War

[YYZ Skinhead]

(09-28-2010 08:59 AM)sheep wrecked Wrote:  I believe that most Americans who join the military by their own choice and are Christians believe that they are serving God. Growing up in a Christian home, with both my Grandfather who served in WWI and my Dad who served in WWII, we were taught that America is a Christian nation and those who fought valiantly for freedom were on God's side. My son-in-law's Grandfather also served in WWI, was captured and spent 2 yrs in a German war camp where he suffered such extreme trauma that for the rest of his life, the very mention of the war would instigate severe nightmares to the point that his wife asked her family to stop asking Grandpa about his war experiences. Yet he died a proud American with full honors a few years ago and full military funeral.

My uncle was the same way: he couldn't stand talking about fighting in WWII. I had no idea he was a WWII Veteran till after he died. I had another uncle who fought in Korea. Fortunately my dad served during peacetime, but he was buried with full honors as well. I have nothing but respect for American and Allied servicemen and servicewomen who have the courage to do what most civilians won't. I nearly enlisted in 1990 (which would have meant going to fight Saddam) but unfortuantely I already had PTSD. I think that may be part of the reason I have so many Vietnam, Desert Storm and Enduring Freedom Veteran friends--bikers, skinheads, other patriots (and not only from the USA). I have identical symptoms to theirs, though for different reasons.

(09-28-2010 08:59 AM)sheep wrecked Wrote:  I understand all this from a different viewpoint today and I agree that fighting for an earthly kingdom is not what we are supposed to focus on or participate in. However; that does not diminish how I view men and women in the military who believe they have fought valiantly and given the ultimate sacrifice in the name of freedom and I will continue to support them as individuals. Jesus said that if we loved one another enough to lay our lives down - that was real love. From my perspective, it's gonna be mighty hard to tell Christian grieving parents that their son or daughter died for nothing and should be considered murderers for defending our country out of love for their fellowman and their country - no matter how misplaced we feel that is.

John 15:13 (Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends) is another of my favorite verses. God as a Man was willing to lay down His life for a world of ungrateful humans. He tells us that mourners and the poor in spirit are blessed (Matthew 5:3-4). Isn't there a verse that says we are to weep and mourn with grieving people?

(09-28-2010 08:59 AM)sheep wrecked Wrote:  The issue is very complex and my personal opinion really matters little in the scope of things. God has used service to bring men and women to Christ in the military too many times to count. He is bigger than what people believe and practice in this regard. We can stand on a platform and shout all the day long about the "sin" of killing in a war, but ultimately, God is the one who judges the human heart.

This reminds me of the various Roman centurions who became believers in Christ despite being subject to the Pagan Roman government.

I am the last individual to say that killing somebody in war before they kill you and/or your fellow servicemen, is a sin. That isn't murder, it's defensive killing. The Commandment says "thou shalt not murder", not "thou shalt not kill defensively in war". There will always be wars in the current world because humans are a warlike species.

God definitely uses military service to bring people to Him. A decorated Veteran friend of mine (who served in Enduring Freedom and is younger than I am) on a skinhead forum was flamed for fighting in the war, by a self-righteous peacenik troll. He has the same PTSD symptoms that I have. I quoted John 15:13 to him and it led to him reading the entire book of John, which he said made him feel better about himself. God's Word doesn't come back void.

[heb13-13]

I missed this. Sheep says: "We can stand on a platform and shout all the day long about the "sin" of killing in a war, but ultimately, God is the one who judges the human heart."

What amazes me is how this forum is not afraid to bring any topic face to face with God's Word. But on this topic, you are copping out, with this statement above.

There are young people, Christians, if you will, that want to know what God's Word says on this subject. Be very careful what you tell them. You tell people what you think God's Word says on all kinds of other subjects, but you won't do it on this one.

Basically, do what you think is right, if you heart is in the right place, God will judge your heart. Man, that is great theology.

[Vic]

These verses I believe are relevant to how Christians should actually view war. Aside from some already posted.

James 4:1-10 From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members? 2. Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not. 3. Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts. 4. Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God. 5. Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy? 6. But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble. 7. Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. 8. Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded. 9. Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness. 10. Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

I believe that, as I have stated in my CNP introduction, having been involved in politics briefly and dealing with politicians----who are at the helm of war and war policies and govt policies which violate the scriptures---I do believe that these are things that Christians need to understand FULLY in light of the Scriptures. Not according to a countries/schools/patriotism teachings and indoctrination. And we have had family who have been in the 2WW and also were in the military recently.

Christians aka believers in the Lord Jesus Christ belong to one country. Not 2. Because if you belong to 2 countries you have split loyalties.
That's why there are Scriptures that must be weighed to these very issues.

1 Peter 2:9. But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: 10. Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy. 11. Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul; 12. Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation. 13. Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; 14. Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well. 15. For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men: 16. As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God. 17. Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.

Hebrews 11:13-16 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. 15. And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Heb 13:14 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.

Matthew 25:34-36 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35. For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36. Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

Jesus said to give to Caesar what is Caesars; pay your taxes obey the laws of the land,--unless you are forced to violate Scripture by those laws-- but nowhere is there any suggestion of going to war for Caesar in order to expand his wicked kingdom. God allows and puts the people in power that are fulfilling prophecies and His purposes for the whole earth. Our battle is a spiritual battle. We are not sitting on the sidelines simply because we don't enter into physical earthly wars that are instigated by lust and sin; nor can we serve 2 masters. Our focus is to be on following Christ. We cannot do that if we have split loyalties. And here is why according to the Scriptures.

Matthew 6:19-25 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: 20. But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: 21. For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. 22. The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light. 23. But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness! 24. No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon. 25. Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?

2 Timothy 2:3-7 Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ. 4. No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier. 5. And if a man also strive for masteries, yet is he not crowned, except he strive lawfully. 6. The husbandman that laboureth must be first partaker of the fruits. 7. Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things.

[sheep wrecked]

(09-28-2010 01:39 PM)heb13-13 Wrote:  I missed this. Sheep says: "We can stand on a platform and shout all the day long about the "sin" of killing in a war, but ultimately, God is the one who judges the human heart."

What amazes me is how this forum is not afraid to bring any topic face to face with God's Word. But on this topic, you are copping out, with this statement above.

There are young people, Christians, if you will, that want to know what God's Word says on this subject. Be very careful what you tell them. You tell people what you think God's Word says on all kinds of other subjects, but you won't do it on this one.

Basically, do what you think is right, if you heart is in the right place, God will judge your heart. Man, that is great theology.

hey Rick! I think you jumped the gun [pun intended ]. I agree with you that war is wrong - we are not of this world. I said I had had changed my view over the years from when I was a kid raised under the "God Bless America" flag.

So let me rephrase it for ya My position is that it's not up to us to judge someone else's decision. All of us have made choices that go against God's Word. And God's knows I am the worst offender after following two deceptive movements that preached another Christ. Yet God saw me through all that, knowing that my heart was truly to seek after His truth. And it took a long time to get free of all the junk by His grace. But in spite of those years, I was still His child. Just as men and women who serve in the military are misled to believe they are serving God, He is still their God.

Even when David sent Uriah to his death, He was still God's chosen. Even when Paul had many Christians killed, He was still God's chosen. This is why I say the subject is complex. You are reading more into it than I meant. It probably would have been nice to ask me to explain rather than to put me up in front of the firing sqad

In a recent post, you said this: "I became a Christian in the Navy during the Vietnam War and the Lord did not lead me to become a conscientious objector and leave the Navy early. On the other hand, I led a fellow sailor to the Lord, (John O.) and about 8 months after his new birth he told me that he was filing conscientious objector status and leaving the Navy. I did not have any problem with that and he did not have any problem with me staying in the Navy. We all have our personal relationship with God." If you are in the Navy, you are supporting the war machine regardless of the job you have. Were you still a child of God?


I am not advocating that people join the service. If they ask my opinion, I would give them Scriptural reasons why they shouldn't. I am more than well aware of the agenda, greed and politics of government who fuel the war machine and I was devastated to be confronted with the truth of all that. I am really on your side for the most part. I am just very careful about condemning people who are ignorant.

[heb13-13]

(09-28-2010 05:13 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote:  

(09-28-2010 01:39 PM)heb13-13 Wrote:  I missed this. Sheep says: "We can stand on a platform and shout all the day long about the "sin" of killing in a war, but ultimately, God is the one who judges the human heart."

What amazes me is how this forum is not afraid to bring any topic face to face with God's Word. But on this topic, you are copping out, with this statement above.

There are young people, Christians, if you will, that want to know what God's Word says on this subject. Be very careful what you tell them. You tell people what you think God's Word says on all kinds of other subjects, but you won't do it on this one.

Basically, do what you think is right, if you heart is in the right place, God will judge your heart. Man, that is great theology.

hey Rick! I think you jumped the gun [pun intended ]. I agree with you that war is wrong - we are not of this world. I said I had had changed my view over the years from when I was a kid raised under the "God Bless America" flag.

So let me rephrase it for ya My position is that it's not up to us to judge someone else's decision. All of us have made choices that go against God's Word. And God's knows I am the worst offender after following two deceptive movements that preached another Christ. Yet God saw me through all that, knowing that my heart was truly to seek after His truth. And it took a long time to get free of all the junk by His grace. But in spite of those years, I was still His child. Just as men and women who serve in the military are misled to believe they are serving God, He is still their God.

Even when David sent Uriah to his death, He was still God's chosen. Even when Paul had many Christians killed, He was still God's chosen. This is why I say the subject is complex. You are reading more into it than I meant. It probably would have been nice to ask me to explain rather than to put me up in front of the firing sqad

In a recent post, you said this: "I became a Christian in the Navy during the Vietnam War and the Lord did not lead me to become a conscientious objector and leave the Navy early. On the other hand, I led a fellow sailor to the Lord, (John O.) and about 8 months after his new birth he told me that he was filing conscientious objector status and leaving the Navy. I did not have any problem with that and he did not have any problem with me staying in the Navy. We all have our personal relationship with God." If you are in the Navy, you are supporting the war machine regardless of the job you have. Were you still a child of God?


I am not advocating that people join the service. If they ask my opinion, I would give them Scriptural reasons why they shouldn't. I am more than well aware of the agenda, greed and politics of government who fuel the war machine and I was devastated to be confronted with the truth of all that. I am really on your side for the most part. I am just very careful about condemning people who are ignorant.

Hi Sheep, I am very sorry if I jumped the gun. It looks like I did. I agree that we are not to condemn people, that is not our place. I personally love servicemen and women. My whole life growing up was around them, and then I joined the Navy and saw God's hand move in their lives. If I could do something right now, it would be to start a Servicemen's Center in some foreign port, just like the two Servicemen's Centers that I was so blessed to be a part of in the Phillipines and Japan. I would love to minister to military men. I ministered to many of them, my last two years in the Navy. The military is a very good place to get saved (just because of the nature of possibly going into harm's way) and many men and women have come to Jesus Christ in the military. Even, apart from war, 22 men died on my ship just from accidents.

You are right, when I was in the military, I was supporting a war machine. I have also been supporting the same war machine for the 30 years that I have been a civilian, since the Navy. It's called taxes.

I do not believe that we should protest taxes and refuse to pay them. That is going against what Jesus said. He knew we live in a wicked world and if we all stopped paying taxes we would all be in jail, so He gave us an out. Render to Caesar...

I don't see where He gave us an "out" to kill.

I still believe that you have to give room for the Holy Spirit to lead a Christian into the military, (cooks, admin, personnel, supply, etc). I am not of the camp that says it is a sin to serve in the military in a non-combat position, otherwise I would have to join the camp that does not pay taxes.

I also, do not tell men or women that they are sinning if they are in a combat position. I don't have to say that.

But, I can advise young people that are thinking of joining the military that the Word (NT) says, "do not kill". And it will harm you spiritually. To what degree, I don't know, but it certainly cannot be good. And that is all that I am saying to Skinhead.

So the question was not, "Is war wrong", but is it a sin for Christians to fight in war. That is what Skinhead asked.

I think all you can do is show the inquiring mind what the scriptures say.

The word judge is used very loosely these days.

We do judge. We judge right from wrong all the time.

When you say, "We should not judge someone else's decision", I think we do that all the time. What you mean is we should not condemn anyone and I agree.

If Skinhead joins the military, I will pray for his safety and also hope that he leads many men to Jesus Christ.

When someone makes a bad decision, for instance, taking drugs, we judge that it is a bad decision, but we then move to minister and not condemn that person, if we have the chance.

I am probably in overkill mode now, but just so you and everyone else knows. I do not condemn anyone for being in the military or even fighting. It is simply not my pay grade to do that (pun intended). But, I do have responsibility to share honestly to a young soul what I think the Word of God is saying regarding this subject, but in the end they have to live their own life for their view of the Scriptures and God and not live their life for me. I certainly do not want that responsibility.

[resolute]

I'd like to weigh in on this subject, if I may. Biblical doctrine deceptions are not the only deceptions out there. Political deceptions abound. The interesting thing is that after digging through these political rabbitholes, I've come to the conclusion that for the most part, the same wolves in sheep's clothing responsible for perpetuating religious error are also responsible for perpetuating other error. In my case, I'm a baby Christian, but in areas of politics and war, I'm a grizzled veteran. The assumptions that most people make about these things are simply not true. For instance:

1. American soldiers don't fight for our country even if they believe that they do.
2. American soldiers don't fight for freedom even if they believe that they do.

The sad truth is that American soldiers, and most other soldiers, fight on behalf of the 'money changers' similar to those that Jesus drove out of the temple.
For this reason I do believe that it is murder for soldiers to kill people, at least in the case of American soldiers fighting today.

I believe that most people would be shocked how these issues come together with Christianity if one connects the dots. 'All roads lead to Rome', sort of thing.

resolute

[sheep wrecked]

(11-02-2010 11:05 PM)resolute Wrote:  I'd like to weigh in on this subject, if I may. Biblical doctrine deceptions are not the only deceptions out there. Political deceptions abound. The interesting thing is that after digging through these political rabbitholes, I've come to the conclusion that for the most part, the same wolves in sheep's clothing responsible for perpetuating religious error are also responsible for perpetuating other error. In my case, I'm a baby Christian, but in areas of politics and war, I'm a grizzled veteran. The assumptions that most people make about these things are simply not true. For instance:

1. American soldiers don't fight for our country even if they believe that they do.
2. American soldiers don't fight for freedom even if they believe that they do.

The sad truth is that American soldiers, and most other soldiers, fight on behalf of the 'money changers' similar to those that Jesus drove out of the temple.
For this reason I do believe that it is murder for soldiers to kill people, at least in the case of American soldiers fighting today.

I believe that most people would be shocked how these issues come together with Christianity if one connects the dots. 'All roads lead to Rome', sort of thing.

resolute

Interesting .... Let me ask you if you feel that WWI and WWII were a hoax perpetuated on the Amercian public?

[resolute]

[/quote]

Interesting .... Let me ask you if you feel that WWI and WWII were a hoax perpetuated on the Amercian public?
[/quote]

I don't think 'hoax' is the right word, more like 'fraud' or 'racket'. Here is a quote from a former US General that sums it up quite nicely:

“War is just a racket. A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of people. Only a small inside group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few at the expense of the masses.

I believe in adequate defense at the coastline and nothing else. If a nation comes over here to fight, then we'll fight. The trouble with America is that when the dollar only earns 6 percent over here, then it gets restless and goes overseas to get 100 percent. Then the flag follows the dollar and the soldiers follow the flag.

I wouldn't go to war again as I have done to protect some lousy investment of the bankers. There are only two things we should fight for. One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights. War for any other reason is simply a racket.

There isn't a trick in the racketeering bag that the military gang is blind to. It has its "finger men" to point out enemies, its "muscle men" to destroy enemies, its "brain men" to plan war preparations, and a "Big Boss" Super-Nationalistic-Capitalism.

It may seem odd for me, a military man to adopt such a comparison. Truthfulness compels me to. I spent thirty- three years and four months in active military service as a member of this country's most agile military force, the Marine Corps. I served in all commissioned ranks from Second Lieutenant to Major-General. And during that period, I spent most of my time being a high class muscle- man for Big Business, for Wall Street and for the Bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism.

I suspected I was just part of a racket at the time. Now I am sure of it. Like all the members of the military profession, I never had a thought of my own until I left the service. My mental faculties remained in suspended animation while I obeyed the orders of higher-ups. This is typical with everyone in the military service.

I helped make Mexico, especially Tampico, safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefits of Wall Street. The record of racketeering is long. I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers in 1909-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. In China I helped to see to it that Standard Oil went its way unmolested.

During those years, I had, as the boys in the back room would say, a swell racket. Looking back on it, I feel that I could have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents.”

-Smedley Butler, USMC

(me again)This all becomes very clear when one understands 2 very important truths:

1. The people responsible for setting up this country were, for the most part, members of Secret Societies that worshipped the God of this world.
This is not something that you'll find in the history books, but the information is surprisingly available and easy to find for anyone that seriously decides to look. One of their mottos is 'hidden in plain site'.
We know from scripture that bad seeds cannot make good fruit, so if the founders and leaders of this country are and have always been evil people that practice occultism and witchcraft-things abominable to God- the fruit produced by these people will be evil (and it is).
2. The present money system is predicated on the biblical abomination of usury. Remember how outraged Jesus was concerning the money changers in the temple? Also, here is some scripture concerning how God feels about usury:

1.Exodus 22:25
If thou lend money to any of my people that is poor by thee, thou shalt not be to him as an usurer, neither shalt thou lay upon him usury.
Exodus 22:24-26 (in Context) Exodus 22 (Whole Chapter)
2.Leviticus 25:36
Take thou no usury of him, or increase: but fear thy God; that thy brother may live with thee.
Leviticus 25:35-37 (in Context) Leviticus 25 (Whole Chapter)
3.Leviticus 25:37
Thou shalt not give him thy money upon usury, nor lend him thy victuals for increase.
Leviticus 25:36-38 (in Context) Leviticus 25 (Whole Chapter)
4.Deuteronomy 23:19
Thou shalt not lend upon usury to thy brother; usury of money, usury of victuals, usury of any thing that is lent upon usury:
Deuteronomy 23:18-20 (in Context) Deuteronomy 23 (Whole Chapter)
5.Deuteronomy 23:20
Unto a stranger thou mayest lend upon usury; but unto thy brother thou shalt not lend upon usury: that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all that thou settest thine hand to in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
Deuteronomy 23:19-21 (in Context) Deuteronomy 23 (Whole Chapter)
6.Nehemiah 5:7
Then I consulted with myself, and I rebuked the nobles, and the rulers, and said unto them, Ye exact usury, every one of his brother. And I set a great assembly against them.
Nehemiah 5:6-8 (in Context) Nehemiah 5 (Whole Chapter)
7.Nehemiah 5:10
I likewise, and my brethren, and my servants, might exact of them money and corn: I pray you, let us leave off this usury.
Nehemiah 5:9-11 (in Context) Nehemiah 5 (Whole Chapter)
8.Psalm 15:5
He that putteth not out his money to usury, nor taketh reward against the innocent. He that doeth these things shall never be moved.
Psalm 15:4-5 (in Context) Psalm 15 (Whole Chapter)
9.Proverbs 28:8
He that by usury and unjust gain increaseth his substance, he shall gather it for him that will pity the poor.
Proverbs 28:7-9 (in Context) Proverbs 28 (Whole Chapter)
10.Isaiah 24:2
And it shall be, as with the people, so with the priest; as with the servant, so with his master; as with the maid, so with her mistress; as with the buyer, so with the seller; as with the lender, so with the borrower; as with the taker of usury, so with the giver of usury to him.
Isaiah 24:1-3 (in Context) Isaiah 24 (Whole Chapter)
(this is just a sample, there is a lot more)

I don't want to overwhelm anyone and I don't want to write a book, but without understanding the money system it's difficult to understand how this all comes together. The money system is based on usury.

resolute

[sheep wrecked]

Quote:Interesting .... Let me ask you if you feel that WWI and WWII were a hoax perpetuated on the Amercian public?

Quote:I don't think 'hoax' is the right word, more like 'fraud' or 'racket'. Here is a quote from a former US General that sums it up quite nicely:

“War is just a racket. A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of people. Only a small inside group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few at the expense of the masses.

I believe in adequate defense at the coastline and nothing else. If a nation comes over here to fight, then we'll fight. The trouble with America is that when the dollar only earns 6 percent over here, then it gets restless and goes overseas to get 100 percent. Then the flag follows the dollar and the soldiers follow the flag.

I wouldn't go to war again as I have done to protect some lousy investment of the bankers. There are only two things we should fight for. One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights. War for any other reason is simply a racket.

There isn't a trick in the racketeering bag that the military gang is blind to. It has its "finger men" to point out enemies, its "muscle men" to destroy enemies, its "brain men" to plan war preparations, and a "Big Boss" Super-Nationalistic-Capitalism.

It may seem odd for me, a military man to adopt such a comparison. Truthfulness compels me to. I spent thirty- three years and four months in active military service as a member of this country's most agile military force, the Marine Corps. I served in all commissioned ranks from Second Lieutenant to Major-General. And during that period, I spent most of my time being a high class muscle- man for Big Business, for Wall Street and for the Bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism.

I suspected I was just part of a racket at the time. Now I am sure of it. Like all the members of the military profession, I never had a thought of my own until I left the service. My mental faculties remained in suspended animation while I obeyed the orders of higher-ups. This is typical with everyone in the military service.

I helped make Mexico, especially Tampico, safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefits of Wall Street. The record of racketeering is long. I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers in 1909-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. In China I helped to see to it that Standard Oil went its way unmolested.

During those years, I had, as the boys in the back room would say, a swell racket. Looking back on it, I feel that I could have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents.”

-Smedley Butler, USMC

(me again)This all becomes very clear when one understands 2 very important truths:

1. The people responsible for setting up this country were, for the most part, members of Secret Societies that worshipped the God of this world.
This is not something that you'll find in the history books, but the information is surprisingly available and easy to find for anyone that seriously decides to look. One of their mottos is 'hidden in plain site'.
We know from scripture that bad seeds cannot make good fruit, so if the founders and leaders of this country are and have always been evil people that practice occultism and witchcraft-things abominable to God- the fruit produced by these people will be evil (and it is).
2. The present money system is predicated on the biblical abomination of usury. Remember how outraged Jesus was concerning the money changers in the temple? Also, here is some scripture concerning how God feels about usury:

1.Exodus 22:25
If thou lend money to any of my people that is poor by thee, thou shalt not be to him as an usurer, neither shalt thou lay upon him usury.
Exodus 22:24-26 (in Context) Exodus 22 (Whole Chapter)
2.Leviticus 25:36
Take thou no usury of him, or increase: but fear thy God; that thy brother may live with thee.
Leviticus 25:35-37 (in Context) Leviticus 25 (Whole Chapter)
3.Leviticus 25:37
Thou shalt not give him thy money upon usury, nor lend him thy victuals for increase.
Leviticus 25:36-38 (in Context) Leviticus 25 (Whole Chapter)
4.Deuteronomy 23:19
Thou shalt not lend upon usury to thy brother; usury of money, usury of victuals, usury of any thing that is lent upon usury:
Deuteronomy 23:18-20 (in Context) Deuteronomy 23 (Whole Chapter)
5.Deuteronomy 23:20
Unto a stranger thou mayest lend upon usury; but unto thy brother thou shalt not lend upon usury: that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all that thou settest thine hand to in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
Deuteronomy 23:19-21 (in Context) Deuteronomy 23 (Whole Chapter)
6.Nehemiah 5:7
Then I consulted with myself, and I rebuked the nobles, and the rulers, and said unto them, Ye exact usury, every one of his brother. And I set a great assembly against them.
Nehemiah 5:6-8 (in Context) Nehemiah 5 (Whole Chapter)
7.Nehemiah 5:10
I likewise, and my brethren, and my servants, might exact of them money and corn: I pray you, let us leave off this usury.
Nehemiah 5:9-11 (in Context) Nehemiah 5 (Whole Chapter)
8.Psalm 15:5
He that putteth not out his money to usury, nor taketh reward against the innocent. He that doeth these things shall never be moved.
Psalm 15:4-5 (in Context) Psalm 15 (Whole Chapter)
9.Proverbs 28:8
He that by usury and unjust gain increaseth his substance, he shall gather it for him that will pity the poor.
Proverbs 28:7-9 (in Context) Proverbs 28 (Whole Chapter)
10.Isaiah 24:2
And it shall be, as with the people, so with the priest; as with the servant, so with his master; as with the maid, so with her mistress; as with the buyer, so with the seller; as with the lender, so with the borrower; as with the taker of usury, so with the giver of usury to him.
Isaiah 24:1-3 (in Context) Isaiah 24 (Whole Chapter)
(this is just a sample, there is a lot more)

I don't want to overwhelm anyone and I don't want to write a book, but without understanding the money system it's difficult to understand how this all comes together. The money system is based on usury.

resolute

Since the fall, men have been warriors. It seems to "built in", so what you have described appears to me to be the "fuel" to generate and push forward the agenda, along with money and power. I think the sad thing is that the desire to "fight" [appears to be a "natural" male predisposition] was used and "abused" to further the agenda.

There is nothing that will get a guy to wanna fight more than to dangle the carrot to help the "oppressed" or to become a legal "killer". So I understand the drive and necessity for war. It is a money maker, no doubt about it. I see this more clearly in the conflicts in the middle east and have believed for a long time that it is all about oil - who wants it, who controls is and how to get it - all for the big bucks.

I definitely appreciate your perspectives. They are not new to me in that I have been exposed the last couple of years particularly, to the fact that America was not founded on "God", but on the secret societies that you speak of.

My problem is that I am torn between the knowing and the ability to measure that against what I was taught to believe from a child, to what I experienced at that time in regard to Khrushchev [I was taught that the cold war was a danger to the USA and therefore, he must be stopped or America would become a communist nation]. Then there was WWI and WWII in which grandparents, other relatives and my own father took part believing they were fighting against the threat of Hitler towards USA from German domination.

Throwing into that mix was England, who without America's help would have lost the war and been seized by Hitler. So in my mind, I am trying to sort these things out.

There is also the military at this very moment, where 1000s of men and women are serving in the middle east believing they are protecting people there and keeping the taliban from taking over here. Again, I understand the hype and "programming". But aside from all that, those serving in the military truly believe in what they are doing, as if it is God leading them to serve. And I am speaking of the Christians in this case, to separate them out for the moment.

After what happened with Viet Nam, and the ostracization of the men and women who returned who were booed and denounced, it is almost a relief to see the opposite taking place today. Only because of their personal sacrifice in believing they were doing the right thing.

So how do you resolve these issues? I am torn between anger and grief. I see so many young men and women giving their lives for "usary" and families who are torn apart, losing sons and daughters, husbands and wives, and friends for what they believe is "freedom". It's not like you can say, your loved one just lost his/her life for some political power hungry money making war machine.

There are other parts of this that I will save for later, but from my perspective it is terribly complex. I appreciate your willingness to discuss these things as they weigh heavy on me.

[Vic]

I can't remember the exact quote or who said it, but the idea is that if a country's leader is falling in support all he need do is go to war and his popularity is boosted. Others also say, if you need a reason to raise taxes, go to war and people won't even complain. That's where income tax came from; it was to pay for WW2 and was supposed to be a temporary measure. Guess that's why wars are necessary, because if one actually discontinued with income tax governments would skid to a halt. Some also say that countries can't fund normal good activies and war, it's one or the other and it's about what makes the most political and economic benefit to those in power.