Does Jesus bring a new Torah with the New Covenant?

[Rose of Shushan]

Does Jesus bring a new Torah?

I hear it said in Hebrew roots/messianic circles that the Torah of Moses /Sinai is still in force. I propose however, that being in a new covenant and proclaiming the Kingdom of God to the whole world (not just Israel), Jesus gives us a new Torah i.e. a new set of instructions.

Let us turn to the OT to see if there are any verses to support this.

Quote:Isa 2:3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

Quote:Isa 11:4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.

Quote:Mic 4:2 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

Quote:Isa 42:4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.

Quote:Isa 42:21 The LORD was pleased, for his righteousness' sake, to magnify his law and make it glorious.

Quote:Isa 51:4 Hearken unto me, my people; and give ear unto me, O my nation: for a law shall proceed from me, and I will make my judgment to rest for a light of the people.

Quote:Isa 51:7 Hearken unto me, ye that know righteousness, the people in whose heart is my law; fear ye not the reproach of men, neither be ye afraid of their revilings.

Quote:Isa 51:16 And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people.

[Rose of Shushan]

In Isaiah 42:4 we see

Quote:Isa 42:4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.

Lo yichheh ve lo yarutz ad yasim baaretz mishpat u´ le torato iyyim yeyachelu

It says he shall not fail (lo yichheh) or be crushed( lo yarutz) until (ad) he has established mishpat in the earth. Now mishpat can be judgement but also decrees or rulings or law.The next part of the verse says u le torato(and to/for his Torah), the isles (iyyim) wait (yeyachelu).

So it seems this servant brings Torah, his Torah literally and rulings or decrees.. Lets see if there are other references that may confirm this.


In Isaiah 49 it begins by another reference to these isles or coastlands that are waiting for the servant´s Torah.

Quote:Isa 49:1 Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The LORD hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.
Isa 49:2 And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me;

He has made my mouth like a sharp sword. What does this tell us? Why a sword? Could it be that
through his words and teaching there will be the power of life or death. In the NT we see the word of God and Jesus' speech being compared to a sharp sword.



Lets turn to a passage which even orthodox Judaism admits is about Messiah and that is Isaiah chapter 11.

Quote:Isa 11:4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
Isa 11:5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.

Here we see that the Branch that stems from the Rod of Jesse (Is 11:1) smites the earth with the rod of his mouth. What rod of his mouth is he referring to? Is it not the sword of his words and teaching?

[grafted]

From my limited understanding, this is what I have found"
"Keep the law, but the law condems, but it isn't a curse anymore because Jesus became the curse and took it away, but the law cannot save, but we are saved by grace through faith, but faith without works is dead, but we are not to rely on the works of the law, but walk by faith".

I have found similar mentions of this from Matthew 5, through 2 Peter, where he speaks of the lawless.
So is the law current, according to Matthew 5 it is:

Quote:Mat 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
Mat 5:18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

But the curse was removed.

Quote:Gal 3:13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us--for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree"--
Gal 3:14 so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.

So my first statement at the beginning has legs; will it stand?

[aahavaa]

Hey Grafted,

nice to see you on here
you wrote

Quote:But the curse was removed.

If by law you mean Sinai law and you say it still stands yet its curse is removed, does it mean that we can now sin but there´s no penalty? Do you mean that God removed the curses that came with the Sinai Covenant? What about the blessings? Were they removed or did they stay?
Maybe I misunderstood what you meant in your post. Otherwise I get a bit LOL
Since as a Christian I believe that we are in the New Covenant ,with its particular conditions, not the one at Sinai where God said "If you keep my commandments…"

If we say the Sinai covenant is in force but now the curse is gone, would that mean that after the death of Jesus, God still commands us to do certain things but now there is no penalty for disobedience?
Wouldn’t that be God modifying the conditions of the Covenant and leaving commandments with no repercussions. It is like we are told commands but if we obey it doesn’t matter so the obedience is not secured.
In the New Covenant we see that God secures the obedience by writing his Laws in our hearts. It is the Holy spirit in us that causes us to obey ,because we want to and it becomes part of our nature .
Is it the Torah of Sinai that we obey?
Abraham obeyed Gods laws, statues and commandments yet the Laws of Sinai hadn’t been given yet. In same way I observe the words of Jesus which were the words God gave him to give to us. So I am observing his Laws just as Abraham did and neither I nor Abraham are bound to the laws at Sinai.

Quote:Gal 3:14 so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.

the promise of the Spirit indwelling is contained within the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31, it was not a feature of the Sinai one

anyway Grafted ,I welcome your thoughts on this...and those of others

[grafted]

(12-14-2008 12:36 PM)aahavaa Wrote:  Hey Grafted,

nice to see you on here
you wrote

Quote:But the curse was removed.

If by law you mean Sinai law and you say it still stands yet its curse is removed, does it mean that we can now sin but there´s no penalty? Do you mean that God removed the curses that came with the Sinai Covenant? What about the blessings? Were they removed or did they stay?
Maybe I misunderstood what you meant in your post. Otherwise I get a bit LOL
Since as a Christian I believe that we are in the New Covenant ,with its particular conditions, not the one at Sinai where God said "If you keep my commandments…"

If we say the Sinai covenant is in force but now the curse is gone, would that mean that after the death of Jesus, God still commands us to do certain things but now there is no penalty for disobedience?
Wouldn’t that be God modifying the conditions of the Covenant and leaving commandments with no repercussions. It is like we are told commands but if we obey it doesn’t matter so the obedience is not secured.
In the New Covenant we see that God secures the obedience by writing his Laws in our hearts. It is the Holy spirit in us that causes us to obey ,because we want to and it becomes part of our nature .
Is it the Torah of Sinai that we obey?
Abraham obeyed Gods laws, statues and commandments yet the Laws of Sinai hadn’t been given yet. In same way I observe the words of Jesus which were the words God gave him to give to us. So I am observing his Laws just as Abraham did and neither I nor Abraham are bound to the laws at Sinai.

Quote:Gal 3:14 so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.

the promise of the Spirit indwelling is contained within the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31, it was not a feature of the Sinai one

anyway Grafted ,I welcome your thoughts on this...and those of others

What was the curse of the law.

[strefanash]

[quote='Rose of Shushan' pid='83' dateline='1229220115']
Does Jesus bring a new Torah?

I hear it said in Hebrew roots/messianic circles that the Torah of Moses /Sinai is still in force. I propose however, that being in a new covenant and proclaiming the Kingdom of God to the whole world (not just Israel), Jesus gives us a new Torah i.e. a new set of instructions.

Strefanash

I venture that NO he does not give a new set of instructions. Because in our sin we never kept the old Law the purpose of his grace is to change us so that we do keep the old law, but by this i mean the moral law, the 10 commandments. The ceremonial law is rendered irrelevant by the cross of christ, the food laws and cultural laws were to run the the society of israel and to make a point as to the holiness of God, thus they are shadows and types, all fulfilled in christ. Paul's letter to the Hebrews makes this clear.

After all the new commandment that he gave us "love one another as Ii have loved you" might have been new to them but it was merely a reiteration of the greatest commandment of the Law, to love God and your neighbour.

But to make a law of it (a commandment in a book that we must strive to obey by force against our emotions to the contrary) is to be back where you started: in the flesh, under condemnation even if only self condemnation, and estranged from christ and his abundant life

Of course the transformation into new creations is a process of his continuing action, not an immediate thing on conversion. If we overestimmate the change we have received we will try by force to make it manifest, and if we try by willpower to force obedience to the moral law we have forsaken christ to try perfection in the flesh.

What needs to be looked at it the concept of "in force" whereby a law is "in force". The ONLY result of being under the law is DEATH, as Paul made it perfectly clear and my experience of agony over 30 years of striving confirms this that the law is impossible.

God does not empower our forced efforts to obey the external forms of the law, because nature of our efforts precludes this. His grace is something else other than an energy source to empower our resolves

Though the law is in force yet that does not require our forced effort. we are removed from the jurisdiction of the Law (Paul said all this in Romans and Galatians) because the ONLY resuilt of the jurisdiction of the law is death, for Paul called it the ministry of condemnation.

the new creation is where rivers of living water flow spontaneously (that's what living waters mean) from us, ie we do what is right out of spontaneous delight and joy. If we do not we are forcing our good acts which turns them into works of law (as Paul called them) which are worthless. It is all a matter of motivation. If we force our selves what we are forcing against reveals the evil motivation, our force does not reveal our good motivation. Our forced effort is the whitened sepulchre, and the impulse we fight in us is the dead men's bones that fester. And of course the bitterness that results within us is highly dangerous, and can lead to the blasphemy of the Spirit whereby the true stil small voice of grace is rejected outright. I came close enogh to this. God in his mercy told me so and lead me to repent of the sin leading to this state before i got there.

Right neighbourly of Him, dont you think?

I must go to work now. More later

[aahavaa]

Hi again grafted

Quote:What was the curse of the law.

The Law brought with it a curse when it wasn’t kept in its entirety.

Quote:Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continues not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Paul quotes from

Quote:Deu 27:26 Cursed be he that confirms not ALL the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen.

In Deuteronomy chapter 28 we have a list of those blessings and curses. I will not paste chapter here because its long but up to v 13 we have the blessings.

When we reach verse 15 it says

Quote:Deu 28:15 But it shall come to pass, if you will not hearken unto the voice of the LORD your God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command you this day; that all these curses shall come upon you, and overtake you:
Deu 28:16 Cursed shall you be in the city, and cursed shall you be in the field.
Deu 28:17 Cursed shall be your basket and your kneading-trough.

From there on follow a long list of curses to long to post here. Hope this helps to show what the curse was

[aahavaa]

Hey again grafted,

dont mean to :poke: LOL but wasn´t too sure of what you meant by

Quote:I have found similar mentions of this from Matthew 5, through 2 Peter, where he speaks of the lawless.
So is the law current, according to Matthew 5 it is:

Quote:Mat 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
Mat 5:18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

What exactly do you mean by the law is current? :thinking:

[sheep wrecked]

(12-14-2008 03:02 PM)strefanash Wrote:  [quote='Rose of Shushan' pid='83' dateline='1229220115']
Does Jesus bring a new Torah?

I hear it said in Hebrew roots/messianic circles that the Torah of Moses /Sinai is still in force. I propose however, that being in a new covenant and proclaiming the Kingdom of God to the whole world (not just Israel), Jesus gives us a new Torah i.e. a new set of instructions.

Strefanash

I venture that NO he does not give a new set of instructions. Because in our sin we never kept the old Law the purpose of his grace is to change us so that we do keep the old law, but by this i mean the moral law, the 10 commandments. The ceremonial law is rendered irrelevant by the cross of christ, the food laws and cultural laws were to run the the society of israel and to make a point as to the holiness of God, thus they are shadows and types, all fulfilled in christ. Paul's letter to the Hebrews makes this clear.

After all the new commandment that he gave us "love one another as Ii have loved you" might have been new to them but it was merely a reiteration of the greatest commandment of the Law, to love God and your neighbour.

But to make a law of it (a commandment in a book that we must strive to obey by force against our emotions to the contrary) is to be back where you started: in the flesh, under condemnation even if only self condemnation, and estranged from christ and his abundant life

Of course the transformation into new creations is a process of his continuing action, not an immediate thing on conversion. If we overestimmate the change we have received we will try by force to make it manifest, and if we try by willpower to force obedience to the moral law we have forsaken christ to try perfection in the flesh.

What needs to be looked at it the concept of "in force" whereby a law is "in force". The ONLY result of being under the law is DEATH, as Paul made it perfectly clear and my experience of agony over 30 years of striving confirms this that the law is impossible.

God does not empower our forced efforts to obey the external forms of the law, because nature of our efforts precludes this. His grace is something else other than an energy source to empower our resolves

Though the law is in force yet that does not require our forced effort. we are removed from the jurisdiction of the Law (Paul said all this in Romans and Galatians) because the ONLY resuilt of the jurisdiction of the law is death, for Paul called it the ministry of condemnation.

the new creation is where rivers of living water flow spontaneously (that's what living waters mean) from us, ie we do what is right out of spontaneous delight and joy. If we do not we are forcing our good acts which turns them into works of law (as Paul called them) which are worthless. It is all a matter of motivation. If we force our selves what we are forcing against reveals the evil motivation, our force does not reveal our good motivation. Our forced effort is the whitened sepulchre, and the impulse we fight in us is the dead men's bones that fester. And of course the bitterness that results within us is highly dangerous, and can lead to the blasphemy of the Spirit whereby the true stil small voice of grace is rejected outright. I came close enogh to this. God in his mercy told me so and lead me to repent of the sin leading to this state before i got there.

Right neighbourly of Him, dont you think?

I must go to work now. More later

You make some excellent points that I want to just make note of here - definitely worth thinking over:


* ... the food laws and cultural laws were to run the the society of israel and to make a point as to the holiness of God, thus they are shadows and types, all fulfilled in christ. Paul's letter to the Hebrews makes this clear.

I am reminded of two texts:

Mar 7:18 And he said to them, Are you so without understanding also? Do you not perceive, that whatever thing from without enters into the man, it cannot defile him;
Mar 7:19 Because it enters not into his heart, but into the belly, and goes out into the draught, purging all meats?
Mar 7:20 And he said, That which comes out of the man, that defiles the man.
Mar 7:21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
Mar 7:22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
Mar 7:23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

Rom 14:14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteems any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
Rom 14:15 But if your brother be grieved with your meat, now walk you not charitably. Destroy not him with your meat, for whom Christ died.
Rom 14:16 Let not then your good be evil spoken of:
Rom 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

* But to make a law of it (a commandment in a book that we must strive to obey by force against our emotions to the contrary) is to be back where you started: in the flesh, under condemnation even if only self condemnation, and estranged from christ and his abundant life.

I more than discovered this when I was in Hebrew Roots. The harder I tried to keep the Law, the more I failed. All the teaching that the Holy Spirit would help you keep the Law was dreadfully false. It's interesting that the NT never states this. What it says is that the Holy Spirit will renew and transform your heart and mind to be like Christ.

* "The new creation is where rivers of living water flow spontaneously (that's what living waters mean) from us, ie we do what is right out of spontaneous delight and joy."

I really like that!!! I don't think anyone who has not been in bondage to the "Law" can fully understand what it's like to be freed from it. The guilt of that time is still very fresh in my memory - but not as poignant as the joy and delight I have now that I am free from it and truly in the simplicity that is in Christ

[grafted]

(12-14-2008 05:40 PM)aahavaa Wrote:  Hey again grafted,

dont mean to :poke: LOL but wasn´t too sure of what you meant by

Quote:I have found similar mentions of this from Matthew 5, through 2 Peter, where he speaks of the lawless.
So is the law current, according to Matthew 5 it is:

Quote:Mat 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
Mat 5:18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

What exactly do you mean by the law is current? :thinking:

Simply what Jesus said, as heaven and earth still remain so does the law. Being such the law remains, but are we under it...umm, now it becomes fun, since:

Mat 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
Mat 5:18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
Mat 5:19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.


And now the real fun begins!


Gal 5:14 For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
Gal 5:15 But if you bite and devour one another, watch out that you are not consumed by one another.
Gal 5:16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.
Gal 5:17 For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do.
Gal 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.


This leaves us with......yes I'm being coy.