Is Easter Pagan?

[sari83]

The Lord's Supper was observed by the early Christians on the same day of Passover. This was their Pascha. Easter/Resurrection celebrations did not commence until later. It also appears the Church of Rome was prepared to deem Polycarp and others as heretics for their practice of observing Pascha instead of Easter. And so, Easter was not a unified celebration until the 3rd century.

[Rose of Shushan]

[quote]The Lord's Supper was observed by the early Christians on the same day of Passover. This was their Pascha. Easter/Resurrection celebrations did not commence until later. It also appears the Church of Rome was prepared to deem Polycarp and others as heretics for their practice of observing Pascha instead of Easter. And so, Easter was not a unified celebration until the 3rd century. [quote]

It would be nice to see some of the sources for the above so we can see what you mean otherwise it's all a bit vague and confusing.
When you say some observed the Lord's Supper and others observed Pascha what exactly do you mean by Pascha there.It certainly wasn't the Paschal lamb that they were eating.And what eactly were Polycarp and others doing that deemed them to be heretics.If we had some quotes from where you got that it would be very helpful.
Thanks

[sari83]

(04-13-2011 01:14 PM)Rose of Shushan Wrote:  It would be nice to see some of the sources for the above so we can see what you mean otherwise it's all a bit vague and confusing. When you say some observed the Lord's Supper and others observed Pascha what exactly do you mean by Pascha there.It certainly wasn't the Paschal lamb that they were eating.And what eactly were Polycarp and others doing that deemed them to be heretics.If we had some quotes from where you got that it would be very helpful.
Thanks

At the Passover meal (the Last Supper), Christ gave the command, "do this in remembrance of me." Hence the early Christians in Asia followed a tradition of keeping Passover/Pascha/Lord's Supper on the original date, Nisan 14. These Christians became known as quartodecimans. According to Iranaeus, Polycarp of Smyrna, disciple of the apostle John, kept the Nisan 14 date. In late second century, Bishop Victor of Rome, sought to excommunicate all who followed practice of Pascha on Nisan 14. Polycrates c.190 wrote to Bishop Victor defending the tradition:

"As for us, then, we scrupulously observe the exact day, neither adding nor taking away. For in Asia great luminaries have gone to their rest who will rise again on the day of the coming of the Lord . These all kept the 14th day of the month as the beginning of the Paschal feast, in accordance with the Gospel . Seven of my relatives were bishops, and I am the eighth, and my relatives always observed the day when the people put away the leaven."

[Vic]

Sarah what is the source of the quote for that which you are sourcing?Where is it from? If from A book--please state the book name, with name of author, page number, publisher and date of publishing please. If it is from a website source, please show url, name of the article and where applicable, the author. Thank you.

The quote is talking about observing the post resurrection paschal, not the pre-resurrection paschal aka easter. It's important understand the difference in thinking concerning the day Jesus was crucified and died, was in the grave and rose from the grave. What is being said is that they observed those days-because of the gospel which means the passover as celebrated by the Mosaic Law is not what is meant, and the issue was when to celebrate. The quartodecimans determined to celebrate on the day Christ was crucified. Others celebrated the day Jesus rose which would have been the Sunday. That is why the observance was there from the beginning with the apostles, but the controversy was over the timing of the celebration. Others may have taken the Last Supper throughout the days of celebration.

I am not done researching and have been tied up, but please, present documentation.

If you are going to quote sources it is required you acknowledge that source, so it can be reviewed and discussed, and that's aside from copyright issues. Please see http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.php?tid=222 for information about Abiding Copyright Laws if you are unfamiliar with this issue.

Reagarding Polycarp

Polycarp was not put to death by the 'church' because of the discussion over the date of easter celebrations and the keeping of the Lord's Supper.

He was put to death for refusing to deny Jesus Christ or revile Him, but proclaimed Him instead, and refused to swear by Caesar and the gods. The Christians were being persecuted and taken to the stadium and if they did not worship Caesar and their gods, were either turned over to wild beasts to be killed or beheaded or burned at the stake. . Polycarp was burned at the stake and reportedly stabbed.
http://mb-soft.com/believe/txv/polycar2.htm

[Rose of Shushan]

Great explanation there Vic
Thanks to Sari mentioning some of the church fathers quotes on Easter and the date I did some digging to see the context of the quotes.Like you said the issue seemed to be the day on which they celebrated or remembered ceremoniously his death and resurrection.It seems that the quartodecimans favoured the Nisan fourteen date on which our Lord was crucified as did also many(or all? not sure since have to research it more) in the Asian church.
The church in Rome(again this is what I got from preliminary reading) favoured doing the same celebrations on the first day of the week and thus seemed to have placed more emphasis on the resurrection.
I see the logic in the disentions since the following the jewish calendar means that the day Christ died can fall on any day of the week and wont result in it being Sunday three days after.
By using the roman method one doesnt do it on the fourteenth of Nisan yet it goes on a Friday commemorating the day He died and then 3 days later the sunday when He rose.
Even so the issue seemed to be the day in which they commemorated it and broke their fasts.It is clear that they didnt observe Passover in the old sense at all though.

[sari83]

(04-13-2011 04:53 PM)Vic Wrote:  [color=#1E90FF][b]Sarah what is the source of the quote for that which you are sourcing?Where is it from? If from A book--please state the book name, with name of author, page number, publisher and date of publishing please. If it is from a website source, please show url, name of the article and where applicable, the author. Thank you.

Church History Book V (Eusebius)

Chap. 23
"A question of no small importance arose at that time. For the parishes of all Asia, as from an older tradition, held that the fourteenth day of the moon, on which day the Jews were commanded to sacrifice the lamb, should be observed as the feast of the Saviour's passover."

Chap. 24
"All these observed the fourteenth day of the passover according to the Gospel, deviating in no respect, but following the rule of faith. And I also, Polycrates, the least of you all, do according to the tradition of my relatives, some of whom I have closely followed. For seven of my relatives were bishops; and I am the eighth. And my relatives always observed the day when the people put away the leaven. I, therefore, brethren, who have lived sixty-five years in the Lord, and have met with the brethren throughout the world, and have gone through every Holy Scripture, am not affrighted by terrifying words. For those greater than I have said 'We ought to obey God rather than man."



"And when the blessed Polycarp was at Rome in the time of Anicetus, and they disagreed a little about certain other things, they immediately made peace with one another, not caring to quarrel over this matter. For neither could Anicetus persuade Polycarp not to observe what he had always observed with John the disciple of our Lord, and the other apostles with whom he had associated; neither could Polycarp persuade Anicetus to observe it as he said that he ought to follow the customs of the presbyters that had preceded him."


http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/250105.htm

[Rose of Shushan]

Thanks for pasting those quotes.They do show that the feast of Our Lord's Passover was seperate from the sacrificing of the lamb although done on the same date by the asian churches.

The last supper seems to have the focus on the New Covenant whereas the Passover meal was the focus of the Mosaic one.

Mar 14:22 And as they did eat, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake it, and gave to them, and said, Take, eat: this is my body.
Mar 14:23 And he took the cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them: and they all drank of it.
Mar 14:24 And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.
Mar 14:25 Verily I say unto you, I will drink no more of the fruit of the vine, until that day that I drink it new in the kingdom of God.
Mar 14:26 And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives.
Mar 14:27 And Jesus saith unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered.


If it had been a Passover meal they would not have been able to go out of their dwellings.And the Passover meal was eaten as a family yet the accounts say it was a meal full of men and their wives etc were not present.

Exo 24:4 And Moses wrote all the words of the LORD, and rose up early in the morning, and builded an altar under the hill, and twelve pillars, according to the twelve tribes of Israel.
Exo 24:5 And he sent young men of the children of Israel, which offered burnt offerings, and sacrificed peace offerings of oxen unto the LORD.
Exo 24:6 And Moses took half of the blood, and put it in basons; and half of the blood he sprinkled on the altar.
Exo 24:7 And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient.
Exo 24:8 And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words.
Exo 24:9 Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel:
Exo 24:10 And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.
Exo 24:11 And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.

Note that there we have the blood of the covenant which is sprinkled on the people.Then the people ate and drank thus celebrating with a meal.

In the NT we have

Mar 14:22 And as they did eat, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake it, and gave to them, and said, Take, eat: this is my body.
Mar 14:23 And he took the cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them: and they all drank of it.
Mar 14:24 And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.

Mat 26:26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
Mat 26:27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

1Co 11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.



When Moses sprinkled the blood on the people thatw as to symbolize what the true Lamb of God was to do to procure our salvation.
Isa 52:15 So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider

When Isaiah begins to speak about the Servant and what He would do he starts of by referring back to the original Passover but then says that this time it would not be like the last.
Isa 52:10 The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.
Isa 52:11 Depart ye, depart ye, go ye out from thence, touch no unclean thing; go ye out of the midst of her; be ye clean, that bear the vessels of the LORD.
Isa 52:12 For ye shall not go out with haste, nor go by flight: for the LORD will go before you; and the God of Israel will be your rereward.
As in the original Passover God would be in front and behind them but this time they did not have to leave in haste.

God did not abandon His people.After the destruction of the Temple the people were now unable to fulfil the obligations of the Mosaic Covenant.Yet God established the New one in order to save His people.As the prophet Isaiah kept warning the people were so lost in sin that they could not save themselves.The People repeatedly broke the Covenant and incurred all the curses that Moses had warned them about if they were to break God's law.What was God to do? In His everlasting and boundless mercy He provided a way out through the New Covenant that He promised.

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.


God says there that the people broke the covenant but He promises them a new one that they will keep.The Scripture is clear it is a different one to the old.
To get back to the original topic what we celebrate at Easter/Pascha is this new covenant.
We don’t need to do a seder or kill a lamb because we are living in a new and better covenant.The ceremonial aspects of the thanksgiving meal that replaced the Temple Passover meal are now contained within the bread and wine meal that Jesus introduced at the Last Supper and that the apostles continued to celebrate and call the eucharist.The word eucharist supposedly comes from the greek for thanksgiving.

[Vic]

Good post Rose. I would just note that eucharist is a Catholic church term and may be find in some protestant denominations but it is not normally referred to eucharist by most Christians. Most that I know refer to it as taking Communion or the Lord's Supper.

Eucharist has many elements in Catholic theology that is not accepted as sound doctrine by most non-catholic Christians. Just want to clarify that a bit without taking the thread into further discussion about it here.

[sari83]

Quote Rose-
The last supper seems to have the focus on the New Covenant whereas the Passover meal was the focus of the Mosaic one.
End Quote-

Sari83:
Exactly, I firmly believe Christ taught them that He was the fullment of the Passover and instructed His disciples in every detail of the New Covenant. At the last supper I think He also enjoined them to keep the elements of the feast as He taught them in remembrance of Him. Which would provide an explanation as to why Polycarp and Polycrates continued to keep the "Saviour's Passover."

Quote Rose-
God did not abandon His people.After the destruction of the Temple the people were now unable to fulfil the obligations of the Mosaic Covenant.Yet God established the New one in order to save His people.As the prophet Isaiah kept warning the people were so lost in sin that they could not save themselves.The People repeatedly broke the Covenant and incurred all the curses that Moses had warned them about if they were to break God's law.What was God to do? In His everlasting and boundless mercy He provided a way out through the New Covenant that He promised.
End Quote-

Sari83:
Christ taught His disciples of the coming destruction of the temple. I think he revealed all the proponents of the New Covenant during His 3 1/2 year ministry. There would be no need for the Church of Rome to settle any issues at a later time and no cause for an Easter/Passover controversy because I'm almost certain Christ and His apostles would have already clarified those things.


Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you. (KJV) John 15:15

[Rose of Shushan]

Quote:There would be no need for the Church of Rome to settle any issues at a later time and no cause for an Easter/Passover controversy because I'm almost certain Christ and His apostles would have already clarified those things.

Can you show me where Christ clarified these things?
Since you say you are almost certain then it means that you yourself aren't clear if He clarified them or not right?
Christ didnt reveal many things to do with the Church during His ministry but instead later revealed things through His Holy Spirit.The book of Acts shows this.