremiah 8:8 as the 'proof' of this accusation, while also stating that someone was hired to rewrite everything by 100 AD to overturn the messianic claims of Jesus found in the LXX, and the corrupt Masoretic texts are claimed to be based on those alleged writings. Here's Jeremiah 8:8:
Jeremiah 8:8 How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us? Lo, certainly in vain made he it; the pen of the scribes is in vain.
However the context isn't about them writing the Word of God, but merely promoting their own vanities and prophets were giving false prophesies and claiming them to be of God.
Jeremiah 23:30-32 Therefore, behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that steal my words every one from his neighbour. 31. Behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that use their tongues, and say, He saith. 32. Behold, I am against them that prophesy false dreams, saith the LORD, and do tell them, and cause my people to err by their lies, and by their lightness; yet I sent them not, nor commanded them: therefore they shall not profit this people at all, saith the LORD.
Jeremiah 23:34-36 And as for the prophet, and the priest, and the people, that shall say, The burden of the LORD, I will even punish that man and his house. 35. Thus shall ye say every one to his neighbour, and every one to his brother, What hath the LORD answered? and, What hath the LORD spoken? 36. And the burden of the LORD shall ye mention no more: for every man's word shall be his burden; for ye have perverted the words of the living God, of the LORD of hosts our God
The book of Jeremiah was about Judah going after idols and Baal and not keeping God's commandments. If we go back to chapter 7 we see God calling His people back to obedience to Him and the realities of their disobedience and the coming consequences. Let's go back to chapter 7 and see what is happening:
Jeremiah 7:1-3 The word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying, 2. Stand in the gate of the LORD'S house, and proclaim there this word, and say, Hear the word of the LORD, all ye of Judah, that enter in at these gates to worship the LORD. 3. Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, Amend your ways and your doings, and I will cause you to dwell in this place.
4 Trust ye not in lying words, saying, The temple of the LORD, The temple of the LORD, The temple of the LORD, are these. 5. For if ye throughly amend your ways and your doings; if ye throughly execute judgment between a man and his neighbour;...
9 Will ye steal, murder, and commit adultery, and swear falsely, and burn incense unto Baal, and walk after other gods whom ye know not; 10. And come and stand before me in this house, which is called by my name, and say, We are delivered to do all these abominations? 11. Is this house, which is called by my name, become a den of robbers in your eyes? Behold, even I have seen it, saith the LORD.
7:23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.
7:26-28 Yet they hearkened not unto me, nor inclined their ear, but hardened their neck: they did worse than their fathers. ... 28. But thou shalt say unto them, This is a nation that obeyeth not the voice of the LORD their God, nor receiveth correction: truth is perished, and is cut off from their mouth.
7:30 For the children of Judah have done evil in my sight, saith the LORD: they have set their abominations in the house which is called by my name, to pollute it.
Jeremiah 8:3 And death shall be chosen rather than life by all the residue of them that remain of this evil family, which remain in all the places whither I have driven them, saith the LORD of hosts. 4 Moreover thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith the LORD; Shall they fall, and not arise? shall he turn away, and not return? 5 Why then is this people of Jerusalem slidden back by a perpetual backsliding? they hold fast deceit, they refuse to return.
Jeremiah 8:6 I hearkened and heard, but they spake not aright: no man repented him of his wickedness, saying, What have I done? [/b]every one turned to his course, as the horse rusheth into the battle 7 Yea, the stork in the heaven knoweth her appointed times; and the turtle and the crane and the swallow observe the time of their coming; but my people know not the judgment of the LORD.
8. How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us? Lo, certainly in vain made he it; the pen of the scribes is in vain.
9. The wise men are ashamed, they are dismayed and taken: lo, they have rejected the word of the LORD; and what wisdom is in them? 10. Therefore will I give their wives unto others, and their fields to them that shall inherit them: for every one from the least even unto the greatest is given to covetousness, from the prophet even unto the priest every one dealeth falsely. 11. For they have healed the hurt of the daughter of my people slightly, saying, Peace, peace; when there is no peace.
Jeremiah 9:13 And the LORD saith, Because they have forsaken my law which I set before them, and have not obeyed my voice, neither walked therein;
Jeremiah 9:14 But have walked after the imagination of their own heart, and after Baalim, which their fathers taught them:
Verse 8:7 points out that the people do not know the requirements of the Lord, not that they do not have them. Even when the scribes were copying the books of the Law and the Prophets available at that time, (about 600 + BC) it meant nothing to them--it was vanity. They didn't need to change anything, just as people today don't need to actually change the Word of God, although many do, they merely have to interpret it incorrectly or ignore it. The scribe, teachers, and prophets were claiming everything was good with what they were doing according to the Law, when in fact it was all lies to the people. And Jeremiah verses 8:9 shows they were rejecting the word of the Lord and applying it falsely, not corrupting/rewriting the actual text.
If the messianic prophecies had all been changed then Jeremiah would not contain any...
Jeremiah 23:1-6 Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD. 2. Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the LORD. 3. And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase. 4. And I will set up shepherds over them which shall feed them: and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, neither shall they be lacking, saith the LORD. 5.Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. 6. In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
If we look closely at what is being said in Jeremiah 8:8, we note this:.
Jeremiah 8:8 How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us? Lo, certainly in vain made he it; the pen of the scribes is in vain(KJV)
Jeremiah 8:8 showing Strong's Hebrew numbers:
HowH349 do ye say,H559 WeH587 are wise,H2450 and the lawH8451 of the LORDH3068 is withH854 us? Lo,H2009 certainlyH403 in vainH8267 madeH6213 he it; the penH5842 of the scribesH5608 is in vain.H8267
From the Jewish Publication Society Bible of 1917, meaning the OT:
Jeremiah 8:8 How do ye say: 'We are wise, and the Law of the LORD is with us'? Lo, certainly in vain hath wrought the vain pen of the scribes. (JPS 1917 electronic version)
8 How do ye say: 'We are wise, and the Law of HaShem is with us'? Lo, certainly in vain hath wrought the vain pen of the scribes. (JPS 1917-hareidi.org)
Eichah tomru chachamim anachnu v'torot YHVH itanu ;achen hineh lasheker asah, et sheker sofrim
This seems to imply that the false application and teaching of the Law by the scribes were making the Law vain .The Hebrew word lasheker in Strong's concordance means it can be a lie, vanity, sham.
Proverbs 30:5-6 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. 6. Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
The scribes were responsible for teaching the Law and its spiritual application. By the misapplication and wrong teaching they were making the law vain, a sham or a lie. Jesus accused the scribes of the same thing in the New Testament.
Matthew 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
Matthew 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
5 But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;
6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
Matthew 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Thanks to Jesus himself we know that the Bible we have with us today is true and to be trusted. He said that he did not come to abolish the Law or Prophets but to fulfill them, so we know that the prophets' writings as were available in the time of Jesus, and before, were true and authentic. Otherwise Jesus would have brought out that point. Instead He affirms their witness and states that He himself is the fulfillment of what they pointed to.
Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spoke unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
2 Peter 1:19-21 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 20. Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
We also know that the New Testament, which encompassed the writings concerning Christ and what the New Covenant entails is also viewed as Scripture inspired by God and protected...."
[split] What's the True Name of God? - Mo MHuintir - 04-23-2011 12:27 AM
Jeremiah does refer to the written word. When you stated;
"However the context isn't about them writing the Word of God, but merely promoting their own vanities and prophets were giving false prophesies and claiming them to be of God."
that was an incorrect interpretation. Jeremiah does comment about the false prophets and their lying words;
Jer 2:8
The prophets prophesied by Baal,
NKJV
Jer 5:31
The prophets prophesy falsely,
NKJV
But in 8:8, Jeremiah makes it a point to say "et sheqer" the lying pen. In other places he refers to lying words, but here he specifically says a pen. By use of the waw consecutive, he ties the lying pen contextually to the torah, the written word of Yhwh.
When Yhwh gave Israel the Torah (the 10 words or utterances); Moses himself testified,
These words the Lord spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. Deut 5:22 KJV
"and he added no more."
Who then added the other 603?
This is the heavy burden that Christ referred to in Matt 23:13. Namely, the oral Mishpah, that would become the Torah Mishnah. It is a corruption of the original Torah given to Moses,
"Love Yhwh with all your heart, and your neighbor as yourself."
RE: What's the True Name of God? - Rose of Shushan - 04-23-2011 08:03 AM
Quote:But in 8:8, Jeremiah makes it a point to say "et sheqer" the lying pen. In other places he refers to lying words, but here he specifically says a pen. By use of the waw consecutive, he ties the lying pen contextually to the torah, the written word of Yhwh.
Did you miss the part that Vic posted about the other meanings of sheker? By the way I have no idea what you mean by the vav consecutive.I will post you the part of the verse where it says
אָכֵן הִנֵּה לַשֶּׁקֶר עָשָׂה, עֵט שֶׁקֶר סֹפְרִים
No vav's there so I don't know what you mean about that perhaps you would explain.
The et sheker is indeed saying lying/vain or useless pen but from the context it seems to be saying the writing of the scribes was useless or in vain.
RE: What's the True Name of God? - Vic - 04-23-2011 07:00 PM
(04-23-2011 12:27 AM)Mo MHuintir Wrote: Jeremiah does refer to the written word. When you stated;
"However the context isn't about them writing the Word of God, but merely promoting their own vanities and prophets were giving false prophesies and claiming them to be of God."
that was an incorrect interpretation. Jeremiah does comment about the false prophets and their lying words;
...But in 8:8, Jeremiah makes it a point to say "et sheqer" the lying pen. In other places he refers to lying words, but here he specifically says a pen. By use of the waw consecutive, he ties the lying pen contextually to the torah, the written word of Yhwh.
When Yhwh gave Israel the Torah (the 10 words or utterances); Moses himself testified,
These words the Lord spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. Deut 5:22 KJV
"and he added no more."
Who then added the other 603?
This is the heavy burden that Christ referred to in Matt 23:13. Namely, the oral Mishpah, that would become the Torah Mishnah. It is a corruption of the original Torah given to Moses,
"Love Yhwh with all your heart, and your neighbor as yourself."
Hi Bill,
I believe it is imperative to always look at the context, which is shown in my prior post concerning what ch 7 and 8 were about and other passages, what was being presented previously about Israel's disobedience and sin.
And please look carefully at this, and this is totally my understanding.:
Jer 8:8 How do ye say, [God asking Israel, how can you say] We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us? [He had already pointed out they weren't abiding the Law and serving Him] Lo, certainly in vain made he it; [God made the Law and it was obviously in vain or pointless because Israel was rejecting it] the pen of the scribes is in vain. [therefore, the scribes' job of copying the Book, was totally in vain because they weren't abiding it]
Jer 8:9 The wise men are ashamed, they are dismayed and taken: [some were ashamed and dismayed] lo, they have rejected the word of the LORD; [Israel had REJECTED the word of the Lord--- if they had changed it or made it all up, as you are implying, I think God would have said---they have CHANGED the word of the Lord] and what wisdom is in them?
rejected >
H3988
מאס
mâ'as
BDB Definition:
1) to reject, despise, refuse
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to reject, refuse
1a2) to despise
1b) (Niphal) to be rejected
2) (Niphal) to flow, run
Part of Speech:
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: a primitive root
Same Word by TWOT Number: 1139, 1140
In order to have rejected the word of the Lord and the law, that means it had to be there for them. Vain means more than lying; sheqer means more than lying. You have to look at the context.
Doing something "in vain" means that something being done has the exact same outcome as if it had never been done. It's pointless, or fruitless. Copying the Scriptures as the scribes were called to do, and claiming to believe and live to them was totally in vain, because they weren't living to God, but to themselves. They rejected God's word. They didn't change it, they just didn't apply it or live by it, even though they claimed to, as the related passages show.
H8267
שׁקר
sheqer
BDB Definition:
1) lie, deception, disappointment, falsehood
1a) deception (what deceives or disappoints or betrays one)
1b) deceit, fraud, wrong
1b1) fraudulently, wrongfully (as adverb)
1c) falsehood (injurious in testimony)
1c1) testify falsehood, false oath, swear falsely
1d) falsity (of false or self-deceived prophets)
1e) lie, falsehood (in general)
1e1) false tongue
1f) in vain
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: from H8266
shaqar on the other hand means
H8266
שׁקר
shâqar
BDB Definition:
1) to do or deal falsely, be false, trick, cheat
1a) (Piel) to deal falsely
1b) (Qal) to deal falsely
Part of Speech: verb
Let's see some parallel concepts about claiming to abide the laws but in fact were not and instead were teaching things that were contrary to it. The law, meaning the given Sinai covenant is still there and provable by the Scripture God provided, but, ...
Mat 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
Mat 15:4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
Mat 15:5 But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;
Mat 15:6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
Mat 15:7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
Mat 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
Mat 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
transgress
G3845
παραβαίνω
parabainō
Thayer Definition:
1) to go by the side of
2) to go past or pass over without touching a thing
3) to overstep, neglect, violate, transgress
4) so to go past as to turn aside from
4a) to depart, leave, be turned from
5) one who abandons his trust
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G3844 and the base of G939
in vain
G3155
μάτην
matēn
mat'-ane
Accusative case of a derivative of the base of G3145 (through the idea of tentative manipulation, that is, unsuccessful search, or else of punishment); folly, that is, (adverbially) to no purpose: - in vain.
G3155
μάτην
matēn
Thayer Definition:
1) in vain, fruitlessly
Part of Speech: adverb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: accus. of a derivative of the base of G3145 (through the idea of tentative manipulation, i.e. unsuccessful search, or else of punishment)
none effect
G208
ἀκυρόω
akuroō
ak-oo-ro'-o
From G1 (as a negative particle) and G2964; to invalidate: - disannul, make of none effect.
Psa 119:125 I am thy servant; give me understanding, that I may know thy testimonies.
Psa 119:126 It is time for thee, LORD, to work: for they have made void thy law.
made void H6565
פּרר
pârar
BDB Definition:
1) to break, frustrate
1a) (Hiphil)
1a1) to break, violate
1a2) to frustrate, make ineffectual
1b) (Hophal)
1b1) to be frustrated
1b2) to be broken
1b3) to break
1c) (Pilpel) to break to bits, shatter
2) to split, divide
2a) (Qal) to split, crack through
2b) (Poel) to break apart
2c) (Hithpoel) to be split, be cracked through
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: a primitive root
Same Word by TWOT Number: 1829, 1830, 1831
If the scribes had corrupted or changed the Scriptures and none of it is of God, then what logic would it be, to put a verse in saying that it was all lies?
If some of it is of God, could you please tell me how we know that, and who determines what is and is not of God?
If the intent was to mislead and deceive people as you say, why would the scribes say they lied?
Wouldn't that be like shooting oneself in the foot? Like--hey I planned to deceive you all with what I am writing, but not to worry, you can believe it's true. 
Does that sound realistic at all?
And if they did as you say, there is not one Scripture we can claim as being of God. Because not one person would be able to discern the difference of what was given by God -- and which then the scribes allowed to exist in amongst their lies--- and what was all fabrication, Because the scribes recorded all the Scriptures. That means, we have no Scriptures. That kind of finishes the history from Creation, to Israel, to Judaism and Christianity; declaration and belief in God and certainly Jesus Christ. Because as He said,
Luk 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
Luk 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
Luk 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
Luk 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
I kind of think God is much bigger than that.
Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
Rom 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? :2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
Neh 9:13 Thou camest down also upon mount Sinai, and spakest with them from heaven, and gavest them right judgments, and true laws, good statutes and commandments:
Neh 9:14 And madest known unto them thy holy sabbath, and commandedst them precepts, statutes, and laws, by the hand of Moses thy servant:
Lev 27:34 These are the commandments, which ]the LORD commanded Moses for the children of Israel in mount Sinai.
Joh 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
Psa 78:1 <Maschil of Asaph.> Give ear, O my people, to my law: incline your ears to the words of my mouth.
Psa 78:2 I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old:
Psa 78:3 Which we have heard and known, and our fathers have told us.
Psa 78:4 We will not hide them from their children, shewing to the generation to come the praises of the LORD, and his strength, and his wonderful works that he hath done.
Psa 78:5 For he established a testimony in Jacob, and appointed a law in Israel, which he commanded our fathers, that they should make them known to their children:
Psa 78:6 That the generation to come might know them, even the children which should be born; who should arise and declare them to their children:
Act 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
Act 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
Act 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
2Sa 23:1 Now these be the last words of David. David the son of Jesse said, and the man who was raised up on high, the anointed of the God of Jacob, and the sweet psalmist of Israel, said, 2 The Spirit of the LORD spake by me, and his word was in my tongue.
Mat 26:53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?
Mat 26:54 But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?
Mat 26:56 But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then all the disciples forsook him, and fled.
Luk 1:70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:
2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
RE: What's the True Name of God? - Mo MHuintir - 04-24-2011 10:24 AM
I must say, I appreciate the time you took to respond to this post. I know how long it takes to do that kind of research.
I too believe it is imperative to understand the context of the saying.
How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of the Lord is with us? Lo, certainly in vain made he it; the pen of the scribes is in vain. Jer 8:8 KJV
Sheqer (8267) is used over 100 times throughout the scriptures. It is rendered in the following ways;
false (20 times), falsely (13x), falsehood (13x), lying (22x), lie[s](28x), wrongfully (4x), without a cause (1x), deceitful (2x), deceit (1x), feighnedly (1x), prophecy a lie (1x), liar (1x), and lastly, vain (6x).
Since the definition for “vain” is to be useless or meaningless, I don’t think the KJV translators made the best choice when choosing this word. Especially since the word “sheqer” is translated almost 90% of the time to mean “false” or “a lie.”
In essence the translators were saying, it was useless for God to have made the Torah, because the scribes have rendered it meaningless by their rejection of His word.
You made a similar point when you said;
“They rejected God's word. They didn't change it, they just didn't apply it or live by it, even though they claimed to, as the related passages show.”
I think this is why the translators of the New King James version changed the translation to read;
"How can you say, 'We are wise,
And the law of the Lord is with us'?
Look, the false pen of the scribe certainly works falsehood. Jer 8:8 NKJV
They removed the word vain, making the falsehood a cognitive action reflexive upon the scribes and their writings.
You wrote (Part a):
“If the scribes had corrupted or changed the Scriptures and none of it is of God,...”
This is an incorrect statement. I never said “none of it is of God.”
(Part b); “....then what logic would it be, to put a verse in saying that it was all lies?
This is an overstatement. The verse doesn’t say it was -all- lies.
You wrote, “If the intent was to mislead and deceive people as you say, why would the scribes say they lied?”
I can only believe that the scribes who later recorded the accusation Jeremiah made, felt compelled to do so by the leading of the Holy Spirit.
You wrote;
And if they did as you say, there is not one Scripture we can claim as being of God. Because not one person would be able to discern the difference of what was given by God
Of course they would be able to discern, in the same way that you do. You have the Spirit of the living God in your heart! He, the Holy Spirit, is your truth filter.
“My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.” John 10:27-28 KJV
Since no man can pluck them out of his hand, how then can they be mislead by a scribe?
Since, “...neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. [Rom 8:38-39]..how can.the lying pen of the scribe prevail?
You wrote; “That means, we have no Scriptures.”
Before there were any scriptures, God credited Abraham with righteousness (James 2:23) and called him his friend, because he followed his Torah (Gen 26:5). That was about 500 years before the Torah was written.
To get back to my original point, the fact that the scribes were accused by Jeremiah of lying, doesn’t surprise me since it ‘s common knowledge today that the Masoretes altered the vowel points of Yhwh (they lied) to deliberately hide the pronunciation of the name of God (contrary to God’s command of Ex 3:15). Then they lied about the secondary set of vowel points they used to replace the original and correct rendering. They were supposed to be those of “adonai,” but are not. So why should we believe that the current set of vowel points, that produce the sound “Ye ho” are genuine?
I don’t.
[split] What's the True Name of God? - Vic - 04-30-2011 06:34 PM
(04-24-2011 10:24 AM)Mo MHuintir Wrote: I must say, I appreciate the time you took to respond to this post. I know how long it takes to do that kind of research.
Thank you Bill. I always think it's best to not just post opinion. God's Word can defend itself, and facts and languages issues can be discussed.
Quote:Sheqer (8267) is used over 100 times throughout the scriptures. It is rendered in the following ways;
false (20 times), falsely (13x), falsehood (13x), lying (22x), lie[s](28x), wrongfully (4x), without a cause (1x), deceitful (2x), deceit (1x), feighnedly (1x), prophecy a lie (1x), liar (1x), and lastly, vain (6x).
Since the definition for “vain” is to be useless or meaningless, I don’t think the KJV translators made the best choice when choosing this word. Especially since the word “sheqer” is translated almost 90% of the time to mean “false” or “a lie.”
In essence the translators were saying, it was useless for God to have made the Torah, because the scribes have rendered it meaningless by their rejection of His word.
You made a similar point when you said;
“They rejected God's word. They didn't change it, they just didn't apply it or live by it, even though they claimed to, as the related passages show.”
Bill, I am not sure where you got your stats for Sheqer use, but this shows what was used in the KJV from the KJC [107 times] and presented in this order.> false (20 times), lies [18] lying [18] falsehood (13x), falsely (13x); lie[8x], vain [6]; wrongfully (4x), deceitful (2x), cause (1x), deceit (1x), feignedly (1x), liar (1x),without [1].
The point is Bill, it isn't always used for false or a lie, just as you have shown. It does have other uses, as with most Hebrew words ( and just as in english and other languages), and this verse shows one of the 14 uses. You missed that the verses that use vain or in vain, are
Exo 5:9, 1Sa 25:21, Psa 33:17, Jer 3:23, Jer 8:8 (2)
Look at the context of a few of these with that usage.
Jer 3:22 Return, ye backsliding children, and I will heal your backslidings. Behold, we come unto thee; for thou art the LORD our God.
Jer 3:23 Truly in vain is salvation hoped for from the hills, and from the multitude of mountains: truly in the LORD our God is the salvation of Israel.
Jer 3:24 For shame hath devoured the labour of our fathers from our youth; their flocks and their herds, their sons and their daughters.
Jer 3:25 We lie down in our shame, and our confusion covereth us: for we have sinned against the LORD our God, we and our fathers, from our youth even unto this day, and have not obeyed the voice of the LORD our God.
1Sa 25:21 Now David had said, Surely in vain have I kept all that this fellow hath in the wilderness, so that nothing was missed of all that pertained unto him: and he hath requited me evil for good.
Even traditional Judaism stresses that context determines meaning in Hebrew. Context shows it to be 'in vain.' Context plays a huge part in translating from one language to another. You have to know and understand the language you are translating from as well as the language being translated to.
Quote:You wrote (Part a):
“If the scribes had corrupted or changed the Scriptures and none of it is of God,...”
This is an incorrect statement. I never said “none of it is of God.”
The problem is Bill, you aren't saying what is of God and what all isn't of God. You are suggesting that pretty much all of what is attributed to Moses' writing other than the 10 commandments, to be not of God but' by 'the lying pen of the scribes'.
My question is, how do you know that? How do you determine what is of God in the Scriptures, and what isn't. How do you know what scribes and when, they added to and took away from the Scriptures? What year in history did they allegedly do this? How many books in the bible have been tampered with? How do you know what is the true Word of God?
Which scribes added the verse about the scribes pen being in vain Bill? How do you know it wasn't just added in to cause confusion, based on it meaning as you say, the scribes wrote lies into the Scriptures? Which things are lies, when and how...
Quote:(Part b); “....then what logic would it be, to put a verse in saying that it was all lies?
This is an overstatement. The verse doesn’t say it was -all- lies.
You wrote, “If the intent was to mislead and deceive people as you say, why would the scribes say they lied?”
I can only believe that the scribes who later recorded the accusation Jeremiah made, felt compelled to do so by the leading of the Holy Spirit.
That doesn't make any sense to me Bill. You have to be able to say which scribes deceived the people, what they changed and when, with clear documentation and absolute proof. Speculation doesn't cut it. And here's why. Aside from the very essence of believing that God gave His Word and protected it so we would have the record of all from Genesis 1:1 forward. But when God chose Israel, despite knowing they would disobey, follow other gods, rebel, through it all, they had the privilege of guarding the record of all those things God gave. It is believed that the Hebrew Scriptures were completed in the days of Ezra and Nehemiah--about 420bc [Ezra 7:14]
Ezr 7:6 This Ezra went up from Babylon; and he was a ready scribe in the law of Moses, which the LORD God of Israel had given: and the king granted him all his request, according to the hand of the LORD his God upon him. Neh_8:1 2Ch_25:4; 2Ch_35:12; Neh_13:1
We know that copies of the original laws as given by God through Moses were duplicated by the levites and the king--by God's command.
Deu 17:18 And it shall be, when he sitteth upon the throne of his kingdom, that he shall write him a copy of this law in a book out of that which is before the priests the Levites:
Deu 17:19 And it shall be with him, and he shall read therein all the days of his life: that he may learn to fear the LORD his God, to keep all the words of this law and these statutes, to do them:
Deu 17:20 That his heart be not lifted up above his brethren, and that he turn not aside from the commandment, to the right hand, or to the left: to the end that he may prolong his days in his kingdom, he, and his children, in the midst of Israel.
That was the beginning of the sacred trust given to the Levites to safeguard the Scriptures. We know that Israel viewed the Scriptures as divinely inspired and sacred, and believed the warnings about not adding to or taking away from them...
Deu 31:24 And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished,
Deu 31:25 That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying,
Deu 31:26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.
We also know that Ezra and Nehemiah, for example, sourced the book of Moses, in
2Ch 25:4 But he slew not their children, but did as it is written in the law in the book of Moses, where the LORD commanded, saying, The fathers shall not die for the children, neither shall the children die for the fathers, but every man shall die for his own sin.
2Ch 35:12 And they removed the burnt offerings, that they might give according to the divisions of the families of the people, to offer unto the LORD, as it is written in the book of Moses. And so did they with the oxen.
Ezr 6:18 And they set the priests in their divisions, and the Levites in their courses, for the service of God, which is at Jerusalem; as it is written in the book of Moses.
Neh 13:1 On that day they read in the book of Moses in the audience of the people; and therein was found written, that the Ammonite and the Moabite should not come into the congregation of God for ever;
Although the books were missing for a time, the writings of Moses, which contained all the law, were discovered in the Temple in the reign of Josiah, and which a high priest found 2 Ch 34:14, "a book of the law of the LORD given by Moses"
Ezra a priest, about 150 yrs after Jeremiah. He collected and put together all the sacred writings aka books of the law, and the prophets and the writings. The oldest material in the Bible is from about the 13th century BC. If the scribes had corrupted something in the actual historical writings, we can assume God would have conveyed exactly what through His prophets, and since the Jews knew how to identify as either a false or real prophet of God, acccording to the law of Moses.. God made no bones about rebuking them through the prophets for rebellion and rejecting His Word. Ezra compiled the sacred writings into 22 books--they placed the minor prophets as one, and a few other differences to arrive at that count.. The very definition of scribe was to count and record, and they did so by counting letters and spaces. Everything was safeguarded for accuracy.:
The thing is, because the people viewed the Scriptures as sacred and their job to protect them, even when they were in rebellion the scribes were still guardians of it all. Those 22 books, once compiled together by Ezra, were accepted as being canon. Partly because after Ezra and the minor prophets finished prophesying, the Jews believed the Spirit of God was removed, and no prophecies were made. That fully relates to the silence of 400 years between the Hebrew Bible and the fulfillment of those prophecies concerning Christ, starting with a 'voice crying in the wilderness', who was the fulfillment of Elijah to come, as Jesus said.
Mat 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
Mat 11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
Mat 11:14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.
Mal 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
Mal 4:6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers,lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.
THe thing is, if the writings were inaccurate, and had been tampered with, that means Jesus could not have used them or would have said they were not to be trusted, and which ones were not to be trusted. But instead, He quoted from them concerning Himself and said:
Luk 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
Luk 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
Luk 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
And what did Moses write concerning Christ for example:
Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Gen 49:10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.
Gen 49:11 Binding his foal unto the vine, and his *****'s colt unto the choice vine; he washed his garments in wine, and his clothes in the blood of grapes:
Gen 49:12 His eyes shall be red with wine, and his teeth white with milk.
Num 21:8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.
Joh 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
And Deu 18:15-19, etc.
Therefore, Bill, for you to suggest that what Moses wrote in those first five books of the Bible as being from 'lying scribes', means you must also not only disqualify the NT and all that Jesus said..., but must also include the Messianic prophecies.
Quote:You wrote;
And if they did as you say, there is not one Scripture we can claim as being of God. Because not one person would be able to discern the difference of what was given by God
Of course they would be able to discern, in the same way that you do. You have the Spirit of the living God in your heart! He, the Holy Spirit, is your truth filter.
Bill, the word kathab [H3789] is used 223 times in the KJB. As > written 138x ; write 35x; wrote 34x; describe 4x; described 2x; subscribe, 2; subscribed, 2 ; writest, 2 ; prescribed, 1; recorded, 1; writeth, 1; writing, 1
H5612 sêpher / siphrâh
>book 136x; letters, 16x; letter, 13x; evidence, 6x; bill, 4; learned, 3; books, 2; evidences, 2; learning, 2; register, 1; scroll 1x
God not only gave the things to be written down, it was for our learning, for having a record to be able to turn to about God, and to know the Truth of the Gospel, as well as a historical written record which can be counted on as being inspired and protected by God.
Exo 17:14 And the LORD said unto Moses, Write this for a memorial in a book, and rehearse it in the ears of Joshua...
Jer 25:13 And I will bring upon that land all my words which I have pronounced against it, even all that is written in this book, which Jeremiah hath prophesied against all the nations.
Luk 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
Luk 4:17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
Luk 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
Luk 4:19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
Luk 4:20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
Luk 4:21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.
Mat 26:24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.
Mar 7:6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. 7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Joh 20:30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
Joh 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
Joh 21:24 This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true.
Joh 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.
The written Scriptures were given so we would not be bound to men's imaginations and made up doctrines. Rather we have the Word so we can prove our doctrine to it.
Quote:Since no man can pluck them out of his hand, how then can they be mislead by a scribe?
Since, “...neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. [Rom 8:38-39]..how can.the lying pen of the scribe prevail?
You wrote; “That means, we have no Scriptures.”
Before there were any scriptures, God credited Abraham with righteousness (James 2:23) and called him his friend, because he followed his Torah (Gen 26:5). That was about 500 years before the Torah was written.
God spoke directly to people in the Hebrew Scriptures. He spoke directly with Adam and Eve and Abraham and the prophets. He now speaks to us through the Scriptures with the Holy Spirit giving understanding. The apostles viewed the Hebrew Scriptures as true and Jesus commanded them to teach what He had taught them and then as the Holy Spirit taught. They were given a very specific task of laying the doctrinal foundations for the church while preaching the Gospel and the truth of the New Covenant. No one else can come up with new doctrine. It must be able to stand the test of Scripture. That is why it is recorded for us, plus the eyewitnesses of Christ with their testimony of Him needed to be recorded. You cannot equate what took place before Christ with what took place after Christ died and rose again. We now have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to give us the understanding that Jesus in person, 'opened their understanding'.
Quote:To get back to my original point, the fact that the scribes were accused by Jeremiah of lying, doesn’t surprise me since it ‘s common knowledge today that the Masoretes altered the vowel points of Yhwh (they lied) to deliberately hide the pronunciation of the name of God (contrary to God’s command of Ex 3:15). Then they lied about the secondary set of vowel points they used to replace the original and correct rendering. They were supposed to be those of “adonai,” but are not. So why should we believe that the current set of vowel points, that produce the sound “Ye ho” are genuine?
I don’t.
Here's the problem. Since you can't say when or who or what was 'changed' by the "lying scribes' you are on sinking sand. Because you said that they made up all the law of Moses-except the 10 commandments. Now you say the Masoretes are the culprits for changing the vowel points...so which is it? The canon was closed and included the first five books written by Moses which included all that we see today. The Masoretes didn't compile those, Ezra did, but he didnt write them. And that was After Jeremiah. So...who are the lying scribes that did that? And has there just been one series of liars after another and which ones are the ones to be trusted? Which ones of the books of the Bible are accurate? I really need to know.
Why would you believe that the virtually non existant prefix of yah for names to be accurate when salvation is 'H3444
ישׁוּעה
yeshû‛âh
Or is that all lies too? Is the Biblical Hebrew that has come down through the ages all lies? If not, which is the true Biblical Hebrew and how do you know? I really need some documentation here and not from such as Jeff Benner or similar. Thanks.
RE: What's the True Name of God? - Mo MHuintir - 05-02-2011 01:01 AM
Vic, I don’t understand why you feel its necessary to resort to belittling to make your point. You emphasize scholarship, but those are hardly the tools of a scholar.
When you write, "You have to know and understand the language you are translating from as well as the language being translated to."
you're inferring that not only do I not understand Hebrew, I don't even know and understand English (my native tongue). That’s absurd.
You wrote, “I am not sure where you got your stats for Sheqer use.”
I got them from the KJV and Strong’s concordance.
You wrote; “The point is Bill, it isn't always used for false or a lie”
I didn’t say it was always used for false or a lie. I said “sheqer” was used for “vain” only six times (as you did). My point was, when the KJV translators used the word vain in connection with the Torah, it gave the false impression that God wrote the Torah in vain because the leaders of Israel (in general) did not obey it. This was a mistake subsequently corrected by the translators of the New King James Version.
You wrote; "The problem is Bill, you aren't saying what is of God and what all isn't of God. You are suggesting that pretty much all of what is attributed to Moses' writing other than the 10 commandments, to be not of God but' by 'the lying pen of the scribes'."
This is exactly what I’m saying - with an explanation.
The original (eternal) Torah is simple and concise
(For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light. Matt 11:30 KJV);
Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart [and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind]. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. Matt 22:37-40 KJV
I believe this was the commandment written on the first two tablets given to Moses at Mount Sinai. The Hebrews could not receive this Torah (in their hearts) because they were a stiffnecked people. So they were given the law of Moses, the 10 commandments; which was derived by subdividing the original Torah into 10 do’s and don’ts.
The 603 additional statutes and ordinances that the Rabbi’s would eventually codify in the Mishnah Torah, is not the Torah, neither was it the Law of Moses.
I believe the scriptures bear out this supposition, from what took place in Joshua 8:30-32
"Then Joshua built an altar unto the Lord God of Israel in mount Ebal, As Moses the servant of the Lord commanded the children of Israel, as it is written in the book of the law of Moses, an altar of whole stones, over which no man hath lift up any iron: and they offered thereon burnt offerings unto the Lord, and sacrificed peace offerings. And he wrote there upon the stones a copy of the law of Moses, which he wrote in the presence of the children of Israel." KJV
He wrote a copy of the Law of Moses while the children of Israel waited. I did a word count on the Book of Leviticus alone. There are approximately 22,600+ words; which translates into 92,500+ characters (letters). When writing the text, if I allow for a ½" of surface space for each character, I can fit 4 letters in a square inch. 92,500.divided by 4 equals 23,125. square inches. Divide that by 12 to determine the square footage and you have 1,927 square feet; or a surface area of 44 feet wide by 44 feet tall. That’s a big rock. Even if you divide that into several rocks (as the verse says) that’s several big rocks.
I can write 50 letters in Paleo Hebrew per minute. That means it would take me 1850 minutes or about 31 non stop hours. Since the Hebrew word “Kathab” means “to graven,” and the medium being written upon is stone; the text suggests that Joshua carved the Law of Moses into the stone altar. I didn’t even try to calculate the time it would take to do that, because it stands to reason that the entire assembly of Israel could not have stood in front of him, for that length of time, waiting for him to finish the carving and then read the writing.
“And he wrote there upon the stones a copy of the law of Moses, which he wrote in the presence of the children of Israel. And all Israel, and their elders, and officers, and their judges, stood on this side the ark and on that side before the priests the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the Lord, as well the stranger, as he that was born among them; half of them over against mount Gerizim, and half of them over against mount Ebal; as Moses the servant of the Lord had commanded before, that they should bless the people of Israel. And afterward he read all the words of the law, the blessings and cursings, according to all that is written in the book of the law. There was not a word of all that Moses commanded, which Joshua read not before all the congregation of Israel, with the women, and the little ones, and the strangers that were conversant among them." Josh 8:32-35 KJV
I believe what Joshua wrote here was the 10 commandments, and not the 22,600+ words said to be the Law of Moses. This is what has been falsified by the scribes. Especially all that which encompasses the practice of redundant animal sacrifices.
"Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; Put your burnt offerings unto your sacrifices, and eat flesh. For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices: But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you." Jer 7:21-23 KJV
God is saying here that he did not command the Fathers of Israel, when He brought them out of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices. It couldn’t be any more plain than that.
[ This same message is expressed in Ps 40:6, Ps 51:15-17, Isa 1:11-15, Heb 10:5; to name a few.]
If God didn’t command them in this matter, where did the idea come from? Simple, it belongs to the worship of the goddess Innana. Archaeologists discovered the Vase of Urak during an dig in Shinar.. The people of Uruk (founded by Nimrod, Gen 10:10) worshipped the Moon God Nanna (also known as Sin, as in Mount Sinai), the Moon Goddess Ningal, and her daughter Innana (also referred to as the Queen of Heaven or the Queen of the South). Depicted on the vase (1700 years before the Exodus) are the same offerings and sacrifices the Hebrews were allegedly commanded to perform. Who was it that first offered sacrifices to God after the Exodus? Moses? No, it was Jethro, the High Priest of Midian (a polytheistic pagan).
There is no way around this testimony Moses gave after he received the 2 tablets from God;
These words the Lord spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me. Deut 5:22 KJV
“He (God) added no more.” Did God change His mind? No. I can only conclude then that man added the rest. This is the main reason why I equate the Messianics with the 1st Century Judaizers. The ones that I have known usually compel their members to follow the 613 laws.
You wrote,"My question is, how do you know that? How do you determine what is of God in the Scriptures, and what isn't."
You know the answer to this. Trust in the leading of the Holy Spirit.
You worte, "How do you know what scribes and when, they added to and took away from the Scriptures? What year in history did they allegedly do this?"
Jeremiah did not give us all of the details when he originally made the accusation. Whatever falsehood the scribes are guilty of, it will be made known by the Spirit of Truth, just as I have discovered the truth of the matter.
You wrote, "Here's the problem. Since you can't say when or who or what was 'changed' by the "lying scribes' you are on sinking sand."
As I said, I can’t say when or who, but I have shown you what was added.
You wrote, "Because you said that they made up all the law of Moses-except the 10 commandments. Now you say the Masoretes are the culprits for changing the vowel points...so which is it? The canon was closed and included the first five books written by Moses which included all that we see today. The Masoretes didn't compile those, Ezra did, but he didnt write them. And that was After Jeremiah. So...who are the lying scribes that did that? And has there just been one series of liars after another and which ones are the ones to be trusted? Which ones of the books of the Bible are accurate? I really need to know."
Vic, I don’t want to confuse your zeal for the truth with antagonism, but are you deliberately trying to confuse the issue? What do the scribes of Jeremiah’s day have to do with the Masoretes lying about the vowel points? They are separated by 500 or more years. Is there a Bible scholar, or Rabbi for that matter; that has not said (or wrote) that the Masoretes removed the correct pointing of Yhwh and placed instead (underneath) a shewa and a cholem; to achieve the pronunciation of Yehovah.
My earlier point was, even though this information has been publically known for at least 170 years, you insist that Ye Ho is the correct pronunciation.
You wrote, "Why would you believe that the virtually non existant prefix of yah for names to be accurate....."
Because this deception involves more than just switching a few vowels points around. It entails hiding an entire vowel sound..
Since you have studied Hebrew, why would you call Yah a virtually non existent prefix. It is a proper name, # 3050. The hay (of Yh) is not brought up from the end of Yhwh (to form a contraction). The hay in 3050 has a mappiq, which under Hebrew grammar rules is there to extend the sound of the preceding vowel (which is kawmates).
You worte, "......Or is that all lies too? Is the Biblical Hebrew that has come down through the ages all lies? If not, which is the true Biblical Hebrew and how do you know? I really need some documentation here and not from such as Jeff Benner or similar. Thanks."
You are overstating what I’ve said. I never said the scriptures are "all lies."
Why would you try to associate me with Jeff Benner? What’s next, Lew White? I don’t fit in that box, nor any other box for that matter.
RE: What's the True Name of God? - Rose of Shushan - 05-02-2011 10:07 AM
Quote:I believe what Joshua wrote here was the 10 commandments, and not the 22,600+ words said to be the Law of Moses. This is what has been falsified by the scribes. Especially all that which encompasses the practice of redundant animal sacrifices.
Quote:These words the Lord spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me. Deut 5:22 KJVDeu 10:1 At that time the LORD said unto me, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first, and come up unto me into the mount, and make thee an ark of wood.
“He (God) added no more.” Did God change His mind? No. I can only conclude then that man added the rest. This is the main reason why I equate the Messianics with the 1st Century Judaizers. The ones that I have known usually compel their members to follow the 613 laws.
Deu 10:2 And I will write on the tables the words that were in the first tables which thou brakest, and thou shalt put them in the ark.
Deu 10:3 And I made an ark of shittim wood, and hewed two tables of stone like unto the first, and went up into the mount, having the two tables in mine hand.
Deu 10:4 And he wrote on the tables, according to the first writing, the ten commandments, which the LORD spake unto you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly: and the LORD gave them unto me.
Deu 10:5 And I turned myself and came down from the mount, and put the tables in the ark which I had made; and there they be, as the LORD commanded me.
It seems what was written on the tablets was the same thing as the first.
What may have differed is the further instructions that God gave through Moses in the chapters of Deuteronomy 12 etc.Moses was up that mount a long time and there is probably where he got a lot of the stuff that he was later to teach the children of Israel.For example when he was shown the pattern of the tabernacle.
Exo 25:9 According to all that I shew thee, after the pattern of the tabernacle, and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, even so shall ye make it.
Exo 25:40 And look that thou make them after their pattern, which was shewed thee in the mount.
Num 8:4 And this work of the candlestick was of beaten gold, unto the shaft thereof, unto the flowers thereof, was beaten work: according unto the pattern which the LORD had shewed Moses, so he made the candlestick.
If you carry on reading in Deuteronomy you will see that God did give them further commands there .If you say those were added to then you won't recognise the priesthood,offerings, etc.I don't know what to say to that really since you are left not believing a large portion of what we know as the Law.Its hard for me to understand how you could continue to believe in the Bible under those conditions especially as you seem to be a person that gives things deep thought.