Joseph Prince

[Lois]

It is one thing to have a different interpretation and it is all together something else to twist the scripture or flat out say that the bible says something it does not even say.
You are giving men the glory for their interpretation instead of giving God the glory for opening your understanding.
That is something that these teachers/preachers will not correct you on either they want you to keep giving them glory for their teaching that is how they make their money..people are moved by the emotion of what is being said and not God.

Quote:people like Joseph Prince that help us interpret the meaning of scripture. Even Jesus had to explain to the Apostles

That is right Jesus gave them the understanding not men.We do not get our understanding from men but God/Jesus.If you don't understand something you don't look for another preacher to explain it, you look to God to help you understand.
We get our interpretation,our meaning,our understanding from God,not men.

What I have seen with Joseph Prince and others,is that they quote a little bit of scripture,often times not even the whole verse and then there are pages and pages and pages of their speculation and most of this speculation can not be proven at all or it is completely contrary to what the bible says.
If what they say is contrary to the word of God then they are simply preaching their own brand of gospel.

People's discernment are different because some are not being led by the Holy Spirit.Some are led by emotion.Some are led by other seducing spirits.Some are led by greed.Some are led by pride.Some are led by self righteousness.Some are led by notoriety and popularity.Some people are led by other people.If the blind lead the blind they both fall into a ditch.
There are many things that can and do hinder a person's discernment, level of spiritual maturity is another big hinder-er.I think God also tests our willingness to be led by His Spirit alone and some times we fail that test by allowing ourselves to be led by emotion,greed,pride,other people and other spirits.

How do you know if someone's discernment is correct or if they are really being led by the Holy Spirit?
Does what they say and do agree with the word of God,not just a little,not just here and there,if they are claiming to be a representative of God then everything they say should agree with what God said,period.

I can't comment on what Kenneth Hagin preaches.I would have to look into what he teaches and compare it to scripture before I comment on Him.

Quote:Tongues or Healing for today, anyone that sees this stuff might be leary

Bama, I had spent more than 30 years in tongues,healing and the name it, claim it prosperity gospel.I was not leery of anything until God slowly started revealing His true self to me,His true gospel,the gospel of Jesus Christ.

[Vic]

Well Bama, discernment isn't a spidey sense. It's understanding that comes from the indwelling Holy Spirit and knowing and applying the Word of God. That's the 'by reason of use'....not based on man's writings or opinions, but use and application of the actual Word of God, as given understanding by the Holy Spirit.

As far as the divorce issue, it is I believe, discussed on another thread. Jesus was actually quite clear as was Paul later--given direct revelation on that issue. And also clear on the qualifications for leadership to be the husband of one wife...that's not one wife at a time, although since some are now hot and heavy into promoting polygamy, it could be an issue from that perspective. Anyway, many leaders violate that qualification.

Jesus never said leaven works both ways, and I am not sure about 'false leaven'. People can build their beliefs on false information/facts--that is, ignore provable facts in lieu of emotional or feelings based information--false or errant doctrine instead of proving their doctrine on the Word of God. They think it might be correct because so and so taught it or said it or believes it--but that is not the sound doctrine from the Scriptures.

Tongues has been and always will be based on languages, not unintelligible babble. Speaking in other languages is fully done within the parameters established in the Scriptures--no exceptions. No interpreter, the person speaking the other/unfamiliar language is to be quiet. That is violated over and over and over again in the 'faith' movement--does rejecting that stuff mean a person has no faith? Not at all because we walk by faith not by sight.

God heals and does miracles everyday. Does rejecting the movement based and steeped in the 'show' of it mean rejection of God at work? Absolutely not! Are we supposed to seek signs and wonders? According to the Scriptures, No.

What is supposed to be done if someone is sick? Consider the issue is about spiritual health first and foremost---and many are far more healthy depending on Christ through physical affliction than those who seek after someone to heal them from it.

Jas 5:13 Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms.
Jas 5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
Jas 5:15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
Jas 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

You mention Sheep, and being caught up in HR, yet totally dismiss her total immersion into the charismatic/pentecostal/word/faith, healing, self made tongues, listening to a demonic spirit thinking it was God telling her to sin for him etc etc...So you want the HR stuff because that fits with what you want to call errant but don't wish to hear the rest?

Jesus opened the understanding of the apostles--just as the Holy Spirit gives us understanding. One cannot understand the Scriptures without the Holy Spirit doing that. It's that simple.

As far as Prince's errant interpretation of Revelation 3:14-17....that merely proves how off he really is. Nice try on giving his opinion though. Let's take it in context.

Revelation 3:14-20 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; 15. I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. 16. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. 17. Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: 18. I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. 19. As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. 20. Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

cold >G5593
ψυχρός
psuchros
Thayer Definition:
1) cold, cool
1a) of cool water
2) metaphorically
2a) cold, i.e. sluggish, inert
2b) in mind: of one destitute of warm Christian faith and the desire for holiness
Part of Speech: adjective
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G5592

hot >G2200
ζεστός
zestos
Thayer Definition:
1) boiling hot, hot
2) metaphorically of fervour of mind an zeal
Part of Speech: adjective
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G2204

lukewarm >G5513
χλιαρός
chliaros
Thayer Definition:
1) tepid, lukewarm
2) metaphorically of the condition of the soul wretchedly fluctuating between a torpor and a fervour of love
Part of Speech: adjective
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from chlio (to warm)

Torpor means according to Webster's >Numbness; inactivity; loss of motion, or of the power of motion. Torpor may amount to a total loss of sensation, or complete insensibility. It may however be applied to the state of a living body which has not lost all power of feeling and motion.

1. Dullness; laziness; sluggishness; stupidity.

THose verses have nothing to do with mixing law and grace. It has everything to do with living for Christ, fully and completely, or not at all, or waffling back and forth and neither living for Christ completely nor denying Him completely, which He clearly is stating He will 'spue' out.

spue G1692
ἐμέω
emeō
Thayer Definition:
1) to vomit, vomit forth, throw up
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: of uncertain affinity

That's the problem with following men's words instead of studying the actual Word of God. The Holy Spirit alone gives understanding. Yes, He can and does use others to help our growth at times, because the Body of Christ is to edify itself, that is, one another, but it is full dependence on Him that is what matters for our understanding.

1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Eph 4:21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
Eph 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
Eph 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

2Ti 1:13 Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 1:14 That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us.

It's been my experience that many who claim to be very godly, are very messed up also, and merely have the appearance of godliness and can walk the walk and talk the talk and use the name of Jesus and claim the blood ....but are as far from Truth as many who openly deny Christ. Because they have never understood the relationship between Christ and a believer. They only know the Scriptures throught the opinions of men, and don't really study them alone, seeking understanding from Him alone. And they have another gospel and another Jesus instead of the Jesus of the Scriptures. And that's very sad, and very true.

Living for Christ is not dependent on other people. It is entirely dependent on our walk and relationship with Jesus Christ and following HIM.

Luk 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

2Pe 1:2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
2Pe 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
2Pe 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
2Pe 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
2Pe 1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
2Pe 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
2Ti 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

Gal 6:4 But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another.
Gal 6:5 For every man shall bear his own burden.

Jeremiah 17:5-10 Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD. 6. For he shall be like the heath in the desert, and shall not see when good cometh; but shall inhabit the parched places in the wilderness, in a salt land and not inhabited. 7. Blessed is the man that trusteth in the LORD, and whose hope the LORD is. 8. For he shall be as a tree planted by the waters, and that spreadeth out her roots by the river, and shall not see when heat cometh, but her leaf shall be green; and shall not be careful in the year of drought, neither shall cease from yielding fruit. 9. The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? 10. I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

The blood of Jesus was shed for us, once for all. It is not a talisman, and not something to be claimed repeatedly in prayer. Jesus said to pray in His Name, and gather in His Name because of who He is, and what He has done, not in the name of His blood.

Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Joh 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
Joh 14:14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

Joh 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Once one has believed who Christ is, that He died, rose again and sits at the right hand of the Father, and one has forgiveness, are new creatures in Him, the issue is about our personal relationship and walk with Him.

You are confused by presentation of factual information and evaluation according to the Scriptures, and yet we know that God is not the author of confusion...

[Bama]

I've held off replying as at first I wasn't sure what to say or even how to reply. There is so much I would like to say but I'll hold off but I do want to reply to what you said about JPs interpretation of the Rev verses I posted.

(03-19-2012 04:53 PM)Vic Wrote:  

....snipped

As far as Prince's errant interpretation of Revelation 3:14-17....that merely proves how off he really is. Nice try on giving his opinion though. Let's take it in context.

Revelation 3:14-20 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; 15. I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. 16. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. 17. Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: 18. I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. 19. As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. 20. Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

THose verses have nothing to do with mixing law and grace. It has everything to do with living for Christ, fully and completely, or not at all, or waffling back and forth and neither living for Christ completely nor denying Him completely, which He clearly is stating He will 'spue' out. [color=#000080][b]

Seems to me what is being said about being spued out is he will spue them out that are "Lukewarm". Not "cold" or "hot"

Quote:15. I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. 16. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

So being "Lukewarm", in this case, seems worse then being cold. From a belief understanding wouldn't it be better to be warm for Jesus rather than cold? Basic salvation or beliefs surely has to be better than nothing at all...cold! After all isn't that how many in the Church are today...warm? Most never seem to go past a basic understanding of salvation. Many never seem to get into the "meat" of the word and can only take the "milk".

Something to think about anyway.

[Vic]

Hi Bama,

I might be wrong but I think being cold to Christ is someone who maybe has not known Him, or who has clearly rejected Him.

I do believe the parallel verses which really give further understanding about the lukewarm issue might be these:

2Pe 2:19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Heb 6:7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
Heb 6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
Heb 6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Heb 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Heb 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Php 3:17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.
Php 3:18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
Php 3:19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)
Php 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
Php 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Mat 3:10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Mat 13:18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
Mat 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
Mat 13:20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
Mat 13:21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
Mat 13:22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
Mat 13:23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

I think part of what is being said is that it would be better in one sense to have never known Christ than to have known Him and turned away and determined to not live for Him, all the while keeping the label and what had been truth to them. It's total hypocrisy and built on lies. I think the above verses show that truth.

I agree that many are what I call 'culture' Christians, never really picking up their cross daily; many are following another gospel and another Jesus and have missed the truth of having that personal and daily relationship with Him and abiding His Word. Many do not study His Word, and rely on being told what to believe which is why they have no substance and root in Him; they aren't abiding in Him but their 'religion', and yes warm or lukewarm can apply. I think it also reminds of Jesus' warning about the salt having lost its flavour:[/b]

Luk 14:33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.
Luk 14:34 Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be seasoned?
Luk 14:35 It is neither fit for the land, nor yet for the dunghill; but men cast it out. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

have lost his savour,G3471

G3471
μωραίνω
mōrainō
Thayer Definition:
1) to be foolish, to act foolishly
2a) to make foolish
2a1) to prove a person or a thing foolish
2b) to make flat and tasteless
2b1) of salt that has lost its strength and flavour
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G3474

[Bama]

(03-16-2012 11:02 PM)Lois Wrote:  His stuff is well written but there is very little gospel in it.If you look over your book again carefully how much actual scripture is in it?
You will find that it is mostly his commentary,his view point,his opinion and very little gospel.A person's speculation is not the gospel.It may sound good or make you feel good,give you goosebumps but it is not the gospel.
I have found his teachings to be contrary to the teachings of Jesus Christ.

Hi Lois

It has taken me a while to finally respond to your post. I will say what you said troubled me greatly. I wanted to respond immediately but chose not too. I have read his book "Destined To Reign" twice now and another book of his, "Unmerited Favor" once. For you to say some of the things you have said, in my opinion, we read different books. Plain and simple. I simply cannot fathom saying they read that book and can say there is very little Gospel in it. That makes absolutely no sense.

As far as having actual scripture in it, it is FULL of scripture and references to scriptures. Almost every page in this book has scriptural references. Many, many pages include multiple references. How can you miss that? Can you be so caught up in an "anti faith" mind set that you refuse to see what is before your eyes?

As far as commentary goes...isn't that how most books are written? Especially religious/spiritual books? You read them to gain the authors understanding to help you develop your own understanding. Oh and I can think of one book that has scripture quoted with commentary about it's meaning. It's called the New Testament and I seem to recall numerous quotations of scripture followed by commentary by Jesus himself as well as a few others like Paul, their opinion, their view point. And it was all pure Gospel.

Your post acts as if we are to glean this info by our own reading of the word and not trust on anyone else to help us learn even though the scriptures are clear in that He gave us Apostles, Prophets, Preachers, Teaches, etc to help us learn the Gospel.

Now I'm sure that is not what you meant in your reply but that is what I read.

Basically I think Joseph Prince has got it. If you choose to not listen then that is okay. We all have things from our past that cause us to follow others differently than others may choose to follow. I do not follow JP himself but what he teaches about Grace and the Word. To me it seems to follow the scriptures very well. To say he teaches against Jesus Christ means someone is missing something here. Here's is a quote from his book "Unmerited Favor" that I hope will shed some light on how he thinks about what he teaches........

"My personal prayer and desire for my ministry is to have the same kind of results that Joseph(he's talking about the Joseph from the Old Testament here)had. In everything that I do, I want people to see Jesus and Jesus alone! When I pray for a sick child, I certainly do not want the results that my own hands can produce. If the results are what Joseph Prince alone can produce, I can guarantee you that the child will remain sick. No, I want results that only Jesus can produce! When I preach about Jesus and His finished work, my prayer is that my church congregation and those watching our broadcasts around the world would hear not what "I" have to say, but rather, what Jesus is speaking to their hearts through me.
I am but a vessel, and my words alone have no power. But at His Word, sinners get born again and are saved for all eternity. ....."

To say this man does not preach about Jesus Christ is nonsense. I have heard him too much now to know differently.

Honestly I sense a little bit of a anti faith perspective on these forums. I know how the "Word Faith" message causes some issues with a few of you. But is it the message or the messenger that is the real problem? I don't like the term "word faith" because it seems to automatically mean something is bad or wrong or incorrect. I too have some issues with "some" of the messengers. But don't let the bad apples spoil the whole message. The very foundation of the Bible is Faith. The very foundation of our Salvation and Righteousness in the New Covenant is "FAITH" even more so. Even though it is by His Grace that we are saved it is by our own "Faith" that brings about that saving Grace. The Word is clear however the things of the Spirit are not discerned by the natural mind. The "Faith" talked about, especially in the New Testament, works more than just our salvation. You have to learn and understand what we have in Him, in Whom, etc to help you understand what is provided for us through that same "Faith."

All I can suggest is to try and be more open to what some say in their teaching and not dismiss them so easily. If you don't agree or understand perhaps it would be better to say that rather than condemning that person. After all the Pharisees condemned Jesus and look how wrong they were.

I hope this post was taken in Love and not trying to make anyone feel condemned. I think you guys(and gals) are great but I feel you are denying some of the power offered to us by God and His sacrifice of His Son. Not understanding is one thing but to deny some things I just think one needs to be very careful.

---

(04-06-2012 01:52 PM)Vic Wrote:  Hi Bama,

I might be wrong but I think being cold to Christ is someone who maybe has not known Him, or who has clearly rejected Him.

I do believe the parallel verses which really give further understanding about the lukewarm issue might be these:


I think part of what is being said is that it would be better in one sense to have never known Christ than to have known Him and turned away and determined to not live for Him, all the while keeping the label and what had been truth to them. It's total hypocrisy and built on lies. I think the above verses show that truth.

I agree that many are what I call 'culture' Christians, never really picking up their cross daily; many are following another gospel and another Jesus and have missed the truth of having that personal and daily relationship with Him and abiding His Word. Many do not study His Word, and rely on being told what to believe which is why they have no substance and root in Him; they aren't abiding in Him but their 'religion', and yes warm or lukewarm can apply. I think it also reminds of Jesus' warning about the salt having lost its flavour:[/b][color=#9400D3]

Hi Vic

I found this post on a website today and wanted to reply here and give you a chance to read another opinion on Rev 3:15 and JPs interpretation.
Since I can't link yet(although you may allow a broken link) I will try and copy and paste it here if that is okay.

h.t.t.p Link broken://escapetoreality.org/2010/05/08/lukewarm-in-laodicea-part-1-are-you-%E2%80%9Chot%E2%80%9D-enough-for-god-rev-314-21/

Quote: Laodicea, Part 1: Are You “Hot” Enough for God? (Rev 3:15)
Filed under: Bible study,church,Laodicean church,living under law,mixing grace with works,the cross — Paul Ellis @ 10:14 am
Tags: Bible, Christianity, God, Jesus

The letter to the Laodicean church may be the best known of the seven Revelations letters. But it is also the most troubling letter for many Christians. The difficulty stems from the rebuke spoken by Jesus:

“I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth. You say, ‘I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked.” (Rev 3:15-17)

What does it mean to say a church is lukewarm? What does it mean to be spit out of Jesus’ mouth? What does it mean to be wretched and pitiful, blind and naked? In this series I will look at each of these questions in turn.

What does it mean to be lukewarm? Many commentators define lukewarmness in terms of apathy or lack of zeal. They say it’s better to be on fire for God or coldly opposed to him than be halfhearted in the middle. This interpretation has become so widely known that even among sinners the term lukewarm has become synonymous with apathy and complacency.

But there are at least three problems with interpreting this scripture in terms of zeal.

Problem 1: Zeal is a subjective term

What is hot to you will be lukewarm to someone else. You might think that you are “on fire” for God. You may say, “I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I have.” Then you meet someone who is fasting four times a week and giving 20% away. Compared to them you look like a casual believer. After all, you’re only doing half as much as them. You begin to wonder, “Am I doing enough? Will Jesus spit me out?”

I’ve heard preachers use Revelations 3:16 to condemn Christians who have become, in their eyes, complacent and lackadaisical. It’s funny, but when preachers say this, they usually define “hot” in terms of whatever level of zeal they happen to be living at. It’s an amazing coincidence.

No matter how zealous or enthusiastic you may be, there will always be someone more zealous who makes you look lukewarm by comparison. The only appropriate response is one of competitive insecurity. And that leads to the second problem with this interpretation.

Problem 2: Zeal implies God’s acceptance of us is based on our performance

The lukewarmness of the Laodiceans had put them in danger of being “spit out” or rejected by the Lord. This begs the question, what makes us acceptable to God? Is it our zeal?

Usually when people preach on this text, zeal is defined in terms of things we should do, or rather things we aren’t doing enough of. And we sit there and nod our heads because, yes, we could be doing a lot more of all those good things.

But think about this for a second. Since when did we buy into the idea that our performance makes us acceptable to God? This is just self-righteousness in disguise. You can tell that by looking at the fruit. What if you did fast twice a week and give 10% away and then you met a believer who didn’t fast or tithe at all? Pride would swell up inside. You might think, “I’m no Billy Graham, but compared to this person I’m hot, hot, hot!”

Yeah, that impresses God.

Religion deals in relatives and leads people to say, “I’m basically a good person,” or, “I may not be perfect, but I’m above average.” But God deals in absolutes. You’re either in the kingdom or you’re not. You’re either a sheep or a goat, wheat or weeds, a sinner or a saint. Defining lukewarmness in terms of our performance gets people thinking that there is some middle ground when it comes to our acceptance. But there is no middle ground.

Problem 3: Jesus says we’re better off cold

Most people agree that it’s better to be hot than lukewarm, but Jesus said it’s also better to be cold. Either hot or cold is good. But if Jesus was referring to enthusiasm, why would he say it’s better to have none that some? If Jesus was referring to the things we do for him, why would he say it’s better to do nothing than something? This doesn’t make any sense.

Some have defined “cold” as meaning “being opposed to God” or “rejecting the truth outright.” If so, why would Jesus say, “I wish you were hot or cold”? Why would Jesus want anyone to reject the truth of the gospel? That doesn’t make sense either.

Lukewarmness is not about human zeal

People who preach zeal are essentially saying, “be good for Jesus.” Well it’s good to be good but our goodness never makes us acceptable to a holy and perfect God. Apart from him we are all tarnished by sin, we are all unworthy. Most believers accept that God’s grace makes the sinner righteous, yet they don’t believe his grace also makes the Christian righteous! It’s as if God helps the sinner all the way to the cross and then leaves the new Christian to make it the rest of the way on his own. This dumb idea has been floating around since the time of the Galatians:

“You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?” (Gal 3:1-3)

The Message Bible translates the last verse this way:

“Only crazy people would think they could complete by their own efforts what was begun by God.” (Gal 3:3)

The Contemporary English Version puts it like this, “How can you be so stupid?” while Darby’s translation wonders, “Are ye so senseless?”

So there you have it. The Bible says those who preach human effort are crazy, foolish, stupid and senseless. Whether we are saved or unsaved, our self-righteous acts can never make us acceptable to God.

You might say, “It’s not about works, it’s about attitude. God looks at the heart.” But Jesus did not say to the Laodiceans, “I know your heart.” He said, “I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot.” There was clearly something they were doing that made them lukewarm and unacceptable. So what was it?

Lukewarmness is about mixing stuff

When Jesus says he would prefer that we are hot or cold rather than lukewarm, most people automatically think of a thermometer: cold and hot temperatures are good, but being stuck in the middle is bad. As we have seen this is a poor metaphor because there is no middle ground with God. But lukewarmness can also refer to mixing things. When you mix cold with hot you get lukewarm.

Now what are two good things in the Bible that, if you mix them together, you end up with something bad? Here’s a hint – what were the Galatians mixing together? Answer: law and grace.

We all know that the grace of God is good, but what about the law?

“The law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.” (Rom 7:12)

Why is the law good? Because it leads us to Christ that we might be justified by faith (Gal 3:24). The law was written on tablets of cold stone. The law has no power to make you righteous and good, but if you are honest, it will reveal your need for a Savior:

“Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.” (Rom 7:13)

The law – which is good – brings despair, condemnation and guilt, and leads us to Christ. God’s grace – which is very good – brings hope, justification and freedom through Jesus Christ. But these two good things cannot be mixed together. If you try to mix law with grace you’ll end up with the benefits of neither.

How do you dilute the power of the law? By lowering God’s holy standards to attainable levels of human performance.

How do you negate the unmerited favor of God? By trying to earn it through observing the commandments and other acts self-righteousness.

The Laodicean’s problem was not that they were complacent, but that they were trying to attain through human effort that which only God can do. Their problem was far more serious than a poor attitude. They were trying to make themselves righteous.

Good and bad zeal

It is good to be enthusiastic for Jesus. But there is good zeal and bad zeal. Look at what Paul said of the Jews:

“For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.” (Rms 10:2-4)

Bad zeal is what you get when you try to establish your own righteousness instead of submitting to God’s righteousness. Good zeal is what you get when you know that Christ has set you free from the demands of the law and given you his righteousness. When you apprehend what Jesus has done for you, you will be as enthusiastic as a freed prisoner! You will run like a cripple with new legs, like a blind man with new eyes!

Jesus did not suffer and die on the cross to give us a chance to compete for God’s approval. He died to make us righteous. If Christians are apathetic today it’s probably because they’re tired of trying to stir up carnal zeal. They are weary of being told they are not praying enough, reading enough, witnessing enough, giving enough. No matter how much they do, it is never enough. The unfinished work of the law always demands more.

What will set Christians free is the revelation that Jesus has done it all. His was a one-time sacrifice for all the sins of the world. Not only did Jesus die for us but he lives for us, he keeps us, and he intercedes for us. As you begin to understand the significance this, it will set you free like never before.

In Part 2, I will look at what it means to be spit out of Jesus’ mouth.

I didn't quote part 2.

[Lois]

Bama, I am sorry if my comments have offended you but I stand by what I said. I may not always come across to people online very well it seems but I am working on getting better at that.
I'm not exactly sure what you mean by accusing me of having an "anti faith mind set"?
I simply compare what someone preaches or teaches to the scriptures, that is what we are called to do. I don't believe it has anything to do with me having an "anti faith mind set" as you say , we are told to prove all things and that is what I try to do.

I am quoting the first page of Destined To Rein.

Chapter 1
Page 1

Quote:You are destined to reign in life. You are called by the Lord to be a success, to enjoy wealth, to enjoy health, and to enjoy a life of victory.
It is not the Lord's desire that you live a life of defeat, poverty, and failure. He has called you to be the head and not the tail.
If you are a businessman, God wants you to have a prosperous business. If you are a homemaker, you are anointed to bring up wonderful children in the Lord. If you are a student, God wants you to excel in all your examinations. And if you are trusting the Lord for a new career, He doesn't just want you to have a job;
He wants you to have a position of influence so that yo can be a blessing and an asset to your organization!
Whatever your vocation is, you are destined to reign in life because Jesus is Lord of your life. When you reign in life, you rein over sin, you reign over the powers of darkness, and you rein over depression, over poverty, over every curse, and over every sickness and disease. You REIGN over the devil and all his devices!

"You are destined to reign in life."

Where in the Bible does it say we are destined to reign in life?

"You are called by the Lord to be a success, to enjoy wealth, to enjoy health, and to enjoy a life of victory"

Where in the Bible does it say we are called by the Lord to be a success, to enjoy wealth, to enjoy health, and to enjoy a life of victory?

"It is not the Lord's desire that you live a life of defeat, poverty, and failure."

Where in the Bible does it say we are never supposed to experience defeat, poverty or failure?

"He has called you to be the head and not the tail."

Where in the Bible does it say we are called to be the head and not the tail?

"If you are a businessman, God wants you to have a prosperous business."

Where in the Bible does it say God wants you/us/anyone to have a prosperous business?

"If you are a homemaker, you are anointed to bring up wonderful children in the Lord."

Where in the Bible does it say that homemakers are anointed?

"If you are a student, God wants you to excel in all your examinations."

Where in the Bible does it say God wants students to excel in all their examinations?

"And if you are trusting the Lord for a new career, He doesn't just want you to have a job; He wants you to have a position of influence so that you can be a blessing and an asset to your organization!"

Where in the Bible does it say that the Lord doesn't just want us to have a job but a position of influence?

Where in the Bible does it say we rein over sin, we reign over the powers of darkness, and we rein over depression, over poverty, over every curse, and over every sickness and disease. We REIGN over the devil and all his devices?

Bama Wrote:

Quote:Your post acts as if we are to glean this info by our own reading of the word and not trust on anyone else to help us learn even though the scriptures are clear in that He gave us Apostles, Prophets, Preachers, Teaches, etc to help us learn the Gospel.

We are to read the Bible for ourselves and ask God for understanding. I'm not saying that we can't learn from each other but should we not make sure who we are allowing our self to be taught by stays within scriptural bounds and if they aren't should we still listen to them?

Bama Wrote:

Quote:If you don't agree or understand perhaps it would be better to say that rather than condemning that person.

I do say who I don't agree with and then I give scriptural reasons why. I don't condemn anyone I compare what they say with the Bible if what they say is not in the Bible then it is a false teaching. plain and simple.

[Lois]

What does the Bible teach us about sickness, suffering,and being rich or poor?

Jesus said:
Mat 5:10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

Jesus said:
Luke 6:20 And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said, Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God.
21 Blessed are ye that hunger now: for ye shall be filled. Blessed are ye that weep now: for ye shall laugh.
22 Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake.
23 Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.
24 But woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation.

Jesus said:
Luke 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

Does seeking after wealth, positions of influence and prosperous businesses sound like what Jesus preached?

Mat 6:19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

If someone teaches something contrary to what Jesus taught would they be teaching for or against Jesus Christ?

1Pe 3:17 For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.

Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

1Co 4:10 We are fools for Christ's sake, but ye are wise in Christ; we are weak, but ye are strong; ye are honourable, but we are despised.
11 Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwellingplace;
12 And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it:
13 Being defamed, we intreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day.
14 I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you.

1Co 12:25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

Suffer
G3958
pascho patho pentho
pas'-kho, path'-o, pen'-tho
Apparently a primary verb (the third form used only in certain tenses for it); to experience a sensation or impression (usually painful): - feel, passion, suffer, vex.

Suffer With
G4841

sumpascho
soom-pas'-kho
From G4862 and G3958 (including its alternate); to experience pain jointly or of the same kind (specifically persecution; to “sympathize”): - suffer with.

2Co 1:3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;
4 Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.
5 For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also aboundeth by Christ.
6 And whether we be afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation, which is effectual in the enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer: or whether we be comforted, it is for your consolation and salvation.
7 And our hope of you is stedfast, knowing, that as ye are partakers of the sufferings, so shall ye be also of the consolation.

Php 4:11 Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content.
12 I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need.
13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

1Pe 4:12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.
14 If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.
15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters.
16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.

2Ti 3:10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
11 Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.
12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

Heb 11:24 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;
25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;
26 Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.
27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.

2Co 11:21 I speak as concerning reproach, as though we had been weak. Howbeit whereinsoever any is bold, (I speak foolishly,) I am bold also.
22 Are they Hebrews? so am I. Are they Israelites? so am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? so am I.
23 Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.
24 Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.
25 Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;
26 In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;
27 In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.
28 Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches.
29 Who is weak, and I am not weak? who is offended, and I burn not?
30 If I must needs glory, I will glory of the things which concern mine infirmities.
31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.

1Ti 5:23 Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.

How rich was John the Baptist? How rich was Jesus Himself?

Mat 3:3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
4 And the same John had his raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey.

Jesus didn't even a have a place to lay his head down, is that rich?
Mat 8:20 And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.

If God wants us wealthy as Prince says, why did Jesus say it was hard for anyone rich to make it into heaven?

Mat 19:23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

Luk 18:24 And when Jesus saw that he was very sorrowful, he said, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!
25 For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

Jesus tells us to be willing to give up everything and follow Him, is that a little different than what JP says?

Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Jesus told the rich man to give away all his riches to the poor and follow Him.

Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

Luke 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

Jesus also said:
Luke 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

Strive
G75
agonizomai
ag-o-nid'-zom-ahee
From G73; to struggle, literally (to compete for a prize), figuratively (to contend with an adversary), or generally (to endeavor to accomplish something): - fight, labor fervently, strive.

Luk 16:13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.
15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

Mammon
G3126
mammonas
mam-mo-nas'
Of Chaldee origin (confidence, that is, figuratively wealth, personified); mammonas, that is, avarice (deified): - mammon.

Prince may preach a version of Jesus Christ but is it the same as the Bible?

Jas 2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.
2 For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment;
3 And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool:
4 Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts?
5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?
6 But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats?
7 Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?

1Ti 6:9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.
10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
11[b] But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.

Act 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Tribulation
G2347
thlipsis
thlip'-sis
From G2346; pressure (literally or figuratively): - afflicted, (-tion), anguish, burdened, persecution, tribulation, trouble.

Rom 12:10 Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another;
11 Not slothful in business; fervent in spirit; serving the Lord;
12 Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer;

Job was said to be perfect and upright but he suffered greatly.

Job 2:3 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.
4 And Satan answered the LORD, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life.
5 But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face.
6 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.
7 So went Satan forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.
8 And he took him a potsherd to scrape himself withal; and he sat down among the ashes.
9 Then said his wife unto him, Dost thou still retain thine integrity? curse God, and die.
10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

Job 31:23 For destruction from God was a terror to me, and by reason of his highness I could not endure.
24 If I have made gold my hope, or have said to the fine gold, Thou art my confidence;
25 If I rejoiced because my wealth was great, and because mine hand had gotten much;
26 If I beheld the sun when it shined, or the moon walking in brightness;
27 And my heart hath been secretly enticed, or my mouth hath kissed my hand:
28 This also were an iniquity to be punished by the judge: for I should have denied the God that is above.

Psa 38:3 There is no soundness in my flesh because of thine anger; neither is there any rest in my bones because of my sin.
4 For mine iniquities are gone over mine head: as an heavy burden they are too heavy for me.
5 My wounds stink and are corrupt because of my foolishness.

Num 12:9 And the anger of the LORD was kindled against them; and he departed.
10 And the cloud departed from off the tabernacle; and, behold, Miriam became leprous, white as snow: and Aaron looked upon Miriam, and, behold, she was leprous.

So it would seem that those who say that it is never God's will that any of us should be sick or weak are simply denying the Scriptures. I am not saying that every sickness is a punishment sent by God. I am simply saying that God sometimes uses sickness in order to chastise and teach His children. Chastisement and discipline are not always about punishment, it may be just a tweaking here or there, of our character.
And for those that would say it is God's will or desire for us to be wealthy they would also have to deny a lot of scripture that say otherwise, don't you think?
I'm not saying that Christians can't be rich, there probably are some Christians that can be trusted to be good stewards of wealth and not be adversely affected by it but I think that to be a rarity.

[Neil Roder ‎ניל רודר‎]

joe prince uses in the sermon i am hearing/watching on t.v. right now,
Jeremiah 31:34 No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest," declares the LORD. "For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more."
he is speaking to his church like we are in the time Yeremiyah Prophesied when we are not in that time for the world ha not been destroyed. He is another easy believism preacher and leads people astray by his own saying, a believer is sinnless when the Messiah has specifically said, beware the false prophets and teachers, be patient and overcome so that you may Not Lose what you have... there would be no ability to lose anything if it were a mere easy belief as he preaches grace and forgiveness for a christian even if they sin, Yehoshua,jezuz, Said, those who love Him will be obedient and do as He commands which do not come from Him but from the Father. If any christian or other person believes that the Messiah came to die for their sin and they are therefore forgiven yet do not Obey the Fathers Commands and do as He wills them to do but instead do as they think they can and want to do for they think they are forgiven, are not under Salvation and are the lawless workers of iniquity who will be cast away. simple. Yehoshua said exactly how to define one who Obeys and is Righteous and under true Salvation and Grace, as Faith without works is dead, hence obedience and true obedience and they will act in True Love in all they do, they will not preach the lies joe and jeff bethke and so many christian preachers and speakers speak, it is so very sad. May the Almighty Father YHVH Yahovah guide me for His will and for His purposes and Never my own, Selah, amen, amen. Blessings and Shalom.

[Vic]

Hi Neil, welcome to the forum. PLease take the time to introduce yourself here > http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/forumdisplay.php?fid=17

And please do make sure you have read the forum rules > http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/forumdisplay.php?fid=28 or http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/forumdisplay.php?fid=2

It would be helpful if you would simply write in english, rather than mixing languages. It makes it far easier to understand what you are saying, for those not familiar with the various non english words you have inserted. Also please spell Jesus correctly in english. It is not with a z. There are those who do that spelling that you used, because they despise the name and person of Jesus, believing He is a pagan god, and wish to denigrate Him and the name of Jesus by doing that. Please state clearly what you believe on this issue.

Thank you.

[Neil Roder ‎ניל רודר‎]

Greetings Vic.
It is not that i despise the Messiah, rather quite contrary, I love Him, and our Father, however i do despise the lies handed out in mainstream to all peoples for eons in regards to Truth which they cover up with deceit barely noticed by those who are not currently capable of knowing the truth for they are lied to by masses who teach doctrines of men and erred scripture. I would rather use the Messiahs birth given Name and not a name which has not the meaning His Name is meant to have, and for eons now it has been taken out of the bible because satan is very devious and cunning even unto the point where men would die for his lies as they believe it to be truth being taught to them by their pastors and traditions which either knowingly or unknowingly are in deep rooted error. And the same with the Almighty Father, whom has a Name as well and it is not god, nor lord, and if people do not know this they are lead in error and are being withheld Truth from Scripture and Spirituality. If one cannot take the Gospel according to how the Father and Messiah and the Prophets explained and showed it to be done then whomever does so, does it in error and ignorance or deceit, which the Messiah warns against. It is about Love and being obedient to the Father and doing as commanded. to be a servant to the people whom it is to be taken to and to help them however possible in kindness and patience, right judgement, and love. Not to deceive them. to be loving even unto those who persecute and ridicule and even kill His children. hate the sin but love the sinner. to teach people wrong is to not only be condemned but also lead others to be condemned as well unless reproved and corrected. In the Name of Love, as the Messiahs New Name will be given after the New Yerushalem comes, as said in Revelation. In the NAME of the Father, the Son and the Righteous Set Apart Spirit, Name, One. And those who love Him, whom are obedient, the Father, Son and Righteous Spirit abide with and dwell within them, making not three but more. I aim for all to know the difference between false doctrines and True Scripture, regardless of the consequences men may try to deal out. As well, i do know that not all are able to go to heaven nor will they see or know how the Kingdom of Heaven is at Hand Now, but in obedience, servant and prophet and children are to take His Word to All. Blessings and Shalom.