Tithing

[Emjesown]

Long ago
When we came together as believers in someones house(not a building)
we put a few simes or quarters in a pot.
For the coffee and cookies.
If we came together for a whole day or evening with dinner.....everyone brought something.
Potatoe salade, french bread, cheese, icecream or whatever.
We had a meal together, a biblestudy or just for fun.
This way our host did not have to pay for it all.
Those afternoons and evenings where fun.
We got to know each other and the word of God at same time.
Thisis what sharing is to me.
A big churchbuilding cost alot and they expect the believers to pay for the rent, water and heat, in itself that's normal.
And often they collect money for a special purpose, in that case: freely you recieved, freely tou shall give!
But tithing is something else all together.
It was for the levites, widows and poor.


EMJE

[heb13-13]

(08-12-2009 05:57 PM)Emjesown Wrote:  Long ago
When we came together as believers in someones house(not a building)
we put a few simes or quarters in a pot.
For the coffee and cookies.
If we came together for a whole day or evening with dinner.....everyone brought something.
Potatoe salade, french bread, cheese, icecream or whatever.
We had a meal together, a biblestudy or just for fun.
This way our host did not have to pay for it all.
Those afternoons and evenings where fun.
We got to know each other and the word of God at same time.
Thisis what sharing is to me.
A big churchbuilding cost alot and they expect the believers to pay for the rent, water and heat, in itself that's normal.
And often they collect money for a special purpose, in that case: freely you recieved, freely tou shall give!
But tithing is something else all together.
It was for the levites, widows and poor.


EMJE

Emje,

Think about this. Most people are struggling to make ends meet. Then they have to pay a religious tax (tithe) to support a building and staff they might see twice a week.

Also, these "churches" are only in one physical location, always and ever. They pull people and resources from neighborhoods all over the city to this one location where their resources are dumped into this one physical location/organization. Then everyone goes home and repeats the same thing, week in and week out. And nothing at all is going on in THEIR neighborhood. Actually, nothing is going on in the neighborhood where the physical church is either. Because they stay inside all the time and have their glory meeting, get blessed or fleeced or whatever and then go home and repeat again next week.

Instead, house churches should be in neighborhoods all over the city and people should invite each other over to their houses for fellowship. When a house church gets larger than 4-5 families then split up. This creates more leaders, more intimacy, gives everyone experience and makes extinct the spiritually impotent man and woman and spectator. Hallelujah!

The more you stay home, the more you can interact with your neighbors and share the love of God with them in various ways. And the more you stay home the more rested and less frazzled you are, because you are not "running" all the time.

But, most Christians stay busy, busy, busy. Work all day, eat dinner quickly and off to church to sit and listen to someone tell you how you have to DO, DO, DO, more, more, more to be a good Christian. And FEW are developing an intimate relationship with Jesus through His Word and the His Spirit.

YECH!!

I love Jesus' discourse with Martha and Mary, when Martha invited him to her house.

Luk 10:38 Now it came to pass, as they went, that he entered into a certain village: and a certain woman named Martha received him into her house.
Luk 10:39 And she had a sister called Mary, which also sat at Jesus' feet, and heard his word.
Luk 10:40 But Martha was cumbered about much serving, and came to him, and said, Lord, dost thou not care that my sister hath left me to serve alone? bid her therefore that she help me.
Luk 10:41 And Jesus answered and said unto her, Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things:
Luk 10:42 But one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her.

Martha, from her criticizing, did not get the answer from Jesus that she was looking for, did she?

The Religious system is good at making "Marthas", and very good at criticizing "Marys". I guess you could say Martha is a TYPE of religious system or religious person and Mary is a TYPE of Resting in Jesus and ceasing from THEIR OWN WORKS.

[Mark]

Something I noticed some time ago; we used to have Home Friendship Group where we went from house to house each week. We grew to about 18-20 people. Only about 10-12 went to church. It became apparent that more people would rather go to someone's house and hear the Word of the Lord than get dressed up go to church. It was such a blessing to everyone. I think that is how it should be. Whoever hosted would usually supply snacks, but if they couldn't, we would turn it into a pot-luck. When we stopped doing that, the church suffered. Now, my wife says there are only 4 people who go to church (I stopped going a while ago because of the pressure of tithing). So sad to see it stop. Who knows? There could have been several groups today reaching so many more people for Jesus.

[sheep wrecked]

(08-13-2009 12:31 PM)Mark Wrote:  Something I noticed some time ago; we used to have Home Friendship Group where we went from house to house each week. We grew to about 18-20 people. Only about 10-12 went to church. It became apparent that more people would rather go to someone's house and hear the Word of the Lord than get dressed up go to church. It was such a blessing to everyone. I think that is how it should be. Whoever hosted would usually supply snacks, but if they couldn't, we would turn it into a pot-luck. When we stopped doing that, the church suffered. Now, my wife says there are only 4 people who go to church (I stopped going a while ago because of the pressure of tithing). So sad to see it stop. Who knows? There could have been several groups today reaching so many more people for Jesus.

I don't think we can stop the Gospel from going forward. God will raise up who He needs to do that. Because groups or churches fail, only proves the Grace, Mercy, Love and enduring faithfulness of God. He will get the job done in spite of us, not because of us

[heb13-13]

(08-13-2009 12:31 PM)Mark Wrote:  Something I noticed some time ago; we used to have Home Friendship Group where we went from house to house each week. We grew to about 18-20 people. Only about 10-12 went to church. It became apparent that more people would rather go to someone's house and hear the Word of the Lord than get dressed up go to church. It was such a blessing to everyone. I think that is how it should be. Whoever hosted would usually supply snacks, but if they couldn't, we would turn it into a pot-luck. When we stopped doing that, the church suffered. Now, my wife says there are only 4 people who go to church (I stopped going a while ago because of the pressure of tithing). So sad to see it stop. Who knows? There could have been several groups today reaching so many more people for Jesus.

Mark, do you stay home while your wife and boys go to church? I think for your boys sake, you need to do things as a family. Children perceive things differently than adults. Did you read, "Where are the Men", yet?

What is nice about home groups, is the Lord has the opportunity to speak through the entire Body. He is too big for one man to always be His voice.

The Holy Spirit has a relationship with ALL the members of the Body of Christ and is giving people Words of encouragement, knowledge, exhortation, admonishments, dreams, visions, etc. How can one man be God's repository for this?

Anyway, Lord Bless you, Rick

---

(08-13-2009 01:41 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote:  I don't think we can stop the Gospel from going forward. God will raise up who He needs to do that. Because groups or churches fail, only proves the Grace, Mercy, Love and enduring faithfulness of God. He will get the job done in spite of us, not because of us

That's a big 10-4 and AMEN, Sheep. No one will stop God's predeterminate purposes in Christ.

---

Tithing - Part V - Ananias and Sapphira


Two believers, husband and wife, sold a parcel of land and gave a portion of the proceeds to the church. But they lied about how much of the proceeds they were giving. When confronted with their lies, on separate occasions, each of them fell to the ground dead.

People have used the story of Ananias and Sapphira to point out many things, but we are going to talk about what Peter said to this couple and what HE DID NOT SAY.

Before we start let's take a moment and imagine what would be said to a husband and wife in most churches today if they sold some property and wanted to give some of the proceeds to their church. I have heard personally and would suggest that based on today's tithing laws in the church that most pastors would say something like this.

"Peter and Sue, the first thing that the Lord wants you to do with the money that you have received from the sale of your property is to pay your tithe. As you know God requires that you pay 10 percent of ALL your income as your tithe. Then after you have paid your tithe, you may want to give an OFFERING above that amount. Anything above 10 percent is a "freewill offering" to the Lord."

You can buy books in Bible stores that teach this as part of the concept of Tithing. This is not a teaching that is hidden. It is well known and quite public. That God owns 10% of any financial increase/proceeds you come into. And it is taught from the pulpit.

Let's see what Peter said to them about the money they received from the sale of their property. For the purposes of this illustration, we are not concerned about the fact that Ananias and Sapphira lied, but WHAT PETER SAID TO THEM.

Act 5:1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,
Act 5:2 And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.
Act 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
Act 5:4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

First, it is important to note that Peter did not mention tithing at all. In fact, he said that after the land was sold the money was still in their control, just as it was before they sold it. That is quite different than telling them that they were required by the Lord to pay 10 percent but the 90 percent that remained was in their control. Now that their asset had been converted to cash, they were required to pay 10%.

If New Testament Saints and specifically, Peter, had the concept of tithing, which most pastors have today (which is nothing similar to the Old Testament concept of Tithes and Offerings), Peter would have said something like this:

"Ananias, why have you lied about how much of the proceeds you are giving? After all, God only requires you to give ten percent. Anything above ten percent is a "freewill offering" to the Lord."

But again, any reference to tithing is obviously missing. Again, the NT is silent about tithing. This would have been a perfect spot to teach that Christians are under obligation to pay the tithe. But it isn't here. In fact, it isn't anywhere!

Don't you think that if the Law of Tithing under the Dispensation of Grace (now that's an oxymoron if I ever heard one), would be mentioned at least one time, one little time in the New Testament??? The fact is, that TITHING IS NEVER TAUGHT IN THE NEW TESTAMENT.

Again, we are not under a Payment System. The Dispensation of Grace has shed the love of God abroad in our hearts and we give because He has given so much to us. We are led by the Holy Spirit, not by doctrines of men or fleshly laws.

Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

[sheep wrecked]

(08-13-2009 01:42 PM)heb13-13 Wrote:  The Holy Spirit has a relationship with ALL the members of the Body of Christ and is giving people Words of encouragement, knowledge, exhortation, admonishments, dreams, visions, etc. How can one man be God's repository for this?

I get real nervous when I see things like the Holy Spirit giving dreams and visions for encouragement, knowledge, admonishments, etc. Perhaps my uneasiness comes from being part of a movement that excelled in that - and having personally experienced a bunch of it at one time - I am curious as to your meaning there

[heb13-13]

(08-13-2009 01:56 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote:  

(08-13-2009 01:42 PM)heb13-13 Wrote:  The Holy Spirit has a relationship with ALL the members of the Body of Christ and is giving people Words of encouragement, knowledge, exhortation, admonishments, dreams, visions, etc. How can one man be God's repository for this?

I get real nervous when I see things like the Holy Spirit giving dreams and visions for encouragement, knowledge, admonishments, etc. Perhaps my uneasiness comes from being part of a movement that excelled in that - and having personally experienced a bunch of it at one time - I am curious as to your meaning there

Yes, your involvement there is probably why.

God gave dreams and visions throughout His Word. OT and NT.

Nothing more really needs to be said except that it should line up with His Word. He does not give any new doctrine than what He has revealed in the Scriptures. He used dreams and visions in the Word for personal direction, interpretations of dreams, etc.

Joel 2:28

[sheep wrecked]

(08-13-2009 02:01 PM)heb13-13 Wrote:  

(08-13-2009 01:56 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote:  

(08-13-2009 01:42 PM)heb13-13 Wrote:  The Holy Spirit has a relationship with ALL the members of the Body of Christ and is giving people Words of encouragement, knowledge, exhortation, admonishments, dreams, visions, etc. How can one man be God's repository for this?

I get real nervous when I see things like the Holy Spirit giving dreams and visions for encouragement, knowledge, admonishments, etc. Perhaps my uneasiness comes from being part of a movement that excelled in that - and having personally experienced a bunch of it at one time - I am curious as to your meaning there "sos:

Yes, your involvement there is probably why.

God gave dreams and visions throughout His Word. OT and NT.

Nothing more really needs to be said except that it should line up with His Word. He does not give any new doctrine than what He has revealed in the Scriptures. He used dreams and visions in the Word for personal direction, interpretations of dreams, etc.

Joel 2:28

Let me ask you this - if there is no new doctrine, because we have His Word, then what would be the point? I am not really following your logic here. If the NT spoke of dreams and visions as necessary to one's walk, then why is there no teaching on it? Nor is there any instruction to expect it

The problem is that dreams and visions end up being personal interpretation, with no accountability for such manifestations other than ones own imagination. To me, this is in the same category as hearing a voice

ps: every dream, vision, and words from the Lord that I received - I could most definitely line up with the Word [allbeit twisted] - the problem again is accountability - it does not exist.

[Vic]

(08-12-2009 07:19 PM)heb13-13 Wrote:  Emje,

Think about this. Most people are struggling to make ends meet. Then they have to pay a religious tax (tithe) to support a building and staff they might see twice a week.

Also, these "churches" are only in one physical location, always and ever. They pull people and resources from neighborhoods all over the city to this one location where their resources are dumped into this one physical location/organization. Then everyone goes home and repeats the same thing, week in and week out. And nothing at all is going on in THEIR neighborhood. Actually, nothing is going on in the neighborhood where the physical church is either. Because they stay inside all the time and have their glory meeting, get blessed or fleeced or whatever and then go home and repeat again next week.

Instead, house churches should be in neighborhoods all over the city and people should invite each other over to their houses for fellowship. When a house church gets larger than 4-5 families then split up. This creates more leaders, more intimacy, gives everyone experience and makes extinct the spiritually impotent man and woman and spectator. Hallelujah!

The more you stay home, the more you can interact with your neighbors and share the love of God with them in various ways. And the more you stay home the more rested and less frazzled you are, because you are not "running" all the time.

But, most Christians stay busy, busy, busy. Work all day, eat dinner quickly and off to church to sit and listen to someone tell you how you have to DO, DO, DO, more, more, more to be a good Christian. And FEW are developing an intimate relationship with Jesus through His Word and the His Spirit.

YECH!!

I love Jesus' discourse with Martha and Mary, when Martha invited him to her house.

Luk 10:38 Now it came to pass, as they went, that he entered into a certain village: and a certain woman named Martha received him into her house.
Luk 10:39 And she had a sister called Mary, which also sat at Jesus' feet, and heard his word.
Luk 10:40 But Martha was cumbered about much serving, and came to him, and said, Lord, dost thou not care that my sister hath left me to serve alone? bid her therefore that she help me.
Luk 10:41 And Jesus answered and said unto her, Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things:
Luk 10:42 But one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her.

Martha, from her criticizing, did not get the answer from Jesus that she was looking for, did she?

The Religious system is good at making "Marthas", and very good at criticizing "Marys". I guess you could say Martha is a TYPE of religious system or religious person and Mary is a TYPE of Resting in Jesus and ceasing from THEIR OWN WORKS.

I think some small very personal churches are merely expanded house churches. I recall the very first real church we attended which was just before I came to Christ. No fancy anything, very plain--in fact I made a comment about wondering what kind of church it was that was so very plain. My attitude changed when I came to Christ.

It had started as a group of believers who worked at putting together a sunday school and camp for children in a small rural town and then moved to the larger town. The camp was actually in a farmers field and he donated the land for it. He incidentally is one of a few men I have met in my lifetime that I knew that he fully served Christ. He lived it. That first pastor also and another particular pastor later on were doing what the Scriptures say--equipping the saints to stand with the focus on Christ and the Scriptures. Not to be dependent on them, but Christ. And they focused on the scriptures and imparted sound doctrine accordingly and allowed for the edifying of one another. True humble men of God, who trusted God to provide all their needs and were examples of good stewardship---and they never asked for anything or complained, even though they were on limited income. And the people took care of them, as God laid it on their hearts. Money that was collected --a large portion went to missionaries and their families--some were children of some of the members.

The congregation was about 30 or so people when we started attending. The purpose was support of the brethren, spiritual growth and outreach. The neighborhood was always invited to bibles studies, church, special events and all were encouraged to reach out to neighbours and people each had contact with. There was a large emphasis on outreach material and programs---it was always about reaching others for Christ as the ultimate goal.

I think there are still some out there like that. They dont have the big fancy anything. But are just believers desiring fellowship, edifying one another and committed to outreach.

Over the years, for some it became a numbers game, and trying to fill the pews to pay tithes and do the programs and build a new church that was 'more appealing' and do the numbers, and do the programs and do the pacifiying messages that were more appealing.

I also saw people in later years involved in 'neighborhood' outeach, doing bible studies with the ridiculous Good News for Modern Man as the 'bible'. They didn't want to offend people and that book was viewed as pretty generic and 'unoffensive.' I tried going twice to two different groups over the years just as a believer amongst the non and could not fathom or tolerate the junk doctrines.

It's not the location that makes it or breaks it, because there are many wolves who have embarked on starting and controlling and directing house fellowships. It's the hearts focus, and whether it is about Christ and the soundness of Scriptural doctrine, or what many have succumbed to.

[heb13-13]

(08-13-2009 03:47 PM)Vic Wrote:  It's not the location that makes it or breaks it, because there are many wolves who have embarked on starting and controlling and directing house fellowships. It's the hearts focus, and whether it is about Christ and the soundness of Scriptural doctrine, or what many have succumbed to. [/b] [/color]

You are right, it is not the location. The religious system is in the heart of man or it is not. I have been in house churches where the location changed but the religious, controlling spirit was still alive. Vice-versa, I have been a couple of churches that had a building where there was the Spirit of Liberty. Tithing was not preached nor believed and the Pastor lived by faith.