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karebear · (This post was last modified: 08-09-2009 07:11 PM by karebear.)

(08-09-2009 06:39 PM)Vic Wrote:
(08-09-2009 06:18 PM)karebear Wrote: I am new here and am pretty sure that I've already been asked to leave, but I'm open minded to learn and so have continued reading posts.

That's really enough of that type of talk karebear. If you were going to be banned you would be given fair warning. You have been given unofficial warning so far, ie. regarding your first 3 posts. It's not adding up on your warning info. Yet.

Im sorry, i dont know what your policies are in that regard, i just dont feel very welcome, i feel attacked. Perhaps its just my perception and not your intention, if so please forgive me.

Sheep Wrecked,
Thank you for your reply. I agree with you 100%! I understand what you are saying about he old and new covenant, legalism etc.
I just have not seen that teaching at El Shaddai and I am sure my Mom would have spotted it in her 5 years there.
If what you say is true about El Shaddai then I certainly do not want any part of it.
Would you be able to show me where it is being taught by Pastor Biltz?
You are right, I am excited about learning about the feast days and Gods appointed times etc as they all confirm Christ as the Messiah and the fulfillment of the law, and its like being a new Christian again, except that i have a lot of study and a good foundation already. I've always had a heart for Israel, though i cannot say why, its just always been there. Maybe its just because my boss is a Jewish Carpenter as they say.

oh and i wanted to add that before i came to El Shaddai i attended another HR church with my mom but something was just not right with it. I did not go back. I think i spotted a ridiculous amount of legalism and a fanatical kind of atmosphere that bothered me. My mother went on her first trip to Israel with them and when she got back she left that church, she said they were getting into some really unbiblical doctrine.
So they are not all the same i think.

sheep wrecked · 08-09-2009, 07:57 PM

(08-09-2009 06:57 PM)karebear Wrote: Sheep Wrecked,
Thank you for your reply. I agree with you 100%! I understand what you are saying about he old and new covenant, legalism etc.
I just have not seen that teaching at El Shaddai and I am sure my Mom would have spotted it in her 5 years there.
If what you say is true about El Shaddai then I certainly do not want any part of it.
Would you be able to show me where it is being taught by Pastor Biltz?
You are right, I am excited about learning about the feast days and Gods appointed times etc as they all confirm Christ as the Messiah and the fulfillment of the law, and its like being a new Christian again, except that i have a lot of study and a good foundation already. I've always had a heart for Israel, though i cannot say why, its just always been there. Maybe its just because my boss is a Jewish Carpenter as they say.

If you believe that Christ fulfilled the law [Torah], then why are you keeping it? It's over, finished, completed, done.

Jesus Christ is not a Jewish carpenter. Nor is He "the boss". Jesus Christ is the Son of God, God manifest in the flesh, the Lamb of God slain for the sin of the world. He is not the "man upstairs", or the "big guy in the sky" either.

Quote:oh and i wanted to add that before i came to El Shaddai i attended another HR church with my mom but something was just not right with it. I did not go back. I think i spotted a ridiculous amount of legalism and a fanatical kind of atmosphere that bothered me. My mother went on her first trip to Israel with them and when she got back she left that church, she said they were getting into some really unbiblical doctrine.
So they are not all the same i think.

All of HR is unBiblical doctrine. It's a false movement based on lies and conjecture that has nothing to do with the NT, which has clearly been shown time after time in the threads here as well as Vic's website.

Perhaps if you had come on board with an attitude of discussion, rather than pointing fingers and letting us all know how wrong we are, and right you are, things would be going along a little differently.

And you have changed your story. You are not new to HR. You have been involved in it for over 5 years and are well versed on the teachings. It comes across as "copy and paste". One thing I can say in a positive way is that they have taught you well.

I will let you in a little secret. The church did not destroy the Gospel. It's been kept in tact just the way God wanted it from the first century. The Gospel was never intended to be Jewish. History shows that "Jewishness" rejected the Gospel, not embraced it or preached it. The Jews persecuted the believers at the beginning and then formed their own religion in the ensuing centuries, which HR has embraced as if it is all something "new".

karebear · 08-09-2009, 08:15 PM

ok so now i see this whole thing clearly. you dont like churches, or church leaders, you've all been burned so you are going it alone. I get it now. I wont accuse you of anti semitism but many would by your words just now.
no wonder my heart has been so greived all this time on these posts.
You put words in my mouth and twist what i say every post!
You are full of bitterness not love, so I am not going to defend myself, because you see only what you want to see in me.

***Vic*** · 08-09-2009, 08:16 PM

(08-09-2009 06:57 PM)karebear Wrote:
(08-09-2009 06:39 PM)Vic Wrote:
(08-09-2009 06:18 PM)karebear Wrote: I am new here and am pretty sure that I've already been asked to leave, but I'm open minded to learn and so have continued reading posts.

That's really enough of that type of talk karebear. If you were going to be banned you would be given fair warning. You have been given unofficial warning so far, ie. regarding your first 3 posts. It's not adding up on your warning info. Yet.

Im sorry, i dont know what your policies are in that regard, i just dont feel very welcome, i feel attacked. Perhaps its just my perception and not your intention, if so please forgive me.

Karebear, we extend a welcome and invitation to all. I think if you were to reread what you posted in your first 3 posts---and read them from the receiving end--you would maybe understand why we are holding you accountable for you have said. It is not our practice to attack, rather, we refute factually and scripturally, and stand up for what we believe. And as we have been trying to show you. We know HR and what it is and what it can and does do to people. And we know what the end result can be. It's not innocent. It's a deception. No one is trying to attack you, karebear. And that you feel that I am sorry.

You can study the whole Scriptures and not have to be in HR to do so. 17434

When you say you keep the feasts, if I recall you said that you can if you want to---without the Temple in Jerusalem and doing sacrifices, how exactly are you keeping them or going to keep them according to the Scriptures, how God decreed them, to Israel?

If I recall you said Biltz quoted from the Jewish sages. That would be from the Talmud and Kabbalah. The talmud sages rejected and denigrated Jesus Christ in those writings, and it is a stepping stone into Kabbalah. The kabbalah is mysticism and the occult. Which part of that do you suppose would be acceptable to Christ?

***Vic*** · (This post was last modified: 08-09-2009 08:27 PM by Vic.)

(08-09-2009 08:15 PM)karebear Wrote: ok so now i see this whole thing clearly. you dont like churches, or church leaders, you've all been burned so you are going it alone. I get it now. I wont accuse you of anti semitism but many would by your words just now.
no wonder my heart has been so greived all this time on these posts.
You put words in my mouth and twist what i say every post!
You are full of bitterness not love, so I am not going to defend myself, because you see only what you want to see in me.

Karebear, SheitlQueen who is Orthodox Jew---a real one---started this thread. She is a member here. So re the anti semitism that HR always try to throw---forget it. Aside from other facts concerning various heritage.

Secondly, you need to reread the pastor thread. No one is bitter or hating anyone. There are many readers and members who do attend churches. Take a deep breath and rethink what you are thinking. No one is going it "alone." Every single person who belongs to Jesus Christ is part of the Body of Christ. He said, He would never leave or forsake us. And if a person is in "between" churches, or attending a fellowship with fellow believers....what is your issue? On the one hand you tell people to study and check things out themselves, but then what?

Incidentally, I have had a few incredible pastors--real men of God. So please forget the melodramatics concerning good and bad pastors. You know there are both. And when I say pastor--I mean teacher. Lower case.

karebear · 08-09-2009, 08:57 PM

I really do not want to engage in this discussion anymore, it is not being done in a loving way. You have made all kinds of false accusations of me and my church, and not heard any of my defenses. I have been accused of being a member of a cult, a non-christian and even of witchcraft! It is worse than any treatment i have ever encountered on a secular message board! You can call me melodramatic or any other name you want so that you dont have to acknowledge how judgemental and rude you have been and putting me on the defense when i came in my first post stating that I hoped that my opionions would be concidered with an open mind, so that i could understand why there is so much hostility toward HR so that you would pass instant jugement on anyone who is called HR as being all the same and a false doctrine.
I have never had a problem agreeing to disagree and every defense i have made has been in response to an obvious misunderstanding of what i believe and what i have said.
If you have no compassion for my feelings then how can you call yourself a christian at all? There is no love in your constant critisism. I am so sorry that i stumbled across this site. I feel like ive walked into a wolves den. I think you see me as the enemy to be proven wrong and crushed. Is this your goal? It sure looks that way because i can see i am not the first person to come here and be treated so coldy.
You have hurt me deeply and I am ashamed of myself for getting into this discussion. You can quote scripture all day long but you dont have love so its nothing.

***Vic*** · 08-09-2009, 09:11 PM

(08-09-2009 08:57 PM)karebear Wrote: I really do not want to engage in this discussion anymore, it is not being done in a loving way. You have made all kinds of false accusations of me and my church, and not heard any of my defenses. I have been accused of being a member of a cult, a non-christian and even of witchcraft! It is worse than any treatment i have ever encountered on a secular message board! You can call me melodramatic or any other name you want so that you dont have to acknowledge how judgemental and rude you have been and putting me on the defense when i came in my first post stating that I hoped that my opionions would be concidered with an open mind, so that i could understand why there is so much hostility toward HR so that you would pass instant jugement on anyone who is called HR as being all the same and a false doctrine.
I have never had a problem agreeing to disagree and every defense i have made has been in response to an obvious misunderstanding of what i believe and what i have said.
If you have no compassion for my feelings then how can you call yourself a christian at all? There is no love in your constant critisism. I am so sorry that i stumbled across this site. I feel like ive walked into a wolves den. I think you see me as the enemy to be proven wrong and crushed. Is this your goal? It sure looks that way because i can see i am not the first person to come here and be treated so coldy.
You have hurt me deeply and I am ashamed of myself for getting into this discussion. You can quote scripture all day long but you dont have love so its nothing.

"No one is trying to attack you, karebear. And that you feel that I am sorry" Did you miss that karebear?

Did you miss these posts above? You need to reread. You came here loaded to teach. Your opinions were not brought in to discuss. We are working very hard at trying to get you to discuss, and answer questions, instead of reacting and overreacting at everything that is said to you. We have also been trying to answer your questions and accusations to us. If we did not care about you and love you because of Christ---you would have been banned by now or at least put on full moderation. Because you keep attacking and then playing the victim. Please consider what you are saying.

heb13-13 · 08-09-2009, 09:23 PM

(08-09-2009 08:57 PM)karebear Wrote: I really do not want to engage in this discussion anymore, it is not being done in a loving way. You have made all kinds of false accusations of me and my church, and not heard any of my defenses. I have been accused of being a member of a cult, a non-christian and even of witchcraft! It is worse than any treatment i have ever encountered on a secular message board! You can call me melodramatic or any other name you want so that you dont have to acknowledge how judgemental and rude you have been and putting me on the defense when i came in my first post stating that I hoped that my opionions would be concidered with an open mind, so that i could understand why there is so much hostility toward HR so that you would pass instant jugement on anyone who is called HR as being all the same and a false doctrine.
I have never had a problem agreeing to disagree and every defense i have made has been in response to an obvious misunderstanding of what i believe and what i have said.
If you have no compassion for my feelings then how can you call yourself a christian at all? There is no love in your constant critisism. I am so sorry that i stumbled across this site. I feel like ive walked into a wolves den. I think you see me as the enemy to be proven wrong and crushed. Is this your goal? It sure looks that way because i can see i am not the first person to come here and be treated so coldy.
You have hurt me deeply and I am ashamed of myself for getting into this discussion. You can quote scripture all day long but you dont have love so its nothing.

You have not been accused of witchcraft. If you were familiar with Galatians you would know what I am talking about. Your theology that you introduced yourself had a bewitching "nature" to it because it communicated righteousness by the law, by the keeping of commandments. The Holy Spirit, not I, calls this "bewitching". Trying to reach Christ and attain righteousness by the keeping of the commandments.

Now, I see that you are trying to explain yourself. Your first post was nothing like what you are saying now. When you come in here with that type of theology, please do not be thin skinned and expect everyone to accept what you are saying because it sounds so reasonable. The only thing that is reasonable is what God says and it certainly does not agree with your original post.

So, if you think you are being misunderstood and want to be understood, expend a little effort and explain yourself. The people in here are quite nice.

sheep wrecked · (This post was last modified: 08-09-2009 09:41 PM by sheep wrecked.)

(08-09-2009 08:57 PM)karebear Wrote: I really do not want to engage in this discussion anymore, it is not being done in a loving way. You have made all kinds of false accusations of me and my church, and not heard any of my defenses. I have been accused of being a member of a cult, a non-christian and even of witchcraft! It is worse than any treatment i have ever encountered on a secular message board! You can call me melodramatic or any other name you want so that you dont have to acknowledge how judgemental and rude you have been and putting me on the defense when i came in my first post stating that I hoped that my opionions would be concidered with an open mind, so that i could understand why there is so much hostility toward HR so that you would pass instant jugement on anyone who is called HR as being all the same and a false doctrine.
I have never had a problem agreeing to disagree and every defense i have made has been in response to an obvious misunderstanding of what i believe and what i have said.
If you have no compassion for my feelings then how can you call yourself a christian at all? There is no love in your constant critisism. I am so sorry that i stumbled across this site. I feel like ive walked into a wolves den. I think you see me as the enemy to be proven wrong and crushed. Is this your goal? It sure looks that way because i can see i am not the first person to come here and be treated so coldy.
You have hurt me deeply and I am ashamed of myself for getting into this discussion. You can quote scripture all day long but you dont have love so its nothing.

You came to teach us the "truth", not to give your opinion. Your "opinion" was simply HR concepts and teachings that are promoted all over the internet, hoping that we would be enlightened to that "truth". If you did not understand by reading all the threads and the website exactly why the HR movement has been refuted soundly, then perhaps it would have been to your advantage to ask questions rather than accuse.

You are guest here, not a teacher. Discussion is more than welcome, but attitude is not.

From your own posts:

Quote:I was saddened to read the negative commentary on this site regarding the hebrew roots movement, but not suprised as i have learned that there are some groups who use this name and are really way off base from scripture, even denying that Jesus is the son of God, one with God.

Quote:I think that when whoever wrote these arguments against the hebrew roots movement researched it, they did not do it with the honest intent to make an objective and logical study, but rather to find ways to disprove it.

Quote:There are many lies even being spread about the hebrew roots movement (I am not directing an accusation at this site).

[mod note: you did exactly that]

Quote:Especially after reading so much of the writings on your site, it is clear that you are very intelligent and studious but also completely convinced that you alone are qualified to read and understand scripture. It is sad that you feel the duty to expose false teachings and yet are unable to concider the possibility that you too may be capable of being mistaken, or that you may be able to learn something new which will enrich your understanding of scripture. I always like to remember to take the mote out of my own eye before trying to remove the speck out of anothers. It is good advice from our savior which keeps us from being blinded by our own self confidence.

Quote:I dont know if you mean to, but you do not come off loving at all, but rather seem to take joy in tearing others down.

Quote:I am very disturbed that so much time and energy is being spent painting this movement as Evil. It might not be something you understand and it might not be where God has placed YOU at this time, but for those of us that have found ourselves ready to learn more (deeply, not different) it is very fruitful.
I think that the last few posts have made some very inaccurate assumptions. It is as if you are LOOKING for fault and finding it even if it means distorting what is actually being said.
Kind of typical behavior of the church for the last 1900 years or so...while changing the Gospel and traditions to suit themselves.

Quote:I think that you are really missing out cause you are rejecting something that you have misunderstood.

Quote:Please do not rely on the opinion of this website, as it is clearly biased.

Quote:ok so now i see this whole thing clearly. you dont like churches, or church leaders, you've all been burned so you are going it alone. I get it now. I wont accuse you of anti semitism but many would by your words just now.
no wonder my heart has been so greived all this time on these posts.
You put words in my mouth and twist what i say every post!
You are full of bitterness not love, so I am not going to defend myself, because you see only what you want to see in me.

Quote:If you have no compassion for my feelings then how can you call yourself a christian at all? There is no love in your constant critisism. I am so sorry that i stumbled across this site. I feel like ive walked into a wolves den. I think you see me as the enemy to be proven wrong and crushed. Is this your goal? It sure looks that way because i can see i am not the first person to come here and be treated so coldy.
You have hurt me deeply and I am ashamed of myself for getting into this discussion. You can quote scripture all day long but you dont have love so its nothing.

heb13-13 · 08-10-2009, 12:19 PM

Good morning, Sheitl Queen,

I have a question for you. What does the Royal Law mean to you?

This is not a trick question. I think it is only mentioned in the New Testament and because of that, I would like to know if the phrase, "Royal Law", means anything to a Jewish person (non-Messianic).

Thank you so much, Biggrin

Rick