What About The Rapture?

[sheep wrecked]

Quote: sheep:"If the saints rise from the dead" is the same thing as "it's the dead bodies of the saints that rise".

However; 1 Thess 4 says that the dead saints rise to meet Christ in the air first and are then changed in the twinkling of an eye. Do you agree with this?

Quote:Salty one:
To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Why would we be present with the Lord and then be thrown back down to the earth so we can rise again? Unless you believe as a JW does that when we die we go to the grave and stay there.

sheep: If I am understanding you, you believe that when we die our bodies go to heaven?

How do understand this text?


1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Quote:salty one:
The questioned I asked was:: What is the event described in Matt 24:30-31?? Meaning: is this a reference to /is this the same event as 1 Thes 4 :16-17 and 1 Cor 15:51-52.

sheep: It's all the same event - all three passages.

Quote:saltyone:
I guess you did not read again what I showed you. The fine linen is the righteousness of the saints.

We disagree on this point. Both angels and saints are described the same way. However; there is no Scripture to support that saints are the army of God, but many verses that show the angels are His armies.

The context of Rev 19 does not support saints as the army. Verses 8 and 9 show that the bride is prepared for the wedding feast of the Lamb. If they go out to fight, they are no longer "clean and white" [they are bloody]. If you look at verses 19 and 20 which shows the end of the "battle" - it is not the saints that depose of satan/the beast [enemies of Christ], it is the angels.

Rev 19:6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
Rev 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Quote:saltyone:
Matt 13:40-41 is not the gathering of the elect.

sheep:
It says that it is. It is the end of the world. Finis, done, over, completed.

Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Mat 13:44 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.
Mat 13:45 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls:
Mat 13:46 Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it.
Mat 13:47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
Mat 13:48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Mat 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.


Here again, the angels are the ones to fight, and sever the just from the unjust and cast them into hell - not the saints. The angels are waging war.

Quote: saltyone: There are two things that happen at different times.
1 The Lord comes by himself to gather his elect. The key is: he comes to gather his saints and he comes by himself.

2. The Lords comes with his saints to war against the kings of the earth, to slay them and setup His kingdom and rule the nations with an Iron Rod. The key: He comes with his saints which are already in heaven

This is how I believe it to be. Otherwise you have a contradiction in the word of God

sheep: Points one and two contradict each other, because you have Jesus coming back twice. Jesus only comes once. He does not "gather the elect", take them to Heaven and then come back with them in tow. The angels gather the elect:

Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mar 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.


Also, the elect cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven until they have incorruptible bodies and that happens at the sound of the trump and the voice of the archangel. Those who accompany the Lord when He returns are the spirits of the dead saints. Their spirits are reunited with their bodies. Then all of us, past and present, are changed in a twinkling of an eye into our incorruptible spiritual bodies so we can enter heaven in bodily form and be forever with the Lord.

Jesus is already ruling the nations with a rod of iron. He already overcame all His enemies, but death - meaning, our bodily death. Spiritually, we never die. No one does, neither saved or unsaved. Either your spirit is with the Lord or is in "waiting" for judgment and the second death. According to the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man, it appears as though they are in hell.

Quote:saltyone:
You just proved my point. If this is the same event, which you are saying it is, then it is a contradiction. They only way this can be true is if these are 2 separate events. Just as I tried to say above.

It is the same event, not two separate ones. Matt 24 says nothing about the saints in Heaven not coming with Christ. That is inserted into the passage as if it were so.

Quote: saltyone:
brother sheep wrecked
You are reading, but you are not understanding what you read. Because you are reading to make it fit your beliefs, and not to understand what God is trying to say. When you read, don't think you already know what something means or is telling you before you read it. Read it as if you were reading it for the first time and God will show you many things about his word.

sheep: Again, we will have to agree to disagree. I read the Bible as written. I do not add things that are not there. I see clearly, from the Scriptures, of which I quoted many - that there is one main event. Summarizing, but not specifically in order, Jesus returns and when He does it will be a glorious, unimaginable event. The world will come to an end, the wicked and unbelievers will worship the Lord along with the believers [every tribe and tongue], and then be judged. Those in Christ will be changed bodily - both dead and alive - so that they can live forever with the Lord here on earth where Jesus returns to set up His Kingdom on a new earth and in a new Heaven. It all happens at once. There is no timetable other than how God has set it up and we just do not know. And quite simply put, I don't care how it happens

It is not staged event following a script for us to read. It is a mystery how all will happen. And it will "go down" as God has planned. The Bible only gives us hints as to what will happen in the end and it uses a ton of allegory. I think it is fruitless to figure it all out and to debate. In the end, God will do what He will. I do not think about these things, I read the Bible, not what man teaches. I just want to live for Christ and allow Him preeminance in my life. I belong to Him no matter how it all works out in the end. I leave it in His Hands.

Quote:saltyone:
God tells us to watch and pray. I see this as a command, not a suggestion. Many people have a false belief of a pretrib rapture. But when the great tribulation comes and they are still here, their faith will wan. They will lose hope, wondering why the Lord has not come back yet. They will not believe in Jesus or the bible anymore because they were told that they would be raptured according the bible and it has not happened. I think it is very important to know what we believe, be watchful and pray that you will preserver until the end.

The reason people loose hope is because they try to figure out how it's all going to happen when Jesus returns.

We don't have to watch and pray for Christ to come. He IS coming, and when He does, the world will come to a screeching halt and every eye will see Him. No one will miss His return.

Quote:sheep:
I have never really thought of "watch and pray" as meaning to watch for Jesus to come. I believe from the context that we are supposed to be concentrating on how we are living - whether it be for the Lord or not.

Quote:saltyone:
Well you don’t have to think of watch and pray to mean watch for Jesus to come. That’s not what it says and that’s not what I said. I said you are to know the times. Watch means to guard, observe, be aware of . If we are aware and know that war and hard times are coming we should pray lest our hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and cares of this life.
You even quoted it down below, but still do not truly understand what it means.

The text states that we are watch and pray that we fall not.

There have been wars, rumors of war, tribulation, hard times, death, disease, poverty and abuse of every kind since Genesis. People can try and make the Bible "fit" into your own box, but so have many others over the last 2,000. Every generation believed they were the last. And people from almost every generation have "set the date". Thinking on such things takes one's focus off the Lord.

Luk 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
Luk 21:35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
Luk 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always,that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Quote:sheep:
Can you find me where Scripture speaks of "The Great Tribulation"? Thanx!

Quote:saltyone:
At the midpoint of the 70th week, the abomination of desolation

Matt 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

sheep: It does not say "The Great Tribulation". It says, "great tribulation". Do you not think that when Jerusalem was destroyed in 70AD and millions of Jews were slain and thousand fled for their lives that they did not experience "great tribulation"? Did Jesus not warn us that daily we would have tribulation? Do you not think that the millions of Christians who have been murdered for the last 2,000+ have not suffered "great tribulation"? Christians today in 3rd world countries, China, etc? Tribulation is what Christians should expect.

The 70 weeks have long been fulfilled. The daily sacrifice was taken away through Christ. The abomination of desolation of Daniel 12 was the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple, which is part of the prophecy of Christ in Matt 24 and Luke 17 as well.