General questions for former Messianics

[SheitlQueen]

Quote:I wont accuse you of anti semitism but many would by your words just now.

That would be rediculous on two counts.
First, the vast majority of Messianics are gentiles, not Jews.
Two, Messianic "Judaism" is not any form of Judaism what so ever.

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Quote:I am involved in a HR ministry

May I ask who you minister to? Do you witness to non-Messianic Christians?
Do you feel that by not following Torah, they are sinning?

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Quote:What does the Royal Law mean to you?

I have never heard that terminology before, so I guess it means nothing to Jews

What is it?

[heb13-13]

(08-11-2009 04:13 AM)SheitlQueen Wrote:  

Quote:What does the Royal Law mean to you?

I have never heard that terminology before, so I guess it means nothing to Jews

What is it?

The Royal Law is spoken of in the Book of James in the New Testament. This is the only occurrence in the NT.

Jas 2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.
Jas 2:2 For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment;
Jas 2:3 And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool:
Jas 2:4 Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts?
Jas 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?
Jas 2:6 But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats?
Jas 2:7 Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?
Jas 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
Jas 2:9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
Jas 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
Jas 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
Jas 2:13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.
Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jas 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Jas 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

I have some friends that say the "Royal Law" is the ten commandments but as you can see in the context, it is Loving your neighbor as yourself".

I am thinking that James used the term Royal, because Jesus is our Lord and King and Moses was not a King, so the ten commandments are not the Royal Law. James is establishing what it is for the first time, "Love your neighbor as thyself".

Which makes sense and agrees with the rest of NT scripture.

For Jesus said the following:
Mat 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Paul says in another place (Letter to the Romans):
Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

Anyway, thank you for confirming what I did not know, but suspected and that is that you have never heard of the Royal Law connected with the ten commandments which would make sense. Indeed, Jewish people have never heard of the Royal Law, period.

You have heard of Loving your Neighbor as Yourself, but not as connected to the term, "Royal Law".

[SheitlQueen]

Quote:James is establishing what it is for the first time, "Love your neighbor as thyself".

How can he be "establishing it for the first time" when this is a direct quote from the Torah?

Leviticus 19:18 18. You shall neither take revenge from nor bear a grudge against the members of your people; you shall love your neighbor as yourself. I am the Lord

Quote:Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

This too is quoted from the Torah:

Deut. 6
4. Hear, O Israel: The Lord is our God; the Lord is one.
5. And you shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul, and with all your means.
6. And these words, which I command you this day, shall be upon your heart.
7. And you shall teach them to your sons and speak of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk on the way, and when you lie down and when you rise up.
8. And you shall bind them for a sign upon your hand, and they shall be for ornaments between your eyes.
9. And you shall inscribe them upon the doorposts of your house and upon your gates.

So neither of these are original with Jesus, but simply him quoting Torah:

Quote:For Jesus said the following:
Mat 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

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[quote]
you have never heard of the Royal Law connected with the ten commandments which would make sense. Indeed, Jewish people have never heard of the Royal Law, period.
You have heard of Loving your Neighbor as Yourself, but not as connected to the term, "Royal Law"[/qutoe]

That is correct.

[heb13-13]

(08-11-2009 10:14 AM)SheitlQueen Wrote:  

Quote:James is establishing what it is for the first time, "Love your neighbor as thyself".

How can he be "establishing it for the first time" when this is a direct quote from the Torah?

Leviticus 19:18 18. You shall neither take revenge from nor bear a grudge against the members of your people; you shall love your neighbor as yourself. I am the Lord

[quote]
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

This too is quoted from the Torah:

Deut. 6
4. Hear, O Israel: The Lord is our God; the Lord is one.
5. And you shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul, and with all your means.
6. And these words, which I command you this day, shall be upon your heart.
7. And you shall teach them to your sons and speak of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk on the way, and when you lie down and when you rise up.
8. And you shall bind them for a sign upon your hand, and they shall be for ornaments between your eyes.
9. And you shall inscribe them upon the doorposts of your house and upon your gates.

So neither of these are original with Jesus, but simply him quoting Torah:

Quote:For Jesus said the following:
Mat 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

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Quote: you have never heard of the Royal Law connected with the ten commandments which would make sense. Indeed, Jewish people have never heard of the Royal Law, period.
You have heard of Loving your Neighbor as Yourself, but not as connected to the term, "Royal Law"[/qutoe]

That is correct.

Yes, I see my mistake. I said that James is establishing for the first time, Love thy neighbor as Thyself. I meant to say that he is establishing the term "Royal Law" for the first time and tying it to "Love your neighbor as Thyself".

Thanks, Rick

[sheep wrecked]

(08-11-2009 10:43 AM)heb13-13 Wrote:  How can he be "establishing it for the first time" when this is a direct quote from the Torah?

Leviticus 19:18 18. You shall neither take revenge from nor bear a grudge against the members of your people; you shall love your neighbor as yourself. I am the Lord

Deut. 6
4. Hear, O Israel: The Lord is our God; the Lord is one.
5. And you shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul, and with all your means.
6. And these words, which I command you this day, shall be upon your heart.
7. And you shall teach them to your sons and speak of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk on the way, and when you lie down and when you rise up.
8. And you shall bind them for a sign upon your hand, and they shall be for ornaments between your eyes.
9. And you shall inscribe them upon the doorposts of your house and upon your gates.

So neither of these are original with Jesus, but simply him quoting Torah:

For Jesus said the following:
Mat 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Quote:Yes, I see my mistake. I said that James is establishing for the first time, Love thy neighbor as Thyself. I meant to say that he is establishing the term "Royal Law" for the first time and tying it to "Love your neighbor as Thyself".

Thanks, Rick

The New Covenant in Christ explains that the Law of Moses and the prophets "hang" on the two commandments [Love God above all, love your neighbor as yourself]. I have heard it referred to as a summary of the Law.

We also know that in the NT, that the Law of Christ, is not the Law of Moses. Although some laws or commandments from Torah are part of the new covenant, they are defined and practiced differently in the New Covenant. Love for God and love for one's neighbor exceeds what is written in Torah because the Law of Moses is written on stone, but the Law of Christ is written on the heart.

[SheitlQueen]

(08-11-2009 01:01 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote:  Love for God and love for one's neighbor exceeds what is written in Torah because the Law of Moses is written on stone, but the Law of Christ is written on the heart.[/b][/color]

No offense, but to a Jew that is nonsense....

Do you think that Jews who observe commandments
do them by rote,without meaning or intent? Or do you think we observe them because G-d commands it, and we do our absolute to please Him and show our love for Him by following them to our utmost best?

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Sorry, I tried to edit my comment but was too late to do so...I don't mean to appear rude by
calling it "nonsense"....but something like "written in stone" vs "written in heart" is not in
our frame of reference...

apologies.

[heb13-13]

(08-11-2009 03:12 PM)SheitlQueen Wrote:  

(08-11-2009 01:01 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote:  Love for God and love for one's neighbor exceeds what is written in Torah because the Law of Moses is written on stone, but the Law of Christ is written on the heart.[/b][/color]

No offense, but to a Jew that is nonsense....

Do you think that Jews who observe commandments
do them by rote,without meaning or intent? Or do you think we observe them because G-d commands it, and we do our absolute to please Him and show our love for Him by following them to our utmost best?

---

Sorry, I tried to edit my comment but was too late to do so...I don't mean to appear rude by
calling it "nonsense"....but something like "written in stone" vs "written in heart" is not in
our frame of reference...

apologies.

I think that Sheep may be referring to 1 or 2 verses or both. One in the OT and one in the NT. Correct me if I am off base, Sheep.

Eze 11:19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:

2Corinthians 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

[sheep wrecked]

(08-11-2009 03:12 PM)SheitlQueen Wrote:  

(08-11-2009 01:01 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote:  Love for God and love for one's neighbor exceeds what is written in Torah because the Law of Moses is written on stone, but the Law of Christ is written on the heart.[/b][/color]

No offense, but to a Jew that is nonsense....

Do you think that Jews who observe commandments
do them by rote,without meaning or intent? Or do you think we observe them because G-d commands it, and we do our absolute to please Him and show our love for Him by following them to our utmost best?

---

Sorry, I tried to edit my comment but was too late to do so...I don't mean to appear rude by
calling it "nonsense"....but something like "written in stone" vs "written in heart" is not in
our frame of reference...

apologies.

No offense taken

My reference is simply to show the difference between Judaism and Christianity. As the NT is the authority for the new covenant [Christianity], our foundation is on that rather than the old covenant or Torah. Because new covenant is written on the heart per Jeremiah 31, it is a better covenant, which is stated in Heb [Heb 6:8, Heb 12:24], therefore it exceeds Torah. As you have heard me say more than once - Christian and Judaism are separate religions.

I did not mean to imply that the Jews do not love God or seek to please Him I am simply relating what Christianity believes based on the NT

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake [written on stone], although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Thanx Rick, the scripts you posted are also related!

[SheitlQueen]

Quote:As you have heard me say more than once - Christian and Judaism are separate religions.

Oh, definitely, and that is so obvious.....which makes me wonder why Messianics can't understand that.

[grafted]

Is it not the same God who judges us both, equally?
If a Jew or Christian does something to honor the Lord, is he not pleased, or is Romans 14 simply Paul's musing about what-ifs?