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Virgin Birth or Son of Joseph?
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10-26-2010, 04:05 PM
Post: #11
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RE: Virgin Birth or Son of Joseph?
Hi Sari
I am sorry that you seem to be going through a bit of a faith crisis with all these questions. Although you said you are studying on your own the issue of the virgin birth it seems as though you have stumbled onto an anti-missionary website and this is leading you to question all these various things. They are all the typical points made in anti missionary websites. Questioning is good of course but there are some things that aren't really a problem for believers as we are not going to be able to prove all doubts 100 percent this side of eternity. Nevertheless as these issues seem to be causing you doubts it is good that we discuss them. You made many points there and as I am having a really busy week ,I will try to join in the discussion of the various points as I get time. Quote:1. Why didn't any of the other NT books apart from Matthew & Luke record that Jesus was born of a virgin? On the contrary, many of Paul's writings affirm the humanity of Jesus. Why would they need to? Things in the Bible don't need to be mentioned in every single book for them to be true, do they? We also see that Jesus was fully human and also fully divine.Why does it have to be one or the other and not both? |
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10-26-2010, 04:56 PM
Post: #12
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RE: Virgin Birth or Son of Joseph?
Quote:2. Why is the geneology of Joseph recorded in the book of Matthew? The bloodline cannot be passed to a son by an adoptive father. It's an impossibility. What bloodline are you meaning? I don't understand what you mean. The genealogy of Joseph is relevant to us since he became the legal,so to speak, father of Jesus.The Gospel writer Matthew is careful however not to call Joseph the father of Jesus but the husband of Mary.Jesus is always referred to as Mary's son and as we see in Mat1:25 it says her firstborn son not their. Mat 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ. Mat 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ happened this way: When his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found to be with child of the Holy Spirit. Mat 1:19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a public example, decided to put her away privately. Mat 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS. There are many many interesting things about the lineage of Joseph.One of these is the occurrence of the four women Ruth,Rahab,Tamar and Bathsheba. |
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10-26-2010, 05:10 PM
Post: #13
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RE: Virgin Birth or Son of Joseph?
Quote:4. If Jesus' birth was a fulfillment of Isaiah 7:14, why wasn't Jesus named Immanuel? In the rest of the Matthew passage.It reads Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and you shall call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. Mat 1:22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. We see there that Matthew says that Jesus birth was the fulfillment of the Isaiah verse.So it is the Scriptures that are attributing the Isaiah verse to Jesus not just christians in general.Immanu el means literally with us(immanu), El, God. It doesnt necesarily follow that that would be the child's name but that it was what he would be called. So in the Isaiah verse we see that it says that the child would be called God with us.Isnt that what Jesus is? God dwelling with man. Both physically,as He did 2000 years ago and spiritually as he said He and the Father would come and make their abode within us. 1Jn 4:12 No man has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwells in us, and his love is perfected in us. 1Jn 4:13 By this we know that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit. 1Jn 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world. 1Jn 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwells in him, and he in God. 1Jn 4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God has for us. God is love; and he that dwells in love dwells in God, and God in him. Joh 14:20 At that day you shall know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you. Joh 14:21 He that has my commandments, and keeps them, he it is that loves me: and he that loves me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. Joh 14:22 Judas said unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that you will manifest yourself unto us, and not unto the world? Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man loves me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. Joh 14:24 He that loves me not keeps not my sayings: and the word which you hear is not mine, but the Father's who sent me. |
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10-26-2010, 06:04 PM
(This post was last modified: 10-26-2010 07:51 PM by Rose of Shushan.)
Post: #14
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RE: Virgin Birth or Son of Joseph?
Quote:7. If there was dual-fulfillment of Isaiah 7:14, wouldn't this mean a virgin has conceived before? It actually was publically acknowledged and publicised which is why we know of this event today. We see from the NT that the event was acknowledged and publicised and that many Israelites did believe and accept Him even if the leadership didn't. There are various references in the NT where we see that Jesus was regarded primarily as Mary's son so the people did publically acknowledge that fact. Some have indeed proposed that the child spoken of might have been Isaiah's son but the problem I see there is that Isaiah's sons, who God said would be given to him as signs Isa 8:18 Behold, I and the children whom the LORD hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the LORD of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion. are mentioned by name in the Bible and they are Mahershalalhashbash and Shear-yashuv. I don't believe in dual fulfilments of prophecies.Prophecies are given and at some point fulfilled.Sometimes prophecies have spiritual fulfilments which are later fulfilled or may have elemnts of both that are fulfilled at different times.But I don't believe that prophecies are fulfilled twice. In the case we are talking about I see that the sign that God promised He would give the whole House of Israel Isa 7:13 And he said, Hear ye now, O house of David; Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will ye weary my God also? was to happen later and involved the whole House of Israel.In the next verse the you is in the plural (lachem) so its speaking to the house of David as a whole and not just to Ahaz. Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. Quote:5. Did Jesus eat butter and honey? In this verse which follows on from 14 where the childs's origins are miraculous and his nature seems to be divine or equal with God,it seems to point out to the humanity of Jesus where He would be like every other child eating normal food.The nature of this food being curds and honey tells us that this was simple food suited to times of poverty so it would mean that either Israel as a whole or the childs family would be in a state of poverty and not abundance. Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. Heb 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted. |
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10-26-2010, 06:28 PM
Post: #15
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RE: Virgin Birth or Son of Joseph?
Quote:6. Before Jesus learned to refuse evil and choose the good was the land forsaken of both her kings? In the following verse Isa 7:3 Then said the LORD unto Isaiah, Go forth now to meet Ahaz, thou, and Shearjashub thy son, at the end of the conduit of the upper pool in the highway of the fuller's field; we see that Isaiah had his son Shearyashuv with him. In verse 16 I believe that it referred to that child and not to the one in the prophecy. Shortly after that prophecy was given the two kings Pekah and Rezin were brought to naught. 2Ki 15:29 In the days of Pekah king of Israel came Tiglathpileser king of Assyria, and took Ijon, and Abelbethmaachah, and Janoah, and Kedesh, and Hazor, and Gilead, and Galilee, all the land of Naphtali, and carried them captive to Assyria. 2Ki 15:30 And Hoshea the son of Elah made a conspiracy against Pekah the son of Remaliah, and smote him, and slew him, and reigned in his stead, in the twentieth year of Jotham the son of Uzziah. and for Rezin 2Ki 16:9 And the king of Assyria hearkened unto him: for the king of Assyria went up against Damascus, and took it, and carried the people of it captive to Kir, and slew Rezin. |
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10-26-2010, 07:44 PM
Post: #16
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RE: Virgin Birth or Son of Joseph?
I just wanted to add a quick note on the birth of Isaiah's son. In chapter 7, God speaks of a virgin conceiving whose son would be called Emmanuel. But in chapter 8, Isaiah goes in with his wife and she conceives and the son's name is not "Immanuel", but Mahershalalhashbaz
H4122 מהר שׁלל חשׁ בּז mahêr shâlâl châsh baz BDB Definition: = Maher-shalal-hash-baz “swift is booty, speedy is prey” 1) symbolic name given by Isaiah by the Lord’s direction to Isaiah’s son; prophetic indication that Damascus and Samaria were soon to be plundered by the king of Assyria Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. Isa 8:1 Moreover the LORD said unto me, Take thee a great roll, and write in it with a man's pen concerning Mahershalalhashbaz. Isa 8:2 And I took unto me faithful witnesses to record, Uriah the priest, and Zechariah the son of Jeberechiah. Isa 8:3 And I went unto the prophetess; and she conceived, and bare a son. Then said the LORD to me, Call his name Mahershalalhashbaz. Isa 8:4 For before the child shall have knowledge to cry, My father, and my mother, the riches of Damascus and the spoil of Samaria shall be taken away before the king of Assyria. Isa 8:5 The LORD spake also unto me again, saying, Isa 8:6 Forasmuch as this people refuseth the waters of Shiloah that go softly, and rejoice in Rezin and Remaliah's son; Isa 8:7 Now therefore, behold, the Lord bringeth up upon them the waters of the river, strong and many, even the king of Assyria, and all his glory: and he shall come up over all his channels, and go over all his banks: Isa 8:8 And he shall pass through Judah; he shall overflow and go over, he shall reach even to the neck; and the stretching out of his wings shall fill the breadth of thy land, O Immanuel. Immanuel cannot be Isaiah's son. If one believes that the NT is the inspired Word of God, then when Matthew and Luke say that Jesus fulfilled this prophecy in Isaiah 7:14, then that is truth. Jesus said, reiterating the OT, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. Would you agree to that? |
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10-26-2010, 10:59 PM
(This post was last modified: 10-26-2010 11:30 PM by sari83.)
Post: #17
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RE: Virgin Birth or Son of Joseph?
There is only one witness. Matthew 1:23 is the only place in the NT that references the Isaiah 7:14 prophecy.
Vine's Expository Dictionary states that Immanuel is Isaiah's son. See the bold letters in the article below. VIRGIN `almah ^5959^, "virgin; maiden." This noun has an Ugaritic cognate, although the masculine form also appears in Aramaic, Syriac, and Arabic. The feminine form of the root appears 9 times; the only 2 appearances of the masculine form (`elem) are in First Samuel. This suggests that this word was used rarely, perhaps because other words bore a similar meaning. That `almah can mean "virgin" is quite clear in <Song of Sol. 6:8>: "There are threescore queens, and fourscore concubines, and virgins [NASB, "maidens"] without number." Thus all the women in the court are described. The word `almah represents those who are eligible for marriage but are neither wives (queens) nor concubines. These "virgins" all loved the king and longed to be chosen to be with him (to be his bride), even as did the Shulamite who became his bride <1:3-4>. In <Gen. 24:43> the word describes Rebekah, of whom it is said in <Gen. 24:16> that she was a "maiden" with whom no man had had relations. Solomon wrote that the process of wooing a woman was mysterious to him <Prov. 30:19>. Certainly in that day a man ordinarily wooed one whom he considered to be a "virgin." There are several contexts, therefore, in which a young girl's virginity is expressly in view. Thus `almah appears to be used more of the concept "virgin" than that of "maiden," yet always of a woman who had not borne a child. This makes it the ideal word to be used in <Isa. 7:14>, since the word betulah emphasizes virility more than virginity (although it is used with both emphases, too). The reader of <Isa. 7:14> in the days preceding the birth of Jesus would read that a "virgin who is a maiden" would conceive a child. This was a possible, but irregular, use of the word since the word can refer merely to the unmarried status of the one so described. The child immediately in view was the son of the prophet and his wife (cf. <Isa. 8:3>) who served as a sign to Ahaz that his enemies would be defeated by God. On the other hand, the reader of that day must have been extremely uncomfortable with this use of the word, since its primary connotation is "virgin" rather than "maiden." Thus the clear translation of the Greek in <Matt. 1:23> whereby this word is rendered "virgin" satisfies its fullest implication. Therefore, there was no embarrassment to Isaiah when his wife conceived a son by him, since the word `almah allowed for this. Neither is there any embarrassment in Matthew's understanding of the word. (from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words) (Copyright © 1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers) (10-26-2010 07:44 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote: I just wanted to add a quick note on the birth of Isaiah's son. In chapter 7, God speaks of a virgin conceiving whose son would be called Emmanuel. But in chapter 8, Isaiah goes in with his wife and she conceives and the son's name is not "Immanuel", but Mahershalalhashbaz (10-26-2010 05:10 PM)Rose of Shushan Wrote:Quote:4. If Jesus' birth was a fulfillment of Isaiah 7:14, why wasn't Jesus named Immanuel? Immanuel is a personal name, not a proper noun. 6005 `Immanuw'el (im-maw-noo-ale'); from 5973 and 410 with a pronominal suffix inserted; with us (is) God; Immanuel, a type name of Isaiah's son: KJV-- Immanuel. (10-26-2010 06:04 PM)Rose of Shushan Wrote: If the Hebrews of Jesus' time knew that Isaiah had prophesied the Messiah would be born of virgin conception, Jesus' miraculous birth would have been publicly known and acknowledged. Can you give me the scriptures that publicize the virgin birth? I can see scripturally that Jesus was publicly acknowledged to be the son of Joseph: Matt 13:55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? (KJV) John 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph. (KJV) John 6:42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven? (KJV) Luke 4:22 And all bare him witness, and wondered at the gracious words which proceeded out of his mouth. And they said, Is not this Joseph's son? (KJV) |
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10-27-2010, 11:06 AM
Post: #18
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RE: Virgin Birth or Son of Joseph?
Quote:Can you give me the scriptures that publicize the virgin birth? I will look up some Scriptures later but one thing that immediately comes to my mind is that if you are doubting the virgin birth then you are also doubting the rest of the account in Luk 1:34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. Mat 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. Mat 1:19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily. Mat 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. Why would Joseph want to put her away privately if she wasn't pregnant? It says Joseph was a just man so he wouldn't have indulged in premarital relations. The Scriptures say that Mary conceived by the Holy Spirit and Joseph at first doubted and God had to reassure him via a dream. Furthermore Matthew tells us that they did not have relations until after she gave birth to Jesus. Mat 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS. |
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10-27-2010, 11:25 AM
Post: #19
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RE: Virgin Birth or Son of Joseph?
(10-26-2010 10:59 PM)sari83 Wrote: There is only one witness. Matthew 1:23 is the only place in the NT that references the Isaiah 7:14 prophecy. Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. Luk 1:27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary. Luk 1:28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. Luk 1:29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be. Luk 1:30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. Luk 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: Luk 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. Luk 1:34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. Quote:Vine's Expository Dictionary states that Immanuel is Isaiah's son. The NT says that Jesus is Immanuel. Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. Isaiah's wife was not a virgin. Isa 8 shows that Isaiah went into the prophetess and she conceived. Which means he had sexual relations with her. The result of that was Mahershalalhashbaz, not Immanuel. So a virgin did not conceive. Isa 8:8 And he shall pass through Judah; he shall overflow and go over, he shall reach even to the neck; and the stretching out of his wings shall fill the breadth of thy land, O Immanuel. Isaiah's son did not own all this land. It is a reference to Christ. Many times, the OT prophets referred to water in reference to the coming Messiah. And we know that Jesus is the Living Water - fulfilling these prophecies. Quote:Immanuel is a personal name, not a proper noun. Brown Driver Briggs Concordance: H6005 עמּנוּאל ‛immânû'êl BDB Definition: Immanuel = “God with us” or “with us is God” 1) symbolic and prophetic name of the Messiah, the Christ, prophesying that He would be born of a virgin and would be ‘God with us’ Part of Speech: noun proper masculine There is nothing in the text of Isaiah that says Immanuel is Isaiah's son. The context does not even remotely "go there". God did not say to Isaiah, your wife will conceive, He said a virgin will conceive - a prophecy of Jesus Christ. We know this because the Matthew and Luke shows us how this prophecy was fulfilled. The questions remain - do you believe the NT is the inspired Word of God? Do you believe that Matthew was a chosen apostle of Christ, to whom Jesus appointed, among others, to record His life and the Gospel? Do you believe that the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary, who was a virgin, and conceived Jesus Christ by the Holy Spirit? These are critical questions as to how we interpret Isaiah 7 and 8. Quote:Can you give me the scriptures that publicize the virgin birth? The above Scriptures publicize the virgin birth. By publicize, I believe Rose means they are published, written, recorded in the NT. Quote:I can see scripturally that Jesus was publicly acknowledged to be the son of Joseph: Jesus grew up in Joseph's household and was considered His human father. A child who lives with adults are considered to be their parents in the Bible. Moses is a good example, as is Esther. God adopted Israel as His son. We are the adopted children of God with full privileges to the inheritance in Christ. The NT clearly shows that Joseph is not Jesus' biological father. He married Mary while she was still a virgin and was carrying Jesus. Joseph did not consummate the marriage until after Jesus was born. Luk 2:4 And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judaea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem; (because he was of the house and lineage of David Luk 2:5 To be taxed with Mary his espoused wife, being great with child. Mat 1:24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife: Mat 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS. |
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10-27-2010, 02:33 PM
Post: #20
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RE: Virgin Birth or Son of Joseph?
(10-27-2010 11:06 AM)Rose of Shushan Wrote: [quote]Can you give me the scriptures that publicize the virgin birth? We have discussed the huge significance of the virgin birth, and why it should have been widely known and publicized throughout the NT and early church. The First Council of Nicea, A.D. 325, established the Nicene Creed. The creed is the profession of faith that is most widely used in Christian liturgy. Let's compare the Nicene Creed of 325 to the Creed of 381: There is no mention of the virgin birth of Jesus in the 325 creed. The Nicene Creed A.D. 325 First Council of Nicea We believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of all things visible and invisible; and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten of the Father, that is, of the substance [ek tes ousias] of the Father, God of God, light of light, true God of true God, begotten not made, of the same substance with the Father [homoousion to patri], through whom all things were made both in heaven and on earth; who for us men and our salvation descended, was incarnate, and was made man, suffered and rose again the third day, ascended into heaven and cometh to judge the living and the dead. And in the Holy Ghost. Those who say: There was a time when He was not, and He was not before He was begotten; and that He was made out of nothing (ex ouk onton); or who maintain that He is of another hypostasis or another substance [than the Father], or that the Son of God is created, or mutable, or subject to change, [them] the Catholic Church anathematizes. Virgin birth of Jesus is added to the 381 creed. The Nicene Creed A.D. 381 First Council of Constantinople We believe (I believe) in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, and born of the Father before all ages. (God of God) light of light, true God of true God. Begotten not made, consubstantial to the Father, by whom all things were made. Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven. And was incarnate of the Holy Ghost and of the Virgin Mary and was made man; was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate, suffered and was buried; and the third day rose again according to the Scriptures. And ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of the Father, and shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead, of whose Kingdom there shall be no end. And (I believe) in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceeds from the Father (and the Son), who together with the Father and the Son is to be adored and glorified, who spoke by the Prophets. And one holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. We confess (I confess) one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for (I look for) the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen." |
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