PaRDeS

[sheep wrecked]

(10-27-2010 04:41 AM)Mary Wrote:  JP has altered the errors in his article since receiving my email critique, but he makes no apology for them but hints that I misquoted him. He uses the KJV only accusation despite my presenting a number of translations from different bibles, none of which support JP:

It looked to me like he outright called you a liar. He says that about everyone who disagrees with him or points out his errors. If he had sent the email to you personally, it would have not been so nice. Too bad you didn't do a screen shot of the errors. Prasch does not know the meaning of being truthful. He hates the KJV which is why he keyed in on it as the base if his accusation, thereby ridiculing you. This is his MO [mode of operation]. He is only interested in scamming people.

[uncledawg]

I stumbled onto your blog but I frankly fail to see your point.

Dallas Seminary Professor Darrel Boch’s doctoral thesis indeed maintains that prophecy is pattern (Dr. Boch is Jewish). Dr. Michael Rydelnik (also a Jewish Christian) professor of Jewish Studies at Moody Bible Institute teaches that the church should read the scripture as Jesus and The apostles did. A litany of conservative Evangelical scholars including Dr. R.N. Longenecker, Dr. T.S. Dockerty, Dr. EE. Ellis (also Jewish), Bilderbeck & Strauss likewise maintain that the New Testament interprets The Old Testament along midrashic lines (similar to the Dead Sea scrolls) and it is how a growing number of saved theologians refute the assertions liberal higher criticism and of unbelieving rabbis that The New Testament distorts The Old Testament out of context.

Everyone knows The New Testament was authored by Jews, everyone knows that The New Testament teaches that to The Jews belongs the oracles of God , and everyone knows that The New Testament deals with The Old Testament with methods of interpretation that are not purely in the grammatical-historical vain of the Western church; just look at Galatians 4 or Jude’s epistle. Others besides Jacob Prasch have cited Pesher interpretations in the gospels, the use of Levitical typology in The New Testament, and whether anyone approves or not the term Midrash is found in scripture even though some KJV Only fanatics wrongly tried to deny it because it is not translated as such in their KJV. None of you seem to have an academic background or grasp of biblical languages yet you put yourself forward as having an expertise where you do not.

It was the Puritan theologian John Lightfoot who first wrote a commentary series in the 17th century arguing that The New Testament uses Midrash as a hermeneutic, not Jacob Prasch. The Puritans by the way refused to use the KJV but preferred The Geneva Bible because they considered the 1611 KJV to be too Roman Catholic with its lists of Roman Catholic feasts of Mary and inclusion of the apocrypha by King James who persecuted Born again Christians forcing them to flee to Holland and to America on The Mayflower.

As the son of the very Roman Catholic Mary Queen of Scots his Catholic leanings were obvious and most British historians consider him to have been a homosexual, so the Puritans rejected him.

A visit to Jacob Prasch’s website (Moriel.org) will confirm that in addition to opposing the word-faith money preachers, the ecumenical movement and unity with Roman Catholicism, the Purpose Driven agenda, inclusivist bible translations such as ‘The Message’, and the Emergent church etc. Jacob Prasch has also warned of the extreme axis of the modern Messianic movement and denounced basing doctrine on symbolism as Gnostic. Jacob Prasch openly denounces Talmudic Judaism as a false religion and calls kaballah ‘occultic’. Are we speaking about the same Jacob Prasch ?

When I go to his website and read for myself what he actually believes and read what is said about him by a seemingly very small group of people on this blog spot it appears that unless you are deliberately lying you are just plain ignorant .You do not even seem to know the difference between midrash as hermeneutics (which many Christian scholars accept) and the later rabbinic writing called midrash which Jacob Prasch does not accept.

I think you are being rather silly and some would say dishonest or maybe anti Semitic.

Cheers

[YYZ Skinhead]

(02-12-2011 11:46 PM)uncledawg Wrote:  I think you are being rather silly and some would say dishonest or maybe anti Semitic.

Cheers

I am surprised that it took this long.

[Vic]

Quote: I stumbled onto your blog but I frankly fail to see your point

dawg, (can't bring myself to call you uncle)

For accuracy sake allow me to point out just a few things.

1. This isn't a blog. It's a discussion forum. If you are unaware there is a difference in the two, please take time to do a google search for the words "what is a ">blog< and <discussion forum or Internet forum> You will find on a forum, posts are moderated and people can be banned for breaking forum rules which they agreed to at signup. In addition, my website is filled with researched articles with heavy documentation, analysis and not just opinion. That's unlike people like Jacob Prasch who expects his followers to take his 'stuff' hook, line and sinker, with zero documentation and name dropping for effect, to make what he says sound legit and therefore it must be Scriptural and accurate.

Darrel Boch's thesis, is sort of like my stuff, except, I don't have letters behind my name. I guess I must have a lot of thesis' posted on my website over the last ten plus years, since a thesis is a research paper presenting the author's research and findings and opinions/analysis.

Paul wrote:

1Co 1:4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ; 5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge; 6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you: 7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Boch's "thesis indeed maintains that prophecy is pattern"

I fail to see your point, other than that matches Judaism's practice of interpretation of the OT. That's his opinion based on his research. People can agree or disagree since his writings are not Scripture. Christian's understand Scripture through the Holy Spirit. And we know that the prophecies of the OT were fulfilled in Christ. Over 50 verses in the NT refer to prophecy being fulfilled specifically. For example:

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Luke 24:44-48 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. 45. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, 46. And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: 47. And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48. And ye are witnesses of these things.

Rom 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

Quote:Dr. Michael Rydelnik (also a Jewish Christian) professor of Jewish Studies at Moody Bible Institute teaches that the church should read the scripture as Jesus and The apostles did.

>>> ....and how did they read the NT????? Most of the apostles were from Galilee and had never been to a 'pharasaical' school. That's why in Acts 2, when they all spoke in different languages, those that heard were astonished. Didn't the apostles 'read' the Scriptures as Christ gave them understanding? The Bereans checked what Paul taught and compared it to the Scriptures to see if it was so. It had nothing to do with midrash as promoted by these people.

Luk 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, ***that all things must be fulfilled, ***which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. 45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

God has made a habit of using those out of their perceived limitations, to do His will. It's not about man's abilities or credentials.

Amo 7:14 Then answered Amos, and said to Amaziah, I was no prophet, neither was I a prophet's son; but I was an herdman, and a gatherer of sycomore fruit:
Amo 7:15 And the LORD took me as I followed the flock, and the LORD said unto me, Go, prophesy unto my people Israel.

1Sa 17:14 And David was the youngest: and the three eldest followed Saul.
1Sa 17:15 But David went and returned from Saul to feed his father's sheep at Bethlehem.

1Sa 17:23 And as he talked with them, behold, there came up the champion, the Philistine of Gath, Goliath by name, out of the armies of the Philistines, and spake according to the same words: and David heard them.
1Sa 17:24 And all the men of Israel, when they saw the man, fled from him, and were sore afraid.

1Sa 17:26 And David spake to the men that stood by him, saying, What shall be done to the man that killeth this Philistine, and taketh away the reproach from Israel? for who is this uncircumcised Philistine, that he should defy the armies of the living God? ...32 And David said to Saul, Let no man's heart fail because of him; thy servant will go and fight with this Philistine.
1Sa 17:33 And Saul said to David, Thou art not able to go against this Philistine to fight with him: for thou art but a youth, and he a man of war from his youth. ... 50 So David prevailed over the Philistine with a sling and with a stone, and smote the Philistine, and slew him; but there was no sword in the hand of David.

It's about what God does through a person as He chooses, not about what men determine is ok or good.

Re the midrash promoted by Prasch >>>

Quote:A litany of conservative Evangelical scholars including Dr. R.N. Longenecker, Dr. T.S. Dockerty, Dr. EE. Ellis (also Jewish),

Mr Prasch has already been refuted on the midrash he promotes but you seem to think that the 2 times midrash is used in the OT it means what he and these listed scholars are promoting. That would be wrong. As I already wrote in the update about Prasch back in 2003.

The article> Update: Jacob Prasch & Moriel Revisited January 10, 2003
http://www.seekgod.ca/jpupdate.htm which has been partially posted in this thread if you had bothered to read it and all the ***documentation*** with it. I would recommend you read the whole article, then go and read the series> To Embrace Hebrew Roots, which discusses amongst other individual and groups, Prasch's teachings and use of Midrash, and so you comprehend we are not devoid of understanding as you and Prasch like to suggest. We did our homework. You have not.

To Embrace Hebrew Roots (Series) Jan-Mar, http://www.seekgod.ca/topichr.htm#series
Part I: Introduction 1999 >>>>

Followed by this Series > Jacob Prasch Plus Pentecostals, Charismatics & Evangelicals
Jacob Prasch : A Closer Look Spring 2000 >>> http://www.seekgod.ca/jpfriends.htm

Update: Jacob Prasch & Moriel Revisited January 10, 2003
http://www.seekgod.ca/jpupdate.htm

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[Vic]

From the article> Update: Jacob Prasch & Moriel Revisited January 10, 2003 http://www.seekgod.ca/jpupdate.htm

Quote:Further, it's taken Jacob over three years to come up with an actual Bible based response concerning the following:

Quote: *The term 'goyim' is found multiple times in the bible and is merely the Hebrew word for "nations" , usually translated as 'Gentiles' and 'ethnon' in the Greek New Testament and in the Septuagint. Far from being a derogatory term as Dillen charges, Israel is called a 'goy' in Isaiah 65. Whether Dillen disapproves of the biblical terminology, Jews, or both is not clear. What is clear is that as usual she demonstrates a fundamental ignorance of the matters on which she
misrepresents herself as having an expertise. In her article, Dillen also disapproves of the bible's use of the term Midrash according to the Hebrew Masoretic text of 2 Chron. 13:22 (' Now the rest of the acts of Abijah , his ways and sayings, are written in the "midrash" of the prophet Iddo')- verse 23 in the original Hebrew.*

Goyim or "gowy" in the proper Hebrew, defined Biblically also includes the term heathen, troop of animals or a flight of locusts. The term goyim is proven to be a derogatory term as well, as is shown in the articles. It's that simple. I stand by the Word of God. Those who use goyim as a
slur do not.

Regarding Midrash---true Biblical parables are not wrong. When one reads the Scripture Jacob used above, it means a little bit different than he implies. 2 Chronicles 13:22 "And the rest of the acts of Abijah, and his ways, and his sayings, are written in the story of the prophet Iddo.."

Recording an event or writing the story of what took place is not wrong and the term midrash is used in it's correct Biblical intent. Midrash according to Strong's Hebrew Concordance means : from 1875; properly, an investigation, i.e. (by implication) a treatise or elaborate compilation:--story. The passage referred to was a compilation of events, a biography of Abijah's life, if you will. His story.

However, what Jacob Prasch espouses for midrash is kabbalistic and talmudic and gnostic doctrine, which are meant to detract from Biblical doctrine and change sound Biblical doctrine. That's a huge difference.

Quoting from my Hebrew Roots article Literal Kabbalah written in 1999:

"....The Kabbalah in English verifies that the Kabbalists reinterpreted large portions of the Old Testament midrashically in order to inject Judaism with gnosticism:

"The Midrash, stemming from the same period as the Talmud, but more concerned with supplying context and elaboration of the Biblical text. Much legendary material is archived here.

Midrashim exist on the Torah, the books of Ruth, Lamentations, Ecclesiastes, Esther, Song of Songs (together referred to as the five Megillot), and Psalms. Usually all but the last are grouped together as Midrash Rabbah, and a multivolume translation from the Soncino Press is available. 3

Mr. Jacob Prasch of Moriel recommends the classical Jewish works mentioned above, Midrash Rabba and Lamentations Rabba, as the preferred resources for the study of Scripture:

Quote: "Midrash interprets prophecy as a cyclical pattern of historical recapitulation (prophecies having multiple fulfillment), with an ultimate fulfillment associated with the eschaton, which is the final focal point of the redemptive process. A classical work of Midrash in Judaism is the Midrash Rabba on Genesis (Berashith). Another is Lamentations Rabba.

" The clearest set of guidelines in Midrash are the Seven Midroth attributed to Rabbi Hillel, the founder of the Pharisaic School of Hillel, where Rabbi Shaul (St. Paul) was educated as a rabbi by Rabbi Gamaliel, the grandson of Hillel.

Midrash makes heavy use of allegory and typology to illustrate and illuminate doctrine, but never as a basis for doctrine. It sees multiple meanings in Bible texts found in strata, but this is very different in certain fundamental respects from the gnostic and Alexandrian uses of figurative interpretation associated with Philo and Origen, reflecting more of Hebraic, rather than Helenistic philosophical world-view and view of theology. 4.

Hillel was one of the sages referred to in Part 7 of this series, whose teachings contributed deeply to the Talmud, Mishnah and other works. ...

This is the only other verse in the OT that uses 'midrash' > 2Ch 24:27 Now concerning his sons, and the greatness of the burdens laid upon him, and the repairing of the house of God, behold, they are written in the **story** of the book of the kings. And Amaziah his son reigned in his stead.

You along with Prasch promote the following "A litany of conservative Evangelical scholars including Dr. R.N. Longenecker, Dr. T.S. Dockerty, Dr. EE. Ellis (also Jewish), "

First, as part of this discussion Prasch may have changed the TS Doherty to Dockery since Mary first challenged him on it, but his original articles used TS Doherty, and one can see it still on the net as such, in various articles where he promotes Midrash. Midrash promotion almost seems to be an obsession because it is discussed repeatedly in articles such as "Slain in the Spirit: A Midrashic Perspective", written in 1996, although I first refuted Prasch's "An Explanation of Midrash" (1996), in 1999. Currently on his website, along with many other articles promoting midrash, from June 2010, you can see, Midrash and Jacob Prasch SORTING FACT FROM FICTION What does the Word of God Actually Say About Midrash?"

So lets just see what kind of 'story' they come up with to 'interpret' the scriptures using Midrash, just as Jacob Prasch does.

Dr. R.N. Longenecker>> let's see what he says >>>

Quote:"Ramsay Armitage Professor of New Testament at Wycliffe College in the University of Toronto"
...Midrashic exegesis ostensibly takes its point of departure from the biblical text itself (though psychologically it may have been motivated by other factors) and ***seeks to explicate the hidden meanings*** contained therein by means of agreed upon hermeneutical rules (e.g. Rabbi Hillel's seven Middoth; Rabbi Ishmael ben Elisha's later set of thirteen: or Rabbi Eliezer ben Jose ha-Galili's thirty-two). The purpose of midrashic exegesis is to contemporize the revelation of God given earlier for the people of God living later in a different situation. ...[
http://www.biblicalstudies.org.uk/articl...cker.html]

That means it's going by Judaism's use of midrash, which isn't just telling a story. The hidden meanings of Scripture are only hidden to those who do not know Jesus Christ. As Gershom Scholem stated, the vehicle of choice for kabbalists ie mystics to bring their gnostic view into harmony with their own traditions was allegory or midrash. http://www.seekgod.ca/literalkab.htm

It's interesting these promoted scholars use the same ideas and sources to validate themselves. For example Jacob Prasch also said, "The clearest set of guidelines in Midrash are the Seven Midroth attributed to Rabbi Hillel, ...Midrash is like a quadratic equation or a very complex
second order differential equation, a thirteen or fourteen step equation" There is no Scripture to support that concept. None.

Hillel's seven Middoth are believed to have been learned via Hellenistic influences, and along with Ishmael's 13, are not to be viewed as historically being written by them. It is believed by some scholars they didn't write them, but are either promoted as justification for using the
methods or were a simplification of some things they may have taught. [Techniques and assumptions in Jewish exegesis before 70 CE By David Instone Brewer pg 5- 7 **found in Google books--link too lengthy to use here***
One can view Hillel's, Ishmael's and Eliezer's lists in the Appendix of the book > pg 226. One might wish to read the conclusions that author conveyed.

A review of that book states,

Quote:"...the finding that the ancient rabbis, while they looked to the "scribes" as their forerunners and predecessors, adopted several Inspirational assumptions in their own interpretations of the Bible. They often took verses out of context and frequently extracted multiple meanings from the same text, and while they generally endorsed the sole validity of the Masoretic text they frequently departed from it..." http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Techniques...0209799822

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Dr. EE. Ellis>>an example of his writing>HOW JESUS INTERPRETED HIS BIBLE E. EARLE ELLIS Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary>>>

Jesus did not "interpret" the Bible. He was the Word made flesh. The NT shows how Jesus fulfilled every event prophesied in the OT pertaining to Him. His "doctrine" was the words that the Father gave Him showing the truth of who He is and of how to live for God.

Deu 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and **will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. ***
Deu 18:19 And it shall come to pass, that ***whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.****

Act 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
Act 3:23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. See also: Acts 3:20-26

Joh 7:14 Now about the midst of the feast Jesus went up into the temple, and taught.
Joh 7:15 And the Jews marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned?
Joh 7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
Joh 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

Quote:Bilderbeck & Strauss likewise maintain that the New Testament interprets The Old Testament along midrashic lines (similar to the Dead Sea scrolls) and it is how a growing number of saved theologians refute the assertions liberal higher criticism and of unbelieving rabbis that The New Testament distorts The Old Testament out of context.

Scripture interprets Scripture and it is the Holy Spirit that gives understanding, not manmade ideas or methods. Provide the Scripture that says otherwise.

1Co 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
1Co 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
1Co 1:20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
1Co 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
1Co 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
1Co 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
1Co 1:28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
1Co 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
1Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
1Co 1:31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

So while you appear to glorify what these men say, I will just go with what the Scriptures say.

1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Quote:Everyone knows The New Testament was authored by Jews,

Not exactly. It was inspired by God, who inspired particular men with what they needed to write and Luke was not a Jew. Try to be more accurate and scriptural in what you claim as truth. And they wrote in Koine Greek, the language of commerce and which all groups of people would have been familiar with.

2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

2Pe 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

2Pe 3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

Quote:everyone knows that The New Testament teaches that to The Jews belongs the oracles of God ,

I'd ask who everyone was in these statements but I think you would say 'everyone in the whole wide world '. The Jews were chosen by God----they didn't come up with the choice or the Scriptures. God chose them.

Deu 7:6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.
Deu 7:7 The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:
Deu 7:8 But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

Deu 14:2 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.

With that came a responsibility. They don't own the Scriptures. They were to protect and convey them to others.

Act 7:37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.
Act 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: ***who received the lively oracles to give unto us: ***
Act 7:39 To whom our fathers would not obey, but thrust him from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt,

Rom 3:2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

1Pe 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
1Pe 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
1Pe 1:12 **Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.***

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Quote: and everyone knows that The New Testament deals with The Old Testament with methods of interpretation that are not purely in the grammatical-historical vain of the Western church

So are you from the Western church? If you are then you have nothing to contribute do you? One must be Jewish or have a hebraic mindset and think and evaluate the way those in Judaism do the OT? Newsflash! Judaism rejects the New Testament and Jesus Christ and interpretations of prophecies concerning Christ are not the same as what Christians understand as being fulfilled. Those in Judaism deny the New Covenant. The interpretations that are drawn upon are from those very descendents of the hellenized Maccabees and descendants of the Pharisees Jesus rebuked. The method of interpretation by those who rejected Christ, is really quite simple from a Scriptural standpoint.

Jesus spoke in parables. Those who believed Him were given understanding of what they meant. Those who didn't, couldn't understand. It's all very prophetic and easy to understand if you believe the Scriptures and Jesus Christ.

Mat 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Mat 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Mat 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Mat 13:16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
Mat 13:17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

Mat 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
Mat 13:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

Mar 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
Mar 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
Mar 4:13 And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all
parables?
....Mar 4:33 And with many such parables spake he the word unto them, as they were able to hear it.
Mar 4:34 But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.

2Co 3:12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
2Co 3:13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
2Co 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
2Co 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
2Co 3:16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

Quote:None of you seem to have an academic background or grasp of biblical languages yet you put yourself forward as having an expertise where you do not.

Hmmm. You really do presume too much. One doesn't need secular credentials to learn something. One doesn't need secular ratings to understand the Scriptures. In fact in 2 Peter 1:1-12, in the list of things needed to have, acedemic credentials aren't listed.

2Pe 1:3 ***According as his divine power hath given unto us*** all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: ...

You appear to think that one's intelligence/conversation and ability to comprehend things is based on that criteria. Since even a child can understand the Scriptures, I think what you are really saying is that many people don't have a clue about understanding the Scriptures so they try to devise ways to make sense of them that fit manmade thinking. It's about Christ. Not about letters or presumed 'leadership' saying something so it must be so.

1Jn 2:26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and **ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you,*** ye shall abide in him.

Prove all things. You have proven nothing but that appear to believe whatever you are told as supposedly scriptural and factual, whether it is sound or not. In fact you pretty much copied ideas in your post what Prasch has in his articles.

Lightfoot and Bullinger weren't the first to promote midrash. However from the 14th century forward through the 17th century were moves to promote a "Christian kabbalah" which included utilizing midrash, and using the same arguments, and it has continued over the last years. You can read about it here > http://www.seekgod.ca/embracnokab.htm

I don't follow the puritans much, but you appear to follow just about anyone except simply the Word of God. You might wish to read this article to round out your knowledge of them.
http://www.seekgod.ca/mystics.htm

You also follow a lot of made up tripe regarding King James. Not that it matters because God clearly has used the KJV to bring many thousands to the Truth of Jesus Christ.

If you had bothered to do your homework about what has been said here about Jacob Prasch---with full and complete documentation, you wouldn't be appearing so uninformed.

Please do Go read these articles I listed above and then look very carefully at all the documentation. Then look at Jacobs stuff and look for the/any documentation, including the false accusations towards any that refute him.

This article addresses his ecumenical issues, although they had been addressed prior to that > Update: Jacob Prasch & Moriel Revisited Jan 10, 2003 >>>
http://www.seekgod.ca/jpupdate.htm

Quote:When I go to his website and read for myself ....You do not even seem to know the difference between midrash as hermeneutics (which many Christian scholars accept) and the later rabbinic writing called midrash which Jacob Prasch does not accept.

I think you are being rather silly and some would say dishonest or maybe anti Semitic.

Since you obviously haven't done your homework, and bothered to become informed about what we know or don't know, your evaluation is really inconsequential. You appear to be lacking discernment and Scriptural understanding that, while you think we are to take you seriously, you have little to offer on these issues because it is obvious you have not studied to show yourself approved. You can applaud any and follow any man or ideas you want, but that doesn't make it sound doctrine. You very obviously do not know what midrash is or why it is being promoted.

You appear to struggle to discern deception from truth. As far as the insinuation that we are being dishonest or anti-semitic... There has been nothing manufactured here and the heavy documentation proves what has been researched. And the anti-semitism suggestion and implication, as YYZ said--what took you so long. Because obviously one must be anti semitic to say no to ideas that don't stand the test of Scripture. Or because as you bracketed, some of the scholars being referenced are Jewish, that must mean what they say is correct?...and to say no is to be anti-semitic. I think those scholars would see the total absurdity of that.

I guess we could ask our forum members of Jewish heritage if they think we are anti-semitic, including one that is a practicing Orthodox Jew... but....if you think agreeing or disagreeing with someone because of their 'race' is the way to go...then I think that makes you a respector of persons...and that is against the Scriptures.

Jas 2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.
Jas 2:2 For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment;
Jas 2:3 And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool:
Jas 2:4 Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts?

Jas 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
Jas 2:9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

1 Corinthians 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
6 And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.
7 For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?

Matthew 23:12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted

Acts 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

John 5:44 Jesus said: "How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?

You appear to think secular credentials make the person. That isn't what God says.

1Pe 1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

1Co 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
1Co 1:20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

1Co 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
1Co 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

1Co 1:5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;
1Co 1:6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:
1Co 1:7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:

[SheitlQueen]

(02-17-2011 05:01 PM)Vic Wrote:  I guess we could ask our forum members of Jewish heritage if they think we are anti-semitic, including one that is a practicing Orthodox Jew...

That would be me, and no there is no anti-semitism on the forum.
None.

Just because someone does not agree with what Jews believe, it does not
make them anti-semitic. Anymore than me not agreeing with Christians
makes me "anti-Christian".

Not sure who is suggesting the forum is anti-semitic, but whoever you
are-you are WRONG. And if you think the forum is anti-semitic-you
don't know what the word means.

[sheep wrecked]

(02-22-2011 11:16 AM)SheitlQueen Wrote:  

(02-17-2011 05:01 PM)Vic Wrote:  I guess we could ask our forum members of Jewish heritage if they think we are anti-semitic, including one that is a practicing Orthodox Jew...

That would be me, and no there is no anti-semitism on the forum.
None.

Just because someone does not agree with what Jews believe, it does not
make them anti-semitic. Anymore than me not agreeing with Christians
makes me "anti-Christian".

Not sure who is suggesting the forum is anti-semitic, but whoever you
are-you are WRONG. And if you think the forum is anti-semitic-you
don't know what the word means.

Thanx, SheitlQueen

I think it's hard for people to comprehend sometimes that presenting the facts does not make one anti a person or a group of people. As we have agreed on this forum, Christianity and Judaism are two different religions. It's when people try to blend the lines that problems erupt. I think I can speak for most everyone here, that we really appreciate your "latitude" and understanding that when we present information about Judaism, in light of the NT, that it is not a slam against the Jews, but showing the differences in what we believe. It is not meant as a judgment against anyone.

Sometimes it appears that we get what people refer to as "snarky", but our intent is not to be rude, and we really apologize for coming off so harsh at times. Thank you for bearing with us

We all need reminders every day that we need to keep our focus on being positive and kind, and for those of us that profess to be followers of Christ, that means we must exude His likeness, love, and mercy at all times

We have had some posters here that have exuded much patience and have always posted in the kindest most effective way. So kudos to you

SheitlQueen, Mary, and YYZ!!!!

[Vic]

(02-22-2011 11:16 AM)SheitlQueen Wrote:  

(02-17-2011 05:01 PM)Vic Wrote:  I guess we could ask our forum members of Jewish heritage if they think we are anti-semitic, including one that is a practicing Orthodox Jew...

That would be me, and no there is no anti-semitism on the forum.
None.

Just because someone does not agree with what Jews believe, it does not
make them anti-semitic. Anymore than me not agreeing with Christians
makes me "anti-Christian".

Not sure who is suggesting the forum is anti-semitic, but whoever you
are-you are WRONG. And if you think the forum is anti-semitic-you
don't know what the word means.

Thank you so much for saying that SheitlQueen. I really appreciate it.