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Defending the Word
06-16-2011, 12:43 PM (This post was last modified: 06-16-2011 12:45 PM by Vic.)
Post: #1
Question Defending the Word
With so many taking the idea that that Scriptures are inspired in the original manuscripts--of which there are none, but rather copies of originals, the implication is that those same people are saying they do not believe the Bible, and most mean the KJV, is neither inspired nor protected. Rather, it is merely man's interpretation in translating, and includes heavy bias etc. While that is very much true for some versions, and deliberately so, has God protected and inspired the writing and later copying of the manuscripts which led to the compiling and translation of the Bible, and if so, how do we know God is even capable of such preservation? Some have suggested that while those originals were inspired, men were the authors so therefore we need to use our own logic and understanding to determine what actually is God's Word, if any of it is.

So how do we defend the Word of God as being the very inspired and protected Word of God and that it is True and to be Trusted as His revelation to us?

Vic
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3John 1:4 I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth.
Isaiah 40:31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.
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07-02-2011, 03:11 AM (This post was last modified: 07-02-2011 03:12 AM by Ekklesia.)
Post: #2
RE: Defending the Word
God question Vic.

There is diversity, even contradiction in the extant copies that exist today. The discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls has even shown how canonization evolved for at least three major 'traditions' of OT scripture (Mesoretic, Septuagint, Samaritan). Accordingly, I think it would be hard to argue extant copies are inspired (or one would have to explain the ample differences).

However, though there are errors and differences in the extant copies, these 'blemishes' are completely incidental, in that there is no difference, or error, that substantially alters core Christian biblical orthodoxy (which is different than ecclesiastical orthodoxy).

Admitting that the theology of inspiration itself is a controversial topic, the consensus (within at least protestant circles) seems to be that what was inspired was the original dictation, and understanding (on the part of the reader), called by some 'illumination'.

This means belief in inspired text does not require 'perfect paper copies'.
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07-10-2012, 07:10 PM (This post was last modified: 07-10-2012 07:30 PM by Lois.)
Post: #3
RE: Defending the Word
The argument seems to be that only the "original manuscripts" are inspired..and that the translating was done by fallible men so it could not have been inspired, perfect or without error.

My thoughts on that are if a translation of the Bible cannot be trusted because of man’s involvement then even the original autographs cannot be trusted because men were involved in those too..because that's who God used to record His divine words,imperfect,sinful men.

Some say that inspiration is different than preservation and that inspiration was a supernatural work of God,but somehow preservation became less of a supernatural work of God.(?)
According to Ps. 12:6-7 and other verses, preservation is providential. That means it is a work guided by God. Preservation is just as much a work of God, in which He utilizes men in the process, just like inspiration was a work of God in which He utilized men.
The mechanics may be different, but it is still the same God working through the means of imperfect,sinful men.
Preservation and inspiration was a promise and work of God, not man.

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.


"All scripture is given by inspiration of God"
God's promises do not become void because they were translated into English or any other language.

If we don't have God's inspired scripture then we are not "thoroughly furnished".If it faded away with the "original manuscripts" then we are not "thoroughly furnished".

Why would God waste His time inspiring words and moving men to record them if He didn’t plan for anyone other than the original writers to have them?


I have to wonder where people get the idea that the Bible today cannot be perfect or inspired, or without error because they certainly don't get it from reading the Bible.


Psa 119:140 Thy word is very pure: therefore thy servant loveth it.

Pro 30:5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.



Psa 12:6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
12:7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

God's words are pure and He promised to preserve them for ever.



I just happen to believe the very act of the translating of the Bible was a work of God..pure and simple.God is good anything good originates from Him.


It was not difficult for God to use an imperfect girl(Mary) to produce His perfect Son(Jesus), it should not be difficult for God to use an imperfect man to produce His pure,inspired Words.(the Bible)



When I was thinking about God preserving His word the canning process came to mind. Biggrin
I don't know how many here are familiar with canning but I have a poor, country folk background, I was brought up with canning food.My Grandma canned everything and I do mean everything. lol
Canning allows people to preserve food in an air tight container for many years.(You can learn a little more about canning here if you don't know what it is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canning ) 8836
You can "can" peaches today and 3 years from now open them up to eat them and they will taste as lovely and fresh as the day you picked them.
They did not lose anything in the preserving process and I believe that is exactly the same truth of God's word.

It did not lose anything during the preserving process.It did not lose it's inspiration during the preserving process.
When you open the word of God today it is still living,vital, and saving(life giving) as the day God canned it(started the preserving process).
His words did not lose any power,authority or inspiration during His preserving process.


Ecc 3:14 I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.
If God inspired it, it stays inspired for ever.


How do you know that the Bible is the inspired word of God? The same way you know you are saved.

Mar 11:22 And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God

Faith!

I have faith in God!
I believe God!

Joh 2:22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

Joh 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.



Act 5:39 But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.



The very fact that we even have a Bible at all should be proof enough that God is doing what He said,that He keeps His promises.


Psa 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.


Isa 40:8 The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.




Isa 55:10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:
11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.(2John 1:9)
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07-14-2012, 11:23 PM
Post: #4
RE: Defending the Word
The Bible says we are to have an answer for those that would ask us why we believe what we do.

It's been said many times that a translation cannot be inspired,to that I would like to offer my own biblical answer as to why I believe a translation may be inspired.

Act 21:37 And as Paul was to be led into the castle, he said unto the chief captain, May I speak unto thee? Who said, Canst thou speak Greek?
38 Art not thou that Egyptian, which before these days madest an uproar, and leddest out into the wilderness four thousand men that were murderers?
39 But Paul said, I am a man which am a Jew of Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, a citizen of no mean city: and, I beseech thee, suffer me to speak unto the people.
40 And when he had given him licence, Paul stood on the stairs, and beckoned with the hand unto the people. And when there was made a great silence, he spake unto them in the Hebrew tongue, saying,
Act 22:1 Men, brethren, and fathers, hear ye my defence which I make now unto you.
2 (And when they heard that he spake in the Hebrew tongue to them, they kept the more silence: and he saith,)


The book of Acts was written in Greek even though Paul clearly was speaking Hebrew there.
Paul spoke to them in Hebrew but later what Paul said was written down,not in Hebrew but in Greek. (An inspired translation?)



We also have the story of Joseph and how his brothers sold him out of jealousy in Genesis.
There is something in Genesis 42 that I find very interesting.

Joseph has been living in Egypt and there is a great famine in which his brothers go to Egypt for relief.(My paraphrasing)
Joseph does not want his brothers to know who he is so he speaks to them through an interpreter.

Gen 42:23 And they knew not that Joseph understood them; for he spake unto them by an interpreter.

I don't know what language Joseph is speaking.I could speculate and say Egyptian because that is where they are but the fact is that Joseph was speaking a language his brothers did not understand and used an interpreter.

So what was inspired,the words that came out of Joseph's mouth,what the interpreter said or what was later written down in Hebrew?(Inspired translating?)



The Bible speaks for itself and you can't get away from the fact that there were things in the bible that were spoken in one language and written down in another,repeatedly.

Were they inspired translations?

Things were spoken in one language and then translated and written down in another.(Inspired translation?)



I have heard people say that the KJ translators never claimed to be inspired.

Can someone be something and not know it?


I have an example of that very thing, John the Baptist 8836

Joh 1:19 And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou?
20 And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ.
21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.

Mat 17:11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.


John the Baptist was Elias and did not know,he even denied it.

So I believe that someone can be something and not know it,such as inspired and even deny it.


There are some examples of translating happening in the Bible and examples of people being something and not knowing it.

There are places where Jesus reads the Old Testament Hebrew but it is written in New Testament Greek.(the book of the prophet Esaias)


Luke 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.

What language was the book of the prophet Esaias written in?What language was Jesus speaking in the Jewish synagogue?I bet is was not Greek,but the account of it is translated into and written down in Greek.

Was there some inspired translating going on?

I can't prove beyond a shadow of a doubt there was, but I believe there was some divinely inspired translating going on throughout the Bible.

We are called to walk by faith.If we knew everything and had the answers for everything then there would be no need for faith.

I trust God has done what He says He will do.

2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

I bet the scriptures he knew from a child were written in Hebrew but that right there was written in Greek.

Funny how all throughout the Bible you don't find anyone bickering about translations and there was a whole lot of translating going on.
Hebrew,Greek,Latin...etc.


I don't think we can pick and choose what is inspired or not because "All scripture is given by inspiration of God".

Were the KJ translators inspired?

I think the proof is in the fruit.

I may have some more to add to this another time. Biggrin

Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.(2John 1:9)
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07-15-2012, 01:10 AM (This post was last modified: 07-15-2012 03:14 PM by Vic.)
Post: #5
RE: Defending the Word
Very good points Lois.

The very issue that many today claim that they believe the 'original manuscripts' were inspired, but the translations we have could never have been inspired. The implication is also that any copies of the originals were/are not valid as being God's inspired word. NO one has the very original manuscripts, either for the OT or the NT. When Peter said that the prophecies, including the messianic prophecies were spoken by the prophets as God directed them, that is viewed as the only inspired words, and anything after that is not of God's inspiration. Yet we are to believe that what we read then is neither inspired or really God's Word, or to be trusted as such. And then we must look at the written fulfillment of those prophecies as not inspired or accurate, meaning all the Truth of Jesus Christ is brought into question as not 'being accurate' or not being inspired by God.

But what does God's Word say about making copies of what He had some particular person write in the first place, and the people were to read or listen to those words being read to them. And didn't Jesus confirm the Scriptures to be God's Word, not only reading the copies in the synagogues, but also quoting them. Not just the originals but the copies handed generation to generation. And aren't the gospels and epistles, the letters we have to be used for our sound doctrine for knowing and serving Christ, knowing that they contain the words we are admonished to learn from.


Deu 17:15 Thou shalt in any wise set him king over thee, whom the LORD thy God shall choose: one from among thy brethren shalt thou set king over thee: thou mayest not set a stranger over thee, which is not thy brother. ...
Deu 17:18 And it shall be, when he sitteth upon the throne of his kingdom, that he shall write him a copy of this law in a book out of that which is before the priests the Levites:


copy H4932
משׁנה
mishneh
BDB Definition:
1) double, copy, second, repetition
1a) double
1b) copy (of law)
1c) second (in order)
1c1) second rank
1c2) second in age
1d) second quarter or district
Part of Speech: noun masculine


Deu 31:9 And Moses wrote this law, and delivered it unto the priests the sons of Levi, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, and unto all the elders of Israel.
Deu 31:10 And Moses commanded them, saying, At the end of every seven years, in the solemnity of the year of release, in the feast of tabernacles,
Deu 31:11 When all Israel is come to appear before the LORD thy God in the place which he shall choose, thou shalt read this law before all Israel in their hearing.
Deu 31:12 Gather the people together, men, and women, and children, and thy stranger that is within thy gates, that they may hear, and that they may learn, and fear the LORD your God, and observe to do all the words of this law:

Deu 31:24 And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished,
Deu 31:25 That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying,
Deu 31:26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.

Deu 4:9 Only take heed to thyself, and keep thy soul diligently, lest thou forget the things which thine eyes have seen, and lest they depart from thy heart all the days of thy life: but teach them thy sons, and thy sons' sons;
Deu 4:10 Specially the day that thou stoodest before the LORD thy God in Horeb, when the LORD said unto me, Gather me the people together, and I will make them hear my words, that they may learn to fear me all the days that they shall live upon the earth, and that they may teach their children.


Psa 78:5 For he established a testimony in Jacob, and appointed a law in Israel, which he commanded our fathers, that they should make them known to their children:
Psa 78:6 That the generation to come might know them, even the children which should be born; who should arise and declare them to their children:
Psa 78:7 That they might set their hope in God, and not forget the works of God, but keep his commandments:

Jos 8:31 As Moses the servant of the LORD commanded the children of Israel, as it is written in the book of the law of Moses, an altar of whole stones, over which no man hath lift up any iron: and they offered thereon burnt offerings unto the LORD, and sacrificed peace offerings.
Jos 8:32 And he wrote there upon the stones a copy of the law of Moses, which he wrote in the presence of the children of Israel.
Jos 8:33 And all Israel, and their elders, and officers, and their judges, stood on this side the ark and on that side before the priests the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, as well the stranger, as he that was born among them; half of them over against mount Gerizim, and half of them over against mount Ebal; as Moses the servant of the LORD had commanded before, that they should bless the people of Israel.
Jos 8:34 And afterward he read all the words of the law, the blessings and cursings, according to all that is written in the book of the law.
Jos 8:35 There was not a word of all that Moses commanded, which Joshua read not before all the congregation of Israel,
with the women, and the little ones, and the strangers that were conversant among them.

Ezr 4:11 This is the copy of the letter that they sent unto him, even unto Artaxerxes the king; Thy servants the men on this side the river, and at such a time.

2Ki 22:8 And Hilkiah the high priest said unto Shaphan the scribe, I have found the book of the law in the house of the LORD. And Hilkiah gave the book to Shaphan, and he read it.
2Ki 22:9 And Shaphan the scribe came to the king, and brought the king word again, and said, Thy servants have gathered the money that was found in the house, and have delivered it into the hand of them that do the work, that have the oversight of the house of the LORD.
2Ki 22:10 And Shaphan the scribe shewed the king, saying, Hilkiah the priest hath delivered me a book. And Shaphan read it before the king.
2Ki 22:11 And it came to pass, when the king had heard the words of the book of the law, that he rent his clothes.
2Ki 22:12 And the king commanded Hilkiah the priest, and Ahikam the son of Shaphan, and Achbor the son of Michaiah, and Shaphan the scribe, and Asahiah a servant of the king's, saying,
2Ki 22:13 Go ye, enquire of the LORD for me, and for the people, and for all Judah, [b]concerning the words of this book that is found: for great is the wrath of the LORD that is kindled against us, because our fathers have not hearkened unto the words of this book, to do according unto all that which is written concerning us.[/b]

2Ki 23:2 And the king went up into the house of the LORD, and all the men of Judah and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem with him, and the priests, and the prophets, and all the people, both small and great: and he read in their ears all the words of the book of the covenant which was found in the house of the LORD.
2Ki 23:3 And the king stood by a pillar, and made a covenant before the LORD, to walk after the LORD, and to keep his commandments and his testimonies and his statutes with all their heart and all their soul, to perform the words of this covenant that were written in this book.
And all the people stood to the covenant.

2Ch 34:30 And the king went up into the house of the LORD, and all the men of Judah, and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and the priests, and the Levites, and all the people, great and small: and he read in their ears all the words of the book of the covenant that was found in the house of the LORD.
2Ch 34:31 And the king stood in his place, and made a covenant before the LORD, to walk after the LORD, and to keep his commandments, and his testimonies, and his statutes, with all his heart, and with all his soul, to perform the words of the covenant which are written in this book.

Neh 8:3 And he read therein before the street that was before the water gate from the morning until midday, before the men and the women, and those that could understand; and the ears of all the people were attentive unto the book of the law.
...Neh 8:5 And Ezra opened the book in the sight of all the people; (for he was above all the people;) and when he opened it, all the people stood up:

Neh 8:7 Also Jeshua, and Bani, and Sherebiah, Jamin, Akkub, Shabbethai, Hodijah, Maaseiah, Kelita, Azariah, Jozabad, Hanan, Pelaiah, and the Levites, caused the people to understand the law: and the people stood in their place.
Neh 8:8 So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.

Jer 36:6 Therefore go thou, and read in the roll, which thou hast written from my mouth, the words of the LORD in the ears of the people in the LORD'S house upon the fasting day: and also thou shalt read them in the ears of all Judah that come out of their cities.

Jer 36:10 Then read Baruch in the book the words of Jeremiah in the house of the LORD, in the chamber of Gemariah the son of Shaphan the scribe, in the higher court, at the entry of the new gate of the LORD'S house, in the ears of all the people.

Joh 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.

Mat 12:3 But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him;
Mat 12:4 How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests?
Mat 12:5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?

Mat 19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,

Mat 21:16 And said unto him, Hearest thou what these say? And Jesus saith unto them, Yea; have ye never read, Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast perfected praise?

Mat 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

Mat 22:31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
Mat 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.


Mat 26:54 But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?

Mar 2:25 And he said unto them, Have ye never read what David did, when he had need, and was an hungred, he, and they that were with him?

Mar 12:26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?

Act 1:16 Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.
Act 1:17 For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.
Act 1:18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.
Act 1:19 And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood.
Act 1:20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.


Act 3:18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.

Act 8:29 Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.
Act 8:30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?
Act 8:31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me?
And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.
Act 8:32 The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:
Act 8:33 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.

Act 8:34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?
Act 8:35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.

2Co 1:12 For our rejoicing is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God, we have had our conversation in the world, and more abundantly to you-ward.
2Co 1:13 For we write none other things unto you, than what ye read or acknowledge; and I trust ye shall acknowledge even to the end;


Eph 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
Eph 3:4 Whereby, when ye read,
ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)


Col 4:16 And when this epistle is read among you, cause that it be read also in the church of the Laodiceans; and that ye likewise read the epistle from Laodicea.

1Th 5:27 I charge you by the Lord that this epistle be read unto all the holy brethren.

2Th 3:14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.

Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Luk 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
Luk 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

Luk 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
Luk 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Luk 24:48 And ye are witnesses of these things.

Vic
SeekGod.ca

3John 1:4 I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth.
Isaiah 40:31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.
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07-16-2012, 04:29 AM (This post was last modified: 07-16-2012 04:32 AM by Solo Christo.)
Post: #6
RE: Defending the Word
I think you both make good points about it being well within God's power to perfectly inspire, and as you point out, the Bible certainly speaks of that kind of inspiration happening & people having a very high view of Scripture contained in multiple languages.

It's interesting to look at how historically Jews & Christians have approached inspiration. I was recently reading the history of the Septuagint and was very surprised to learn that for awhile the Jews believed it was not only inspired but that it actually corrected the existing Hebrew text in a few places! I'm not sure what to make of that claim, however even the Church Father's thought it was inspired, hence why the Eastern Orthodox continues to use it as the OT.

Questions regarding the canon also come to mind, as exactly which books are inspired varies not only at different times in Church history but within the different traditions. Even as late as the Reformation, we see changes being made. Anyway, for what it's worth, I think the Early Church did an excellent job at selecting books (e.g. I think the result is far more consistent than the Quran!) & other "books"/"gospels" that have come to light over the years seem to all contain good reasons for not including them.
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07-16-2012, 10:17 AM (This post was last modified: 07-16-2012 10:24 AM by Vic.)
Post: #7
RE: Defending the Word
(07-16-2012 04:29 AM)Solo Christo Wrote:  I think you both make good points about it being well within God's power to perfectly inspire, and as you point out, the Bible certainly speaks of that kind of inspiration happening & people having a very high view of Scripture contained in multiple languages.

It's interesting to look at how historically Jews & Christians have approached inspiration. I was recently reading the history of the Septuagint and was very surprised to learn that for awhile the Jews believed it was not only inspired but that it actually corrected the existing Hebrew text in a few places! I'm not sure what to make of that claim, however even the Church Father's thought it was inspired, hence why the Eastern Orthodox continues to use it as the OT.

Questions regarding the canon also come to mind, as exactly which books are inspired varies not only at different times in Church history but within the different traditions. Even as late as the Reformation, we see changes being made. Anyway, for what it's worth, I think the Early Church did an excellent job at selecting books (e.g. I think the result is far more consistent than the Quran!) & other "books"/"gospels" that have come to light over the years seem to all contain good reasons for not including them.

What does the Quran have to do with Scripture, Alex?

The Jewish scribes protected the OT writings and those entrusted with making copies counted every letter, punctuation and so on to make sure they were being accurate.

That's why Jesus mentions >

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
Isa 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

2Ti 3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Vic
SeekGod.ca

3John 1:4 I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth.
Isaiah 40:31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.
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07-16-2012, 07:45 PM
Post: #8
RE: Defending the Word
(07-16-2012 04:29 AM)Solo Christo Wrote:  ... I think the Early Church did an excellent job at selecting books (e.g. I think the result is far more consistent than the Quran!) & other "books"/"gospels" that have come to light over the years seem to all contain good reasons for not including them.
(07-16-2012 10:17 AM)Vic Wrote:  What does the Quran have to do with Scripture, Alex?
As the number of Muslims in the world rapidly approaches 1 in 4 people, I think it’s good to consider how to we defend the Bible against their attacks (e.g. they are almost certainly the largest source of criticism of the Bible & have even written new “gospels” to try to discredit it) and their claims of having perfect, inspired Scripture. Believe it or not, offline I’ve spent time involved in this area.

(07-16-2012 10:17 AM)Vic Wrote:  The Jewish scribes protected the OT writings and those entrusted with making copies counted every letter, punctuation and so on to make sure they were being accurate.
Yes, I thank God that they took it very seriously.

(07-16-2012 10:17 AM)Vic Wrote:  That's why Jesus mentions >
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
Isa 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

2Ti 3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Amen.
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07-18-2012, 02:10 PM
Post: #9
RE: Defending the Word
I have been pulling information out the last few days to address the various threads and this happens to be one that correlates to the Hebrew Roots movement and their view that the NT are just letters, not Scripture and we are to abide the law of Moses etc. While some of the Scriptures are used already in this thread, I am going to post this in it's entirety just to keep it together.

Myth. Jesus and the apostles quoted exclusively from the Old Testament, and the New Testament writings were just meant to be letters, and were never to be considered Scripture. Therefore our doctrine must first come from the Law of Moses.
______________

Answer: Are all of the writings that make up the sixty six books of the Bible to be considered scripture? Many in the "Hebrew Roots " movement say no, using the reasoning that the apostles quoted exclusively from the Old Testament, and that the New Testament writings were just meant to be letters, and were never considered scripture. Aside from Jesus specifically stating that that He brought in new commandments (ex.You have heard it said, but I say unto you.) Let's see what the scriptures say:

2 Timothy 3 [/b]
[written by Paul approx 60 ce.]
2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

2 Peter 3:
[written by Peter approx 64 ce.]
1.This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: 2. That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

2 Peter 3:15-16 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16. As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.


Notice that Peter says in ALL of Paul's epistles [letters] meaning plural. Then Peter goes on to state "as they do also the other Scriptures". Also notice that Peter's account was written after Paul's directive in 2 Timothy.

Let's examine what Jesus said about this:


Luke 4:4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.


Are His Words not the very Word of God?


John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

John 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;


In the scripture above, Jesus establishes that the writings of His disciples are inspired and authoritative. If this were not true, then how could future generations believe on Jesus unless it was through the apostles written word? Keep in mind that Jesus is the beginning and the end, therefore when He says every, that is what He means.

The apostles were specifically chosen by God as His witnesses...to recount all that they had seen and all they were inspired to speak and write are part of that witness.


John 20:30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

John 21:24 This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true. 25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

Act 1:2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:
3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God: ... 8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Act 4:33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.

Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. ... Mar 16:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

Hebrews 2:3-4 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; 4. God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

1 John 1:1-7 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; 2. (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;) 3. That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. 4. And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full. 5. This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Jud 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

Heb 13:22 And I beseech you, brethren, suffer the word of exhortation: for I have written a letter unto you in few words.

Revelation 1:18-19 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. 19. Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;


Here is another example which shows that the New Testament writings were considered scripture by the apostles. This occurs when Paul quotes two separate verses, as being one scripture: one part from the Old Testament [Deuteronomy], one from the New Testament [ Gospel of Luke -authored by Luke 56-58 ce]

This is Paul quoting Deuteronomy 25:4 [first part] and Luke 10:7 [second part]

1 Timothy 5 [authored by Paul – approx 61-64 ce]


18. For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.
[misthos G3408]

Here are the two complete scriptures that make up Paul's singular quote:


Deuteronomy 25:4 Thou shalt not muzzle the ox when he treadeth out the corn.

Luke 10:7 And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire [misthos G3408]. Go not from house to house.


Paul considered the Gospel of Luke [it has been stated that he was a Greek physician], which is written in Greek to be "scripture", the same as Deuteronomy, which was written in Hebrew, and is thought to be authored by Moses.

Here are other examples of the writings of the apostles being used to convey the New Covenant and all it meant:


1Corinthians 14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

Acts 15:19-20 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: 20. But that we write unto them, that they
abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood...
Acts 15:22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely,
Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and
Syria and Cilicia:..27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth...30 So when they were dismissed, they
came to Antioch: and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle: 31 Which when they had read, they rejoiced for the consolation.

1Corinthians 4:14 I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you.

2 Corinthians 2:8-9 Wherefore I beseech you that ye would confirm your love toward him. 9. For to this end also did I write, that I might know the proof of you,
whether ye be obedient in all things.

2 Corinthians 10:8-13 For though I should boast somewhat more of our authority, which the Lord hath given us for edification, and not for your destruction, I should
not be ashamed: 9. That I may not seem as if I would terrify you by letters. 10. For his letters, say they, are weighty and powerful; but his bodily presence is weak,
and his speech contemptible.
11. Let such an one think this, that, such as we are in word by letters when we are absent, such will we be also in deed when we are
present.
12. For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise. 13. But we will not boast of things without our measure, but according to the measure of the rule which God hath distributed to us, a measure to reach even unto you.

2 Corinthians 1:12-13 For our rejoicing is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of
God, we have had our conversation in the world, and more abundantly to you-ward. 13. For we write none other things unto you, than what ye read or acknowledge;
and I trust ye shall acknowledge even to the end;


2 Corinthians 13:1-4 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established. 2. I told you before, and
foretell you, as if I were present, the second time; and being absent now I write to them which heretofore have sinned, and to all other, that, if I come again, I will not
spare: 3. Since ye seek a proof of Christ speaking in me, which to you-ward is not weak, but is mighty in you. 4. For though he was crucified through weakness, yet
he liveth by the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but we shall live with him by the power of God toward you....10 Therefore I write these things
being absent, lest being present I should use sharpness, according to the power which the Lord hath given me to edification, and not to destruction.

Philippians 3:1 Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe.

Ephesians 3:2-5 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: 3. How that by revelation he made known unto me the
mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, 4. Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5. Which in other ages was not made
known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

Colossians 4:10 Aristarchus my fellowprisoner saluteth you, and Marcus, sister's son to Barnabas, (touching whom ye received commandments: if he come unto you, receive
him;


Colossians 4:15 Salute the brethren which are in Laodicea, and Nymphas, and the church which is in his house. 16 And when this epistle is read among you, cause that it be read also in the church of the Laodiceans; and that ye likewise read the epistle from Laodicea.

1 Thessalonians 5:27-28 27. I charge you by the Lord that this epistle be read unto all the holy brethren. 28. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.
<The first epistle to the Thessalonians was written from Athens.>

2 Thessalonians 3:17-18 17. The salutation of Paul with mine own hand, which is the token in every epistle: so I write. 18. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with
you all. Amen. <The second epistle to the Thessalonians was written from Athens.>

1 Timothy 3:14-15 These things write I unto thee, hoping to come unto thee shortly: 15. But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave
thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.


Many in the "roots" movement have been trying to twist the scriptures, and have questioned and even denied the authority of Paul's writings in an attempt to prove their theology. The scriptures tell us that Jesus appeared to Paul on the road to Damascus. Let's look at what else the scriptures say:


Acts 9:10-18 And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord. 11. And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth, 12. And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight. 13. Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem: 14. And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name. 15. But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: 16. For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake. 17. And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. 18. And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.

Acts 22:12-15 And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt there, 13. Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him. 14. And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth. 15. For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.


Let's look at how God feels about His written word:


Deuteronomy 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

Deuteronomy 12:32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

Proverbs 30:5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. 6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

Psalms 12:6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. 7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

2 Peter 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Isaiah 40:7-8 The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: because the spirit of the LORD bloweth upon it: surely the people is grass. 8. The grass withereth, the flower
fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.


1Peter 1:24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.


And the Law of Moses, which those in Hebrew Roots claim to abide, says this:


Deuteronomy 18:18-19 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all
that I shall command him. 19. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name,
I will require it of him.

John 12:48-50 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
49. For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50. And I know that
his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.


John 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of
Joseph.


Acts 3:19-26 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20.
And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21. Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath
spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. 22. For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you
of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
23. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that
prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. 24. Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise
foretold of these days. 25. Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all
the kindreds of the earth be blessed. 26. Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his
iniquities.

Vic
SeekGod.ca

3John 1:4 I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth.
Isaiah 40:31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.
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