Can we lose Salvation?

[Liberated by Faith]

If once saved, always saved is not true, then the Lord Jesus Christ that I serve is a liar and His promise is not to be trusted.

John 10:27-28 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Clearly Jesus said His sheep (the saved) will never perish. If they can lose their salvation, they will perish. His sheep hear Him and they follow Him. Those who fall away, may have been disciples (followers) of Jesus, but were not His sheep or no doubt they would have continued following Him.

[sheep wrecked]

(05-13-2009 01:48 PM)Liberated by Faith Wrote:  If once saved, always saved is not true, then the Lord Jesus Christ that I serve is a liar and His promise is not to be trusted.

John 10:27-28 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Clearly Jesus said His sheep (the saved) will never perish. If they can lose their salvation, they will perish. His sheep hear Him and they follow Him. Those who fall away, may have been disciples (followers) of Jesus, but were not His sheep or no doubt they would have continued following Him.

I am curious what your thoughts are on the John 15 passage that I quoted.




Joh 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the farmer.
Joh 15:2 Every branch in me that bears not fruit he takes away: and every branch that bears fruit, he purges it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
Joh 15:3 Now you are clean through the word which I have spoken to you.
Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can you, except you abide in me.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, you are the branches: He that stays in me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit: for without me you can do nothing.
Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
Joh 15:7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, you shall ask what you will, and it shall be done to you.
Joh 15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that you bear much fruit; so shall you be my disciples.

[Liberated by Faith]

John 15:1-8 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

Notice verse two says that Every branch that is in me that beareth not fruit, He taketh away. These branches are not saved. They follow Christ, but they are not His. The branches that abide in Him bear fruit. To abide in Christ is to, while following Him, allow Him to nourish you so that you can be fruitful. A branch that is not being fed by a vine will die out and have to be pruned from the vine.

Look at the Sermon on the Mount. Many followed Jesus because of His teachings, His miracles, and His provision. Yet, when He caused them to see what it really meant to associated with Him, to be in fellowship with Him, to live the life that He would have them live, many went away and followed Him no more. (John 6:66)

A true branch will not just follow, but will walk the walk and talk the talk. He will live for Christ and the evidence that He abides in Christ will be that Christ's life will flow through Him.

[sheep wrecked]

(05-13-2009 03:37 PM)Liberated by Faith Wrote:  John 15:1-8 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

Notice verse two says that Every branch that is in me that beareth not fruit, He taketh away. These branches are not saved. They follow Christ, but they are not His. The branches that abide in Him bear fruit. To abide in Christ is to, while following Him, allow Him to nourish you so that you can be fruitful. A branch that is not being fed by a vine will die out and have to be pruned from the vine.

Look at the Sermon on the Mount. Many followed Jesus because of His teachings, His miracles, and His provision. Yet, when He caused them to see what it really meant to associated with Him, to be in fellowship with Him, to live the life that He would have them live, many went away and followed Him no more. (John 6:66)

A true branch will not just follow, but will walk the walk and talk the talk. He will live for Christ and the evidence that He abides in Christ will be that Christ's life will flow through Him.

If one looks at the text, it says the branches are "in Christ".

"Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away."

A branch that is cut off was in the Vine to begin with, else how could it be cut off?

[Liberated by Faith]

Matthew 7 declares that the tree is known by its fruit. One who is of Christ will bear fruit that shows evidence of Christ in that one.

That said, I am not sure that the one who Christ speaks of as 'in me that beareth not fruit He taketh away' is speaking of one who is saved. If there is no fruit to show that one is of Christ, then that one is removed. One who is actually attached to the vine (Christ) will be nourished by the vine and will indeed show this.

I believe the one that does not bear fruit mentioned in John 15 is one who has companied with the Body of Christ and yet is not an actual member. A branch that is attached to a vine has to be cut in order to be taken away. The branch spoken of in John 15 is not attached to the vine and is not dependent upon the life that the vine gives and so, is taken away.

[finney]

I'm gonna cut and paste your post and see what I can do to answer your questions or objections (as the case may be). Do you have any certain priority or is one just as good as any other?

I'm not trying to win an argument. My desire for you and any others that think you have to do this or that or not do something or the other to maintain everlasting life is that you would be set loose from that. You are as safe in Christ now (if you're in Christ, of course) as you will be in Heaven after eleventy bazillion ages have come and gone and you are so 'cause of what he did, not what you're doing.

To establish a position: II Tim. 2:15 says that we're to study and rightly divide the word. It doesn't say that in the NIV or the New King James or the NASB or the CEV or the NLT or the ESV or the NJB or GNFMM or the New World Translation and do you want me to go on? The point here is that if you're reading something other than the AV and I start talking about "rightly dividing the word" you're not gonna have any idea what I'm talkin' about; the concept will never have been generated. Just so you know what I'm using as a source material. Oh and by the way.. if you're using those versions above or the nearly 90 English versions remaining (I only mentioned nine and the AV) then you're going to keep running up against "being saved" where the AV usually says "are saved" or just "saved." They're not interchangeable and can cause you to think you're still "being saved" instead of "are saved."

Don't forget about the priority question and while I'm doing this (which will take some time no matter which part I choose to answer first) would you please point to one verse where it states clearly that someone can lose their salvation or that they can choose to be un-born again or such like? Something that stands out clearly and says "A saved person can be un-saved and go to the lake of fire?" Thanks and while you're doing that I'll get started answering as best I can the objections raised.

As to John 15: Who bears the fruit in a Chrsitian's life? For a Christian it's the fruit of the... wait a minute... let's see, it's the fruit of... The fruit of the ... It's right on the tip of my tongue. Was Jesus addressing Israel or the church? Was he preaching the gospel of the Kingdom or the gospel of Grace? Do you know the difference? That'd be a good place to start. What's the difference 'tween the gospel of the Kingdom and the gospel of Jesus Christ?

me

[LindaR]

finney Wrote:As to John 15: Who bears the fruit in a Chrsitian's life? For a Christian it's the fruit of the... wait a minute... let's see, it's the fruit of... The fruit of the ... It's right on the tip of my tongue. Was Jesus addressing Israel or the church? Was he preaching the gospel of the Kingdom or the gospel of Grace? Do you know the difference? That'd be a good place to start. What's the difference 'tween the gospel of the Kingdom and the gospel of Jesus Christ?

There is no difference because there is only ONE gospel. It began to be spoken by the Lord:

How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; (Hebrews 2:3)

It was commissioned to His followers and it unifies the entire New Testament in its teaching.

And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. (Mark 16:15)

The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the glad tidings that Jesus Christ died for man's sins, that He was buried, and that He rose again from the dead to be the Savior of those who receive Him (1 Co. 15:1-11). It is the only Gospel that was preached by Jesus Christ, Peter, Paul and all the other apostles. It is the only Gospel which saves.

[Strefanash]

(05-13-2009 03:01 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote:  I am curious what your thoughts are on the John 15 passage that I quoted.

I agree with you, sheepwrecked, it seems.

Why would he tell christians to abide in Him if by mere virtue of being born again we already did? I hold that abiding in christ is not the same as merely being a born again believer. If we do not abide eventually we backslide beyond his reach when in our sin we are so hardened that we refuse to hear his spirit prompting us. And if christians only ever heard and obeyed His voice why bother with the exhortation "today if you hear not His voice harden not your heart" to those who retort that this is the epistle to the Hebrews I wil cite Paul to others: "quench not the Spirit".

John chap 15 is here a clear reminder of the peril of falling away. We might hold to sound doctrine and be in good standing withour church, we may efven be missionaries, but if we have ceased our relationship with teh living Person who is Jesus Christ we have fallen away and if this fallenness away is so advanced that the person cannot and will not hear the Holy Spirit then he is lost to perdition for he has blasphemed the Spirit.

The remedy is not frantic legalism but abiding with him, ie staying with him, and this in personal relationship.

If we hood false defionitions of what christians are and what christians do we come to the ludicrous position that in his letters St Paul only every praiuseed the christians in the church he was writing to and all his criticisms were to the non christians in these churches, so the man having sex with his step mother was not a christian, nor those wjo got drunk in communion, etc etc etc.

This is clearly ridiculous.

Another passage: If by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the flesh you will live.

and if we dont? clearly we will die. this is not a legalistic burden, it is to stay with him and continue in the relationship whereby His Holy Spirit leads us to repentance as a free gift. it is a synonym for John 15.

To say that denying once saved always saved is to turn salvation into works is to totally misunderstand salvation and grace. THus it is a straw man. Grace is a process whereby God as a process over years acts in our lives. If we stop this process and refuse his divine persuasion whereby his goodness leads us to repentance we will fall finally to loss and be condemned and damned

[sheep wrecked]

(05-14-2009 04:57 AM)Strefanash Wrote:  I agree with you, sheepwrecked, it seems.

Why would he tell christians to abide in Him if by mere virtue of being born again we already did? I hold that abiding in christ is not the same as merely being a born again believer. If we do not abide eventually we backslide beyond his reach when in our sin we are so hardened that we refuse to hear his spirit prompting us. And if christians only ever heard and obeyed His voice why bother with the exhortation "today if you hear not His voice harden not your heart" to those who retort that this is the epistle to the Hebrews I wil cite Paul to others: "quench not the Spirit".

John chap 15 is here a clear reminder of the peril of falling away. We might hold to sound doctrine and be in good standing withour church, we may efven be missionaries, but if we have ceased our relationship with teh living Person who is Jesus Christ we have fallen away and if this fallenness away is so advanced that the person cannot and will not hear the Holy Spirit then he is lost to perdition for he has blasphemed the Spirit.

The remedy is not frantic legalism but abiding with him, ie staying with him, and this in personal relationship.

If we hood false defionitions of what christians are and what christians do we come to the ludicrous position that in his letters St Paul only every praiuseed the christians in the church he was writing to and all his criticisms were to the non christians in these churches, so the man having sex with his step mother was not a christian, nor those wjo got drunk in communion, etc etc etc.

This is clearly ridiculous.

Another passage: If by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the flesh you will live.

and if we dont? clearly we will die. this is not a legalistic burden, it is to stay with him and continue in the relationship whereby His Holy Spirit leads us to repentance as a free gift. it is a synonym for John 15.

To say that denying once saved always saved is to turn salvation into works is to totally misunderstand salvation and grace. THus it is a straw man. Grace is a process whereby God as a process over years acts in our lives. If we stop this process and refuse his divine persuasion whereby his goodness leads us to repentance we will fall finally to loss and be condemned and damned

I would agree that the NT clearly shows that one must make a choice to stay devoted to the Lord. There are so many warnings in all the epistles that we can easily fall away if we don't continue seeking the Lord with all our hearts. We are human, the flesh is constantly at war with our hearts. Loving God is no different than loving a person in your life. It takes work, devotion, commitment, and relationship - without which, love will die.

Your post reminds me of the Parable of the Sower, which I think clearly points out those who accept Christ, but then fall away. Jesus also stated that believers would fall away from the faith.

Mar 4:3 Listen; Behold, there went out a sower to sow:
Mar 4:4 And it came to pass, as he sowed, some fell by the way side, and the fowls of the air came and devoured it up.
Mar 4:5 And some fell on stony ground, where it had not much earth; and immediately it sprang up, because it had no depth of earth:
Mar 4:6 But when the sun was up, it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away.
Mar 4:7 And some fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up, and choked it, and it yielded no fruit.
Mar 4:8 And other fell on good ground, and did yield fruit that sprang up and increased; and brought forth, some thirty, and some sixty, and some an hundred.
Mar 4:9 And he said to them, He that has ears to hear, let him hear.
Mar 4:10 And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable.
Mar 4:11 And he said to them, To you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but to them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
Mar 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
Mar 4:13 And he said to them, Know you not this parable? and how then will you know all parables?
Mar 4:14 The sower sows the word.
Mar 4:15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan comes immediately, and takes away the word that was sown in their hearts.
Mar 4:16 And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness;
Mar 4:17 And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution rises for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.
Mar 4:18 And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word,
Mar 4:19 And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful.
Mar 4:20 And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirty times, some sixty, and some an hundred.

Jesus gives us two examples of believers who accept the Word - the Gospel > Jesus is the Word. Both of these examples fall away from the faith, while the third continues in it and brings forth fruit. Exactly what Jesus pointed to in John 15 with the Vine teaching.


Luke defines it even more clearly:

Luk 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

[Strefanash]

Exactly!!!

The NT is full of warnings against the peril of falling away. which is expressed in many different ways. But a rigid reading of scripture which does not allow for such things as synonyms will often miss this.

And if christians are repeatedly warned about the danger of falling away then OSAS stands refuted. If falling away were not possible then warnings against it would be totally redundant

---

finney

Don't forget about the priority question and while I'm doing this (which will take some time no matter which part I choose to answer first) would you please point to one verse where it states clearly that someone can lose their salvation or that they can choose to be un-born again or such like?

Stref: Hebrews 6:4 as about as bald as you can possibly put it. Any arguments advanced as to deny the applicability of this passage ignores the plain meaning of it. I have already explained this. Partakers of the Spirit (as mentioned in the verse- look it up - ) can ONLY be born again persons, therefore born again persons can ultimately refuse the Lord and fall away to perdition.

Being born again ands abiding in christ are different things. One must be born again to abide in chrfist but if one refuses to abide in christ then one's being born again ultimately becomes as irrelevant as the Jews claim of being right with God by being sons of Abraham