Threaded Mode | Linear Mode

~~LindaR~~ · 04-15-2009, 07:38 PM

Question: Was Jesus Christ "eternally" the Son of God before the foundation of the world or did He "become" the Son at His incarnation?

Briefly, the doctrine of the Eternal Sonship of Christ is this:

Quote:The doctrine of eternal Sonship declares that the Second Person of the triune Godhead has eternally existed as the Son. His Sonship had no beginning. There was never a time when He was not the Son of God. There has always been a Father/Son relationship in the Godhead. Sonship is not merely a title or role or function that Christ assumed at some point in history, but it involves the essential identity of the Second Person of the Godhead. He is and has always been the true, proper, actual Son of God.

Those who deny eternal Sonship teach that Christ became the Son at some point in history—at His incarnation, at His baptism, at His resurrection or at His exaltation. Most who deny eternal Sonship say that He became the Son at His birth (at the incarnation), and that prior to Bethlehem He was not the Son of God. They do not deny His deity or His eternality, but they deny His eternal Sonship. Some teach that the term “Son of God” means “subservient to God, less than God, inferior to God.” They believe that Christ's Sonship is external, extrinsic, and extraneous to the real, true, proper, and essential essence of who Jesus Christ really is. Thus they teach that Sonship was merely a role or a title or a function that Christ assumed at the incarnation. They also teach that the Father became the Father at the time of the incarnation.

Those who teach this view would include Ralph Wardlaw, Adam Clarke, Albert Barnes, Jimmy Swaggart, Finis J. Dake (Dake's Annotated Reference Bible), Walter Martin (author of Kingdom of the Cults). Popular Bible teacher John MacArthur, Jr. for many years denied the doctrine of the eternal Sonship of Christ, but he has changed his position and now embraces this doctrine.
(from Middletown Bible Church.org)

The Scripture says in Hebrews 13:8:

Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. (Hebrews 13:8)

I think just that one verse pretty much speaks for the eternal Sonship of Christ.

Any thoughts?

sheep wrecked · (This post was last modified: 04-15-2009 09:29 PM by sheep wrecked.)

(04-15-2009 07:38 PM)LindaR Wrote: Question: Was Jesus Christ "eternally" the Son of God before the foundation of the world or did He "become" the Son at His incarnation?

Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. (Hebrews 13:8)

I think just that one verse pretty much speaks for the eternal Sonship of Christ.

Any thoughts?

This teaching came from the Roman Catholic Church and is a major doctrine in that venue. Unfortunately, it's been picked up by other christian denominations.

Jesus is eternal, He is God manifested in the flesh. I believe the Bible is clear that His Sonship came with His conception and birth. From that point on, He is eternally the Son of God, but I don't believe Scripture shows that He was considered a Son until He became flesh. Here are some Scriptures to show this:

Jesus was begotten on a certain day. Psalms 2 prophecies this, the NT shows how it was fulfilled:

John 1:18 No man has seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he has declared him.

John 3:18 He that believes on him is not condemned: but he that believes not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Acts 13:33 God has fulfilled the same to us their children, in that he has raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, You are my Son, this day have I begotten you.

Psa 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD has said to me, You are my Son; this day have I begotten you.

Heb 1:5 For to which of the angels said he at any time, You are my Son, this day have I begotten you? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? And again, when he brings in the first-begotten into the world, he said, And let all the angels of God worship him.

Heb 5:5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said to him, You are my Son, to day have I begotten you.

1John 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

I believe that Heb 13:8 is referring to His Deity, not an eternal Sonship. Hope that helps! Wave

~~Liberated by Faith~~ · 04-15-2009, 11:23 PM

Quote:John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

God sent His Son into the world. Jesus did not become God's Son upon entering the world, but God sent His Son. He was the Son of God in Heaven with God prior to being sent into the world.

~~LindaR~~ · 04-15-2009, 11:51 PM

Next question...if the Sonship of Jesus "began" at His conception, how does one explain the Triunity of God BEFORE His conception? How do you explain Genesis 1:26:

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. (Genesis 1:26)

What about the passages which speak of the Father SENDING the Son, which imply that Christ existed as the Son prior to His mission:

Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. (1 John 4:10)

And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. (1 John 4:14)

But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, (Galatians 4:4)

Christ had a relationship to the Father prior to the incarnation:

I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father. (John 16:28)

There was a Father/Son relationship in the Godhead even before the creation of the world:

And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. (John 17:5)

Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. (John 17:24)

The One who existed as the Son of God became the Son of David at the time of the incarnation.

Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: (Romans 1:3-4)

The incarnation is when God became a man, it is not when God became the Son. He was God's Son from all eternity.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (John 1:1)

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. (John 1:14)

sheep wrecked · 04-16-2009, 01:17 PM

(04-15-2009 11:51 PM)LindaR Wrote: Next question...if the Sonship of Jesus "began" at His conception, how does one explain the Triunity of God BEFORE His conception? How do you explain Genesis 1:26:

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. (Genesis 1:26)

What about the passages which speak of the Father SENDING the Son, which imply that Christ existed as the Son prior to His mission:

Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. (1 John 4:10)

And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. (1 John 4:14)

But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, (Galatians 4:4)

Christ had a relationship to the Father prior to the incarnation:

I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father. (John 16:28)

There was a Father/Son relationship in the Godhead even before the creation of the world:

And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. (John 17:5)

Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. (John 17:24)

The One who existed as the Son of God became the Son of David at the time of the incarnation.

Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: (Romans 1:3-4)

The incarnation is when God became a man, it is not when God became the Son. He was God's Son from all eternity.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (John 1:1)

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. (John 1:14)

I think there is a misconception of Christ's role before He became flesh. He and the Father have always, eternally been ONE. That He is God and existed infinitely before His birth on earth and after, it a separate issue than Sonship. The verses you have quoted prove that He is God, but His conception/birth was the day that God "begat" His Son - it was to be for the purpose of crucifixion as the Propitiation for sin for all time. At least that is how I see it.

~~Liberated by Faith~~ · 04-16-2009, 01:50 PM

(04-16-2009 01:17 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote:
(04-15-2009 11:51 PM)LindaR Wrote: Next question...if the Sonship of Jesus "began" at His conception, how does one explain the Triunity of God BEFORE His conception? How do you explain Genesis 1:26:

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. (Genesis 1:26)

What about the passages which speak of the Father SENDING the Son, which imply that Christ existed as the Son prior to His mission:

Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. (1 John 4:10)

And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. (1 John 4:14)

But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, (Galatians 4:4)

Christ had a relationship to the Father prior to the incarnation:

I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father. (John 16:28)

There was a Father/Son relationship in the Godhead even before the creation of the world:

And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. (John 17:5)

Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. (John 17:24)

The One who existed as the Son of God became the Son of David at the time of the incarnation.

Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: (Romans 1:3-4)

The incarnation is when God became a man, it is not when God became the Son. He was God's Son from all eternity.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (John 1:1)

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. (John 1:14)

I think there is a misconception of Christ's role before He became flesh. He and the Father have always, eternally been ONE. That He is God and existed infinitely before His birth on earth and after, it a separate issue than Sonship. The verses you have quoted prove that He is God, but His conception/birth was the day that God "begat" His Son - it was to be for the purpose of crucifixion as the Propitiation for sin for all time. At least that is how I see it.

Jesus is the only begotten of the Father. But, Scripture is clear that God sent His Son... He gave a child.

Quote:Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

He was the Son of God even prior to His birth on earth. Even Solomon knew this truth...

Quote:Proverbs 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?

The Sonship was taught hundreds of years prior to the incarnation.

***Vic*** · 04-18-2009, 04:18 PM

I had never heard of that phrase before the other day and I have been a Christian a long time.

I am wondering if there is information when this became a label so to speak and when it was first put out as a particular and necessary doctrine.

Christ is eternal, the only begotten Son--to me has always meant when He was conceived making Him to be fully man and fully God at that time, and that was when the purpose of Him made manifest took place.

Was He fully man and fully God with a human nature that could be tempted to sin, prior to when He was conceived, to fulfill prophecy and so on ....is that what is being stated? It is unclear to me, what all this entails. Thinking2

~~LindaR~~ · (This post was last modified: 08-17-2009 03:00 PM by Vic.)

For more information on the Doctrine of the Eternal Sonship of Christ read the article on Middletown Bible Church's site called "The Importance of the Doctrine of Eternal Sonship: Why Does It Matter?" Here's the link

*******
Hope the ban bot don't git me!

Wow...that was cool...took longer to post with the link...but I'm still here!

coolsign

***Vic*** · 04-21-2009, 10:56 AM

I did some research, but find that most writers concerning this topic..well, one needs to carry a dictionary to actually read what a lot are talking about. And to me, it just isn't that difficult if we abide the Word of God.

I absolutely and totally believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God; He is God manifest in the flesh; and all of those things that Scripture tell us, and that He and the Father are One, and He has all the attributes of the Father, and so on.

When I get bogged down is when I cannot answer specific questions by the Scriptures. We shouldn't need a thesis that can hardly be understood in order to know what is in the Scriptures. That makes it elitist and bound to certain ones to understand or teach us. I believe that is a false premise.

1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

That said, I also think we can discuss and learn from other. And in trying to wrap my brain around this concept, I am stuck. When I look to prove something, it's in the Scriptures. What I asked before:

Christ is eternal, the only begotten Son--to me has always meant when He was conceived making Him to be fully man and fully God at that time, and that was when the purpose of Him made manifest took place.

Was He fully man and fully God with a human nature that could be tempted to sin, prior to when He was conceived, to fulfill prophecy and so on ....is that what is being stated? In reference to eternal Sonship, because to me that is what is being stated. That His becoming fully God and Fully Man, was already bound tand part of His Sonship for all eternity.

The very specific statement, "this day I have begotten you" to me is in reference to a specific time when He was conceived and made flesh. I am having a difficult time thinking that He was fully God and fully Man, with a human nature, before the incarnation.

I look to the Scriptures to prove or disprove what I am thinking and verses should tell us that His name should also come up as Eternal Son, simply because of what this topic is suggesting, and it should be in the Scriptures as that, or Everlasting Son. However, what I see is this:

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Isa 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Every reference to eternal son or everlasting son---there is no phrase like that in the Scriptures. And that bothers me.

This is what does come up in a search for these phrases: everlasting son

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Joh 6:27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

eternal son>
**only verse 11 comes up , but I added 10:

1Jn 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
1Jn 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

1Jn 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

1Jn 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

That is where I am at. Thinking2

Strefanash · (This post was last modified: 05-14-2009 04:59 PM by Strefanash.)

The phrase ternal son may not appear in the Bible, but neither does the term trinity, and we would all stand condemned for denying the Trinity.

To say Jesus was God before the Incarnation but not the Son before it is to separate His Sonship from His divinity. This seems absurd. It also seems that to deny the sonship is to undercut the Divinity. John Chap1, in the beginning was the word . . and the word became flesh seems to me to establish that it was the Son of God who created the world

Word are slippery and allow for many aspects and shades of meaning. "this day I have begotten you" need not imply that Christ became the Son the day he was incarnated, And given that reality is riddled with paradox (a human divine messiah, free will/predestination, A God of love/ wrath, and a triune being who is One God) I would venture that this verse does not establish that there was a time when either ther son was not or the second person was not the son.

QUESTION: IF there was a time when the second person was not the Son what was it about the second person which distinguished him from the rest of the Trinity

But these questionings make me uneasy. It is the Holy and Terrible we speak of, not a specimen on a slide. It troubles me that we are daring to tamper with the nature of the Godhead: to me something utterly presumptuous. I would not more dare to figure out the Sacred Holy and Terrible Mystery of th eGoldhead than I would uncover my earthly father's nakedness.

the Catholic Church is not the fount of all evil. That a doctrine comes from them does not make it false lest we reject the Trinity, a doctrine they themselves coined. Indeed to declare a doctrine false because of its source is a genetic fallacy. A doctrine is false by its evidence and meaning. Besides even the cults and pagans have truths in their doctrines, the bait on the hook, but still truths.

I certainly cant definitively answer the question here, but I am bothered by the mindset that would even raise it. We are still too much like Greeks, craving to know it all rather than simply believe enough to proceed with

(04-21-2009 10:56 AM)Vic Wrote: Every reference to eternal son or everlasting son---there is no phrase like that in the Scriptures. And that bothers me.

[color=#1E90FF]
That is where I am at.

What about synonyms? After all the word Trinity does not appear in a Scripture, being a latinism, and neither does Rapture, another latinism.

"Before Abraham was I AM," he said. He claimed eternal pre exisience. But was not the Son?

He did not have a human nature before the incarnation? and how do you define human nature?

These are questions we can only answer if we understand the very mystery of the Incarnation. Something none can do

But again, are you not uneasy pondering what may be the irrelevant? Dont the questions themselves stem from a Western rationalist mindset rather than from faith? I can be sure that while the Church Councils wrangled over all manner of minutiae the Apostles never considered them, what the knew from experience and scripture was enough.

As I said I tend to the eternal sonship but if it is not baldly stated and it is about the mystery of the Incarnation and the Trinity then the answer is beyond our ken