Pastor Or Reverend???

[heb13-13]

I have seen this "inheritance" mindset, also and how churches (non-denominational in particular) are chartered within a family and passed down to family members.

I would say that just about everything that religious man can think up has taken place in the so-called Church today when it comes to nickels, noses and numbers.

Once thing that we should always bear in mind is that we are living in the Great Apostasy of the Church. Today we are witnessing a Christianity without Christ. A Great Falling Away is taking place. People might think that a Great Falling Away means that the churches will empty. On the contrary, they will be full, but there is no Christ, because the "Church" has divorced (fallen away from) Jesus Christ.

I think one of the first things people need to realize in order to get free from Apostate Christendom, is that they should take the words of Jesus Christ and the Apostles very, very seriously. Yes, read your Bibles and OBEY IT without regard for what man thinks!!

If you take the Word of God seriously, it will separate you from all that is not of God because you will SEE clearly. It will also separate out the idols in your heart that has kept you (speaking generically, here), in the Apostate Church. You will have some suffering, but then after you have suffered a little while you will have peace and God's spiritual blessings.

Those who have Apostatized from the faith ONCE delivered unto the saints (Jude 3) in these Last Days, are listening to the serpent (Devil) just like Adam and Eve did; And one of the chief strategies of the Enemy of God is to challenge the Words of God. His wisdom and instruction and commands to us.

Just like Adam and Eve, they refuse to SIMPLY OBEY the things which Jesus says. Instead they make excuses. Religious EXCUSES are very subtle and seem full of wisdom and deep thought and consideration for others but in the end they are just a form of "man-made wisdom" and "interpretations", whose sole purpose is to obscure the simplicity that is in Christ.

Instead of obeying in simple childlike trust; they EXPLAIN "what Jesus really meant".

When they are done "explaining", SIMPLE OBEDIENCE, is not necessary. They misrepresent Jesus Christ by putting words into His mouth that He NEVER said, and by "explaining" His teachings so that they actually CONTRADICT what He said.

They believe in and they present to others ANOTHER JESUS, and they live and teach a CHRISTIANITY WITHOUT CHRIST.

The Jesus of the Bible (KJV), the original, historic Jesus said things that were offensive to the "Religious" community. So they, then create their own "JESUS" that is custom built and won't contradict their "doctrines" that they are teaching to justify the way they conduct their lives.

If you then come along and tell them that they are bound to OBEY the teachings of Jesus Christ in simplicity, they will tell you to "MOVE ASIDE, YOU'RE STANDING IN MY WAY".

And I wasn't the first one to say it. The Holy Spirit was.

Isa 30:8 Now go, write it before them in a table, and note it in a book, that it may be for the time to come for ever and ever:

Isa 30:9 That this is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not hear the law of the LORD:

Isa 30:10 Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits:

Isa 30:11 GET YOU OUT OF THE WAY, TURN ASIDE OUT OF THE PATH, cause the Holy One of Israel to cease from before us.

[sheep wrecked]

[Strefanash]

QUOTE:
I think one of the first things people need to realize in order to get free from Apostate Christendom, is that they should take the words of Jesus Christ and the Apostles very, very seriously. Yes, read your Bibles and OBEY IT without regard for what man thinks

Stref: and you think your efforts constitute obedience to the Word of God. How hard have you tried to obey, and what do you do with contrarty impulsers within you, regardles of what other people think? Consider carefully, for is you repress them, as is the standard, you are still walking in the flesh and living by the will of the flesh.

Pharisaism was very serious about obedience and the word of God, but it too, stemming from the will of the flesh, was godless religion. The very word pharisee comes from an old persian word meaning separate. so they too were concerned about being separate.

So become zealous about separation and you are more likely to become a pharisee. amd complicagte your burden of sin. Take it from someone who has been there

As for the word separating us, the letter kills. it also exposes my utterly contrary attitudes to holy separation. it does not separate me, and all my efforts might do is make me a religous fanatic so hardened to the gentle quiet voice which says "REST IN ME" that we are in dire, dire danger of an even worse form of apostasy than what you oppose

you are perfect? But he said BE YE PERFECT. HE also said LOVE ONE ANOTHER and if you cannot do that then your talk about obedience is so much heated flesh. HE did not say "try to love" he said to "love", all from a positionb of resting in the Lord. if we find it hard then we dont love eiuther himn or our neighbour, so of what value our efforts?

Oh, yes, his commands are not burdensome (though the Law be impossible), and his yoke is easy for his burden is light. and he offers rest to those who come to him.

Obeying the words in the book, and taking them VERY VERY SERIOUSLY is the starting point of every legalist. THis is where the Pharisees started. and you know something? You wil have to repent of this seriousness at some point, if the Spirit gets hold of you (if you have not driven him off in your legalistic zeal), for you will discover that our very righteousness is filthy rags and a sin to be repented of, and our seriousness will be seen to be will of the flesh, worthless, and indeed a hindrance as it was to the devout galatians

there is more than one form of godless religion, or christianity without christ, as you rifghtly callit. easy believism is clearly godless, but what i see you here advocating is very difficult believism.

THE WAY OUT of apostate religion is to cry to the Lord for mercy, to seek the free gift of repentance, for if we are in apostate religion we get out of it by admitting that we are apostate too.

you will try to say i will not hear the law of God. I have heard the thunder of Sinai so long it almost made me deaf to the whisper of the Spirit.

Take a closer look at the Law and see that your efforts will not be obedience to it, for just as the Law justified no one (the lesson of Romans) so the LAw sanctified no one, either (the lesson, though not in those exact words, of Galatians

---

Put it this way, Did i call my pastor "reverend" or "pastor"?

Neither. He was Murray, that was his name.

That is all

[heb13-13]

(07-20-2009 01:56 AM)Strefanash Wrote:  QUOTE:
I think one of the first things people need to realize in order to get free from Apostate Christendom, is that they should take the words of Jesus Christ and the Apostles very, very seriously. Yes, read your Bibles and OBEY IT without regard for what man thinks

Stref: and you think your efforts constitute obedience to the Word of God. How hard have you tried to obey, and what do you do with contrarty impulsers within you, regardles of what other people think? Consider carefully, for is you repress them, as is the standard, you are still walking in the flesh and living by the will of the flesh.

Pharisaism was very serious about obedience and the word of God, but it too, stemming from the will of the flesh, was godless religion. The very word pharisee comes from an old persian word meaning separate. so they too were concerned about being separate.

So become zealous about separation and you are more likely to become a pharisee. amd complicagte your burden of sin. Take it from someone who has been there

As for the word separating us, the letter kills. it also exposes my utterly contrary attitudes to holy separation. it does not separate me, and all my efforts might do is make me a religous fanatic so hardened to the gentle quiet voice which says "REST IN ME" that we are in dire, dire danger of an even worse form of apostasy than what you oppose

you are perfect? But he said BE YE PERFECT. HE also said LOVE ONE ANOTHER and if you cannot do that then your talk about obedience is so much heated flesh. HE did not say "try to love" he said to "love", all from a positionb of resting in the Lord. if we find it hard then we dont love eiuther himn or our neighbour, so of what value our efforts?

Oh, yes, his commands are not burdensome (though the Law be impossible), and his yoke is easy for his burden is light. and he offers rest to those who come to him.

Obeying the words in the book, and taking them VERY VERY SERIOUSLY is the starting point of every legalist. THis is where the Pharisees started. and you know something? You wil have to repent of this seriousness at some point, if the Spirit gets hold of you (if you have not driven him off in your legalistic zeal), for you will discover that our very righteousness is filthy rags and a sin to be repented of, and our seriousness will be seen to be will of the flesh, worthless, and indeed a hindrance as it was to the devout galatians

there is more than one form of godless religion, or christianity without christ, as you rifghtly callit. easy believism is clearly godless, but what i see you here advocating is very difficult believism.

THE WAY OUT of apostate religion is to cry to the Lord for mercy, to seek the free gift of repentance, for if we are in apostate religion we get out of it by admitting that we are apostate too.

you will try to say i will not hear the law of God. I have heard the thunder of Sinai so long it almost made me deaf to the whisper of the Spirit.

Take a closer look at the Law and see that your efforts will not be obedience to it, for just as the Law justified no one (the lesson of Romans) so the LAw sanctified no one, either (the lesson, though not in those exact words, of Galatians

---

Put it this way, Did i call my pastor "reverend" or "pastor"?

Neither. He was Murray, that was his name.

That is all

Stref,

Your posting taken by itself is true and if you take my post by itself, although true, I can see where you think it is unbalanced and weighted toward legality.

That is the trouble with not being able to have a conversation face to face. We are having a "conversation" in bits and pieces. for the benefit of those reading, then, yes, it is all about love. I am not advocating beginning in the Spirit and then continuing in the flesh. We know that is falling from GRACE. I gave up on my "EFFORTS" a long, long time ago.

If you read my other posts you will see that I do not propagate legalism.

Very much to the contrary, but I also know that we cannot use our Liberty in Christ as an excuse for "sin". And, thank God that there is abundant mercy and forgiveness in Jesus or we would have all been consumed a long time ago.

This original post was about calling someone "Pastor" or "Reverend". Personally, I also like to use a person's name. However, I don't judge someone that calls someone by a title. I just feel it is unhealthy for the person I am talking to lift him up on a pedestal and it is not healthy for me to put myself below someone. I prefer that we are all brothers in the Lord.

Christians today, want to hear about God's blessings and nothing at all about God's curses. They don't think that any of His curses apply to them. They stop up their ears to such talk and prefer rather to believe that all bad things that happen to them are from Satan. Well, that might be true, but God allowed it, didn't He. Christianity has gotten quite perverted and when you hold up God's Word and try to bring people back to His Word, you will be ridiculed as legalistic and even called a Pharisee. They will tell you that the NT is all about Grace and "you're preaching the Law". Well, I don't "preach" that you have to increase YOUR efforts to be in right standing with God. But I may talk about CONSEQUENCES of disobedience and rebellion.

Stref, the reason that I say what I say, is because I know "the goodness" and "severity" of God.

Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

I can admit that I have been judged and chastened by God in my life and it was always for rebellion and disobedience to Him and His Word. These are important things to tell new and old Christians, alike. God warns us this way throughout the Scriptures, OLD and New Testaments.

The things I say, I don't say lightly. I won't stop warning people and proclaiming what HE says (what I say is worthless) just because I am not PERFECT yet. If that were the case no one would speak the oracles of God.

1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Again, you bring up good things that we must all be careful about. I sense that you come from an experience and background where there must have been severe legalism either as a result of your own doing or someone thrusting it upon you. Your experience of how God led you out of that into freedom is important and your warnings to the Body regarding Pharisaism are also important. We have all been called to play a part, Stref. God has given us all our PART.

I was not brought to the Lord by a Fire and Brimstone message. Rather, I was "wooed" by God through the message of forgiveness and love. It is knowing His Love (which includes judgment) that constrains me to tell people about unpleasant things, too.

Iron sharpeneth Iron.

I hope you understand where I am coming from a little better.

Rick

[sheep wrecked]

I was brought up a very legalistic religious denomination which threatened me, within an inch of my life, that God was out to get me for my "disobedience" [pure legalism]. What I did not understand until much, much later in life is that a relationship with God is based on trust, love, and humility - not what we do or don't do to "impress" Him [more legalism]

It is not that a true believer is "disobedient" which actually means rebelliousness. That kind of person does not have a deep relationship with Christ. We all sin and fall short of the glory of God, but "disobedience" is willful sin. Those that truly serve God and love Him with all their hearts have no desire to willfully disobey God

This text comes to mind:

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Heb 4:13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
Heb 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

In other words, God looks at the intent and motive of the heart. We are the righteousness of God in Christ. He does not see His kids as disobedient rebellious children who are yearning to do wrong in spite of themselves. He sees the heart and love that one has for Him and the desire to serve Him as He wills. This is not legalism or a failure to obey. It is God's grace extended to us as sinners in continual need of our Savior and God

We all sin daily, but perfection like God is not sinlessness, but maturity in belief and faith, and trusting in the faithfulness and forgiveness of God for all our sins.

Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect [G5046], even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

G5046
τέλειος
teleios
Thayer Definition:
1) brought to its end, finished
2) wanting nothing necessary to completeness
3) perfect
4) that which is perfect
4a) consummate human integrity and virtue
4b) of men
4b1) full grown, adult, of full age, mature

[heb13-13]

(07-20-2009 02:01 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote:  I was brought up a very legalistic religious denomination which threatened me, within an inch of my life, that God was out to get me for my "disobedience" [pure legalism]. What I did not understand until much, much later in life is that a relationship with God is based on trust, love, and humility - not what we do or don't do to "impress" Him [more legalism]

It is not that a true believer is "disobedient" which actually means rebelliousness. That kind of person does not have a deep relationship with Christ. We all sin and fall short of the glory of God, but "disobedience" is willful sin. Those that truly serve God and love Him with all their hearts have no desire to willfully disobey God

This text comes to mind:

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Heb 4:13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
Heb 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

In other words, God looks at the intent and motive of the heart. We are the righteousness of God in Christ. He does not see His kids as disobedient rebellious children who are yearning to do wrong in spite of themselves. He sees the heart and love that one has for Him and the desire to serve Him as He wills. This is not legalism or a failure to obey. It is God's grace extended to us as sinners in continual need of our Savior and God

We all sin daily, but perfection like God is not sinlessness, but maturity in belief and faith, and trusting in the faithfulness and forgiveness of God for all our sins.

Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect [G5046], even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

G5046
τέλειος
teleios
Thayer Definition:
1) brought to its end, finished
2) wanting nothing necessary to completeness
3) perfect
4) that which is perfect
4a) consummate human integrity and virtue
4b) of men
4b1) full grown, adult, of full age, mature

Hi Sheep,

Disobedient and rebellious may have been incorrect choices for words. Sometimes we want to do it ourselves, which would be lack of yielding or submission. It's all part of maturing and growing up in Christ.

LAW - Me doing something for God.
GRACE - God doing something for Me. Big difference!!

Romans Chapter 7 - 45 occurrences of I, ME, MY
Romans Chapter 8 - 19 occurrences of Spirit

I think as we grow in faith and our trust relationship with God, we become more yielded and submitted to the leading of the Holy Spirit.

Very good post. Constant clarification is good.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Rom 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

[Vic]

I think one of the important issues is understanding that the desire to please God is God given. It's not based on the flesh, on legalism, on thinking we have to do such and such. Rather, it is a heart and mind awareness of having Christ--given by God-- as our focus and with that comes the desire to do those things that are pleasing to God. Not of ourselves. As He would have us do. Even the apostles spoke of desring to please God. They were not being legalistic.

1Th 4:1 Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us*** how ye ought to walk and to please God, *** so ye would abound more and more.

1Th 2:4 But as we were allowed of God to be put in trust with the gospel, even so we speak; not as pleasing men, but God, which trieth our hearts.

2 Timothy 2:3-7 Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ. 4. No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; **that he may please him who hath chosen him*** to be a soldier. 5. And if a man also strive for masteries, yet is he not crowned, except he strive lawfully. 6. The husbandman that laboureth must be first partaker of the fruits. 7. Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things.

Legalism is often wrongly applied and believed to be taking place when it comes to those who are committed to Christ and are living for Him. Because He calls us to do things--in the Spirit-- that reflect in what we do as individuals. It's a heart and mind condition of living in the Spirit, which then reflects in our activities--including, and perhaps most importantly, the desire to do those things that please Him. We can't do that unless we are living for Him according to the Scriptures as He leads.

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Col 1:9 For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and **to desire** that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;
10 That ye might **walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing,** being **fruitful in every good work,** and increasing in the knowledge of God;
11. Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;

The Scriptures confirm that part of living for Him is doing things that please Him.

1 John 3:21-22 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God. 22. And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and **do those things ***that are pleasing in his sight.

[pastor_chris]

A Reverend is someone who has been ordained (I am one )

A Pastor is the shepherd in a church. All shepherds are pastors not all pastors are reverends.

[Emjesown]

There are shephers who aren 't really shepherds

And there are people who are not a shepherd, but do as a shepherd suppose to......

EMJE

[heb13-13]

(07-22-2009 03:25 AM)pastor_chris Wrote:  A Reverend is someone who has been ordained (I am one )

A Pastor is the shepherd in a church. All shepherds are pastors not all pastors are reverends.

Hi Chris,

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Cool!

I guess we are all Reverends then. But, you can just call me, Rick.

Looks like there are two kinds of ordinations. I'll take John 15:16.

Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Chris,

If you are not ordained according to John 15:16, then man's "ordination" might make you a "reverend", but it doesn't make you ORDAINED of God. [/color]

Man's Ordination does not equate to God's Ordination.

Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton are Reverends.

Jesus said, that He has ordained everyone that He has chosen. Is John 15:16 only for a select few or for every blood bought Saint of God?