What About The Rapture?

[Rose of Shushan]

Quote:The New Covenant in His blood was enacted at the Last Supper:

For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. (Matthew 26:28)

not after 70 AD.

The destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD by the armies of Titus was not the judgment which was predictied in Zechariah.

Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. (Zechariah 14:1-4)

This is speaking of the Second Coming...when Jesus Christ returns to the earth to save Israel from being destroyed by the nations of the world....it's called the battle of Armageddon.

Hi again. Linda I agree that the new covenant was enacted at the last supper, my wording wasn’t clear. I lumped in AD70 since that is when judgement came upon the nation of Israel as Jesus had prophesied, the Temple was destroyed and Israel scattered taken and scattered among the nations. What Zechariah prophesied did come true ,history speaks for itself. In AD 70 Jerusalem was destroyed and a remnant did remain until the Bar Kochba revolt when then even the remaining ones were either exiled, sold into slavery or just plain murdered.
The battle is spiritual Linda. If it wasn’t would it make sense .

For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

So if this is end time scenario God brings nations against Jerusalem and allows them to rape the women take them captive etc. and then he battles them???? Huh? Why not before all that takes place.

Isaiah speaks of this spiritual battle too.

Isa 42:13 The LORD shall go forth as a mighty man, he shall stir up jealousy like a man of war: he shall cry, yea, shout aloud; he shall prevail against his enemies.
Isa 42:14 I have long time held my peace; I have been still, and restrained myself: now will I cry like a travailing woman; I will destroy and devour at once.
Isa 42:15 I will lay waste the mountains and hills, and dry up all their vegetation; and I will turn the rivers into islands, and I will dry up the pools.
Isa 42:16 And I will bring the blind by a way that they knew not; I will lead them in paths that they have not known: I will make darkness light before them, and crooked things straight. These things will I do unto them, and not forsake them.


Isa 63:1 Who is this that comes from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, traveling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.
Isa 63:2 Why are you red in your apparel, and your garments like him that treads in the winepress?
Isa 63:3 I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in my anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.
Isa 63:4 For the day of vengeance is in my heart, and the year of my redeemed has come.
Isa 63:5 And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore my own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me.
Isa 63:6 And I will tread down the people in my anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth.

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goes forth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

The wrath that should have befallen us fell on him .He did the spiritual battle. Jesus isnt going to be fighting the nations physically is he? Linda how do you see this? What kind of battle is it? We see there that he smites the nations with a sharp sword that goes out of his mouth. So his "sword" are his words.Isaiah speak s of it too.


Isa 49:2 And he has made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand has he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver has he hid me;

Isa 11:4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and decide with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall strike the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
So Linda does the Messiah have breath so bad he kills the people or does it mean that the power of life and death are in his words?

Rev 14:17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
Rev 14:18 And another angel came out from the altar, who had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in your sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
Rev 14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
Rev 14:20 And the winepress was trodden outside the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horses’ bridles, for a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

As to the winepress mentioned in Rev 19:15 quoted above. Revelation tells us that the winepress is the wrath of God.The wrath of God also did befall the city of Jeruslalem in AD70 and AD 135.Historians record that the blood run through the streets and that people weren’t allowed to bury their dead for 17 years.


Consider Joshua and what he said

Jos 23:3 And you have seen all that the LORD your God has done unto all these nations because of you; for the LORD your God is he that has fought for you.

Did God fight physically there? No we know that Joshua and his men fought but God obtained the victory for them.

Jos 23:9 For the LORD has driven out from before you great nations and strong: but as for you, no man has been able to stand before you unto this day.
Jos 23:10 One man of you shall chase a thousand: for the LORD your God, he it is that fights for you, as he has promised you.

God even fought against his own people,look.

Isa 63:10 But they rebelled, and grieved his holy Spirit: therefore he turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them.

So God battling in the nations in Zechariah can be interpreted a number of ways.

I want to address more of your post but I need sleep LOL..tomorrow I continue.

[Liberated by Faith]

The prophecy of Zechariah 14 was not of the destruction of the Temple in 70AD. Zechariah was speaking of the battle in Megiddo, not the events of 70AD.

There is no mention in 70 AD of this event happening:
Zechariah 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.


The consuming of flesh, eyes and tongues while one was standing on one's feet never happened in 70AD. Those who destroyed the Temple lived to fight another day. Do a study of the history of the ones who headed this destruction and you will find that they did not die while standing on their feet and their tongues, eyes and flesh was eaten away.

The argument that the events of 70AD were the fulfilment of Zechariah's prophecy are shot down in light of what Zechariah said would happen.

[Anddra]

Rose, your comments suggest that you hold a Preterist view. If this is not the case, then the following comments will simply serve to show why such a view does not accord with scripture.

The Preterist view that all the prophecies were fulfilled in AD70 conflicts with Revelation. The Preterist view ignores Revelation's claims to be a prophecy (Revelation 1:3; 22:7, 10, 18-19). The second coming of Christ described in chapter 19 has not yet occurred. The Preterist view requires that the words concerning Jesus' second coming as fulfilled in the destruction of the temple in AD70, even although He did not appear on that occasion. Also, Revelation 16:12-16 speaks of the River Euphrates being dried up to make way for the Kings of the East to come against Israel for the Battle of Armageddon. This has not yet happened. One further point, I understand that Revelation was not written until about 95 or 96 AD. Iraneus was a disciple of Polycarp who was a disciple of John who wrote Revelation. Iraneus claimed that Polycarp told him that the book was written in the days of Dometian who left office around 95 or 96 AD.

For myself, as you can no doubt see from my comments, I subscribe to the futurist view of Revelation, understanding Chapters 4-22 to be a prophetic account of actual future events, focussed on the end of this age.

[sheep wrecked]

(04-21-2009 02:06 PM)Anddra Wrote:  Rose, your comments suggest that you hold a Preterist view. If this is not the case, then the following comments will simply serve to show why such a view does not accord with scripture.

Just a quick comment for clarification. What Rose has posted is not "preterism". I don't think we want to "go there" in this thread

If you would like to start a new thread for Preterism as a topic for discussion, please do

[Anddra]

(04-21-2009 03:18 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote:  Just a quick comment for clarification. What Rose has posted is not "preterism". I don't think we want to "go there" in this thread. If you would like to start a new thread for Preterism as a topic for discussion, please do

Thanks for the clarification, Sheep.

[Rose of Shushan]

Quote:The prophecy of Zechariah 14 was not of the destruction of the Temple in 70AD. Zechariah was speaking of the battle in Megiddo, not the events of 70AD.

There is no mention in 70 AD of this event happening:
Zechariah 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.


The consuming of flesh, eyes and tongues while one was standing on one's feet never happened in 70AD. Those who destroyed the Temple lived to fight another day. Do a study of the history of the ones who headed this destruction and you will find that they did not die while standing on their feet and their tongues, eyes and flesh was eaten away.

The argument that the events of 70AD were the fulfilment of Zechariah's prophecy are shot down in light of what Zechariah said would happen.

As I mentioned previously I believe there are spiritual dimensions to these prophecies.Since the physical in the Sinai covenant held the mysteries of the spiritual,I do believe the verse you mentioned could refer to what eventually happens after death.From Scripture we know hell is a hot place,hot enough to consume the flesh off you and to shrivel up your tongue.

Luk 16:23 And in hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and seeing Abraham far off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Jesus repeatedly warned the people of hell, being more concerned with the eternal state of their souls than for their physical "tents".
The verse speaks about the nations coming against Jerusalem, however Isaiah does too also in his later chapters referring to Zion. Its very interesting when you look at how Jerusalem is written of in the chapters following the appearing of the Suffering servant and most especially after Isaiah 53.The tone changes from Judgement to promises of blessing for the city and Zion.

As to the battle of Megiddo Zechariah says this

Zec 12:11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddo.

I do not subscribe to the battle of Armageddon being literal but merely a spiritual battle for our souls or perhaps reflecting the scene occurring at Judgement Day. Zechariah compares the mourning of that day to be similar to the mourning at Megiddo when I think it was King Josiah that died.The verse comes straight after it is speaking of Christ being mourned for and as I mentioned earlier the Gospel writer John also links that verse to the crucifixion.

Lastly I just want to comment that just because an event is not mentioned in Scripture it doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. Scripture is not an exhaustive historical record of all that happened since Creation.
Take for example the earthquake in the days of King Uzziah according to Amos

Amo 1:1 The words of Amos, who was among the herdsmen of Tekoa, which he saw concerning Israel in the days of Uzziah king of Judah, and in the days of Jeroboam the son of Joash king of Israel, two years before the earthquake.

There is no record of it either in the records of Kings,chronicles or in any other scripture.It is only the prophet Zechariah who then refers to it and in retrospect again

Zec 14:5 And you shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, you shall flee, like as you fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with him.

Yet theres no other record of the earthquake neither by Isaiah or any of his contemporaries. So just because Scripture doesn’t mention events does not mean they didn’t take place.

[bromiller]

I'm really sorry bromiller but, we deleted your post because it was pretty much

However, in the post below, I would like to address some other reasons, as discussed by the admins.

Vic (and Sheep Wrecked and Rose)

[Vic]

Hi bromiller.
As admins we have discussed your post, and have received complaints concerning some statements which appear anti-semitic. That may not be your intent. I hope it isn't as do the other admins. There are members on this forum who are of Jewish descent, and I think that perhaps you need to rethink what you are saying and how you are saying it and why.

There are many Jewish people who read my website and this forum, and I have always made if very clear of the distinction between Judaism and Christian beliefs. Not everything under the banner of Christian is of Christ. As believers we are not to cause offence, and that means respecting others as people, and also as having made choices different than ours. That doesn't mean we agree or view those choices in less than a biblical analysis. But it does mean, we are to give none offence deliberately.

1 Corinthians 10:31-33 Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God. 32. Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God: 33. Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved.

When referencing the Talmud and Kabbalah, it must be kept in mind that these are the holy books of another belief system. They are not for us, and they do denigrate the name and person of Jesus. That is a known fact and one that is not disputed by those in Judaism. Kabbalah was known as gnostic and mysticism which is the occult. We evaluate them only from the perspective as being against what we believe, and biblically. Not to trash them, but to understand why we cannot use them.

I see by your posts that you are heavily focused on particular research, and what some would call conspiracy theorists. We know there are conspiracies--which is merely a planned deception, right from the book Genesis on. However, as those who love Jesus Christ, it is a mistake in my opinion, to focus too heavily on the what may be done behind closed doors, versus what is being done and can be proven by facts and Scripture.

Next, I think the focus on the pope and such, is just one of many avenues that is being used to cause individuals to accept other than biblical beliefs and leadership, and to reject Jesus Christ. Catholicism is not the only other religion. There are many that seek to satisfy the 'all roads lead to God" concept. The only belief not accepted in the unity in diversity is those who love the Lord Jesus Christ and hold the Scriptures as Truth. Many people have guessed many anti-christs over the years. But in the end, all have been proven wrong. That doesn't mean there aren't many claiming to be Christ, and the pope does stand out in that category. But he is not the only one.

1 John 2:15-18 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. 17. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever. 18. Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

There can be too much attention to the detail of man's perception of what the end times and the anti-christ will be. It is good to be aware of what is happening in the world, but we have to strive for balance. The most important thing is sharing the Gospel and loving our neighbor as Christ taught us. The conspiracy theories will always be there, many books will be written that detract people from what God has purposed us to do. To spend inordinate time in pursuing the "sensational" we can weigh ourselves down with things that will impede our race towards Christ. Many things merely agitate and do nothing to turn someone to Christ.

As Christians, we know that anyone who does not know Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord can and will be used to bring in and follow the antichrist. Regardless of who that is. While we need to warn of deceptions, in doing that, we want to make sure we are not being a stumblingblock that keeps people from coming to Christ.

2 Timothy 2:24-26 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 25. In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26. And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

We are also warned and with that, the knowledge there is not just one deceiver, but many..

2 Timothy 3:1-5 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. 2. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3. Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 4. Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; 5. Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

2Ti 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. 13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

Our whole purpose is to be sharing Christ with others, of all heritage.

The issue of Zionism is being misused by many, and many under the guise of Christian are uniting with Jewish people, but not to ever share Christ. Rather, in their minds, it is so they can usher in the fulfillment of prophecy, or so they think. And basically, the attitude becomes, "too bad for those Jews.". I can't think of anything right now that is more hateful and unloving and uncaring than to think in those terms.

You mentioned that Jews are not really of any Jewish descent, and that is not right. And you need to understand it is not only a false premise, but it is antisemitic, whether you intend it or not. The khazar issue has been mentioned to me before in emails and the rhetoric and disdain behind those emails has been less than loving. There are Jews who can trace their lineage for many years.

The thing is, heritage and race do not save us. Jesus Christ does. And that should be the concern, not whether someone has a particular heritage or not.

1Ti 1:4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.

Ephesians 2:13-22 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15. Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16. And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17. And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

18. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20. And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21. In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22. In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Christians are to have one mind and that is to be focused on the things of Christ.

Heb 13:14 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.

Philippians 3:20-21 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: 21. Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Galatians 3:26-29 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

[Vic]

Actually, your posts are on moderation, not deleted, as yet, bromiller.

And that is the perogative of the admins of this board and not to be argued with, re the Forum Rules.

http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/forumdisplay.php?fid=28

Until we decide how and if we should post them and or respond. Your statements are way off base.

But think what you wish.

****Friday April 24,****

After much consideration and discussion with the admins, we decided to not only not post the two posts held in moderation, but deleted them and all your posts. These posts violated not only the registration agreement, which you agreed to, but also the Forum Rules, which are easily noticed and you were directed to.

You obviously came with an agenda and it appears you made no attempt to inform yourself of those things, but also didn't bother to read the forum or my website. Your ignorance of these things showed completely in your posts as well as your attack on me.

We may at some point deal with the anti-semitism and the distortion of the Scriptures which you presented, but if we do, it will be discussed fully from the Scriptures and with a true Christian attitude, which means loving others and caring about them. And sharing Jesus Christ with them regardless of who they are, their "heritage", or background.

You have been permanently banned. Do not attempt to go around the ban, in any way, or I will personally contact your server, as stated in the Rules. There are many websites on the internet which will welcome your rhetoric. This is not one of them.

Maybe someday God will open your understanding and you will see why what you posted is against the Scriptures and Christ.

1 John 4:10-12 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11. Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another. 12. No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

Matthew 5:43-48 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45. That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 46. For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47. And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? 48. Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

To our members and guests, Sorry for the Interruption folks, but now,

[Vic]

I don't normally discuss this issue.

When I first got on the internet I was astounded at all the discussions --and heated discussions--on this issue. At that time, about 11 yrs ago, I wrote an article called The Father Knows http://www.seekgod.ca/father.htm

I also addressed date setting a few years ago in Date Setting Hypocrisy > http://www.seekgod.ca/raptured.htm
It was in response to some who were continually date setting various events and shown wrong and continued on their date setting way. The article wasn't about the issue of the rapture specifically, but date setting.

Over the years, for some who argue for the pre-trib rapture, I have seen where there is an almost stated belief that it is a salvation issue and a fundamental doctrine.

What do you think? Is it a salvation issue or fundamental belief issue or...?