Who has it right?

[grafted]

..Which church, or denomination has it right, or wrong?

..Where do they get it right at and equally where do they get it wrong and WHY.

..Is there really any place where one can get it right?

[Pilgrim]

I wish that I actually knew that answer myself. It would save a LOT of grief and searching on my part!

In my journey I have been in both mainstream and cultish type groups (cultish may be too strong, but a very strict oneness Pentecostal and HR movement, etc.). And I have asked the same exact question that you are asking now.

My thought process is that the real church was pure only when it was formed, and when under persecution. (Under persecution, those who are not true to their faith will leave. Not to say that what they really believe in is true or not.) So, I am interested in early church history. Tertullian was not there at the beginning, but is someone I believe was closer to the first church than we are today. (Ironically, Tertullian's writing style seems to be a fiery pentecostal preacher, which led me to that path)

Keep in mind that modern denominations are really a product of 19th and 20th century US culture. For quite a few years, the predominate christian religion was catholic or greek orthodox, with Luther breaking off in the 1500s.

The "real trouble" began when the bible was placed in a common language via a printing press, and people got all sorts of ideas. Most of the US based denominations were based on variations of interpretations off of English based bibles, some theological based, and some emotional based. I have heard of a pentecostal conference where the main speaker has stood up and said, "By the bible and the bylaws of the UPC we will govern God's church". Sorry, I cannot identify the speaker, it's been too long ago. And while many other preachers taught against the by-laws as a basis for the church, they initiated other such things.

In a church that I actually was in, the preacher said that the dress code standard would remain consistent with the 1959 Sears Roebucks catalogue, the last year of decent dress standards. That is NOT a joke, he actually taught that.

Some of the many doctrines that I have heard were taking the English translation of a verse or two and turning it into a major doctrinal point. When one searches the scripture for the original meaning of the actual word written, either in Hebrew or Greek, the intent seems to be quite a bit different.

And what does all this discussion mean? For me, I still don't know the exact answer. I don't even agree with myself at times, much less any denomination out there. (Note to self, check out definition of Schizophrenia again.) I am still seeking truth. And, if I studied Hebrew and Greek, would I be any better off than anyone else who has already studied this? I think not. So, I read. And think. And pray. My "handle" on this site was chosen because I feel that I am still on a journey to find truth.

2 Tim. 2:15 is the answer that I am attempting to follow. Wish there was a shortcut myself.

I am not against attending an established church, generally non-denominational in nature. However, I have not been a member of a church body for quite some time, as I am unable to support their teachings in total.

I do wish you the very best in your journey.

---

FYI, I had typed the above while watching a TV show this morning on the Strong City cult, also mentioning David Koresh and Jim Jones, showing pictures of the Jim Jones congregation demise, and the forced injection of poison into kids in their mass suicide at Jonestown.

I believe many of these people were really searching for truth as well.

At one time I had the faith of a child, and believed everything a pastor said. Please study wisely.

[Mark]

I too continue to ask that same question. Where do I serve? Where do i fit in the Body of Christ? What am I supposed to be doing? It can get very confusing.
I have been out of church for about 7 months now. I cannot go somewhere and gather together with other "believers" that want you to adhere to their teachings (which, as I have learned is not always what God's Word really teaches). It has confused me a lot and I am still trying to figure so much out. Everyone (all denominations) believe that THEY are the only ones that have the answers. Go to any service or talk to any pastor and they will all say "we only preach the Word of God here". I have found that to be a false statement. And when you ask them something that you find may not make sense in the bible they tell you " well that's not what that actually means. THIS is what it REALLY says." So, you need to be cautious. Search God's Word for yourself. Ask Him to open you understanding. Let the Holy Spirit reaveal to you. It may be hard to undestand, but if you trulys seek Him, you will find Him.

[Vic]

I think when we search after Truth in specific groups, the focus of what we are looking for can get lost.

Who has it right? God does. And what He has said in His Word and what we can conclude from His Word...and other verses may come to your mind about these issues...

> Having it right is about having a right relationship with Jesus Christ. One on one, walking with Him-no matter what.

2Ti 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
2Ti 1:8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;
2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
2Ti 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

Romans 10:9-11 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

> Studying to show ourselves approved; learning to discern between good and evil by use of the Word of God.

2 Timothy 3:13-17 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. 14. But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15. And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17. That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

2 Timothy 4:2-5 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. 3. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4. And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. 5. But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.

> Learning sound doctrine according to the Scriptures---not someone's opinion---allowing God to teach as He has promised, and confirming all we believe to the Scriptures.

2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Jas 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
Jas 1:6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
Jas 1:7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
Jas 1:8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

Galatians 6:1-6 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted. 2. Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ. 3. For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself. 4. But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another. 5. For every man shall bear his own burden. 6. Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things.

Tit 2:1 But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine: >>which means it can found and proven to the Scriptures. It doesn't mean we will have full understanding, but will understand as God teaches us.

> Not compromising on the things we understand as Biblical truth...which is why going to various denominations can become a struggle....many bring in teachings and programs which with some research can be shown contrary to Scriptural truth. Most don't accept those facts when part of it.

Jas 3:17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.
Jas 3:18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.

Luk 12:1 In the mean time, when there were gathered together an innumerable multitude of people, insomuch that they trode one upon another, he began to say unto his disciples first of all, Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy.
Luk 12:2 For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; neither hid, that shall not be known.

> Applying all the Scriptures concerning growing in Christ and what it means to have the fruit of the Spirit

2 Peter 1:1-11 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: 2. Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, 3. According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: 4. Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. 5. And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; 6. And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; 7. And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. 8. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. 10. Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: 11. For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

> know that our faith and knowledge and understanding comes from Christ, and we are to be following the examples as we see in the Scripture of living Christ, by Christ and by the apostles...

1Co 3:8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
1Co 3:9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
1Co 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
1Co 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Eph 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
Eph 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

> Going into a group of believers not with the attitude at what do they have to offer me, but what do I have to edify and encourage them with....if they are living Christ...you will be encouraged and edified. That's how the Body of Christ is supposed to work

Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
Eph 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

Rom 14:19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.

1Th 5:11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

Rom 12:10 Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another;

Eph 5:15 See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise,
Eph 5:16 Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.
Eph 5:17 Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.
Eph 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
Eph 5:19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;
Eph 5:20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;
Eph 5:21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.

****
There's so many things that could be said.

Pilgrim you said it that when you have attended some churches you couldnt stay because you couldn't support all the teachings. We have been in that situation repeatedly. It's not looking for the perfect church as some would say. It's looking for soundness and obedience to the Scriptures and seeing discernent in action. For example....standing against Rick Warren's purpose driven slop...but promoting the Alpha course.....and it's difficult to go into a fellowship and say you know what..that's huge error. It's not accepted.

Also Mark, you said it when "So, you need to be cautious. Search God's Word for yourself. Ask Him to open you understanding. Let the Holy Spirit reaveal to you. It may be hard to undestand, but if you trulys seek Him, you will find Him."

The Scriptures tell us He will teach us and lead us into all Truth. So who has it right? He does. Follow Him and if He leads you to be part of other believers lives, do what will encourage and edify them to serve Christ and use the Bible as their standard of Truth.

Where we are supposed to be is right in front of us. Following Christ with our focus on Him. The rest eventually falls into place as we seek His will for our lives.


Psalm 119

[Vic]

There's an article that might be of interest on this topic:

Painting With Broad Strokes http://www.seekgod.ca/painting.htm

[Ed J]

Nobody or Group has a corner on all truth; we must all see the truths
that others hold to truly see "the big picture" (GOD).

God bless
Ed J

[rancherforChrist]

Wow, this is an excellent topic. Before I registered, I took a look at some of the topics of discussion, and this is one of my favorites. I read some of the replies on this thread and there are so many experiences being shared that it is kinda difficult to know where to jump in. In all honesty, it sounds like there are many truth seekers here, and I like that. I have experienced much of the same rejection and persecution that has been voiced by others here, so I'm not going to try and restate what others here already have. What I would like to share is this. In all that I have suffered in the last few years, in all the pain that I have experienced, often at the hands of those I love very deeply, the Lord has been ministering one thing to me above all else in recent months. Love them well. No matter what they do or say or think, love them well. The just keeps asking me, "are you willing to lay down all that you have and all that you are for any one of them, even unto your own salvation?" My answer is still and increasingly, "yes". Several years ago I realized that I did not love anyone. I realized that I didn't even know what love is, or how to define it. So, I confessed that to the Lord Jesus, and I asked Him if He would define love for me in a way that I could understand. A few days later, as I was driving alone, the Lord began to speak to me and this is how He defined love for me. Love is --- "giving of yourself to meet another person's needs, expecting nothing in return." Well, that definition of love pretty much dissolved any distorted perceptions of what I thought love was. Love is selfless. Love is sacrificial. Love is something that anyone can do (if the Holy Spirit lives in you), and there are countless ways that you can express love. Is it easy to say and sometimes hard to do? Yep, but it is worth the effort. Love opens a way for relationship and it may very well be the key to a redeemed creation.

Having said that, I believe that each person that is chosen, was created for a specific purpose, that one thing that you are better at than anyone else. Me, I like to just hold someone's hand and pray hard prayers for them and lay down everything at the feet of Jesus on their behalf. It is my first love in Christ, and I can't think of anything that I enjoy more.

For someone else it may be a special anointing for healing, or a special anointing for hospitality. As you can tell, I also like to write. LOL. Funny thing is, I'm not very good at it unless the Holy Spirit gives me the words.

Thanks for letting me jump in,
Chris

[Ed J]

(11-05-2009 09:42 PM)rancherforChrist Wrote:  Wow, this is an excellent topic. Before I registered, I took a look at some of the topics of discussion, and this is one of my favorites. I read some of the replies on this thread and there are so many experiences being shared that it is kinda difficult to know where to jump in. In all honesty, it sounds like there are many truth seekers here, and I like that. I have experienced much of the same rejection and persecution that has been voiced by others here, so I'm not going to try and restate what others here already have. What I would like to share is this. In all that I have suffered in the last few years, in all the pain that I have experienced, often at the hands of those I love very deeply, the Lord has been ministering one thing to me above all else in recent months. Love them well. No matter what they do or say or think, love them well. The just keeps asking me, "are you willing to lay down all that you have and all that you are for any one of them, even unto your own salvation?" My answer is still and increasingly, "yes". Several years ago I realized that I did not love anyone. I realized that I didn't even know what love is, or how to define it. So, I confessed that to the Lord Jesus, and I asked Him if He would define love for me in a way that I could understand. A few days later, as I was driving alone, the Lord began to speak to me and this is how He defined love for me. Love is --- "giving of yourself to meet another person's needs, expecting nothing in return." Well, that definition of love pretty much dissolved any distorted perceptions of what I thought love was. Love is selfless. Love is sacrificial. Love is something that anyone can do (if the Holy Spirit lives in you), and there are countless ways that you can express love. Is it easy to say and sometimes hard to do? Yep, but it is worth the effort. Love opens a way for relationship and it may very well be the key to a redeemed creation.

Having said that, I believe that each person that is chosen, was created for a specific purpose, that one thing that you are better at than anyone else. Me, I like to just hold someone's hand and pray hard prayers for them and lay down everything at the feet of Jesus on their behalf. It is my first love in Christ, and I can't think of anything that I enjoy more.

For someone else it may be a special anointing for healing, or a special anointing for hospitality. As you can tell, I also like to write. LOL. Funny thing is, I'm not very good at it unless the Holy Spirit gives me the words.

Thanks for letting me jump in,
Chris

Excellent response RancherForChrist; love is truly selfless.

May God continue to richly fill your life with his love.

God bless
Ed J

[Vic]

(11-04-2009 03:46 PM)Ed J Wrote:  Nobody or Group has a corner on all truth; we must all see the truths
that others hold to truly see "the big picture" (GOD).

God bless
Ed J

Ed, Contrary to what you have in your beliefs in your book, that "

Quote: What Does This Book Reveal?
Nobody has the entire "Truth"! Not Christianly, Judaism, Islam nor the great minds of science! Because the forces of evil have blinded everyone's eyes until now, even the most learned![website Why it was Written]

The Truth is available and found in Jesus Christ and the Word of God. Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

In other words. Jesus is the way to Truth. Jesus is the Truth. Jesus is Life. No one can get to God any other way. That is the Truth of the matter.

Further, Chris, Jesus said Joh 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

You said, ""are you willing to lay down all that you have and all that you are for any one of them, even unto your own salvation?"

If I am understanding the phrase, even unto your own salvation--it sounds like being willing to give up your salvation for someone else.
Jesus never said even to our own salvation, but the greatest love--which He demonstrated, was by giving up His own life for us, which means the greatest love is being willing to die for someone else. We don't lose our salvation by dying for someone. I understand the concept of loving Christ enough to be willing to die for Him. I believe we all must have that resolution, because that is really giving our whole selves to Him, and as the apostles demonstrated with their lives in many cases. Some will also die while serving Him. But He never put our salvation on the table as being up for grabs as part of giving of ourselves for His service.

[rancherforChrist]

(11-06-2009 05:52 PM)Vic Wrote:  

(11-04-2009 03:46 PM)Ed J Wrote:  Nobody or Group has a corner on all truth; we must all see the truths
that others hold to truly see "the big picture" (GOD).

God bless
Ed J

Ed, Contrary to what you have in your beliefs in your book, that "

Quote: What Does This Book Reveal?
Nobody has the entire "Truth"! Not Christianly, Judaism, Islam nor the great minds of science! Because the forces of evil have blinded everyone's eyes until now, even the most learned![website Why it was Written]

The Truth is available and found in Jesus Christ and the Word of God. Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

In other words. Jesus is the way to Truth. Jesus is the Truth. Jesus is Life. No one can get to God any other way. That is the Truth of the matter.

Further, Chris, Jesus said Joh 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

You said, ""are you willing to lay down all that you have and all that you are for any one of them, even unto your own salvation?"

If I am understanding the phrase, even unto your own salvation--it sounds like being willing to give up your salvation for someone else.
Jesus never said even to our own salvation, but the greatest love--which He demonstrated, was by giving up His own life for us, which means the greatest love is being willing to die for someone else. We don't lose our salvation by dying for someone. I understand the concept of loving Christ enough to be willing to die for Him. I believe we all must have that resolution, because that is really giving our whole selves to Him, and as the apostles demonstrated with their lives in many cases. Some will also die while serving Him. But He never put our salvation on the table as being up for grabs as part of giving of ourselves for His service.

Hello Vicki,

I actually never implied or said that Jesus put mine or anyone's salvation on the table. I am saying that I put my salvation at the feet of Jesus, for Him to do with whatever he chooses. Ya see, I don't believe that Jesus owes me anything, nor does He take from me. Just as no one took His life or anything else from Him. He laid down His life willingly. Certainly the scripture does clearly state that our very souls are more important than our lives.

Matthew 16:24-27
24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. 25 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. 26 For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? 27 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.


I also believe that Jesus paid the price for me. All that I have and all that I am belongs to Him, even my soul. What I lay at the feet of Jesus, I do so willingly and gladly because I love Him. I also love the brethren and would gladly lay down my life and my very salvation for any one of them. That doesn't mean that I am anything compared to Jesus. What Jesus laid down for each one of us is far more than His life, and far more than I could possibly lay down. I have no right or desire to withhold anything from my Lord and Savior, not even my soul. I don't ask or say that anyone else is supposed to do the same. I made the decision to lay my salvation at the feet of Jesus. Even that decision I could not have made, without His Holy Spirit in me. It was not something that the Lord required of me, but it is an expression of my love for Him and my love for the brethren. That your soul is more important to me than my own, surely is not wrong of me.

Love ya,
Chris