Tithing

[pastor_chris]

I will not be back. It is obvious that I am an evil, no good pastor. I am greedy and power hungry. I am selfish, pridefilled and "puffed up". I quoted scripture which was not even really referenced. The Bible calls pastors the guardian of the soul by the way Sheep. It is obvious there is a deep resentment for pastors here. No one heard my heart instead they threw darts.

I am not welcome, I see that. I am sorry for bothering you all.

[heb13-13]

(07-23-2009 11:25 PM)pastor_chris Wrote:  I will not be back. It is obvious that I am an evil, no good pastor. I am greedy and power hungry. I am selfish, pridefilled and "puffed up". I quoted scripture which was not even really referenced. The Bible calls pastors the guardian of the soul by the way Sheep. It is obvious there is a deep resentment for pastors here. No one heard my heart instead they threw darts.

I am not welcome, I see that. I am sorry for bothering you all.

Chris,

You are playing the victim and you created a Straw Man and then attacked it. I think you misrepresented yourself. We actually give more credit to Pastors than you realize, because no true Pastor would talk like you did (publicly lamenting about their congregation) and you end up by giving yourself one more title, "Guardian of the Soul". Sounds very Romish to me.

You came, you stirred up commotion and you left and are trying to leave us with condemnation. No one should receive any and no one should lose any sleep over you.

For all we know, we are talking to a 30 year old man still living at home who tried to get into church "leadership", but they did not have a place for you. I wonder why?

Now we can get back to talking about the Scriptural position of tithing or not.

Psa 4:8 I will both lay me down in peace, and sleep: for thou, LORD, only makest me dwell in safety.

[pastor_chris]

Rick,

First I can prove I am a pastor, but whatever. Second frankly I am pretty hurt. I know I came in guns blazing but I never expected to be treated this way in such a uniform way. You have just thoroughly condemned me and marginalized me. Do you see that? I acted rashly. I came here looking for friendship and fellowship. I thought that you were being to hard on pastors. I am not Catholic, far from it I am Southern Baptist. We are as far from Rome as you get and we are congregational. Everything I said about the pastorate was more or less based on scripture. Whether you are aware or not scripture clearly teaches that pastors are to Watch over the souls of the sheep entrusted to them. I do not believe pastors are to "Lord over" anyone and that is not what I meant.

I feel totally ganged up on in here. Thats why I said I was leaving. I cooled off and came back hoping that maybe I just go too riled up and maybe this group was a place where I might have a place to sound. I am being sincere and concilatory right now whether you know it or not. If you want to slam me again go ahead. But I am attempting to right this wrong.

[pastor_chris]

Since I have taken heat over this I just thought I'd give a verse to support what I said earlier about Pastors watching over souls. Take it of leave it:

KJV Hebrews 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

But what do I know?

[heb13-13]

(07-24-2009 01:32 AM)pastor_chris Wrote:  Since I have taken heat over this I just thought I'd give a verse to support what I said earlier about Pastors watching over souls. Take it of leave it:

KJV Hebrews 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

But what do I know?

Chris,

Thanks for coming back. Let's try to start fresh and we can begin with Hebrews 13:17. Good place to start as this verse has been quite abused.

I apologize if I offended you in anyway.

Let's be Bereans and see what the Scriptures say.

I will have to continue later, as I am quite busy today.

Rick

[Mark]

(07-24-2009 09:45 AM)heb13-13 Wrote:  [quote='pastor_chris' pid='3236' dateline='1248413568']
Since I have taken heat over this I just thought I'd give a verse to support what I said earlier about Pastors watching over souls. Take it of leave it:

KJV Hebrews 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

But what do I know?

I believe that there is much confusion to this verse. I know many pastors take this as their right to "rule" the congregation and that they must "submit" to what they say. That is going against the scripture in my opinion. Paul exhorted the church to show proper respect for those who were in leadership roles. He says in the previous verses to remember the former leaders and to imitate their faith.
Pastors today often forget that they are supposed to be teaching as Christ taught. I don't recall Jesus ever hammering people and making them feel bad. There is a fine line between shepherding and dictating. Jesus was a humble master. Love came before everything else in His ministry. Today, love takes a back seat to money, respect, reverence, admiration. Too many leaders want to be set on a pedastal and looked up to. Christ came as a servant. He did not teach that those who would be leaders would be looked up to in awe and reverence. That goes totally against the nature of His teaching. It seems that trust in God providing ones needs is only for the people and not for the leaders. Jesus never said that leaders should live free and above everyone else. He taught that everyone was equal. I don't hear that being taught today. I think if everyone took a step back and looked at one another and tried to really help each other, no one would really have a reason to complain. We would all be supporting each other in all areas. Just my thoughts for today.

God Bless,

Mark

[pastor_chris]

Mark,

I understand your concern about this verse being abused, I agree that this can and does happen. I also must say that the verse is written to the congregation to remind them to remain submitted to the leadership of the God called leaders in their assembly. What you dont know is that most pastors never even refer to this verse in their churches for fear that people will accuse them of "lording over them". We are accussed of being dictators frequently. If I have $100 for every time I was told I was a dictator I would be able to buy myself a new car. Am I a dictoator? Not at all! I am in a conregationally ruled church. I couldn't be even if I wanted to. Every time that is uttered what it really means is "I don't like your decision and I want to be in charge now, I would have made a better choice". No one has more accountability than the pastor of a Southern Baptist Church. The church has the right to remove me at their own whim. Now of course most SBC (or congregational) churches dont just throw pastors out for no reason, but it does happen. And actually it happens in about 20% of our churches, way to much.

Pastors spend alot of their time doing things that they weren't really called to do because of the desire of the church body. Most of our American churches have groups of people who are quite rebellious and oppose and authority. Even if it is biblically mandated. The scripture tells us to "Obey our leaders" because God is a God of order. Someone has to lead the congregation in a pastoral role. This is why Jesus asked Peter to "feed my sheep". I think that there is a considerable amount of dislike for the Pastoral role in established churches on here. I think this attitude is mostly unfounded although may have some validity.

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OH!! The Verse.... lets take a look real quick:
It says to "obey" or listen to those who "rule" or "command" or "govern" over you. Clearly this is a very obvious statement that there are to be leaders who exercise a certain amount of authority and command a certain repsect.

-it also says that They watch over your souls as those who will give an account

This means that they will be held accountable for your spiritual health. This means that God holds Pastors/leaders accountable, not disgruntled church members. At least this is God's model according to Hebrews. Then it basically says to make sure their job is not one that causes "grief". In other words, dont give them heartache while they are "watching over your souls".

Sorry but this verse is clear, pastors or elders are leaders with God given authority in the church. They are to held accountable by God. It is also true that the scripture teaches they are not to "Lord over" the people. The people are to willingly submit. If either the pastor Lord's over or the church member rebels then the paradigm breaks down. The reason why American Christianity is in such disarray is because too many pastors "Lord over" and too many church members make their pastors job one of "grief" rather than joy. This is a two way street. But honestly as a pastor I will tell you the anti-authoritarian attitude in our churches is one of the biggest problems. If pastors were allowed to correct those in open sin without repurcussion and if they were allowed to lead as a servant leader with the God given authority they were divinley imparted much of the churches ills would cease. In the same vein churches should have some way to reign in an elder who "lording over" without hurting the dignity of the pastoral office. Unfortunately most churches ignore these problems and allow them to perpetuate.

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1 Thessalonians 5:12-13 (NKJV)
12 And we urge you, brethren, to recognize those who labor among you, and are over you in the Lord and admonish you,
13 and to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake. Be at peace among yourselves.

Again Paul tells the churches to recognize those who are "over you in the Lord" and to "esteem them very highly in love"

1 Corinthians 16:14-18 (NKJV)
14 Let all that you do be done with love.
15 I urge you, brethren--you know the household of Stephanas, that it is the firstfruits of Achaia, and that they have devoted themselves to the ministry of the saints--
16 that you also submit to such, and to everyone who works and labors with us.
17 I am glad about the coming of Stephanas, Fortunatus, and Achaicus, for what was lacking on your part they supplied.
18 For they refreshed my spirit and yours. Therefore acknowledge such men.

In the above verse Stephanus had obviously been set apart for ministry Paul asks the people to submit. I highly encourage a study of the greek word for "submit" in the scriptures, in means what it says.

And again.....

Hebrews 13:7 (KJV)
7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

Again he uses the phrase "rule over you" teaching that Pastors/elders have God given authority. By the way this is one of the reasons you ought to be in a local assembly, to submit to the teaching of the word and so that a God called man of God can watch over your soul.

1 Timothy 5:17-18 (KJV)
17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
18 For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.

And again Paul teaches that Pastors who teach and preach and (rule well) should receive "double honor" . He goes onto say not to "muzzle the ox", clearly he is taking about pastoral compensation. The verse in context seems to be saying that those who rule well should be "doubly compensated". Whether or not you are comfortable with this or not the scripture teaches that Pastors who teach the Word well and rule well should be compensated well. What that means is open for debate but a paid ministry is absolutely taught.

And again Paul teaches clearly that those who live preaching the gospel should make their living from their labor. In other words they should be compensated for their hard work. Again he uses the illustration of "not muzzling the ox". The early church obviously struggled with a "paid ministry" just like many of you do today.

1 Corinthians 9:9-14 (KJV)
9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?
10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.
11 If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?
12 If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.
13 Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?
14 Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.

Let me close with this. Why is it wrong for a pastor to earn his living from his lifes work? Doctors, lawyers, school teachers etc. all earn a wage for their labor, why is it wrong for a minister? Many here resent the paid ministry but it doesnt make sense. None of you would go to a job where you were not compensated. Sure pastors also are serving the Lord, but isnt God as good of an employer as the hospital or the school? I believe the resentment of paid pastors smacks of jealousy. Maybe I am wrong but we do an honorable thing and it is worthy of a living wage and if we do it well it is worthy of double honor, just as you who work hard at your jobs get raises when you do well.

The Pastorate is an honorable calling, and yes an honorable way to make a living:

1 Timothy 3:1 (KJV)
1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

[sheep wrecked]

Hi Chris,

You have a really long post there with lots of things to address. I just wanted to say a few things in response before the discussion really gets going

First of all, I appreciate the fact that you are willing to discuss the issues, rather than get upset. Our position has always been to hold up teachings to the Word of God and let the Word speak of how we must live, not force the Word to agree with what we think

All of us here have been involved in churches, some of us many of them so we are familiar with how the church has set up the pastoral position. Personally, I don't believe it is Scriptural for a number of reasons. But that may be addressed as we gather our thoughts and see what the Word has to say. You are incorrect in your assumption that we don't know how pastors suffer or are treated badly - just as we know all about abusive ones. We are not strangers to the inadequacies in the church, which is why some of us don't attend

I think you are under the impression that the church has designated the pastoral office and it is above reproach. I am not speaking of individuals, but the office itself. Even the passages that you have posted do not uphold your thoughts concerning what a pastor does. I have heard your ideas and concepts seen implemented in many churches. It does not work. This shows there is error in the system, regardless of congregants. Actually, I have never seen it work correctly or with success anywhere

The reason is that man is a control freak. So any kind of religious system that implements an authoritative position for pastors and elders will always fail in its attempts to "rule" the church. So why did Paul seem to authorize such positions and what are they supposed to be compared to Scripture? That would be worth discussing and seeing what God's Word has to say, not man

As far as making a living off the gospel, that is not implied or stated in the text. Double honor is not payment for services rendered. It is respect and offerings of love for a job well done - the key words are "a job well done", not because they are a pastor. It is not a salary or a payment system that includes housing, cars, benefits and a retirement fund. The reward for a job well done is not a sum of money determined ahead of time. In this the church errs thinking that the pastor's reward is the bucks. The text does not say that. The context is compared to cattle *eating* what they tread. If you want to be "rewarded" for your labor, that would be a barrel of corn

Paul clearly showed that working for a living is how a man supports his family, not being pastor on a salary. Pastors are not supposed to earn a living from the Gospel. That is really a very ungodly perspective. A pastor is there to serve God in whatever capacity God leads, trusting Him for provision and getting a real job to pay the bills. If the congregation takes up offerings to supplement him, then praise God. Not everyone can afford to support another person when they can barely support themselves

My personal perspective is the reason the church has failed, gets ugly, dumps pastors and has control freaks on the pulpit is because the wrong system has been implemented. It's just not a Biblical system. Men fail because they are Pastors for all the wrong reasons. This is why the church has failed and is imploding. It is self seeking and abundant in vain glory. Pride goeth before destruction

1Co 13:4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
1Co 13:5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
1Co 13:6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
1Co 13:7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

Gal 5:26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

Pro 16:18 Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.

[LindaR]

(07-24-2009 01:28 PM)pastor_chris Wrote:  Mark,

I understand your concern about this verse being abused, I agree that this can and does happen. I also must say that the verse is written to the congregation to remind them to remain submitted to the leadership of the God called leaders in their assembly. What you dont know is that most pastors never even refer to this verse in their churches for fear that people will accuse them of "lording over them". We are accussed of being dictators frequently. If I have $100 for every time I was told I was a dictator I would be able to buy myself a new car. Am I a dictoator? Not at all! I am in a conregationally ruled church. I couldn't be even if I wanted to. Every time that is uttered what it really means is "I don't like your decision and I want to be in charge now, I would have made a better choice". No one has more accountability than the pastor of a Southern Baptist Church. The church has the right to remove me at their own whim. Now of course most SBC (or congregational) churches dont just throw pastors out for no reason, but it does happen. And actually it happens in about 20% of our churches, way to much.

Pastors spend alot of their time doing things that they weren't really called to do because of the desire of the church body. Most of our American churches have groups of people who are quite rebellious and oppose and authority. Even if it is biblically mandated. The scripture tells us to "Obey our leaders" because God is a God of order. Someone has to lead the congregation in a pastoral role. This is why Jesus asked Peter to "feed my sheep". I think that there is a considerable amount of dislike for the Pastoral role in established churches on here. I think this attitude is mostly unfounded although may have some validity.

---

OH!! The Verse.... lets take a look real quick:
It says to "obey" or listen to those who "rule" or "command" or "govern" over you. Clearly this is a very obvious statement that there are to be leaders who exercise a certain amount of authority and command a certain repsect. ...

[Edited for size by Vic]

Amen!

[pastor_chris]

Sheep,

I respectfully disagree. The verses I quoted were all in context and they all point to "compensation" for the pastor-teacher in a local body. Now what is comensation? You say it is a barrel of corn. Well maybe 2,000 years ago a barrell of corn would be acceptable compensation for a man who labors over word and doctrine. But in 2009 if a pastor does not have money he cannot buy corn, he cannot pay his bills, and he will find himself with no means to support himself or his family. Whether you recognize it or not you have created a double standard for Pastors that is unfair. His work is every bit as valid as the fireman, the police officer, the school teacher etc. He must be compensated with a culturally relevant means of support. I am sorry but a barrel of corn is not going to meet my families needs. I live in the Mohave desert, the temperature exceeds 125 degrees an many days! I need to pay my utility bills.

You are trying to leave the church in the first century culturally. Scripture is to be interpreted in a relevant fashion. We do not have a barder system we have a fiat currency which is the sole means of commerce. Your argument sheep honestly is a bit silly. You impose a standard on pastors that you yourself would never live by. That is truly unfair. And my hunch is that part of this is driven by an intense dislike of the institutional church. Maybe your HR background has influenced your view of the church as corrupt and totally disfuntional but it is a skewed view of reality. Churches are flawed because people are flawed. It has always been this way. Just read the letter of 1st Corinthians. There is nothing new under the sun. To be honest the idea of being a believer apart from a local body is not New Testament Christianity. The internet cannot be a substitute for fellowship and sitting under good Bible teaching.

I like you alot sheep, as I have told you, I respect you. But at the same time I think that you are holding onto views of the church that are not consistent with scripture, church history, or with the view Christ has. Pastors all over the world receive culturally relevant compensation and it is scriptural. Double honor is in the context of "not muzzling the ox" sweetie, if context matters then Paul is teaching on compensation, not just on being nice to the Bible teacher. It is true Paul worked full time but He clearly taught in the above scripture that Ministers are to "make their living off the gospel". Deny this but you are wrong, I am sorry to say. This is not ungodly, what is ungodly is the "love of money" or "greed". But money itself and compensation are not evil. It is all about the heart. This is a pretty rigid and legalistic interpretation of Pastoral compensation you post here.

I will give you an out. There is only one valid criticism of our current system which I will accept. And that is that Paul may have never had a "full time" ministry in mind in the sense that we have today. But first this cannot be proven and second of all, even if it was the case all that means is that pastors ought to be bi-vocational, which many that I know actually have that conviction. But having said this it is not a "sin" to be a full time minister. prove from the Bible that current model is wrong? I dont think you can. The problem isnt the model it is that we are sinful, and churches have always suffered because of sin. One more item is appropriate here. In church history (the first 300 years) there is good evidence that the church had a full-time ministry. In many churches the pastor received a percentage of the tithes. In Rome it as 25% at one time. Many our churches pay their pastors far less than that. The point is your opinion is not only inconsistent with scripture but is at odds with History, even pre-constantine Christianity (if you buy the church fall paradigm).

Anyways Blessings!!!!

Chris

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