Tithing

[LindaR]

(03-24-2009 07:04 PM)Vic Wrote:   Thanks to much for sharing that Linda. It lines up with what we have studied and concluded also.
And now I can say there is someone who posts as long of posts as I do. Keep on posting!

I tried to cut corners so it wouldn't be so long, but there was just too much information, I couldn't do that. I still have one more section of Part 2 to post. I'll do that in a few hours. BTW, our pastor DOES teach tithing...said on numerous occasions that those who don't tithe are "still under a curse"...according to Mal. 3:8-10. We (my husband and I) do all our "giving" in cash only! We tune him out when he gets into his tithing rant. Good thing he doesn't get on it too often. Otherwise, he's an excellent preacher and has a passion for lost souls.

[sheep wrecked]

I tried to cut corners so it wouldn't be so long, but there was just too much information, I couldn't do that. I still have one more section of Part 2 to post. I'll do that in a few hours. BTW, our pastor DOES teach tithing...said on numerous occasions that those who don't tithe are "still under a curse"...according to Mal. 3:8-10. We (my husband and I) do all our "giving" in cash only! We tune him out when he gets into his tithing rant. Good thing he doesn't get on it too often. Otherwise, he's an excellent preacher and has a passion for lost souls.
[/quote]

It was a good article

I have to kind of chuckle, because the Mal 3 text is in reference to the Levites. They were under a curse because they withheld what they were supposed to tithe to the poor, orphans and widows. Somehow that gets overlooked I think. The passage actually starts back at Mal 2. What do you think?

[Vic]

Totally teasing, Linda. It'sfine. It's amazing how divisive the 'money' issue is or can be. Go ahead and post the rest so it doesn't get separated from the series too much.

[LindaR]

(03-24-2009 07:33 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote:  

(03-24-2009 07:24 PM)LindaR Wrote:  

I tried to cut corners so it wouldn't be so long, but there was just too much information, I couldn't do that. I still have one more section of Part 2 to post. I'll do that in a few hours. BTW, our pastor DOES teach tithing...said on numerous occasions that those who don't tithe are "still under a curse"...according to Mal. 3:8-10. We (my husband and I) do all our "giving" in cash only! We tune him out when he gets into his tithing rant. Good thing he doesn't get on it too often. Otherwise, he's an excellent preacher and has a passion for lost souls.

It was a good article

I have to kind of chuckle, because the Mal 3 text is in reference to the Levites. They were under a curse because they withheld what they were supposed to tithe to the poor, orphans and widows. Somehow that gets overlooked I think. The passage actually starts back at Mal 2. What do you think?



[/quote]
It always gets overlooked in those churches which teach tithing.

Most churches redefine tithing to mean "storehouse" tithing and now the "storehouse" is the "church house"? Don't find that one in the Bible.

[sheep wrecked]

(03-24-2009 07:48 PM)LindaR Wrote:  It always gets overlooked in those churches which teach tithing.

Most churches redefine tithing to mean "storehouse" tithing and now the "storehouse" is the "church house"? Don't find that one in the Bible.

Quite a stretch methinks! The church certainly does like to store up treasure though

[LindaR]

Part II Continued...

Quote:New Covenant Giving

In Mark 12:41-44 Jesus is in the temple sitting not far from where people were placing their money. Jesus wasn't counting their individual offerings, he was looking at the hearts of those who gave. A widow gave a very small amount - smaller than anyone else - and Jesus said she gave more than everyone else. The small amount she gave was more valuable to the kingdom of God and to her than all those who gave very large amounts. She certainly didn't tithe. Instead, she gave all she had. Is Jesus saying that everyone should all the time give all that they have? I don't think so. There are three lessons we should learn from this is:

1) Just because you give a large amount doesn't mean you are pleasing God,

2) Just because you 'tithe' doesn't mean you are pleasing God, and

3) Giving small or giving large - God knows your heart.

The poor widow was actually being robbed by the religious leaders.

That kind of sacrificial giving is NOT a model for Christians.

Unfortunately, the same thing is happening in churches right now with messages to poor folks telling them they must 'tithe'. It is wrong for religious leaders to rob poor folks by telling them they must 'tithe' to please God. The message Jesus gave to the Pharisees who stole form the poor is appropriate for religious leaders that rob and oppress the poor now. Jesus said:

Mark 12:40 Which devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayers: these shall receive greater damnation.

In Matthew 19:16-26 Jesus is asked a question by a rich young man. This young man said he had obeyed all the laws but wanted to know the one thing he had to do to get eternal life. Jesus saw through the young man's question and went directly to the root of the problem. The problem was that the young man loved his riches above everything else and wanted to hold onto them. The answer for the young man's problem was not tithing. The rich young man needed to do as Jesus said and sell all his possessions, give the money to the poor, and follow him (Jesus). What should we understand from this lesson? It becomes a problem when having riches become the most important thing for us.

In both of these situations, Jesus clearly indicates that tithing is not the answer to two extremes of money problems - those with very little money and those who have a lot of money. How about everybody else? Maybe 'tithing' is for those in the middle of the two extremes! Absolutely not! Tithing is not the answer for any money problems. Actually, based on Jesus' words, the fact that some Israelites faithfully gave a tenth of their income did not mean that God was pleased with their offering! Even when the tithes did what they were supposed to do doesn't mean that the giver was storing up treasures in heaven! That part is no different now. Just because you faithfully 'tithe' is no indication of God's acceptance of it. Yes, some of your 'tithe' may help keep the local church operating but don't take comfort in that. We are told in Matthew 7:21-27 that many people will do a whole lot better than just tithe and even they will not enter the kingdom of heaven. So what are we supposed to give? More important than the question of how much to give is the question of how to give it. We need to learn how to be cheerful givers not be reluctant to share.

For those of us in between the two extremes of little money and much money Jesus explains to us in Luke 6:38 that we will be blessed in relation to the way we bless others by giving.

Luke 6:38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

This teaching is repeated later in 2 Corinthian 9:6 which says if you only give a little you will only be blessed a little and if you give a lot you will be blessed a lot. Both of these scriptures are explaining the benefit of being generous. For some reason, many people associate tithing with being generous. Tithing and generosity are not the same. A person can tithe and still not be generous in his or her heart. 'Tithing' for Christians is an attempt to please God by obeying one of the laws he gave to the Israelites. The law of tithing is no different than the laws the Israelites were given that instructed them to kill animals and sacrifice them to God. God sent his son,Jesus, to be the final sacrifice for sins. God set all the laws including the Levitical priesthood aside because they were no longer needed. As a matter of fact, Acts 15: 10 tells us that it was not working!

Acts 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

The laws did what they were supposed to do until Jesus came and fulfilled the prophecies that were written about the first coming of the Messiah.

The Epistles agree totally with what Jesus said about giving. The first incident I'll study starts in Acts 4:32-37and continues in Acts 5:1-10. There is a lot to be learned from these passages and I'll only mention a few things about them.

First, the believers were in agreement and sharing was common.

The apostles were teaching about the resurrection of Jesus with great power and much grace was upon them.

That means that many miracles were occurring.

Ananias and Sapphira watched as others voluntarily sold lands or houses they owned and put the money at the apostles feet to be shared with the needy. Ananias and Sapphira decided to deceive people about the level of their generosity so they agreed to lie and say that they were giving all the proceeds from the sale of their piece of property. Peter challenged them in Acts 5:3-4 and reminded them about the freedom they had. The point I want to make is what Peter said to them
“Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power?”

This incident had nothing to do with tithing. It had everything to do with the deception that was in their hearts.

In 1 Corinthians 16:1-4 Paul instructs the believers

1 Corinthians 16:1-4 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye. Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come. And when I come, whomsoever ye shall approve by your letters, them will I send to bring your liberality unto Jerusalem. And if it be meet that I go also, they shall go with me.

It seems as though many interpret this as some kind of code word for tithing. It is not. It simply means that you the giver are free to decide how much money is in keeping with your income and you give that amount. Paul is not instructing believers to tithe.

In 2 Corinthian 9:6-7we are reminded that if you give a little you will be blessed a little and if you give a lot you will be blessed a lot. Verse 7 clearly states “Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give…” Believers need to search their own hearts and give what they are really happy to give. No more, no less.
The amount you should give is the amount you should give.

God is not looking for a tithing heart, but rather a giving heart.. God wants his people to obey him as he speaks to your heart. Search your own heart and determine the amount you can freely give and cheerfully give it.

Presented in an online Bible Study on Paltalk in October, 2007 by Ron Robey

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(03-24-2009 09:18 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote:  

(03-24-2009 07:48 PM)LindaR Wrote:  It always gets overlooked in those churches which teach tithing.

Most churches redefine tithing to mean "storehouse" tithing and now the "storehouse" is the "church house"? Don't find that one in the Bible.

Quite a stretch methinks! The church certainly does like to store up treasure though

It sure is quite a stretch. I was quite shocked when I heard the preacher say this. Tithing was never money. The "storehouses" were for grain and other food storage...not for money.

[Liberated by Faith]

If the Church were to be consistent in their 'tithe teaching' the Church staff would not own any property like the Levites. The Church staff would live off of 90% of the tithe received (which would be of the flocks, crops, and herds). The Church staff would give 10% of the tithe to the Pastor of the Church after the fashion of the Levites giving a tithe of the tithe to the High Priest.

The Church staff would live on other people's property and in cities of refuge where they would be the city officials.

The tithe was never money. It was only farmers and herdsmen who were required to tithe and that tithe was only within the boundaries of Israel and not to be required of anyone living outside of the boundaries of Israel.

[Vic]

(03-24-2009 10:10 PM)Liberated by Faith Wrote:  If the Church were to be consistent in their 'tithe teaching' the Church staff would not own any property like the Levites. The Church staff would live off of 90% of the tithe received (which would be of the flocks, crops, and herds). The Church staff would give 10% of the tithe to the Pastor of the Church after the fashion of the Levites giving a tithe of the tithe to the High Priest.

The Church staff would live on other people's property and in cities of refuge where they would be the city officials.

The tithe was never money. It was only farmers and herdsmen who were required to tithe and that tithe was only within the boundaries of Israel and not to be required of anyone living outside of the boundaries of Israel.

Problem is, for many it is all about the $$$$$$. We see it more openly in the larger churches, the many many programs and parachurch organisations, tv ministries, etc. Gotta have the money to get the blessing to get the new house or car or jet or....

If people gave as they considered what God would have them give, willingly, as He lays it on individual hearts, I am sure all He wants done with the $ would be done. Instead people are guilted, berated, commanded, and instructed that it is required to tithe, and to do less is not only Biblically disobedient, but for some, that persons very salvation and relationship with Christ is put into question. Then there are those who do the "faith promise" and try to dictate a response from God, promising to give over and above what they have, which goes against the Scriptures. It really gives new meaning to

1Ti 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

The whole section is so relevant.

1 Timothy 6:6-12 But godliness with contentment is great gain. 7. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out. 8. And having food and raiment let us be therewith content. 9. But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition. 10. For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows. 11. But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness. 12. Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.

[LindaR]

(03-25-2009 10:35 AM)Vic Wrote:  

(03-24-2009 10:10 PM)Liberated by Faith Wrote:  If the Church were to be consistent in their 'tithe teaching' the Church staff would not own any property like the Levites. The Church staff would live off of 90% of the tithe received (which would be of the flocks, crops, and herds). The Church staff would give 10% of the tithe to the Pastor of the Church after the fashion of the Levites giving a tithe of the tithe to the High Priest.

The Church staff would live on other people's property and in cities of refuge where they would be the city officials.

The tithe was never money. It was only farmers and herdsmen who were required to tithe and that tithe was only within the boundaries of Israel and not to be required of anyone living outside of the boundaries of Israel.

Problem is, for many it is all about the $$$$$$. We see it more openly in the larger churches, the many many programs and parachurch organisations, tv ministries, etc. Gotta have the money to get the blessing to get the new house or car or jet or....

If people gave as they considered what God would have them give, willingly, as He lays it on individual hearts, I am sure all He wants done with the $ would be done. Instead people are guilted, berated, commanded, and instructed that it is required to tithe, and to do less is not only Biblically disobedient, but for some, that persons very salvation and relationship with Christ is put into question. Then there are those who do the "faith promise" and try to dictate a response from God, promising to give over and above what they have, which goes against the Scriptures. It really gives new meaning to

1Ti 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

The whole section is so relevant.

1 Timothy 6:6-12 But godliness with contentment is great gain. 7. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out. 8. And having food and raiment let us be therewith content. 9. But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition. 10. For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows. 11. But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness. 12. Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.

Our church is into "faith promise" big time...we never fill out our "faith promise" card. They say not to put your name on the card, but somehow (especially in a small church like ours) they know who did and didn't fill it out. This "faith promise" is very berating and puts alot of pressure on people to "give" and if they don't meet that "faith promise" they must not have had enough "faith" for God to provide. Almost sounds like the WOF (Word of Faith) group! It's when we have Missionary Week (coming up again in May) that we are "hounded" for "faith promise"!

[sheep wrecked]

(03-25-2009 01:34 PM)LindaR Wrote:  Our church is into "faith promise" big time...we never fill out our "faith promise" card. They say not to put your name on the card, but somehow (especially in a small church like ours) they know who did and didn't fill it out. This "faith promise" is very berating and puts alot of pressure on people to "give" and if they don't meet that "faith promise" they must not have had enough "faith" for God to provide. Almost sounds like the WOF (Word of Faith) group! It's when we have Missionary Week (coming up again in May) that we are "hounded" for "faith promise"!

I was once a WoF/pentecostal/charismatic as well. That was before I got into Messy, so I know the "faith promise" drill. On Christian radio this morning I heard someone say that you just needed to "step out in faith and give and the Lord would meet your need/provide what you pledged". I keep wondering, where is that in Scripture? wow