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Rose of Shushan · 12-02-2009, 11:42 PM

aw that was lovely, blessings to you Jade!!

Jade · 12-03-2009, 03:08 AM

Lords Blessing to Everyone, and Howdy Rose of Shushan and Rancher for Christ

Thank you Rose of Shushan for your nice comments, wow for me it's such an honor when inspired by the Good Lord.

Rancher for Christ, I agree with you and btw, your facts were presented in a clear and concise manner, so bravo! As you have stated we each have different callings and should a person be called to spiritual warfare, I'm confident they will be mighty in Christ.

What a need there is today; occultism has grown some hundredth fold in a short time. Our culture has embraced all various forms of occultism and it's so in our face now, it's everywhere, churches aren't excluded! What once was secret is now so open, the devil must be par- tee- ying (partying), kinda reminds me of all the ramifications from the saying..."Man can we all just get along".......

I'm sure you must see many awesome victories, and knowing that the battle is great but with the Lord all things are possible, knowing that you, and (us), serve an awesome Lord and Victorious Savior. May the Lord continue to gird you in His armor and go before you into His harvest.

But let me clarify that my contentions are not concerned with a biblically based prayer ministry, but are directed at so-called prayer warriors, that are either over-hyping to extremes or ignore and neutralizing. Adding to this insanity are motivations and overtures to politicize the ministry thus becoming markers of reds and blues wherefore easily manipulated. Subsequently whatever good intentions that might have been achieved are mired in dirt. Thus to many people outside the church, we are marginalized and are demenized. This was my experienced when involved for a short time, what I encountered was nothing but fluff and a pulling on my wallet!

So Lord's Blessings to you in this ministry, may you glorify Christ.

Jade

~~rancherforChrist~~ · 12-03-2009, 03:23 AM

Thanks Jade,

I understand what you mean. May the Lord bless you in the ministry He has called you to.

Love ya,
Chris

Mary · 12-03-2009, 08:11 AM

Mark 16: 14 - 20 (KJV) Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
And they went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

Accompany means to go with, alongside, be a companion of.
Follow means to come after, to agree with and pattern after, to imitate, to be led; a consequence . Essentially, with follow, the sense is that something is first and then something follows after that first thing as a result of the first thing.

So in this passage what is first before the "following" signs? Preaching the Gospel.

How many put the performing of signs as the star attraction? Is the Gospel even given?

Why signs? Are they for indicating "true" believers? In the passage above it says "...the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs" I think the signs confirm the word, not the belief.

Consider:
In Corinthians 14 vs 22 it says tongues are a sign to "them who believe not"

Matthew 16 vs 4: A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.

And that is a very interesting and informative scripture. I would encourage everyone to read through the rest of Matthew 16, and especially consider verses 15 - 17:
He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

~~rancherforChrist~~ · 12-03-2009, 01:22 PM

(12-03-2009 08:11 AM)Mary Wrote: Mark 16: 14 - 20 (KJV) Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
And they went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

Accompany means to go with, alongside, be a companion of.
Follow means to come after, to agree with and pattern after, to imitate, to be led; a consequence . Essentially, with follow, the sense is that something is first and then something follows after that first thing as a result of the first thing.

So in this passage what is first before the "following" signs? Preaching the Gospel.

How many put the performing of signs as the star attraction? Is the Gospel even given?

Why signs? Are they for indicating "true" believers? In the passage above it says "...the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs" I think the signs confirm the word, not the belief.

Consider:
In Corinthians 14 vs 22 it says tongues are a sign to "them who believe not"

Matthew 16 vs 4: A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.

And that is a very interesting and informative scripture. I would encourage everyone to read through the rest of Matthew 16, and especially consider verses 15 - 17:
He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Hello Mary,

First off, you're talking about apples and oranges and what you said here could be very misleading to people. Though preaching the gospel is a part of that scripture, Jesus did not use it as one of the signs of a believer. No one is making spiritual warfare the star attraction. It's just that, well, this topic is about spiritual warfare, and casting out demons mentioned in Mark 16:17, is at least one facet of spiritual warfare.

As for 1Corinthians 14:22 Not only did you misquote it, you also used it in a way that is totally out of context. Again, very misleading. You tried to diminish the very existence of tongues, and you made that your star attraction. Paul was making a point, but before he made it, he also made it very clear that he spoke in tongue more than the rest of them. Here's the actual scripture for everyone to read.

1 Corinthians 14:18-25
18 I thank my God I speak with tongues more than you all; 19 yet in the church I would rather speak five words with my understanding, that I may teach others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue. 20 Brethren, do not be children in understanding; however, in malice be babes, but in understanding be mature.
21 In the law it is written:
“ With men of other tongues and other lips
I will speak to this people;
And yet, for all that, they will not hear Me,”
says the Lord.
22 Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe. 23 Therefore if the whole church comes together in one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those who are uninformed or unbelievers, will they not say that you are out of your mind? 24 But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an uninformed person comes in, he is convinced by all, he is convicted by all. 25 And thus[c] the secrets of his heart are revealed; and so, falling down on his face, he will worship God and report that God is truly among you.

Nice try Mary. Don't get me wrong, I don't care if you poke at me, but I'm not gonna sit quietly while you try to deceive others.

Love ya,
Chris

***Vic*** · 12-03-2009, 02:42 PM

(12-03-2009 01:22 PM)rancherforChrist Wrote: Hello Mary,

First off, you're talking about apples and oranges and what you said here could be very misleading to people. Though preaching the gospel is a part of that scripture, Jesus did not use it as one of the signs of a believer. No one is making spiritual warfare the star attraction. It's just that, well, this topic is about spiritual warfare, and casting out demons mentioned in Mark 16:17, is at least one facet of spiritual warfare.

As for 1Corinthians 14:22 Not only did you misquote it, you also used it in a way that is totally out of context. Again, very misleading. You tried to diminish the very existence of tongues, and you made that your star attraction. Paul was making a point, but before he made it, he also made it very clear that he spoke in tongue more than the rest of them. Here's the actual scripture for everyone to read.

1 Corinthians 14:18-25
18 I thank my God I speak with tongues more than you all; 19 yet in the church I would rather speak five words with my understanding, that I may teach others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue. 20 Brethren, do not be children in understanding; however, in malice be babes, but in understanding be mature.
21 In the law it is written:
“ With men of other tongues and other lips
I will speak to this people;
And yet, for all that, they will not hear Me,”
says the Lord.
22 Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe. 23 Therefore if the whole church comes together in one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those who are uninformed or unbelievers, will they not say that you are out of your mind? 24 But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an uninformed person comes in, he is convinced by all, he is convicted by all. 25 And thus[c] the secrets of his heart are revealed; and so, falling down on his face, he will worship God and report that God is truly among you.

Nice try Mary. Don't get me wrong, I don't care if you poke at me, but I'm not gonna sit quietly while you try to deceive others.

Love ya,
Chris

Chris, I want you to direct your responses to me ok? I don't want you to say anymore to Mary about deceiving others etc. I want you to dialogue with me for now.

Preaching the gospel is what we are all called to do. Sharing the Truth of Jesus Christ. The passage in Mark was Jesus Christ dialoguing with the apostles, and the promise of what would follow them to confirm they were in fact of God-when they preached the Gospel-they were the ones who had personally walked with Christ; the witnesses chosen by God to convey the Truth of Christ. THey spoke other languages--fulfilled. Bitten by snake--Paul and no other record, cast out demons--Peter and Paul, etc and those the apostles specfiically laid hands on for specific purposes; healed the sick--Peter, Paul, probably stephen, phillip, etc --all specifically recorded--with limited focus-- in the Scriptures to confirm who they were and Their record was true.

Acts 4:29-33 And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word, 30. By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus. 31. And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness. 32. And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common. 33. And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.

Luk 24:33 And they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together, and them that were with them, ..Luk 24:36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
Luk 24:37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. Luk 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
Luk 24:40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
...Luk 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
Luk 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Luk 24:48 And ye are witnesses of these things.
Luk 24:49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

Heb 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
Heb 2:4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

Act 5:12 And bythe hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch.
Act 5:13 And of the rest durst no man join himself to them: but the people magnified them.
Act 5:14 And believers were the more added to the Lord, multitudes both of men and women.)
Act 5:15 Insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds and couches, that at the least the shadow of Peter passing by might overshadow some of them.
Act 5:16 There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one.

Act 6:5 And the saying pleased the whole multitude: and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Ghost, and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicolas a proselyte of Antioch:
Act 6:6 Whom they set before the apostles: and when they had prayed, they laid their hands on them.
Act 6:7 And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith.
Act 6:8 And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people.

Act 8:5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.
Act 8:6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did.
Act 8:7 For unclean spirits, crying with loud voice, came out of many that were possessed with them: and many taken with palsies, and that were lame, were healed.

Act 19:11 And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul:
Act 19:12 So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.
Act 19:13 Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth.
Act 19:14 And there were seven sons of one Sceva, a Jew, and chief of the priests, which did so.
Act 19:15 And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye?
Act 19:16 And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.

As far as tongues, Paul spoke more languages than any other. He spoke the Gospel so men might be saved. He also said those tongues aka languages were for unbelievers---not believers. THose who pursue tongues miss that most important fact. Further he said it would be better to speak 5 clear words that someone understand than to speak ten thousand which no one could understand. All gifts were for sharing Christ or edifying the Body. And all were to desire to do things that edified the body of Christ.

Mary · 12-03-2009, 03:58 PM

(12-03-2009 01:22 PM)rancherforChrist Wrote:
(12-03-2009 08:11 AM)Mary Wrote: Mark 16: 14 - 20 (KJV) Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
And they went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

Accompany means to go with, alongside, be a companion of.
Follow means to come after, to agree with and pattern after, to imitate, to be led; a consequence . Essentially, with follow, the sense is that something is first and then something follows after that first thing as a result of the first thing.

So in this passage what is first before the "following" signs? Preaching the Gospel.

How many put the performing of signs as the star attraction? Is the Gospel even given?

Why signs? Are they for indicating "true" believers? In the passage above it says "...the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs" I think the signs confirm the word, not the belief.

Consider:
In Corinthians 14 vs 22 it says tongues are a sign to "them who believe not"

Matthew 16 vs 4: A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.

And that is a very interesting and informative scripture. I would encourage everyone to read through the rest of Matthew 16, and especially consider verses 15 - 17:
He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Hello Mary,

First off, you're talking about apples and oranges and what you said here could be very misleading to people. Though preaching the gospel is a part of that scripture, Jesus did not use it as one of the signs of a believer. No one is making spiritual warfare the star attraction. It's just that, well, this topic is about spiritual warfare, and casting out demons mentioned in Mark 16:17, is at least one facet of spiritual warfare.

As for 1Corinthians 14:22 Not only did you misquote it, you also used it in a way that is totally out of context. Again, very misleading. You tried to diminish the very existence of tongues, and you made that your star attraction. Paul was making a point, but before he made it, he also made it very clear that he spoke in tongue more than the rest of them. Here's the actual scripture for everyone to read.

1 Corinthians 14:18-25
18 I thank my God I speak with tongues more than you all; 19 yet in the church I would rather speak five words with my understanding, that I may teach others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue. 20 Brethren, do not be children in understanding; however, in malice be babes, but in understanding be mature.
21 In the law it is written:
“ With men of other tongues and other lips
I will speak to this people;
And yet, for all that, they will not hear Me,”
says the Lord.
22 Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe. 23 Therefore if the whole church comes together in one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those who are uninformed or unbelievers, will they not say that you are out of your mind? 24 But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an uninformed person comes in, he is convinced by all, he is convicted by all. 25 And thus[c] the secrets of his heart are revealed; and so, falling down on his face, he will worship God and report that God is truly among you.

Nice try Mary. Don't get me wrong, I don't care if you poke at me, but I'm not gonna sit quietly while you try to deceive others.

Love ya,
Chris

I would not want anyone to be misled.
I am making preaching the Gospel the "star attraction" because Jesus did.
Paul diminished the "importance" people put on tongues - and said they are a sign for unbelievers. Paul goes on to say that prophesying - teaching, preaching the word will convince and convict people.
The passage in Mark is not about "spiritual warfare" it is about Jesus telling the disciples to go and Preach the Word.

I like your reference to fruit. Is that not how we are to discern and test the spirits? By their fruit?

***Vic*** · 12-03-2009, 06:35 PM

(12-02-2009 04:36 PM)rancherforChrist Wrote: Hello Vicki,

I agree that this is a very relevant topic for anyone truly seeking the Lord and His purposes for each individual member of the body of Christ. I base the statement I made on one scripture, though there are others that apply.

Ephesian 6:10-20
10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might. 11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age,[c] against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. 13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
14 Stand therefore, having girded your waist with truth, having put on the breastplate of righteousness, 15 and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace; 16 above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one. 17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God; 18 praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints— 19 and for me, that utterance may be given to me, that I may open my mouth boldly to make known the mystery of the gospel, 20 for which I am an ambassador in chains; that in it I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.

I believe this scripture obviously speaks of a battle that we are in whether we like it or not, and I believe it's a battle that we are supposed to be in. I say that because God tells us to be dressed in armor for battle, He also equips us with the knowledge and weapons to be conquerors in said battle. He equips us with defensive armor, and offensive weapons. He warns us of the schemes of the enemy and even gives us strategies to defeat the enemy. He even tells us to be shrewd, but gentle.

I must admit, I started this and two other threads for a specific reason. There is no term called spiritual warfare in the NT. Nowhere does it say we are to go looking to battle satan, or that we can toss him or beat him up, etc. Perhaps I am missing something.

Eph 6 clearly shows that the God given SPIRITUAL armour consists of salvation, truth, righteouness, the gospel of peace, faith, and the Word of God - all this sums up to our salvation, and who we are in Christ, not the weapons of warfare. If one looks at the OT we see this parallel:

Isa 59:15 Yea, truth faileth; and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey: and the LORD saw it, and it displeased him that there was no judgment.
Isa 59:16 And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him.
Isa 59:17 For he put on righteousness as a breastplate, and an helmet of salvation upon his head; and he put on the garments of vengeance for clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloke.
Isa 59:18 According to their deeds, accordingly he will repay, fury to his adversaries, recompence to his enemies; to the islands he will repay recompence.
Isa 59:19 So shall they fear the name of the LORD from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him.
Isa 59:20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.
Isa 59:21 As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.

No where are we instructed to rebuke satan or his demons or try to send them away, or attempt to torment or try hunting them down as something some are prone to try.

Jude 1:9-10 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. 10. But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.

We are to STAND, and resist, not be on the offensive. Paul tells us that when we bring our thoughts into obedience to Christ - that is how strongholds are brought down.

2Co 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
2Co 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)
2Co 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
2Co 10:6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.

strong holds G3794
ὀχύρωμα
ochurōma
Thayer Definition:
1) a castle, stronghold, fortress, fastness
2) anything on which one relies
2a) of the arguments and reasonings by which a disputant endeavours to fortify his opinion and defend it against his opponent
Part of Speech: noun neuter
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from a remote derivative of G2192 (meaning to fortify, through the idea of holding safely)
Citing in TDNT: 5:590, 752

I am not sure I have ever seen a scripture that lists offensive weapons for believers. Perhaps you could elaborate on what you mean by that.

It's about knowing who we are in Jesus Christ and not being swayed by the enemy to reject our faith in Christ or reject the Word as the standard of Truth and which is our Sword by which discernment of false doctrine and such is made clear, and the path that we are called to is also made very clear. James and Peter tell us that by submitting to God and resisting the devil that he flees from us. We don't have to chase him or attempt to engage him etc..

Jas 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

1 Peter 5:7-10 Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you. 8. Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: 9. Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world. 10. But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.

resist G436
ἀνθίστημι
anthistēmi
Thayer Definition:
1) to set one’s self against, to withstand, resist, oppose
2) to set against
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G473 and G2476

stedfast G4731
στερεός
stereos
Thayer Definition:
1) strong, firm, immovable, solid, hard, rigid
1a) in a bad sense, cruel, stiff, stubborn, hard
1b) in a good sense, firm, steadfast
Part of Speech: adjective
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G2476
Citing in TDNT: 7:609, 1077

in the faith G4102
πίστις
pistis
Thayer Definition:
1) conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man’s relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith and joined with it
1a) relating to God
1a1) the conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ
1b) relating to Christ
1b1) a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God
1c) the religious beliefs of Christians
1d) belief with the predominate idea of trust (or confidence) whether in God or in Christ, springing from faith in the same
2) fidelity, faithfulness
2a) the character of one who can be relied on
Part of Speech: noun feminine

It is about Christ, and knowing by resting in Him, we are more than conquerors in Christ Jesus:

Romans 8:32-39 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? 33. Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. 34. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. 35. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36. As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. 37. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. 38. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39. Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Quote:I want to address each question in your post now. My response is based on my personal beliefs and experiences.

Your questions:

Qestion 1: Are demons real in our lifetime?

1Corinthians 12:4-11
4 There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: 8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.

I know there are many that do not believe spiritual gifts and warfare are for us today, and yet verse 6 above says, 6 And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all. I believe that when God says all, He means all. If God is truly no respecter of persons, then don't we present Him as a respecter of persons if we say that He makes some things available to some people but not to others. Maybe my faith or your is truly the evidence of things not seen.

You didn't answer the question. Instead you went into the issue of spiritual gifts. There are different things people are called to do for God and sharing Christ, but He gives what is needed according to His will and purposes. Not everyone is given the same amount of physical things, just as not everyone is given the same gifts/abilities which is the Holy Spirit working through each in order to do His will. It has nothing whatsoever to do with one thing being more or less important than another or a person being more or less important than another. God is indeed not a respector of persons and when in the Body of Christ it is about serving Christ---not worrying about whatever role God calls each to. If you are the cuticle on the little finger, it is enough to be serving Christ in that capacity. It's not about perceived position which merely focuses on pride and self, instead of Jesus Christ.

Quote:Question 3: Can they be killed?

Though I understand your question, I'm not sure that killed is a relevant word to use in relation to our fight against a spiritual enemy. I'm not avoiding the question as you stated it, I just believe that a better word to consider might be "destroyed".
Can demons be destroyed? Even the demons know that they can be destroyed, and I believe there is evidence that those same demons fear their own destruction.

Mark 1:21-27
21 Then they went into Capernaum, and immediately on the Sabbath He entered the synagogue and taught. 22 And they were astonished at His teaching, for He taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.
23 Now there was a man in their synagogue with an unclean spirit. And he cried out, 24 saying, “Let us alone! What have we to do with You, Jesus of Nazareth? Did You come to destroy us? I know who You are—the Holy One of God!”
25 But Jesus rebuked him, saying, “Be quiet, and come out of him!” 26 And when the unclean spirit had convulsed him and cried out with a loud voice, he came out of him. 27 Then they were all amazed, so that they questioned among themselves, saying, “What is this? What new doctrine is this? For with authority[f] He commands even the unclean spirits, and they obey Him.”

The scripture above also shows evidence to support my belief about the next question.

The question of whether they can be killed or as you say destroyed....Jesus made the demons come out of the man, and it does not say He destroyed them.

destroy G622
ἀπόλλυμι
apollumi
Thayer Definition:
1) to destroy
1a) to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin
1b) render useless
1c) to kill
1d) to declare that one must be put to death
1e) metaphorically to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell
1f) to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed
2) to destroy
2a) to lose

In Mark 1:24, the demons know that Christ will eventually destroy them - meaning throw them into hellfire and torment. Because they knew who He was. And they know He has authority and power to do just that. But He didn't. It wasn't time to do the final judgement of them.

Mark 1:33-34 And all the city was gathered together at the door. 34. And he healed many that were sick of divers diseases, and cast out many devils; and suffered not the devils to speak, because they knew him.

Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

2 Peter 2:1-4 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. 2. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. 3. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not. 4. For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

2 Peter 2:9-12 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: 10. But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities. 11. Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord. 12. But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

In fact, while for many the 'evidence' of serving God is whether they 'do' claimed miracles' and 'cast out demons', Jesus gave an interesting rebuke and warning.

Matthew 7:19-23 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23. And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Notice, that those who prophesy and cast out demons in His name, and have done "many wonderful works"---are rejected by Christ and told they work iniquity. The fruit of the Spirit, is not in those things, but in doing the Will of Him and that means abiding the Word of God, given to us as the Sword of the Spirit.

Quote:Question 4: Can they oppress and/or possess people today?

Obviously I believe the answer to question 4 is yes to both parts of the question. Are there other scriptures that establish the authority each believe has available through Christ? Yes. Here is one scripture that shows clear evidence of our authority through Christ.

Luke 10:17-20
17 Then the seventy[e] returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name.”
18 And He said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. 19 Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you. 20 Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rather[f] rejoice because your names are written in heaven.”

Actually the events took place before Christ died and before each believer was indwelt with the Holy Spirit. These seventy were given authority and did those things in order to proclaim the kingdom of God was at hand, and the need for repentance and such. THe spirits are subject to Christ. We are to be obedient to Him.

Quote:Question 5: How do we battle them? Question 6: Or are we even supposed to?

I believe that we have the authority through Jesus, to cast out demons and even send them to the abyss. In the scripture below it shows obvious evidence that the demons certainly believed that Jesus had the authority to cast them out and send them to the abyss, and they begged Him not to.

Luke 8:27-31
27 And when He stepped out on the land, there met Him a certain man from the city who had demons for a long time. And he wore no clothes,[d] nor did he live in a

house but in the tombs. 28 When he saw Jesus, he cried out, fell down before Him, and with a loud voice said, “What have I to do with You, Jesus, Son of the Most

High God? I beg You, do not torment me!” 29 For He had commanded the unclean spirit to come out of the man. For it had often seized him, and he was kept under guard, bound with chains and shackles; and he broke the bonds and was driven by the demon into the wilderness.
30 Jesus asked him, saying, “What is your name?”
And he said, “Legion,” because many demons had entered him. 31 And they begged Him that He would not command them to go out into the abyss.

Also, one might ask why I believe that I have that same authority through Christ. The following verse once again shows clear evidence to support my belief.

Luke 10:17-20
17 Then the seventy[e] returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name.”
18 And He said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. 19 Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you. 20 Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rather[f] rejoice because your names are written in heaven.

You misuse Luke 8:27-31 and don't complete the record. Mark also needs to be read. The demons didn't want to be sent out of that country.

Luk 8:28 When he saw Jesus, he cried out, and fell down before him, and with a loud voice said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God most high? I beseech thee, torment me not.
Luk 8:29 (For he had commanded the unclean spirit to come out of the man. For oftentimes it had caught him: and he was kept bound with chains and in fetters; and he brake the bands, and was driven of the devil into the wilderness.)
Luk 8:30 And Jesus asked him, saying, What is thy name? And he said, Legion: because many devils were entered into him.
Luk 8:31 And they besought him that he would not command them to go out into the deep.
Luk 8:32 And there was there an herd of many swine feeding on the mountain: and they besought him that he would suffer them to enter into them. And he suffered them.
Luk 8:33 Then went the devils out of the man, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the lake, and were choked.
Luk 8:34 When they that fed them saw what was done, they fled, and went and told it in the city and in the country.
Luk 8:35 Then they went out to see what was done; and came to Jesus, and found the man, out of whom the devils were departed, sitting at the feet of Jesus, clothed, and in his right mind: and they were afraid.
Luk 8:36 They also which saw it told them by what means he that was possessed of the devils was healed.

Mar 5:8 For he said unto him, Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit.
9 And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many.
10 And he besought him much that he would not send them away out of the country.
11 Now there was there nigh unto the mountains a great herd of swine feeding. 12 And all the devils besought him, saying, Send us into the swine, that we may enter into them. 13 And forthwith Jesus gave them leave. And the unclean spirits went out, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea, (they were about two thousand;) and were choked in the sea.

Jesus did not send them to the "abyss" He sent thim into the swine. It shows they asked and He sent them into a bunch of swine and the herd went into the lake and drowned. Were the demons destroyed too?...God knows, being that they are spiritual to begin with.They have no power over us nor can they hurt us because we belong to Jesus Christ. However, we do not have the authority to send anything to hell. Judgment of all things belongs to Jesus Christ, unless you have a verse that says we have the ability to implement final judgment and enforce eternal judgment on others including the demonic?.

John 5:21-22 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. 22. For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
John 5:26-29 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27. And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

2Pe 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

Jude 1:14-16 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, 15. To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. 16. These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.

Quote:Vicki, I appreciate your willingness to pursue this topic. I know this thread is fairly long, but I've tried to be very concise with the scriptural evidence that I have presented to you. For me there is much more evidence through personal experiences. I have prayed for people and seen them healed. I have rebuked and cast out demons and seen lives changed, and oppressions lifted. I have broken spiritual yokes and cast down rulers and principalities and strongholds, and seen the results
through the freedom that came afterward. Please understand, that when I say "I have done this or that", in no way do I believe that I can do anything apart from Christ or apart from the will of God. The demons aren't afraid of Chris at all. If I try to cast out a demon in the name of Chris, they would probably have a good laugh at my expense. However, I'm absolutely sure the demons are afraid of the Jesus in me. Only through Jesus do I have any authority, and I believe Luke 10:18 states that very clearly.

<<<<I have broken spiritual yokes and cast down rulers and principalities and strongholds>>> Where did this happen? What rulers did you cast down?

***Vic*** · 12-03-2009, 06:42 PM

Quote:rancherforchrist>... I believe the following scripture clearly shows spiritual warfare (the driving out of demons), as one of the signs that Jesus said would accompany those who believe.

Mark 16:15-18
15He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."

If these signs that Jesus spoke of don't accompany a person that says they are a believer, then are they really a believer? For me to say yes, wouldn't that be like me calling Jesus a liar? Obviously Jesus named 5 things as indicators we could look for in the lives of other believers. Now, there is obviously a fine line here that I believe we should not cross. Just because a brother or sister in Christ has not manifested all those signs in their life yet, does not mean that they are not a believer. On the other side of that coin though, if a person tells you that they are a believer, and then tells you that spiritual warfare and healing aren't for today, then that should be a clear indicator as to whether or not you really want to call them brother or sister. I believe God is so shrewd and so awesome. He gave us some very subtle guidelines to
use, guidelines that we can neither recognize or accept unless the Holy Spirit reveals them to us.

Sorry for not getting this in my original response to you, but I just couldn't leave it out after I realized it.

Love ya,
Chris

Chris, the reality is that signs and wonders and "driving out demons' are not the basis of recognising who a believer is. As stated previously:

Matthew 7:19-23 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23. And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Notice, that those who prophesy and cast out demons in His name, and have done "many wonderful works"---are rejected by Christ and told they work iniquity. The fruit of the Spirit, is not in those things, but in doing the Will of Him and that means abiding the Word of God, given to us as the Sword of the Spirit.

As stated previously, the preaching of the Gospel is the beginning of knowing the fruit of someone. And the fruit of the Spirit does not include those five indicators you mention.

Galatians 5:22-26 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23. Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26. Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

Ephesians 5:8-11 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light: 9. (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;) 10. Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord. 11. And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

Further, as stated previously, what Jesus said to the apostles--chosen by God to be eyewitnesses of the Truth of Christ is far different than what He calls us to. He calls us to obedience to His Word, because that is the standard of our walk with Him. It becomes alive to those who Know Jesus Christ because it is God breathed. It is the Holy Spirit speaking through the Scriptures that gives us the understanding. Those who don't know Christ cannot understand the Word. It's that simple.

There were no further statements from the apostles or Christ concerning the parameters you state. No instructions to demonstrate signs and wonders and casting our demons as the litmus test of knowing Christ. Instead we are to present our bodies as living sacrifices, living righteously, being holy,....

Joh 13:35 By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, if you have love one to another.

It's interesting that Paul prayed for us to have wisdom and knowledge of God and to know His love - that was his focus. Eph 1, Eph 3, Phil 1 and Col 1. Did Paul or the other apostles mess up when writing their epistles, on what our focus should be? And what the test of a true believer is? Just some thoughts...

2Pe 1:2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
3 According as his divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that has called us to glory and virtue:
4 Whereby are given to us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these you might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that you shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. 10. Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: 11. For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 5:1-5 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children; 2. And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour. 3. But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; 4. Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. 5. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Php 1:9 And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment;
10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ;
11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

God does miracles every day. He heals and delivers according to His will, because of Christ. He doesn't need a anyone to do it for Him. Healing is at His discretion and often people are left in an illness or trouble because He will be glorified by their trusting in Him no matter what. You mistake not making a show of it, as someone not understanding God's power at work in individual lives.

2Co 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that you receive not the grace of God in vain.
2 (For he said, I have heard you in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succored you: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)
3 Giving no offense in any thing, that the ministry be not blamed:
4 But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses,
5 In stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labors, in watchings, in fastings;
6 By pureness, by knowledge, by long-suffering, by kindness, by the Holy Ghost, by love unfeigned,
7 By the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armor of righteousness on the right hand and on the left,
8 By honor and dishonor, by evil report and good report: as deceivers, and yet true;
9 As unknown, and yet well known; as dying, and, behold, we live; as chastened, and not killed;
10 As sorrowful, yet always rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, and yet possessing all things.

heb13-13 · (This post was last modified: 12-03-2009 07:55 PM by heb13-13.)

Is the discussion now about the marks of a true Believer?

Or is it still about whether Mark 16:17-18 apply to the Believer today?

I'm confused.

(12-03-2009 07:33 PM)heb13-13 Wrote: Is the discussion now about the marks of a true Believer?

Or is it still about whether Mark 16:17-18 apply to the Believer today?

I'm confused.

These are the original questions:
Are demons real in our lifetime? YES. They did not die out with the Apostles. Eph 6:12

Are they flesh and blood or spirits? SPIRITS.
Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Can they be killed? By WHO?

Can they oppress and/or possess people today? OF COURSE.

How do we battle them? Or are we even supposed to?
Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

John is contrasting the Spirit of God (who is a Spirit) with the any spirit that does not confess Christ. These are spirits, too. He refers to the spirit of Antichrist and the spirit of error. These are spirits, not flesh.

1Jn 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
1Jn 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
1Jn 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
1Jn 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.
1Jn 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

One of Satan's greatest deceptions is that spirits for certain flesh nature sins do not exist. Spirit of murder, lust, gossip, unbelief, lying spirits, etc. The flesh nature is of Satan and that is why when you are in the flesh you cannot please God.

His other deception is that demon oppression and possession does not exist and miracles, signs and wonders stopped with the Apostles.

Ananias, was not an Apostle, in Acts 9:10, yet he had a vision from God, laid hands on Saul and Saul recovered his site.