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Hebrew4Christians, praying for Israel, Palestinians, etc
10-18-2011, 09:07 AM (This post was last modified: 10-25-2011 04:02 PM by Vic.)
Post: #1
Hebrew4Christians, praying for Israel, Palestinians, etc
THIS IS A SPLIT FROM THE THREAD "GENERAL QUESTION FOR FORMER MESSIANICS" WHICH GOT QUITE OFF TOPIC. HOPEFULLY THIS WILL SOMEWHAT ALLOW FOR THE ENSUING DISCUSSION.
>VIC


Computerdoc welcome to the forum! I enjoyed reading your comments on this thread.

However, I was surprised to see you endorsing the hebrew for christians site.
While the site can seem a great starter to those learning Biblical Hebrew it is full of Talmudic concepts and rabbinic prayers and seems to encourage or promote their use by Christians. Just check out under the heading for Rosh Hashanah there for a typical example of what I mean...It's full of Talmud.

To me it's no different than the normal messianic messages out there hence my surprise that you called it the true messianic message.
This also begs the question about what is that true messianic message that you speak of and does it differ from the christian one?
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10-18-2011, 08:16 PM (This post was last modified: 10-27-2011 02:36 PM by Vic.)
Post: #2
RE: General questions for former Messianics
(10-18-2011 09:07 AM)Rose of Shushan Wrote:  Computerdoc welcome to the forum! I enjoyed reading your comments on this thread.


However, I was surprised to see you endorsing the hebrew for christians site.

-C - The owner is John Parsons. He was a consultant for Hebrew for Zola Levitt Ministries for years.

He in no way endorses the nonsense part of HR which is like pretending one is a Jew. In fact I have talked to Jews to explain that group to them as a peacemaker.

His main idea is that it is GOOD for Christians to study the torah and other Jewish concepts which shed light on the early Christian movement. However he is NOT in favor of torah replacing Yeshua after a person becomes a Christian. You need to read his articles on the torah to understand

If I could put in a link I could show you this. There is no harm in studying Judaic roots of Christianity.

There definitely is harm in saying that now that we have the Holy Spirit we can attempt to follow the torah etc. better than the Jews did. [that is what the "Judaic Christians" which I have met in Niagara [ [b]{Links removed--Newbies are NOT allowed to post links as per forum rules. PLease read them if you have not done so--Vic} and online from Atlanta and other places around the country attempt to teach].

I am not a "pretend" Jew. I love studying aspects of the Jewish religion because my savior was Jewish and it helps me understand him and his time. I enjoy Jewish music. I am sure Yeshua did.

Quote:While the site can seem a great starter to those learning Biblical Hebrew it is full of Talmudic concepts and rabbinic prayers and seems to encourage or promote their use by Christians. Just check out under the heading for Rosh Hashanah there for a typical example of what I mean...It's full of Talmud.

"seems to encourage" = what? It seems that you are probably over-reacting to the "pretend Jews" who claim to be messianic. Am I right?

I don't think you will find anything that encourages Talmudic concepts.

For example if I talk about cults and what they believe, is that equivalent to "encouraging" people to be part of a cult? I am sure you would agree it is not.

However I do understand those who have had bad experiences with what I call "Judaic Christians" are more sensitive to anything like that.

Have you had an experience like that?

Quote:To me it's no different than the normal messianic messages out there hence my surprise that you called it the true messianic message.

Charles - why is it "no different". I think I covered this idea above.

Quote:This also begs the question about what is that true messianic message that you speak of and does it differ from the christian one?[/b]

The true messianic message is that Yeshua [which is more correct than our anglicized Jesus .... although it is not important enough to argue with anyone about] came to give us a better way since it was obvious man could not follow the law.

Jeremiah 31 says
31 ¶ Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant Mt. 26.28 · Mk. 14.24 · Lk. 22.20 · 1 Cor. 11.25 · 2 Cor. 3.6 with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers, in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was a husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 but this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; Heb. 10.16 and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. Heb. 10.17 Heb. 8.8-12


Some Judaics say this has not happened because this covenant is with the "house of Israel and of Judah" but other epistles such as Galatians say we are grafted in to the true vine and we are descendents of Abraham.

Hate to tell you but you cannot be a descendent unless you are of the same race .... therefore the "grafting in" means we are now part of the true vine God started long ago with Abraham and carried on ever so imperfectly through the Jewish people. WE too are inheritors of the covenant given to Abraham.

Would you agree? You might say it differently but do you agree?

Christianity for about the first 300 years until Constantine tried to force everyone to be a Christian, was known, as a sect of Judaism. Of course the first Christians were Jews.

As more and more gentiles became grafted in the Jerusalem conference was set up and VERY FEW RULES from Judaism were insisted upon, certainly not circumcision, torah study and so on.

Constantine was somewhat anti-Jewish as was Martin Luther and he wanted to "cleanse" the church of Judaic remembrances.

Have you ever listened to First Century Foundations by Joe Amaral on Miracle Channel? You can also see it online at {Links removed--Newbies are NOT allowed to post links as per forum rules. PLease read them if you have not done so--Vic} Joe does practise some of the rituals of remembrance of Judaism such as often having a seder, or celebrating some of the feasts, which is okay. WE were never instructed to drop them. But that doesn't mean you HAVE to celebrate them nor does it mean that you CANNOT.

If you think I am wrong about any of the above, please let me know. However before you do, please check the scriptures that support your belief? Okay?

God bless you.
I like this board as it gives a place to have a good discussion for some that were really indoctrinated in HR as you call it but it is really Judaic Christianity or JC in my estimation.

God bless you
Charles
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10-18-2011, 08:41 PM
Post: #3
RE: General questions for former Messianics
Quote:"seems to encourage" = what? It seems that you are probably over-reacting to the "pretend Jews" who claim to be messianic. Am I right?

I don't think you will find anything that encourages Talmudic concepts.

Well if you read through the articles, for instance, the Rosh Hashana one, or the Akeida one, they give the Talmudic quotations and interpretations very clearly.
It has nothing to do with "over reaction to pretend jews" as you suggested.What it has to do with is that Talmudic interpretations came about much later than Jesus and arose out of the religious system that rejected Him. Would it be appropriate to go to Hindu or Islamic writings in order to better understand the Gospel? Then why is it appropriate to waste time finding wisdom or aid to understanding in the system that seeks to understand the Bible whilst completely rejecting Jesus role in it in the process?


Quote:Have you ever listened to First Century Foundations by Joe Amaral on Miracle Channel? You can also see it online at firstcentury "dot" "tv". Joe does practise some of the rituals of remembrance of Judaism such as often having a seder, or celebrating some of the feasts, which is okay. WE were never instructed to drop them. But that doesn't mean you HAVE to celebrate them nor does it mean that you CANNOT.
Why would we want to practise a seder? A seder is not what Jesus attended.At the time of Jesus, the Temple stood and they obeyed the Law and had the Passover with a lamb, they had the priesthood etc.The seder that people do now is what Judaism replaced the Temple Services with, following its destruction.A seder is what the religion that rejects Christ practises.Bringing Jesus into it at various points doesn't make it any more acceptable in my view.

Computerdoc, if someone is jewish I don't see anything wrong with them continuing to attend family seders since it's a family tradition but for a gentile to begin doing it thinking he honours Christ this way is wrong in my view.Or completely unnecessary.

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10-19-2011, 12:37 AM (This post was last modified: 10-19-2011 10:46 AM by Vic.)
Post: #4
RE: General questions for former Messianics
(10-18-2011 08:41 PM)Rose of Shushan Wrote:  "seems to encourage" = what? It seems that you are probably over-reacting to the "pretend Jews" who claim to be messianic. Am I right?

Quote:I don't think you will find anything that encourages Talmudic concepts.

Quote:Well if you read through the articles, for instance, the Rosh Hashana one, or the Akeida one, they give the Talmudic quotations and interpretations very clearly.

It has nothing to do with "over reaction to pretend jews" as you suggested.

What it has to do with is that Talmudic interpretations came about much later than Jesus and arose out of the religious system that rejected Him.

Charles: Is there only one religious system that rejects Yeshua? Or are we all responsible individually for our attitudes and behaviour?

Quote:Rose: Is there any one or any group which has a monopoly on the truth about Yeshua or Christianity?

Would it be appropriate to go to Hindu or Islamic writings in order to better understand the Gospel?

Was Yeshua Jewish?

Did Christianity come from the Jews first?

If Hinduism was the root of Christianity, YES it would be appropriate. However neither Hinduism or Islam are roots of Christianity, Judaism IS.
I love my messiah. Why would I not want to know more about what it was like for him as a Jew?

You know when you first fall in love? You want to know EVERYTHING about the one you love.

Rose, You seem a little over-cautious about studying Judaic roots and I am sure there is a reason for it even if I guessed wrong above.

Quote:Then why is it appropriate to waste time finding wisdom or aid to understanding in the system that seeks to understand the Bible whilst completely rejecting Jesus role in it in the process?

Charles: Is it wasting time to find out about the one you love? Or is that a judgement? Perhaps if I knew you I would think that you waste time. I am sure you don't perfectly fulfill the will of the Father every moment do you Rose?

I see your over-reaction Rose. Just have not determined why yet.

Have you ever listened to First Century Foundations by Joe Amaral on Miracle Channel? You can also see it online at firstcentury "dot" "tv". Joe does practise some of the rituals of remembrance of Judaism such as often having a seder, or celebrating some of the feasts, which is okay. WE were never instructed to drop them. But that doesn't mean you HAVE to celebrate them nor does it mean that you CANNOT.

Quote:Rose: Why would we want to practise a seder? A seder is not what Jesus attended. At the time of Jesus, the Temple stood and they obeyed the Law and had the Passover with a lamb, they had the priesthood etc.The seder that people do now is what Judaism replaced the Temple Services with, following its destruction.A seder is what the religion that rejects Christ practises.Bringing Jesus into it at various points doesn't make it any more acceptable in my view.

Charles: What was the last supper? It was Passover. Passover is a seder.

Quote:Rose: Computerdoc, if someone is jewish I don't see anything wrong with them continuing to attend family seders since it's a family tradition but for a gentile to begin doing it thinking he honours Christ this way is wrong in my view. Or completely unnecessary.

Charles: Do you have a scripture to indicate that it is wrong to attend and be part of a seder? I have not found any yet.

For me it just reminds me of the background of my Lord. It reminds me why Jews have always been the most hated people on Earth. It reminds me that God the Father picked the Jewish people to bring his truth to the world. There are prophecies about what happens in the end times re the Jews.

They didn't get it all right, but do we?

Which Christian denomination has a monopoly on the truth? Do you think there is one?


I see in your answers Rose, that you have let your emotions trump your thought processes. Why?

I am open to scriptural principles which guide our behavior. I am not open to one group having a monopoly on the truth.

Do we practise Christianity perfectly and in the first century, they did not?

I am very interested in your take on this.

By nature I am a peacemaker, not a diplomat. Peace comes from confronting truth and belief and letting truth win.

God Bless You
Charles
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10-19-2011, 09:40 AM
Post: #5
RE: General questions for former Messianics
Computerdoc why are your comments also appearing inside my quote, when you quote my quote, it is making the reading of your comments very awkward.I remember what I wrote so it's ok but whoever follows this thread will be getting confused.Can you please edit the post somehow so it doesn't look like I said the things you were saying, it's very confusing otherwise.

I'll try to answer your questions regardless.
When you were endorsing the heb4christians site I said that "Talmudic interpretations came about much later than Jesus and arose out of the religious system that rejected Him. " in response to that you wrote some questions that included


Quote: Is there only one religious system that rejects Yeshua? Or are we all responsible individually for our attitudes and behaviour?

Is there any one or any group which has a monopoly on the truth about Yeshua or Christianity?

then you included my question about it being appropriate to go to Hindu or Islamic writings in order to better understand the Gospel and responded with

Quote:Was Yeshua Jewish?

Did Christianity come from the Jews first?

If Hinduism was the root of Christianity, YES it would be appropriate. However neither Hinduism or Islam are roots of Christianity, Judaism IS.
I love my messiah. Why would I not want to know more about what it was like for him as a Jew?

You know when you first fall in love? You want to know EVERYTHING about the one you love.
Yes Jesus was jewish and Christianity began in Judaism, however the Talmud wasn't around then.The closest to the Talmudic thinking then would have been the Pharisees and Jesus wasn't really their number one fan, was He?

By studying the religion that arose after He died and the Temple was destroyed, a religion that rejected Him ,you won't get to know more about what it was like for Him as a jew as things changed a lot after the destruction of the Temple and loss of priesthood etc.
You will get to know a lot about Judaism though which is fine and nothing wrong with it however going back to my original point which was the site you recommended as having the true message. It's misleading to include so much Talmud in a site that is supposedly for Christians.
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10-19-2011, 10:08 AM
Post: #6
RE: General questions for former Messianics
Quote:What was the last supper? It was Passover. Passover is a seder.

Quote:Do you have a scripture to indicate that it is wrong to attend and be part of a seder? I have not found any yet.
The last supper was not a seder.They didn't have seders back then.The Temple was running and one had to obtain a lamb, keep it for 4 days then take it to priest for slaughter.The meal that ensued was lamb, bitter herbs and unleavened bread. It was not the seder that developed post Temple times.
As to there being anything "wrong" with it, not really, of itself.It's just a commemoration that is traditionally done by those practising Judaism.For christians to suddenly adopt those traditions thinking that they are being more like Christ for doing so or more like first century christians is unnecessary.
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10-19-2011, 11:58 AM
Post: #7
RE: General questions for former Messianics
Quote:Rose, You seem a little over-cautious about studying Judaic roots and I am sure there is a reason for it even if I guessed wrong above.

Charles, I am cautious because I once studied Talmud thinking that I would get a deeper insight into Christ and the First century church.I also thought that since Judaism was the religion of Christ that I would learn all I could about it.
What I found out after spending months and years on it was that Judaism is not the religion Christ practised.First century Judaism was diverse but certainly not what Judaism evolved to in subsequent centuries.
There was a time when I also tried to keep as much of the Mosaic Law as I could and for a while tried to honour the Sabbath by not cooking,driving etc.I also threw away all my trousers :D and tried to dress modestly the rabbinic way. Charles I spent many years in this and then slowly but surely realised how what I was doing was alienating me from Christ.It has been a wonderful journey in opening my eyes to so many things and now I do try to warn people of how useless it is to go down that road.
Hope you can understand where I'm coming from a bit better ,Charles.
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10-19-2011, 08:12 PM (This post was last modified: 10-27-2011 02:40 PM by Vic.)
Post: #8
RE: General questions for former Messianics
(10-19-2011 09:40 AM)Rose of Shushan Wrote:  Computerdoc why are your comments also appearing inside my quote, when you quote my quote, it is making the reading of your comments very awkward.I remember what I wrote so it's ok but whoever follows this thread will be getting confused.Can you please edit the post somehow so it doesn't look like I said the things you were saying, it's very confusing otherwise.

I'll try to answer your questions regardless.
When you were endorsing the heb4christians site I said that "Talmudic interpretations came about much later than Jesus and arose out of the religious system that rejected Him. " in response to that you wrote some questions that included


Quote: Is there only one religious system that rejects Yeshua? Or are we all responsible individually for our attitudes and behaviour?

Is there any one or any group which has a monopoly on the truth about Yeshua or Christianity?

then you included my question about it being appropriate to go to Hindu or Islamic writings in order to better understand the Gospel and responded with

Quote:Was Yeshua Jewish?

Did Christianity come from the Jews first?

If Hinduism was the root of Christianity, YES it would be appropriate. However neither Hinduism or Islam are roots of Christianity, Judaism IS.
I love my messiah. Why would I not want to know more about what it was like for him as a Jew?

You know when you first fall in love? You want to know EVERYTHING about the one you love.
Yes Jesus was jewish and Christianity began in Judaism, however the Talmud wasn't around then.The closest to the Talmudic thinking then would have been the Pharisees and Jesus wasn't really their number one fan, was He?

By studying the religion that arose after He died and the Temple was destroyed, a religion that rejected Him ,you won't get to know more about what it was like for Him as a jew as things changed a lot after the destruction of the Temple and loss of priesthood etc.
You will get to know a lot about Judaism though which is fine and nothing wrong with it however going back to my original point which was the site you recommended as having the true message. It's misleading to include so much Talmud in a site that is supposedly for Christians.

IN answer to your comment above, he wasn't around for the destruction of the temple etc. was he? At least not on earth. He was seated at the right hand of his father as his work was done.

That of course is why the Holy Spirit was poured out to guide us into truth since he was gone. Of course none of us listens perfectly to the promptings of the Holy Spirit but hopefully it is our goal.

Perhaps you need to contact John yourself and ask him the questions you are putting to me. That is always the best course of action is it not?


Sorry about the confusion. I was trying to make it obvious who said what and see the question and answer but due to colors continuing and a few errors you are right, it is very confusing.

I will try not to be so confusing (:-)

Let's talk about the site. Have you ever talked to John Parsons? I contacted him back when we had a problem with a young "rebel" in our church who found stuff online he liked about Jewish roots. I outright asked him about questions I had regarding this individual. Every question I had concerning the Judaic Christian rebel was answered to my satisfaction.

I think John's site is multi-purposed. I believe [my idea not his] that he would like to provide information for Christians about their Jewish roots since it is obvious there is an interest. I KNOW he also has articles which CORRECT false ideas like "going back to the torah once someone is a Christian. I believe also he hopes Jews [most of which are secular] would perhaps become interested and learn something about Christ.

That is my idea after reading many articles and talking to John about my concerns regarding our young rebel.

I sense perhaps an over-reaction which could have occurred for many reasons. I have read some of the individuals who have come out of the HR movement and see their confusion which is natural as some VERY unorthodox [in the sense of normal] teachings are going on. [Excuse my psychological brain from coming to conclusions which may not be real.]

Reactions are great if the truth comes out. But if emotions are allowed to cloud ideas, it may become too foggy to see anything clearly.

I know the truth-giver, the Holy Spirit who guides us [not controls us] into all truth.

God bless you

God bless all you former Messianics who may be confused.

God is not the author of confusion. Keep seeking him as you allow him to unconfuse you.

Go back to the scriptures and read what it says before accepting what any of us can say to you. It is easy for our beliefs and doctrines to cloud our minds at times.

Again God bless you [and hopefully this post will be less confusing.

At one point I started a Jewish Roots googlegroup to give the answers to those who have been confused by HR teachers who have become too spiritually proud to recognize truth. That was a response to all the letters I sent to the young rebel to correct the ideas with which he had been indoctrinated.

Is this less confusing?

I sensed that might be the case that you were part of the movement. It is very natural to over-react when you have been deceived by "nice people". Thank you for your explanation that I see in the next post.

Have you checked out {Links removed--Newbies are NOT allowed to post links as per forum rules. PLease read them if you have not done so--Vic} yet?

I think Joe is quite balanced. You might even want to join an Israel Prayer Watch group, who knows?

Thanks Rose. Hope I was not too harsh. Not meaning to be.
(09-14-2011 10:12 AM)Kalev Wrote:  I believe your understanding of the Hebrew Roots movement is skewed by some of the HR teachers you have heard about. It is not about being "Jewish" or mixing Judaism with Christianity. Both religions have altered the Word of God and adopted various forms of pagan worship into their belief system. Never having been Jewish I cannot properly address the pagan worship in that belief system. Having been raised in a Protestant Christian environment I can address that. How many people on this forum have taken a deep and close look at the Christian holidays? Like Christmas and Easter? Both are directly from pagan worship systems, Saturnalia is mithraism and Ishtar is directly from Nimrods Babylon. That in and of itself was enough to chase me out of Christendom. I use two websites as reference points as I have altered my belief in our Creator and His only begotten Son, {Links removed--Newbies are NOT allowed to post links as per forum rules. PLease read them if you have not done so--Vic} , please look into them and try to rethink your opinion of the Hebrew Roots movement.
God bless you, peace and love!

I think you may be over-reacting to inanimate names of days, Kalev.

Were you once a pagan Kalev?

I was. We all were. We were pagans before we believed in Yeshua.

God redeemed us and has no problem redeeming days which have no spirits.

We do not need to over-react to days named BEFORE we existed and most of us did not know about. I don't believe God is up there very concerned about the names of days.

I think he is MORE CONCERNED about HOW we spend our days.

This could be carried so far as to over-react to the name of a person that somehow in the long distant past was a pagan name.

Cannot we along with Paul continue in the race set before us, forgetting what is before.

I think this is good advice from Paul.


"New International Version (©1984)
Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead,

New Living Translation (©2007)
No, dear brothers and sisters, I have not achieved it, but I focus on this one thing: Forgetting the past and looking forward to what lies ahead,

English Standard Version (©2001)
Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead"


I cannot believe that God is concerned about minutiae when people are going to hell in handbaskets so to speak, when there is a world which needs the light that we have in Christ to shine from every hill we can find.

Let your light shine!

God bless you!
-Computerdoc

(10-19-2011 11:58 AM)Rose of Shushan Wrote:  
Quote:Rose, You seem a little over-cautious about studying Judaic roots and I am sure there is a reason for it even if I guessed wrong above.

Charles, I am cautious because I once studied Talmud thinking that I would get a deeper insight into Christ and the First century church.I also thought that since Judaism was the religion of Christ that I would learn all I could about it.
What I found out after spending months and years on it was that Judaism is not the religion Christ practised.First century Judaism was diverse but certainly not what Judaism evolved to in subsequent centuries.
There was a time when I also tried to keep as much of the Mosaic Law as I could and for a while tried to honour the Sabbath by not cooking,driving etc.I also threw away all my trousers :D and tried to dress modestly the rabbinic way. Charles I spent many years in this and then slowly but surely realised how what I was doing was alienating me from Christ.It has been a wonderful journey in opening my eyes to so many things and now I do try to warn people of how useless it is to go down that road.
Hope you can understand where I'm coming from a bit better ,Charles.

Thank you Rose, I suspected as much.

I understand. I know that you are over-cautious because you have been there and want to help prevent others from having the confusion that you had.

God bless you.

I have to admit I am still a bit confused about how my comments are appearing. I may just have figured it out.
OK.
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10-19-2011, 09:54 PM
Post: #9
RE: General questions for former Messianics
Thanks for trying to make your post easier to read.What I try to do is keep my posts a certain colour and then do Bible verses in another and then use the quote feature for whenever anyone else is quoted.This way I find I get less confused.

I haven't got round to watching the dot tv site you mentioned yet since I've been very busy this evening.

Regarding the Israel Prayer watch you suggested, I did use to be part of a group that specifically prayed for Israel however the owner fell out with me since I prayed for the Palestinians and she didn't like that.Therefore I'd rather stick to praying with groups that pray for all groups of people and not just focus specifically on one group to the neglect of others.
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10-19-2011, 11:43 PM
Post: #10
RE: General questions for former Messianics
(10-19-2011 09:54 PM)Rose of Shushan Wrote:  Thanks for trying to make your post easier to read.What I try to do is keep my posts a certain colour and then do Bible verses in another and then use the quote feature for whenever anyone else is quoted.This way I find I get less confused.

I haven't got round to watching the dot tv site you mentioned yet since I've been very busy this evening.

Regarding the Israel Prayer watch you suggested, I did use to be part of a group that specifically prayed for Israel however the owner fell out with me since I prayed for the Palestinians and she didn't like that.Therefore I'd rather stick to praying with groups that pray for all groups of people and not just focus specifically on one group to the neglect of others.

Chaque chacun.

Of course Palestinians need prayer. Of the 70 plus groups we support in Israel, they reach out to all races, Jews of every color, Arabs, Druze, those who are homeless, the addicted, the poor and many more. Joe is actually the official head of that group called Operation Outreach started by his father Clyde W.

And the Palestinians especially as they are taught from a child that it is Allah's highest will to give their lives as a martyr by killing Israelis. They are taught that all Israelis should die. Their textbooks are full of hate. The TV programs likewise stress hate of the Jews. So they are educated into a world of hate by those leaders who deceive them into thinking this is Allah's will.

If God could reach Paul, a Hebrew of the Hebrews, then God can reach into the hate-filled country and touch hearts and he has.

You may want to check out Noni Darwish story, the daughter of a Shahid, Mark Gabriel's story and Brigitte Gabriel who warns America about the Muslim Brotherhood's plans to use American democracy to accomplish their own purposes.

I have heard testimonials of those who were sent to an area to subvert the people and met some Christians that really cared for them in their time of need and were converted.

God is great.
God bless you.

PS. I was somewhat confused by this forum as it is a bit different from those I am used to. I should be used to many since I have about 30 - 40 websites and blogs myself including forums.
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