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Miracles, Signs & Wonders, Giftings & Anointings, Deliverances, Demonology, Etc.
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12-04-2009, 01:38 PM
(This post was last modified: 12-04-2009 01:41 PM by sheep wrecked.)
Post: #21
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RE: Miracles, Signs & Wonders, Giftings & Anointings, Deliverances, Demonology, Etc.
Quote: barley: So why aren't you? Why have you not fed 5000 with a few loaves of bread and fishes? Why have you not raised the dead? Why are there not 100s of people healed that you have laid hands on? When is the last time you stilled a storm? The least you could have done was averted the hurricanes, tornadoes, and tsunamis that took so many lives and ruined so many people's homes and cities in the last few years. Shame on you!  Quote:barley: As you seem to be a fan of taking Scripture literally, do know of anyone that has received all they have asked in Jesus' Name?  How do you know you are praying the will of God in order to get everything you ask for? I am not familiar with the Scripture that states: "humble themselves and ask the Holy Spirit how they should pray" - could you provide a reference for that? thanx! Quote:barley: So even if we pray according to His will, then it really doesn't matter because we will mess it up anyway? Wow - it's a wonder that God is incapable of doing anything in our lives unless we pray right and at the right time  Mar 16:14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen. Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. Please note verse 14. "They believed not". So in verse 16 - He is saying that only those apostles who believe, will be given the signs. This passage is directed at the apostles - note that Jesus *does* say "YE" aka "YOU". If miracles accompany "all" who believe, then why are so many people not healed who have hands laid on them? Why was Paul not healed? Timothy? Trophimus?  Considering the number of Christians in the last 2000 years, we sure do seem to have a whole bunch of sickness, diseases, cancers, demonically possessed and dead people that should have all been healed and raised and delivered, but have not. As a matter of fact - there are about 1,000,000 charismatics world wide - there should be a whole lot of healing going on. Are you guys actually going to the hospitals and laying on hands? why not? You should be emptying out rooms left and right. Time to get off the computer and go out there armed with authority you say Jesus has given you!  Who did Jesus tell to be a witness? the apostles. Acts 1 confirms this. Act 1:2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen: Act 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. Mat 28:16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. Mat 28:17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. Hmm - here again, it says "YE" and "YOU", referring to the apostles.  Joe 2:27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed. Joe 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: Joe 2:29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. Joe 2:30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. This passage was prophesied to ISRAEL. Note Israel in verse 27. All flesh is referring to Israelites. "Your sons and Your daughters" aka Israelites [Jews]. Peter stated that this prophecy was fullfilled at Pentecost through/in the apostles, who were all Jews, in Israel. Act 2:15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. Act 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: Act 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: Act 2:19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: Act 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. |
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12-05-2009, 01:01 AM
(This post was last modified: 12-05-2009 01:08 AM by Barley.)
Post: #22
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RE: Miracles, Signs & Wonders, Giftings & Anointings, Deliverances, Demonology, Etc.
Rick has been having trouble with his connection or something.
Couldn't get his reply to post and ask me to try. So here goes. Hope this is the right place. Barley ...................................................................................... Joel says the Spirit shall be poured out upon all flesh, not on Jews only but upon Gentiles (is my contention per the Word of God). In Christ there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, Rom. 10:11, 12. How can I prove that? From the Scriptures. Up to the NT, divine revelation was confined to the seed of Abraham, none but those of the land of Israel had the Spirit of prophecy; but, in the last days, all flesh shall see the glory of God (Isa. 40:5) and shall come to worship before him, Isa. 66:23. You are understanding it as the Jews certainly understood it back then as being of all flesh in the land of Israel (Jews only), and we know that Peter himself did not fully understand it as speaking of the Gentiles till he saw it accomplished in the descent of the Holy Ghost upon Cornelius and his friends, who were Gentiles (Acts 10:44, 45), which was but a continuation of the same gift which was bestowed on the day of Pentecost. Yep, the same gift. I will point this out. Act 10:3 He (speaking of Cornelius) saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius. (Oh my, Cornelius had a vision, and he wasn't even saved). From Peter's following statement we can see that his previous mindset about Gentiles and the Word of God is changing. Act 10:28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean. Act 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: Act 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them (Gentiles) which heard the word. Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter... So Peter finally realized that what was spoken in Joel was not just for the Jews, but most definitely for all flesh. Now Peter had the complete picture (but you don't) and what happened at Pentecost, happened again to these Gentile believers. The Gift of the Holy Ghost was poured out on them and Peter heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Evidently, other Apostles had the same belief that you have about Joel. Act 11:1 And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God. Act 11:2 And when Peter was come up to Jerusalem, they that were of the circumcision contended with him, Yep, they contended with Peter just like you are contending about this, yourselves. Act 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. Act 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. Does your Bible say that God gave these Gentiles the same exact gift that He gave the Apostles? You keep saying that no one gets the same gift of the Holy Spirit that was given to the Apostles. Act 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God? Anyway, now, you see that Peter and You and even some other Apostles did not fully understand what God meant through Joel. Well, at least Peter and the other Apostles and some brethren recognized that they would be withstanding God, if they believed NOT the same baptism and gifting of the Holy Ghost that they received on the day of Pentecost was also for the Gentiles. But, now they have experienced the FULL import of what Joel was saying. ALL flesh is not ALL Israel. It is indeed, ALL FLESH. Rick Thanks for the reply Sheep. I'll get back to you in a few days.........I got some longgggggggggg work days ahead of me. Have a great weekend. Barley (12-04-2009 01:38 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote:Quote: barley: |
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12-05-2009, 06:27 AM
Post: #23
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RE: Miracles, Signs & Wonders, Giftings & Anointings, Deliverances, Demonology, Etc.
Strefanesh, it is not a false dichotomy. We are commanded to love one another, to have charity. This is what we are to do. Signs, wonders, miracles etc occur if and as God wills, not according to our wills, or our actions, desires, or needs.
Phillipians 4:23 "The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen." |
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12-05-2009, 12:22 PM
(This post was last modified: 12-05-2009 12:26 PM by heb13-13.)
Post: #24
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RE: Miracles, Signs & Wonders, Giftings & Anointings, Deliverances, Demonology, Etc.
(12-04-2009 01:38 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote: This passage was prophesied to ISRAEL. Note Israel in verse 27. All flesh is referring to Israelites. "Your sons and Your daughters" aka Israelites [Jews]. Peter stated that this prophecy was fullfilled at Pentecost through/in the apostles, who were all Jews, in Israel. Joel says the Spirit shall be poured out upon all flesh, not on Jews only but upon Gentiles (is my contention per the Word of God). In Christ there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, Rom. 10:11, 12. How can I prove that? From the Scriptures. Up to the NT, divine revelation was confined to the seed of Abraham, none but those of the land of Israel had the Spirit of prophecy; but, in the last days, all flesh shall see the glory of God (Isa. 40:5) and shall come to worship before him, Isa. 66:23. You are understanding it as the Jews certainly understood it back then as being of all flesh in the land of Israel (Jews only), and we know that Peter himself did not fully understand it as speaking of the Gentiles till he saw it accomplished in the descent of the Holy Ghost upon Cornelius and his friends, who were Gentiles (Acts 10:44, 45), which was but a continuation of the same gift which was bestowed on the day of Pentecost. Yep, the same gift. I will point this out. Act 10:3 He (speaking of Cornelius) saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius. (Cornelius had a vision, and he wasn't even saved). From Peter's following statement we can see that his previous mindset about Gentiles and the Word of God is changing. Act 10:28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean. Act 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: Act 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them (Gentiles) which heard the word. Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter... So Peter finally realized that what was spoken in Joel was not just for the Jews, but most definitely for all flesh. Now Peter had the complete picture (but you don't) and what happened at Pentecost, happened again to these Gentile believers. The Gift of the Holy Ghost was poured out on them and Peter heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Evidently, other Apostles had the same belief that you have about Joel. Act 11:1 And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God. Act 11:2 And when Peter was come up to Jerusalem, they that were of the circumcision contended with him, Yep, they contended with Peter just like you are contending about this, yourselves. Act 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. Act 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. Does your Bible say that God gave these Gentiles the same exact gift that He gave the Apostles? You keep saying that no one gets the same gift of the Holy Spirit that was given to the Apostles. Act 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God? Anyway, now, you see that Peter and You and even some other Apostles did not fully understand what God meant through Joel. Well, at least Peter and the other Apostles and some brethren recognized that they would be withstanding God, if they believed NOT the same baptism and gifting of the Holy Ghost that they received on the day of Pentecost was also for the Gentiles. But, now they have experienced the full import of what Joel was saying. ALL flesh is not ALL Israel. It is indeed, ALL FLESH. Please note that Peter did not even lay hands on Cornelius. Nothing imparted from him to Cornelius. Sovereign act of God accompanying Peter's preaching. (Mark 16) Also, I think you guys are jumping on all kinds of things talking about subjects that I am not talking about. I don't receive anything from anyone unless the Lord confirms it in my Spirit through His Word and I think you do the same. Peter had wrong thinking about the Gift of the Holy Spirit and God removed that ignorance. It may be difficult to change a long held position, especially if we espoused it to the world. But, once the truth is revealed to you, what do you gain by not receiving it? What makes the difference: Humility Paul is talking to the Gentiles in Corinthians. A well known, immature church. But the Corinthians immaturity does not nullify the truth that the Holy Spirit was speaking through Paul. 1Co 12:2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led. It is clear that he is talking to Gentiles. 1Co 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. 1Co 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 1Co 12:5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. 1Co 12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. 1Co 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 1Co 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 1Co 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 1Co 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 1Co 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. As Paul is talking to the Gentile believers of Corinth, notice that he does not preface it with, "I am going to talk about some things, but I want you to know that these are only for the Apostles". No, he did not say this, so they assumed he was talking to them about what our one God, one Spirit distributes to every man. It's pretty plain and easy to understand. You can explain it away (cut it out of the Bible), but that does not nullify the truth of God's Word. I do not believe that miracles working in someone's life validates them as a true Believer. Jesus said, "These things will follow them that believe", He did not say, "These things will confirm and validate my children". With all this said, there is no substitute for fruit. But, this is still not an argument for cutting out portions of God’s Word. Matt 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Matt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. And I agree with Mary, it is all according to God's will not ours. Anyway, signing off for the weekend. Have a blessed weekend. Rick Jer 12:5 If thou hast run with the footmen, and they have wearied thee, then how canst thou contend with horses? and if in the land of peace, wherein thou trustedst, they wearied thee, then how wilt thou do in the swelling of Jordan?
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12-05-2009, 12:58 PM
Post: #25
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RE: Miracles, Signs & Wonders, Giftings & Anointings, Deliverances, Demonology, Etc.
All flesh receive the Holy Spirit that believe Christ, but not all flesh are given the same gifts of the Holy Spiirt. We have stated that quite clearly. Of course the Holy Spirit was promised to all flesh, but a clear statement was made to Israel that "your sons and your daughters" would dream dreams, etc.
Why is the pronoun of "your" in this case not important to you Rick? Before, you said that when Jesus was talking He didnt say YOU when He was speaking to the eleven apostles--he said "they"....but now you ignore the distinction given by God in that prophesy and all the verses which reference the apostles being the eyeswitnesses and having their words confirmed with signs and wonders following that preaching of Christ. Cornelius receiving the Holy Spirit was showing that it was by the power of God---not the apostles that someone comes to Christ. And notice Corenelius did not babble incoherent words--but clearly proclaimed Christ and was understood in whatever language he was given to speak. And his public receiving of the Holy Spirit, was proof that salvation was not just for the Jews, but for any who would come to Christ. The apostles' witness of the preaching of the gospel was followed by signs and wonders---confirming their witness as being of God and the Truth about Jesus Christ--just as the many verses given show. They were specifically commissioned by God as THE eyewitnesses who walked with Christ. Not everyone who comes to Christ receives the same jobs or 'giftings' to do those jobs. Thats what is being discussed in Corinthians. 1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. 1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? 1Co 12:30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? 1Co 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 1Co 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 1Co 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 1Co 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 1Co 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. 1Co 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. Does it not say-that not all are apostles? not all receive the same gifts from the Holy Spirit? If you had read what we have stated in these posts and in other threads you know we are saying all receive the Holy Spirit---a promised gift for ALL BELIEVERS. BUT not all receive the same giftings to do HIS WILL. According to the Scriptures. So the question again is--do the signs and wonders that followed the apostles and Christ---follow you Rick? Can you be an apostle Rick? Do the things they did? Do you raise the dead, have your shadow cross over someone and they are healed, feed more than 5000 with a loaf of bread, heal terminally ill people because you see their need? Can anyone today be an apostle? Vic SeekGod.ca 3John 1:4 I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth. Isaiah 40:31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint. |
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12-05-2009, 01:04 PM
(This post was last modified: 12-05-2009 01:33 PM by heb13-13.)
Post: #26
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RE: Miracles, Signs & Wonders, Giftings & Anointings, Deliverances, Demonology, Etc.
(12-05-2009 12:58 PM)Vic Wrote: So the question again is--do the signs and wonders that followed the apostles and Christ---follow you Rick? Different giftings yes, but Paul is saying that Believers are gifted. Different giftings and different callings is what the Word says. All are not gifted or called in the same way. I have not operated in giftings of miracles or healings but does that negate the scriptures? My shadow is good for blocking the sun and reading a book, but does that negate the Word? That does not stop me from praying for people and I don't discouraged and say God's Word is not true if someone does not get healed. Is Paul just speaking to Apostles here? Are these Elders, Apostles only. If yes, how do you know. Tell us. Jas 5:13 Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms. Jas 5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: Jas 5:15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. I would not share any of my other experiences with you because you prove time and again in this forum that you trample on pearls. So, let's just stick to what the Word says. You seem to keep reasoning away the Scriptures that are presented to you. (12-05-2009 12:58 PM)Vic Wrote: All flesh receive the Holy Spirit that believe Christ, but not all flesh are given the same gifts of the Holy Spirt. We have stated that quite clearly. Of course the Holy Spirit was promised to all flesh, but a clear statement was made to Israel that "your sons and your daughters" would dream dreams, etc. Jer 12:5 If thou hast run with the footmen, and they have wearied thee, then how canst thou contend with horses? and if in the land of peace, wherein thou trustedst, they wearied thee, then how wilt thou do in the swelling of Jordan?
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12-05-2009, 05:50 PM
(This post was last modified: 12-05-2009 06:09 PM by sheep wrecked.)
Post: #27
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RE: Miracles, Signs & Wonders, Giftings & Anointings, Deliverances, Demonology, Etc.
(12-05-2009 01:04 PM)heb13-13 Wrote: Different giftings yes, but Paul is saying that Believers are gifted. Different giftings and different callings is what the Word says. All are not gifted or called in the same way. Hold the presses - put on the brakes  Things are getting out of hand at this point  I am SO sure you are not really saying that you are casting pearls before swine?  It could definitely be considered a personal insult  Not a good idea  Things are getting a bit off topic. This thread is about signs and wonders and the application of "miracle worker", not the intended receiver. Yes Cornelius received tongues - in the presence of Peter, who was an apostle. Getting back to the basics - if you are going to prove that believers have the gifts, then there has to be evidence of it. If historical records show none from the first century until the 1800s, through unclean hands - which was "imparted" and passed along until today - then we can clearly see there are no "giftings" in signs and wonders today from God. Secondly, you need to prove through scripture that "all" believers operated in signs and wonders. It's not there. Every reference is to those who are apostles or who THEY laid hands on. There is no evidence that other believers were chosen to do the same. It is shown in the book of Acts particularly, that the apostles were chosen to have the authority or else there would be pandemonium - which is what is happening today. It's a complete confusing disjointed three ring circus. You cannot force something that is not there. The only "giftings" being "manifested" today are in the charismatic/faith movement or people affiliated with it. Signs and wonders are NOT following believers today not associated with them, so there is something very wrong with the picture proponents are painting. It is an allusion. Jesus and Paul both told us that signs and wonders at the end of the age would be of satan. Interesting that you brought up elders. It is not the elders who are laying hands on people, rebuking demons of sickness, and blabbing gibberish over people and commanding healing in today's movement. It's whoever thinks they have been "anointed" to do so. Nor does James say anything about signs and wonders - miraculous healings and raising people from the dead. Do you really believe that every single person who is anointed with oil and prayed over by the elders is healed? What about Paul, Timothy, and Trophimus? Why wasn't Dorcas healed and then died? Why were apostles sent for to lay hands on to receive the Holy Spirit when there were believers present? The concept of "every man" in 1 Cor 12 is referring to every man that is chosen as the Holy Spirit wills, not every single believer. Please show how Joel 2 is not referring to Israel, when it's stated in the text. Who is the prophecy to? Israelites aka Jews - not gentiles. The witness of the Gospel came through the JEWS, not the gentiles. Peter stated that the prophecy was fulfilled in Christ and in the apostles, who were Jews. Peter even addresses the Jews in his "sermon" in Acts 2. He is preaching to the Jews, not to gentiles. Look at Acts 1 - Jesus stated clearly that the apostles were to go to the Jews FIRST, then the gentiles. |
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12-05-2009, 06:21 PM
(This post was last modified: 12-05-2009 06:31 PM by YYZ Skinhead.)
Post: #28
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RE: Miracles, Signs & Wonders, Giftings & Anointings, Deliverances, Demonology, Etc.
(12-05-2009 05:50 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote: Hold the presses - put on the brakesThat was the first thing I thought when I saw that phrase. Pardon if that wasn't the intent of the original author. HOSTIS HVMANI GENERIS ![[Image: 2vtwd1i.jpg]](http://i46.tinypic.com/2vtwd1i.jpg) VISUALIZE WORLD WAR |
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12-06-2009, 12:43 AM
Post: #29
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RE: Miracles, Signs & Wonders, Giftings & Anointings, Deliverances, Demonology, Etc.
(12-05-2009 06:21 PM)YYZ Skinhead Wrote:(12-05-2009 05:50 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote: Hold the presses - put on the brakesThat was the first thing I thought when I saw that phrase. Pardon if that wasn't the intent of the original author. It does not mean that I am calling you SWINE, it is a figure of speech that means you will not appreciate what I say. You know very well that this is a figure of speech with an underlying and well known meaning. You should be insulted that I don't trust you enough to share some things with you. On the contrary, I hold you in high esteem and thought I had found likeminded believers. Well, we are likeminded in many ways, but there are obviously some things that we disagree on. However much I appreciate SeekGod.ca and all your good work that you do, you are still not the SNOPES of God's Word, nor do you know all that goes on in this world since the Early Church. Neither am I (snopes) and neither do I (know everything in this world). I would however, love to share some experiences with you that I have had with members of the Body of Christ in other countries, such as Nepal and India and Hong Kong, but I find it difficult to trust you because of your beliefs/lack of beliefs and subsequent "trampling". The Holy Spirit and the Apostles were very good at pointing men to Christ. One God, one Lord and one Spirit that gives gifts liberally to every man as He wills, is what the scripture says. I imagine you being in the early Church making idols out of the Apostles just like people are making idols out of "special" "superstar" Christians, today. And that is the problem today with people wanting to follow these "Superstar" Christians that supposedly have a ministry of healing and miracles and yet it is nothing but flesh (and demons in most cases). According to your beliefs, Cornelius would be telling other Gentiles Christians that because he was in an Apostle's presence, he was given certain giftings. And then everyone would want to make sure they were at the next conference that Paul or Peter were at so they could get some of these gifts, too. Or they would set up a succession of elders down through the centuries and make sure before Peter died that he would lay hands on someone and then when that someone was about to die that he would lay hands on someone else and impart gifts. On and on, down through the centuries. Wait, there is an organization that already believes that. What was the giftings of the Holy Spirit to all men, has now become the giftings of a few chosen, special men and whoever they laid hands on. You guys don't realize it, but you rail at how Christianity today is making things man-centered (and rightly so) and yet, your teachings are making Christianity in the New Testament man-centered. And that is precisely why the Scriptures via the Holy Spirit teaches that "in My Name will they do this and that", and "one God, one Lord and one Spirit, gives liberally to every man as He wills". The Scriptures point to the God as the gift giver and not to the Apostles. Did God stop? No, not according to the Scriptures and experiences around the world through the centuries. But according to you these things stopped when the Apostles died and when whoever the last men and women whom they laid hands on died. You are blind and don't see how you have made Christianity in the NT man-centered by these beliefs. Dependent on "special" men (Apostles and whoever they laid hands on". and not God. The Holy Spirit and the Apostles were continuously pointing out the fact that they had no power to do any of these things and pointing men to Christ. I think you must live in a very small world if you think that God is not doing great things in this world and I am not just talking salvation. The Charismatic movement by and large is a great deception full of people with familiar spirits that are ignorant of God's Word. They are full of false teachings. Today, there is an onslaught of teaching spirits that have been released and Satan needs a few "GOOD" men in which to float his lies. He brings discredit and mockings and unbelief upon the true works of the Lord through all of the false signs and wonders. There is a difference between false teachers and deceived ones. There are many deceived ones among the most devoted teachers today. They do not recognize that an army of teaching spirits have come forth to deceive the people of God. Especially to those in the "spiritual" section of the church who are enamored with the supernatural realm from where the deceiving spirits whisper their lies to all that are "spiritual". i.e. open to spiritual things. The teaching spirits with "doctrines" will go to great lengths to deceive those who are in positions to transmit "doctrine" and they will seek to mingle their "teachings" with truth, with the end result that they are accepted. Every believer must test every teacher today for themselves by the Word of God and the attitude of these teachers to the atoning Cross of Christ and other fundamental truths of the gospel and not be misled into testing "teaching" by the character of the teacher. 1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; 1Ti 4:3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. Deception has to do with the mind and it means a wrong thought admitted to the mind under the deception that it is truth. Deception is based on ignorance and not moral character. Therefore, a "true" and "faithful" Christian is liable to be deceived by the devil simply because of his ignorance. Because of this we all need to recognize that we can be deceived and we must remain teachable and humble. The Holy Spirit, in these verses in 1 Tim 4, given by Paul, describes the character and work of the evil spirits, recognizing their existence and their efforts directed towards believers, to deceive them and by deception to draw them away from the path of simple faith in Christ and all that is included in the "faith once for all delivered unto the saints". (Jude 3). I cannot over-emphasize that this can happen to any of us over and over, again. It probably has happened to all of us. The Christian life is a continual struggle and fight to seek out and follow Christ who is Truth. Today, people are so taken by the supernatural that they think anything supernatural validates a man or woman as of God. Therefore, deception is very strong today. But none of the false signs and wonders and they are many or the false prophets and apostles and they are many, too, are going to stop the power of God today in the world. How I would love to share some things with you, especially about a Sister in the Lord, in Hong Kong. The things that the Lord has graciously allowed me to know about are outside of this foolish charismatic world of pretend. You won't be convinced by experiences though. This is not an intellectual pursuit but spiritual warfare. In some ways you have made the Word so technical that you have complicated it and explained away very simple things. You ask people today whether they have cleared out hospitals full of sick people, yet you know full well that none of the Apostles went around healing everyone that was sick. None of them had a "healing" ministry to speak of where they set up appointments to heal all the lepers in the leper colony. You know this and yet you sneeringly ask people if they are emptying out hospitals knowing that the Apostles did not do this. Interesting, that the Spirit of God did not lead the Apostles to do this. And, He does not lead people to do this today. He did not lead the Apostles to have big healing conventions and I don't believe He does this today, where the emphasis primarily is on physical healing. Now, if people are going to say they have a "HEALING" ministry, then I would expect them to set up appointments and heal all that are sick. But no, they don't do this, they have big "Christian" tent meetings in Convention Centers and they tell all the local churches to come. Instead of going out and preaching the Gospel and healing the unbelievers it always seems it is a big "church" thing. And this proves to me that they don't have a so-called healing ministry. I guess that is why you sneer at them and they probably deserve it. God's healing power is not for show, but they want to make a big production of it. I have been online now far too long and must retire for the night but one last word. The thought that our God will protect His children from being deceived if they are true and faithful is in itself a deception. God does not make up for our ignorance when He has provided knowledge for us to keep us from being deceived. Rick Jer 12:5 If thou hast run with the footmen, and they have wearied thee, then how canst thou contend with horses? and if in the land of peace, wherein thou trustedst, they wearied thee, then how wilt thou do in the swelling of Jordan?
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12-08-2009, 09:11 AM
Post: #30
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RE: Miracles, Signs & Wonders, Giftings & Anointings, Deliverances, Demonology, Etc.
sheep wrecked Wrote:
Quote: barley: Barley quote Your correct He didn’t imply it He came out right and said it, remember what He said in John 14 12 I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. ……………………………. Sheep quote So why aren't you? Why have you not fed 5000 with a few loaves of bread and fishes? Why have you not raised the dead? Why are there not 100s of people healed that you have laid hands on? When is the last time you stilled a storm? The least you could have done was averted the hurricanes, tornadoes, and tsunamis that took so many lives and ruined so many people's homes and cities in the last few years. Shame on you! ………………………. I never thought of a sheep being angry before but I guess you are. Who are you angry at ? Yourself or God? You got a personal grudge with God leave me out of it, take it to Him, He can heal a wounded Sheep. ………………………. Quote:barley: The problem is not with Scripture but that you don’t understand what it means to pray in Jesus name. People fail in their prayers because they do not humble themselves and ask the Holy Spirit how they should pray. ……………………… Quote Sheep As you seem to be a fan of taking Scripture literally, do know of anyone that has received all they have asked in Jesus' Name? How do you know you are praying the will of God in order to get everything you ask for? I am not familiar with the Scripture that states: "humble themselves and ask the Holy Spirit how they should pray" - could you provide a reference for that? thanx! ………………………………. Question 1…………..Yes many people #2…………You question would make sense if you said how do you know the will of God so that you may pray accordingly. # 3 the Scripture is the Bible …………odd that you don’t know any verses in particular about this, but I’ll try and help. Isa 57:15-16 15 For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones. 16 For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: for the spirit should fail before me, and the souls which I have made. (KJV) Prov 29:22-23 22 An angry man stirreth up strife, and a furious man aboundeth in transgression. 23 A man's pride shall bring him low: but honour shall uphold the humble in spirit. (KJV) Prov 16:18-19 18 Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall. 19 Better it is to be of an humble spirit with the lowly, than to divide the spoil with the proud. (KJV) Ps 10:17 17 LORD, thou hast heard the desire of the humble: thou wilt prepare their heart, thou wilt cause thine ear to hear: (KJV) 2 Chr 34:27 27 Because thine heart was tender, and thou didst humble thyself before God, when thou heardest his words against this place, and against the inhabitants thereof, and humbledst thyself before me, and didst rend thy clothes, and weep before me; I have even heard thee also, saith the LORD. (KJV) 2 Chr 7:14-15 14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land. 15 Now mine eyes shall be open, and mine ears attent unto the prayer that is made in this place. (KJV) Rom 8:26-27 26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. 27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God's will. (NIV) James 4:2-11 2 Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not. 3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts. 4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God. 5 Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy? 6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble. 7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. 8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded. 9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness. 10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up. 11 Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge. (KJV) ………………………………………… Quote:barley: Even if we get His will right we will mess up in the timing. ………………………….. Quote sheep So even if we pray according to His will, then it really doesn't matter because we will mess it up anyway? Wow - it's a wonder that God is incapable of doing anything in our lives unless we pray right and at the right time ………………………………………………….. Yah we will mess it up when we walk in our pride and arrogance, thinking we have the smarts to simply read the Bible and then tell God what to do. If we don’t Have His Spirit living within us and listen to what He says then we are simply fools thinking we are wise. |
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