(05-13-2009 02:40 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote:
(05-13-2009 01:20 AM)LindaR Wrote: If the "saints" in Revelation are the Church, then who will be left to "rapture" after the Great Tribulation? And who would be left to reign in the Millennial Kingdom? In Revelation 13, it states that "the beast" overcomes the "saints":
And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome (nikao) them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. (Revelation 13:7)
Strong's Greek Dictionary
from 3529; to subdue (literally or figuratively):--conquer, overcome, prevail, get the victory
How is this possible when Jesus said that "the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" (the Church) in Matthew 16:18? Doesn't making the "saints" the Church in Revelation and in other verses pertaining to the Great Tribulation, contradict Matthew 16:18?
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. (Matthew 16:18)
Quote:I am wondering if you are differentiating between the spiritual and the physical? The church/body is not overcome spiritually, but we are overcome physically. Is this how you view it as well?
It's both spiritual and physical. The individual members of the Body of Christ will never suffer the torments of hell, nor will the Church as a whole, suffer the torments of hell.
Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
What is B'nai Israel? Is that the nation of Israel?
Quote:and what did Jesus say? Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
The "elect" is Israel, not the Church. There's no "church" mentioned in Matthew 24-25. The Olivet Discourse speaks of the nation of Israel.
Would you agree that if Matt 24-25 is specifically about B'nai Israel, then Jesus is not referring to the rapture in that passage?
Jesus is not referring to the Rapture in Matthew 24:29-20. That is the Second Coming.
Quote:Nobody is inventing a separate group of Tribulation "saints". The "Tribulation saints" are those who refuse to receive the "Mark of the Beast"...they will be martyred. Why is the Church not mentioned at all from Revelation 4:1-18:24? The presence of the Holy Spirit indwelling the Church is the "restraining" factor keeping the Antichrist (the "beast") from unleahing his evil in this world. Once He (the Holy Spirit indwelling the Church) is "taken out of the way" (2 Thess. 2:7), all "hell" will break loose! God will pour out His judgment on the Christ-rejecting world and fulfill His covenant with the nation of Israel (Romans 11:25-27)
Quote:Let me ask this:
The Holy Spirit indwelling the Body of Christ/the Church is "taken out of the way"....not removed. Since the Holy Spirit is God and God is omnipresent, His presence will still remain on the earth...but He will not "indwell". He will work as He did in the Old Testament times...He will "come upon" people as He came upon David:
If the church is removed and the Holy Spirit---how does anyone come to Christ and have the Holy Spirit during the tribulation - in other words, how does one become a 'tribulation saint' if the Holy Spirit is not at work? How do trib saints get saved if the Holy Spirit is not calling them to repentance?
Hope you don't mind the questions, but I am struggling to understand this concept.
Is there a different type of hell and heaven as well for trib saints, because they would be inferior spiritually, right?
Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. (Psalms 51:11)
The Holy Spirit "departed" from Saul:
But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him. (1 Samuel 16:14)
Hell will be the same for all the lost; heaven will be the same for all the "saints" of every age. God is not respector of persons. If you are lost you go to hell...if you are saved (only one way to be saved), your eternal home is heaven.
Quote:God will pour out His judgment on the Christ-rejecting world and fulfill His covenant with the nation of Israel.
In Rev 16 it talks about the vials of wrath that are poured out - it looks to me like men do not repent, but curse God.
Rev 16:9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which has power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
Rev 16:10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial on the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
Rev 16:11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
So if all men are cursing God for the afflictions, how can any be saved during the trib?
All who reject God’s call to salvation and choose to stay in their sin will be given over to Satan and his man of the tribulation hour, Antichrist. They will fall for his lies, and be damned forever. They will be damned, without hope of redemption, when they take Antichrist’s mark. (Revelation 13).
I believe that many will be saved during the first 3 1/2 years of the Tribulation. There will be worldwide persecution of those who refuse to follow the Antichrist. They will be martyred.
Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. (Matthew 24:9-10)
And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. (Revelation 13:7-8)
I also believe that the "martyred saints" from the great tribulation are the Jewish people and the Gentiles who will be converted through the ministry of the Jews (the 144,000 "sealed" from the 12 tribes of the children of Israel..Rev. 7:4-8).
And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. (Revelation 7:14)
Quote:An interesting verse:
1Pe 2:17 Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.
If this is for the trib saints, who have the NT --- then are they being told to honor the anti-christ?
1 & 2 Peter wasn't written to tribulation saints. I think both epistles of Peter were written to NT believers (to "strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia," 1 Peter 1:1b)
...probably also to the same group for Peter's second epistle. These were considered "General epistles"...not written to any particular "church", but to various groups of people...as was the epistle of James, which was written "to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting." (James 1:1b)
In my last post (which I need to edit) I posted Matthew 24:29-20...I meant Matthew 24:29-30.
(05-13-2009 02:46 PM)Strefanash Wrote: I am familiar with tre trib teaching. I believed it for quite a few years
That it is the Holy Spirit indwelling the Church who is the restrainer is an assumption. I do not see it as axiomatic.
An argument from silence (that the word church does not appear after Rev 4) does not establish anything. It is circumstantial and only bears weight when co opted by the pre tribulationists to support their system. As the creationists say, an absense of evidence is not the same thing as evidence of absense
As for the mass martyrdom of the church contradicting the fact that the gates of hell will not overcome the church, this is refuted by the resurrection of the dead in christ. That I will likely be dead come the time of the rapture does not mean that Satan has overcome me to the destructin of my faith, so why would the near extinction (near, but not total, for Paul said that the dead in christ would rise but first we who were alive would also be snatched up to meet Him in the air) imply that Satan would have triumphed over the church. The death of Christ did not mean Satan has triumphed because the resurrection sealed Christ's triumph over Satan .
You are saying there are saints outside the church when you are saying that the elect is not the church. This has disturbing soteriological and dispensational implications. One is ONLY saved by faith. Hence I reject dispensationalism. Onis is ONLY a saint if one comes to christ lest christ be NOT the only way. Therefore the saints are those who have come to christ, hence the saints and the church are the same thing and their cannot be saints outside of it (more later if necessary, I must to work)
To say that the discourse on the mount of Olives was about Israel is to miss its own context. The disciples asked the Master what were the signs of the end, and He said to them "you will be persecuted etc". The plainest reading is that the sermon here was to the disciples and about them. HE spoke to the disciples, not to the Jews in public. THerefore it was certainly for the church. To force it to apply to Israel is to avoid the message of tribulation persecution and death
In my opinion those who originated the pre trib rapture were afraid of suffering martyrdom and death, yet the historucal church not only knew it but expected it
Where is the Scripture to back up what you are saying?