Can we lose Salvation?

[Rose of Shushan]

Joh 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
Joh 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
Joh 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
Joh 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
Joh 15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
Joh 15:9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Jesus here was speaking to his disciples primarily.So we see that they too could be cast forth withered and burnt(figuratively).
These branches in the metaphor are believers, otherwise they wouldnt be on the vine(Jesus).Yet there is a possibility that they can be burnt.And burnt seems very definitely not saved wouldnt you say.Once burnt it converts to ash and you cannot graft ash back onto a tree.

[sheep wrecked]

(01-28-2010 11:50 PM)Scotchman Wrote:  

Quote:What if we say that God sees through the tunnel of time and knows who will choose Him or not

As Mentioned before, Jesus told us the He Choose us and We did not Choose Him.

If we did it like the tunnel then he chooses us BECAUSE we choose Him.

The Scriptures show us that God Loved the WHOLE WORLD. ALL were chosen to believe, but free will demands that we believe on Him, as I showed you from John 3.

Quote:that is not what Jesus said though. Eph 2:8-9 agree with Jesus in that we are Saved Because He freely saved us per the same in Romans 9.

Yes, Jesus freely saves us. When He died, He died for ALL. His salvation is for ALL, not some. That is why we must choose Him. This is new covenant theology versus old covenant fact, that by obedience the whole nation of Israel would be saved, not individually. Jesus died once and for ALL, that by the free gift of grace through faith, all might come to Him.

Quote:you r quote from Revelation is well know to be taken from the Vulgate and that many Greek scripts say "Take your part from the Tree of Life". This appears then to referring to a loss of rewards not Salvation.

The Vulgate is an early 5th-century Latin version of the Bible and largely the result of the labors of Jerome. He translated the NT from the Greek which predates the Latin. We have 5,000 manuscripts to compare and the KJV has been proven to be correct

The original Greek:

(IGNT) και 2532[AND] εαν 1437[IF] τις 5100[ANYONE] αφαιρη 851(5725)[SHOULD TAKE] απο 575[FROM] των 3588[THE] λογων 3056[WORDS] βιβλου 976[OF "THE" BOOK] της 3588 προφητειας 4394 ταυτης 3778[OF THIS PROPHECY,] αφαιρησει 851(5692) ο 3588[SHALL TAKE SWAY] θεος 2316[GOD] το 3588 μερος 3313 αυτου 846[HIS PART] απο 575[FROM "THE"] βιβλου 976 της 3588[BOOK] ζωης 2222[OF LIFE,] και 2532[AND] εκ 1537[OUT OF] της 3588[THE] πολεως 4172 της 3588[CITY] αγιας 40[HOLY,] και 2532[AND] των 3588[OF THOSE WHO] γεγραμμενων 1125(5772)[ARE WRITTEN] εν 1722[IN] βιβλιω 975[BOOK] τουτω 5129

Quote:Jesus promises to not lose a single Sheep.

Correct, for those that remain in Him.

Again, I direct you to John 15


Joh 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
Joh 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
Joh 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Heb 6:7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
Heb 6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

Quote:And as I DID say above in answer to your question, A Good Tree Can Not bear bad fruit. So a Saved person will not die unsaved.

An evil tree was never Christ's to begin with - an entirely different person altogether. If you look at the context, Jesus is stating that we can judge who believes in Him and who does not - by the fruit.


Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Quote:Also, If I am Saved from the foundation of the Earth then to be Born Again means Eternal and that our Eternity started Before Time began.

How can one lose their Salvation if it was sealed before they were born?

I would need to see what Scriptures you are using to support this. Thanx

Quote:If the Holy Spirit is a seal and Promise of our Future Resurrection until Eternal Life... Then to have the Holy Spirit is to be Eternally Saved.

One is not sealed until they are saved and born again by the Holy Spirit.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Quote:Most People are really not asking the right Question. What they are really asking is whether a real Christian can live in Sin and Still be saved.

Scripture tells us that those who live wickedly are Damned.

That again is a different topic. But I would agree that many would prefer to believe in osas so that they do not have to live for the Lord, or do just enough [from their perspective] to qualify for eternal life.

Quote:A real Born-Again person CAN NOT live in rebellion against God.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Quote:John says in his Epistles that such a person is not Saved!

It would be helpful if you would provide the text because John also states that one who does not love his brother does not belong to God and that statement was made to believers [the whole book of 1 John]

Quote:So, A Saved person is forever Saved and one who lives in Sin is not Saved!

Do you sin?

Quote:I hve posted all relevant Scriptures to this novel above.

I am not irritated but I do not think any more can be said.

Unless you have a new question?

You have not answered many of the questions put to you, but I keep trying

Quote:BTW: You can use the term Calvinistic, I have. But I am really only interested in what Scripture as a whole Teaches.

Calvinism teaches that only those who are predestined are saved. I don't believe the Bible actually teaches this - based on the Scriptures as a whole.

Quote:What does Jesus, as the Word of God made Flesh, Tell us in the Written Word - as revealed by the Holy Spirit!

If you believe that Jesus is the Word of God made flesh, then certainly you can see that the Parable of the Sower is speaking of salvation

[Scotchman]

OVERLOAD PROTECTION -- SERVANT HALTED

Sorry, I got overwhelmed with so many questions at once.

OK, I can answer alot at once but please, one question or point at a time. If I miss something, ask again later. I am not trying to avoi but 10 questions can over whelm.

Interpretation of Scripture is based upon how literal or plain-text you read it and whether you have predisposed ideas.

Let us stand back a little.

---

OK I will try again. Maybe I needed coffee this early.

(03-02-2009 12:47 PM)milordsheep Wrote:  I will try to ask questions without hand grenades.

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I believe while our Salvation cannot be taken away...it can be thrown away.

I believe that the Scriptures teach neither. Otherwise it makes Man Sovereign.

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(01-29-2010 12:22 AM)Rose of Shushan Wrote:  You missed some crucial words there in that last Scripture which are " if ye continue in my word".
As Paul said somewhere else we have to continue to run the race.

1Co 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.

Not really. the difference is this. If you treat the "continuing" as a Fruit, then it teaches Eternal Security. If you treat the "Continuing" as a WORK, then one is teaching" arminianism. But Ephesians 2:8-9 as tells us that it is by grace. 1John tells us this continuing or Overcoming is a fruit we display as a result of JESUS' WORK!

The Entire topic is based upon whether one interprets the verses as Man Centered, by Works; or whether it is read as Christ Sovereign and His Work!

terms used here are for reference only, not invention!

A Sovereign God viewpoint leads to OSAS and calvinism
A Sovereign Man viewpoint leads to so-called Freewill and Arminianism

In Truth, We do have Free-Will but only AFTER we are saved!

You can not choose your salvation, only what you do with it.

JESUS finishes our Faith, not we ourselves.

Hebrews 12:2 * Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

And notice here that our salvation is PAST TENSE and secure for eternity if we come to Christ.

John 5:24 * Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life


And Jesus tells us that if you come to Him in Faith, it is becauuse you were already called by the Father.

John 14:6 * Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me

John 6:44 * No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day

Do not confuse verses about losing a mental belief in Jesus or lack of following as losing Salvation. What those verses mean is that some people TRY JESUS from their own flesh. One will never survive trying to believe on Jesus from the Flesh. That person will be choked by the cares or wither without root.

Only those who have been truly planted/converted and follow Christ from the Spirit shall live.

Romans 8:13 * For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live

[sheep wrecked]

(01-29-2010 08:46 AM)Scotchman Wrote:  OVERLOAD PROTECTION -- SERVANT HALTED

Sorry, I got overwhelmed with so many questions at once.

OK, I can answer alot at once but please, one question or point at a time. If I miss something, ask again later. I am not trying to avoi but 10 questions can over whelm.

Interpretation of Scripture is based upon how literal or plain-text you read it and whether you have predisposed ideas.

Let us stand back a little.

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OK I will try again. Maybe I needed coffee this early.

(03-02-2009 12:47 PM)milordsheep Wrote:  I will try to ask questions without hand grenades.

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I believe while our Salvation cannot be taken away...it can be thrown away.

I believe that the Scriptures teach neither. Otherwise it makes Man Sovereign.

---

(01-29-2010 12:22 AM)Rose of Shushan Wrote:  You missed some crucial words there in that last Scripture which are " if ye continue in my word".
As Paul said somewhere else we have to continue to run the race.

1Co 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.

Not really. the difference is this. If you treat the "continuing" as a Fruit, then it teaches Eternal Security. If you treat the "Continuing" as a WORK, then one is teaching" arminianism. But Ephesians 2:8-9 as tells us that it is by grace. 1John tells us this continuing or Overcoming is a fruit we display as a result of JESUS' WORK!

The Entire topic is based upon whether one interprets the verses as Man Centered, by Works; or whether it is read as Christ Sovereign and His Work!

terms used here are for reference only, not invention!

A Sovereign God viewpoint leads to OSAS and calvinism
A Sovereign Man viewpoint leads to so-called Freewill and Arminianism

In Truth, We do have Free-Will but only AFTER we are saved!

You can not choose your salvation, only what you do with it.

JESUS finishes our Faith, not we ourselves.

Hebrews 12:2 * Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

And notice here that our salvation is PAST TENSE and secure for eternity if we come to Christ.

John 5:24 * Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life


And Jesus tells us that if you come to Him in Faith, it is becauuse you were already called by the Father.

John 14:6 * Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me

John 6:44 * No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day

Do not confuse verses about losing a mental belief in Jesus or lack of following as losing Salvation. What those verses mean is that some people TRY JESUS from their own flesh. One will never survive trying to believe on Jesus from the Flesh. That person will be choked by the cares or wither without root.

Only those who have been truly planted/converted and follow Christ from the Spirit shall live.

Romans 8:13 * For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live

Philip,

You are kinda bogging down the discussion. Instead of responding to the Scripts I posted, you are introducing new material, which you have been doing all along. That, according to forum etiquette is, spamming. You really need to address the Scripts that refute your position, and the questions put to you.

Let's start with Luke:

Luk 8:13 They on the rock [are they], which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe [G4100] , and in time of temptation fall away.

G4100
πιστεύω
pisteuō
Thayer Definition:
1) to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in
1a) of the thing believed
1a1) to credit, have confidence
1b) in a moral or religious reference
1b1) used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul
1b2) to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith
2) to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity
2a) to be intrusted with a thing

The word "believe" [G4100] is the same word "believe" that is used in John 3:16. The Sower, the Word, the Seed, is Jesus Christ.

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

[Scotchman]

(01-29-2010 04:54 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote:  You are kinda bogging down the discussion. Instead of responding to the Scripts I posted, you are introducing new material, which you have been doing all along. That, according to forum etiquette is, spamming. You really need to address the Scripts that refute your position, and the questions put to you.

I Have been answering the points. Quite thoroughly. the problem is thhat you and I disagree. The scriptures I posted DID refute and answer the points contended.

If they are not appreciated, I will leave the discussion. I have made the case. NO, You can not losse salvation if you are truly saved!

What you misunderstood was my lengthy explanation of WHY!

that is not spam but thorough expository preaching line by line.

This is a topic which people have gotten very passionate over. People either take the Scriptures at face value or not. We can not make any christian believe anything. THAT is their freewill!

Have a blessed weekend.

[Mary]

Hi Scotchman,

do I understand correctly that you believe that God has chosen some people to be His sheep and others to be wolves?

If so, what does this mean: "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance"? 2 Peter 3 vs 9

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and furthermore, what does this mean:

"And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation;" (2 Peter 3 vs 15).

[Mary]

(01-31-2010 05:44 PM)Mary Wrote:  Hi Scotchman,

do I understand correctly that you believe that God has chosen some people to be His sheep and others to be wolves?

If so, what does this mean: "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance"? 2 Peter 3 vs 9

---

and furthermore, what does this mean:

"And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation;" (2 Peter 3 vs 15).

In my busyness of my last week it slipped my mind that I'd asked Scotchman this... does anyone else have any comments/response?

[a pilgrim]

(02-09-2010 07:01 AM)Mary Wrote:  

(01-31-2010 05:44 PM)Mary Wrote:  Hi Scotchman,

do I understand correctly that you believe that God has chosen some people to be His sheep and others to be wolves?

If so, what does this mean: "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance"? 2 Peter 3 vs 9

---

and furthermore, what does this mean:

"And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation;" (2 Peter 3 vs 15).

In my busyness of my last week it slipped my mind that I'd asked Scotchman this... does anyone else have any comments/response?

Of course, to say some are chosen for heaven and some for hell is classic Calvinism. I was trained under typical middle of the road Baptist doctrine and knew no other till I began fellowshipping with believers of other persuassions about 10 years ago. Typically, most are either Calvinist or Arminian and CANNOT reconcile the two. Over the last 10 years I have tried to wrestle the doctrine of salavtion out of those two camps and set it free (in my mind.)

Consider, long before the Reformers, long before Calvin, Arminus, Luther, Zwingli, or Augustine himself, was the early church. She was pure, she was the recent decendant of the Apostles themselves who sat at the feet of Jesus. These are they who said:

1Jn 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
1Jn 1:2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)
1Jn 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

So these men had the pure stuff. Their doctrine was simple and yet pure. They had salvation, yet they did not have books of intricate systematic theology. They had something better...they had Christ. With Augustine came systematic theology. He, in time, passed that to the Reformers, who split left and right, into what we now call Calvinism and Arminianism. But what did those early men have? Again, they had Christ and his simple and pure realities.

I would call this the capstone of early salvation theology:

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

So let's ask our question that openned this discussion: Can we lose salvation? Jesus said, my sheep (posession,) hear my voice (communication,) and I know them (relationship,) and they follow me (reality made manifest in a walk.)

The question is not can I lose it, it is do you have it. Because, ultimately, if one makes a "profession," and is found walking in Christ when he/she is called home, they have eternal life. However, if someone makes a profession and they depart from it, never to repent or turn again to Christ, did they ever have the real thing? Before you jump to your pet theology just go to the simple formula Christ gave, namely:

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

We need to go back to a simple quest of being found in Him. I have seen brethren (or at least they proclaimed to be!) at each others throats over this very topic. Yikes! What about some of Jesus' other simple acid test verses, like:

Joh 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

So I ask, if we hate each other, are we his disciples? Sure, we can be his disciples indeed and hate each other...can't we?

1Jn 2:7 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.
1Jn 2:8 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.
1Jn 2:9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
1Jn 2:10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
1Jn 2:11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.

Now, again, don't let your theology run away with you, take that scripture at face value. Shocking, aye? According to the Apostle, if you hate your brother, you are yet in darkness. But, I can hear one cry out, "I have been saved, I have said a prayer, I am a Sunday School teacher, I am a preacher!" etc. ad nauseum, the list goes on. Brethren, the Apostle made it clear. So, if we are sheep, then let's repent and act like one, if we do not, then our fruit points otherwise. Only time will determine whether we were the sheep or goat.

This and other themes like:

1Jn 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
1Jn 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
1Jn 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

Some will say, "Well, worldly Christians are just disobedient, but still saved, right?" That is not what the Apostle said. He said they pass away with the very corruption of the world and it's deeds.

When I learned how to win souls in an eternal security Baptist church, we used to use this verse all the time:

1Jn 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

I was told, this was the end all verse proving unconditional eternal security. But is that what this verse is teaching? Look again. The Apostle is saying, these things, these things that I talked about, like loving your brother, and hating the world, THESE THINGS have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life!

Can I lose it? I guess, I'd say, we'll see. You might lose YOUR salvation, but the real thing that Jesus gave his sheep will last to eternity. But, it is not some manmade monstrocity like we have in most eternal security churches today, real salvation is a fruitbearing tree. If someone made a profession 47 years ago and they are and have been as dry as last years birds nest, they can claim all the salvation they want, but as the old timers say, "The proofs in the puddin!"

Are we looking to Jesus, not only for our initial justification, but our daily sanctification and walk? This is reality.

John15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Bro. Ben

[sheep wrecked]

Ben!

That was awesome!!!

[Vic]

Just excellent Ben. It's part of the reason I hate some topics getting started on the forum, because of the horrible attitudes and the total dependence on manmade beliefs over the Word of God.

The Holy Spirit is supposed to teach us and we are to be seeking His understanding--from the Word. Scripture interprets Scripture, but people have this thing that someone has to have figured it all out for them aside from the Scriptures.

I also reject the notion of the two belief systems you mentioned and another poster recently mentioned, that all believers are either Calvinist or arminianist. I didn't even know that those beliefs systems existed until getting on the net after a few years. I still can't tell you what it all means.

To me we are to see through the lens of the mind of Christ as the Holy Spirit gives understanding--not some persons opinion of the Scriptures elevated to being Scripture itself.

I love the verses you quoted, especially, John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

To me that is the essence of a life living for Christ. It's not about us, it's about Him.

I can't remember if I posted this in before, but this is from my website FAQS. But I thought because it so paralleled your statements it is worth another read. http://www.SeekGod.ca/faqs.htm


Q. What are your views on 'Once Saved, Always Saved'?

A. That too often the wrong questions are being asked, and people argue and debate erroneously. There's an old saying which states that he who asks the questions controls the outcome. Many are asking that question because they or someone they know is living to the flesh. They want assurance that if they say they confess Christ or have in the past, that they will still go to heaven regardless how they behave or what they do.

I prefer to ask, " why, if a person claims to love Jesus Christ, aren't they serving Him, and growing in grace and knowledge of Him? Jesus said if you love me, keep my commandments. He also said to pick up our cross daily or we are not worthy to serve Him."

The question that needs to be asked: Why are people sowing to the flesh and worried about whether they can still get into heaven? Rather than obeying the person of Jesus Christ, they are bringing dishonor to Him by making the claim they also love or live for Him or have in the past.

It's all very simple. It's about Christ. About serving Him. Loving Him. Obeying Him. It's not about sowing to the flesh. And in the end, Facing Christ will either be a joyous event or a shameful experience.

Galatians 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

Romans 6:6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

The reality of behavior for those who belong to Jesus Christ is answered by Christ Himself and His apostles:

John14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

*11 John 15:3-8
*14 Romans 6:19-23


*12 Matthew 10:32,33,38
*15 Romans 8:1-17


*13 1 John 2:28
*16 2 Corinthians 5:16-21


I suppose in the end, the question is...can someone who claims to know Christ deliberately and knowingly enter into the the things of the flesh and have fruit that shows their condition as being not of Christ...can that person actually belong to Christ in the first place?

2 Corinthians 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

2 Peter 2:17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Many Scriptures come to mind. While we at times will be tested and put through all manner of trials, some of which we will fail and some we will walk in faith and trust. In the end, God knows who are His. That's what really matters.

We're to be about our Lord's business, not wondering what we can get away with and still 'be saved'.

John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.