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***Vic*** · (This post was last modified: 05-07-2011 04:17 PM by Vic.)

While some would say that the Messiah was not a person, as Christians we believe that the Messianic prophecies are within the writings of the Hebrew Bible and are fulfilled in Jesus Christ.

So, let's look at why we see that fulfillment.

We see the virgin birth prophesied in Genesis 3:15

Gen 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Here's the thing. The 'seed' is normally in reference to mankind being born of the seed of man, not the woman.

For example:

Gen 9:8 And God spake unto Noah, and to his sons with him, saying,
Gen 9:9 And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you;

Gen 15:3 And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.
Gen 15:4 And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
Gen 15:5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.

From the context of verse 3:15, it becomes clear that this 'seed of the woman' was not going to be like others. Not only was He to be the promised Messiah, but the God ordained enmity between Him and the serpent was established and He would fully defeat and destroy the enemy at some time in the future of that prophecy. The reason is, it says that He, meaning the woman's seed, would bruise the serpent on the head, meaning it would kill the serpent.. But the serpent would only bruise the Messiah on the heel, which would not be a deadly blow.

But why would reference to the woman's seed, over a man's seed, even remotely suggest being born of a virgin.

Because of this promise from God Himself:

Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Isa 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

We know that the lineage of the Messiah had to come through David.

Jesus, whose earthly father, Joseph was clearly related to David through Coniah, [Jehoiachin, son of Jehoiakim] and could not sit on the throne of David; according to Jeremeiah 22:24-30. However, Mary, Jesus' mother, was also related to David through Nathan and not via the Jehoiachin lineage.

Jesus was related then to David through Joseph and had the right to sit on the throne of David, as was required to fulfill prophecy. But, because of the curse God put on that lineage of Coniah, Jesus could not be physically related to Joseph, even though He became son to Joseph after He was born. Jesus fufilled the requirements of being physically related to David through Mary, who had been with no man, and therefore He was the seed of the woman.

Many try to say that virgin is not the true meaning, and that Mary was not a virgin, therefore Jesus was just another man with Joseph as His 'real' father.

That of course would eliminate the fulfillment and correlation to the above prophecies and this:

Matt 1:22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, 23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Has the Hebrew word, almah ever been used in the Hebrew Bible, to mean virgin as used in the Isaiah prophecy?

Exo 2:4 And his sister stood afar off, to wit what would be done to him. ...
...7 Then said his sister to Pharaoh's daughter, Shall I go and call to thee a nurse of the Hebrew women, that she may nurse the child for thee? 8 And Pharaoh's daughter said to her, Go. And the maid went and called the child's mother.

Notice the sister is the one now referred to as the maid...

[the maid H5959-almah]

H5959
עלמה
‛almâh
BDB Definition:
1) virgin, young woman
1a) of marriageable age
1b) maid or newly married
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: from H5958

H5959
עלמה
‛almâh
Total KJV Occurrences: 7
maid, 2 Exo_2:8, Pro_30:19
>>>>virgin, 2 Gen_24:43, Isa_7:14
virgins, 2 Son_1:3, Son_6:8>>>>>
damsels, 1 Psa_68:25

Gen 24:15 And it came to pass, before he had done speaking, that, behold, Rebekah came out, who was born to Bethuel, son of Milcah, the wife of Nahor, Abraham's brother, with her pitcher upon her shoulder.
Gen 24:16 And the damsel was very fair to look upon, a virgin, H1330 neither had any man known her: and she went down to the well, and filled her pitcher, and came up.

Gen 24:43 Behold, I stand by the well of water; and it shall come to pass, that when the virgin H5959 cometh forth to draw water, and I say to her, Give me, I pray thee, a little water of thy pitcher to drink;

the damsel H5291

H5291
נערה
na‛ărâh
BDB Definition:
1) girl, damsel, female servant
1a) girl, damsel, little girl
1a1) of young woman, marriageable young woman, concubine, prostitute
1b) maid, female attendant, female servant

a virgin, H1330 neither had any man known her:

a virgin,H1330

H1330
בּתוּלה
bethûlâh
BDB Definition:
1) virgin
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: passive participle of an unused root meaning to separate

H1330
בּתוּלה
bethûlâh
Total KJV Occurrences: 50
virgin, 24
Gen_24:16, Lev_21:3, Lev_21:14, Deu_22:19, Deu_22:23, Deu_22:28, Deu_32:25, 2Sa_13:2, 1Ki_1:2, 2Ki_19:21, Isa_23:12, Isa_37:22, Isa_47:1, Isa_62:5, Jer_14:17, Jer_18:13, Jer_31:4, Jer_31:13, Jer_31:21, Jer_46:11, Lam_1:15, Lam_2:13, Joe_1:8, Amo_5:2
virgins, 14
Exo_22:17, Jdg_21:12, 2Sa_13:18, Est_2:2-3 (2), Est_2:17, Est_2:19, Psa_45:14, Lam_1:4 (2), Lam_1:18, Lam_2:10, Lam_2:21, Amo_8:13
maid, 4
Exo_22:16, Job_31:1, Jer_2:32, Jer_51:22
maidens, 3
Psa_78:63, Psa_148:12, Eze_44:22
maids, 3
Lam_5:11, Eze_9:6, Zec_9:17
maiden, 2
Jdg_19:24, 2Ch_36:17

As we can see, Rebekah, was shown as a virgin, having never been with a man and the use of both almah and bethûlâh were both used in the same passage in reference to her being a virgin.

This is important because of recognising that in the fulfillment of the Genesis and Isaiah prophecies concerning the Messiah being born of a virgin and being the 'seed of the woman.'

Luk 1:27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.

Luk 1:30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
Luk 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
Luk 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Luk 1:34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?

Because of this promise from God Himself:

Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Isa 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

sari83 · (This post was last modified: 05-08-2011 12:32 PM by sari83.)

(05-07-2011 04:13 PM)Vic Wrote: Gen 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

If this passage is to be read literally, does that mean the serpent actually has a seed or lineage?

(05-07-2011 04:13 PM)Vic Wrote: Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Often times on this forum, it is emphasized for a person to read the entire context of the verse. The same thing can be applied to Isaiah 7:14.
Moreover the Lord spoke again to Ahaz, saying,
"Ask a sign for yourself from the Lord your God; ask it either in the depth
or heigth above." But Ahaz said, "I will not ask nor will I test the Lord."
Then he said, "Hear now, O house of David! Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will you weary my god also?
"Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign:"Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel."
"Curds and honey He shall eat, that He may know to refuse the evil and choose the good. "For before the child shall know to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land that you dread shall be forsaken by both her kings."

(05-07-2011 04:13 PM)Vic Wrote: Many try to say that virgin is not the true meaning, and that Mary was not a virgin, therefore Jesus was just another man with Joseph as His 'real' father.

No it does not have to mean that Jesus was just another man. Why couldn't the holy spirit have overshadowed Joseph and Mary? Could not the zeal of the Lord perform this as well?

(05-07-2011 04:13 PM)Vic Wrote: Luk 1:27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.

Luk 1:30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
Luk 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
Luk 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Luk 1:34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?

It is not uncommon for an angel of God to first visit the woman to inform her of the coming miracle of conception. An angel first visited Samson's soon-to-be mother:

"And the Angel of the Lord appeared to the woman and said to her, "Indeed now, you are barren and have borne no children, but you shall conceive and bear a son." Judges 13:3

***Vic*** · 05-08-2011, 03:26 PM

sari83

Quote:If this passage is to be read literally, does that mean the serpent actually has a seed or lineage?

Enmity is hatred. The serpent is despised and hated by most people, because God cursed it.

Seed equal children or descendents...aka when referring to the seed of the serpent, ie, children of disobedience---***spiritually***. Just as Adam and Eve sinned and disobeyed, listening to the serpent's lies instead of God. That sin caused death and separation from God. Those who hate the seed of the woman...that is, Christ and those of Christ, are those who reject Him and are disobedient and do not follow God. Some examples:

Isa 57:1 The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart: and merciful men are taken away, none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil to come.
Isa 57:2 He shall enter into peace: they shall rest in their beds, each one walking in his uprightness.
Isa 57:3 But draw near hither, ye sons of the sorceress, the seed of the adulterer and the *****.
Isa 57:4 Against whom do ye sport yourselves? against whom make ye a wide mouth, and draw out the tongue? are ye not children of transgression, a seed of falsehood,
Isa 57:5 Enflaming yourselves with idols under every green tree, slaying the children in the valleys under the clifts of the rocks?

Mat 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Eph 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Col 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
Col 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
Col 3:7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.

There's Spiritual application Sarah, within the prophecy about the Messiah.

Quote:Often times on this forum, it is emphasized for a person to read the entire context of the verse. The same thing can be applied to Isaiah 7:14.
Moreover the Lord spoke again to Ahaz, saying,
"Ask a sign for yourself from the Lord your God; ask it either in the depth
or heigth above." But Ahaz said, "I will not ask nor will I test the Lord."
Then he said, "Hear now, O house of David! Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will you weary my god also?
"Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign:"Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel."
"Curds and honey He shall eat, that He may know to refuse the evil and choose the good. "For before the child shall know to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land that you dread shall be forsaken by both her kings."

Yes that is true.

And from the thread where you already asked this question and it was answered by Rose, concerning verse 15 > in this post > http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.p...ey#pid6472

Quote:Rose >"In this verse which follows on from 14 where the childs's origins are miraculous and his nature seems to be divine or equal with God,it seems to point out to the humanity of Jesus where He would be like every other child eating normal food.The nature of this food being curds and honey tells us that this was simple food suited to times of poverty so it would mean that either Israel as a whole or the childs family would be in a state of poverty and not abundance.

Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
Heb 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

And the next post #15 Rose again answered the same issue with you.

Quote:6. Before Jesus learned to refuse evil and choose the good was the land forsaken of both her kings?

Isa 7:16
For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.(KJV)

Quote: Rose>In the following verse

Isa 7:3 Then said the LORD unto Isaiah, Go forth now to meet Ahaz, thou, and Shearjashub thy son, at the end of the conduit of the upper pool in the highway of the fuller's field;

we see that Isaiah had his son Shearyashuv with him. In verse 16 I believe that it referred to that child and not to the one in the prophecy.

Shortly after that prophecy was given the two kings Pekah and Rezin were brought to naught.

2Ki 15:29 In the days of Pekah king of Israel came Tiglathpileser king of Assyria, and took Ijon, and Abelbethmaachah, and Janoah, and Kedesh, and Hazor, and Gilead, and Galilee, all the land of Naphtali, and carried them captive to Assyria.
2Ki 15:30 And Hoshea the son of Elah made a conspiracy against Pekah the son of Remaliah, and smote him, and slew him, and reigned in his stead, in the twentieth year of Jotham the son of Uzziah.
and for Rezin

2Ki 16:9 And the king of Assyria hearkened unto him: for the king of Assyria went up against Damascus, and took it, and carried the people of it captive to Kir, and slew Rezin. "

And the post after that by Sheep explained the Issue of Isaiah's son.

>>>>>We aren't going to rehash that thread here any further, Sarah. You said the same things there and rejected the Scriptures. <<<<<<<<<<

Quote:No it does not have to mean that Jesus was just another man. Why couldn't the holy spirit have overshadowed Joseph and Mary? Could not the zeal of the Lord perform this as well?

Quote:It is not uncommon for an angel of God to first visit the woman to inform her of the coming miracle of conception. An angel first visited Samson's soon-to-be mother:

"And the Angel of the Lord appeared to the woman and said to her, "Indeed now, you are barren and have borne no children, but you shall conceive and bear a son." Judges 13:3

Because the Scriptures say otherwise, Sarah. Which I realise you do not believe as true. However, the angel appeared to Joseph as well as Mary.

Matthew 1:18-25 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, ************before they came together, ***********she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.********* 19. Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily.

20. But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. 21. And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

22. *************Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled ***********which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, 23. Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.**************

24. Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:

25. ************ And knew her not **************till************* she had brought forth her firstborn son: ********************and he called his name JESUS.

Exo 13:2 Sanctify unto me all the firstborn, whatsoever openeth the womb among the children of Israel, both of man and of beast: it is mine.

Luk 2:21 And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called JESUS, which was so named of the angel ********before****** he was conceived in the womb.
Luk 2:22 And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord;
Luk 2:23 (As it is written in the law of the Lord, Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord;)

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Luk 1:26 And in the sixth month ***the angel Gabriel was sent from God*** unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,
Luk 1:27 ****To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary. ****
Luk 1:28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
Luk 1:29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.
Luk 1:30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
Luk 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
Luk 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Luk 1:34 ************Then said Mary unto the angel, ***********How shall this be, **********seeing I know not a man?************
Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Rose of Shushan · 05-08-2011, 04:36 PM

Quote:No it does not have to mean that Jesus was just another man. Why couldn't the holy spirit have overshadowed Joseph and Mary? Could not the zeal of the Lord perform this as well?

The Scripture says that it happened to Mary, not Mary and Joseph

Luk 1:34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
Luk 1:36 And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.
Luk 1:37 For with God nothing shall be impossible.

From this I see that Mary makes it clear there that she is a virgin.Then I see that the angel doesn't tell her to marry Joseph and that in due course she would have a son.Instead the angel tellls her how God will bring about the conception and then goes on to tell her of someone else who will also be experiencing a birth with supernatural intervention.

***Vic*** · (This post was last modified: 05-09-2011 12:26 PM by Vic.)

(05-08-2011 04:36 PM)Rose of Shushan Wrote:
Quote:No it does not have to mean that Jesus was just another man. Why couldn't the holy spirit have overshadowed Joseph and Mary? Could not the zeal of the Lord perform this as well?
The Scripture says that it happened to Mary, not Mary and Joseph

Luk 1:34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
Luk 1:36 And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.
Luk 1:37 For with God nothing shall be impossible.

From this I see that Mary makes it clear there that she is a virgin.Then I see that the angel doesn't tell her to marry Joseph and that in due course she would have a son.Instead the angel tellls her how God will bring about the conception and then goes on to tell her of someone else who will also be experiencing a birth with supernatural intervention.

Good thoughts. It so brings to mind Abraham and Sarah, who were both well past in years and laughed because they didn't at first believe God would give them a son. All things really are possible with God. It's unbelief that keeps someone from agreeing with that.

Gen 17:15 And God said unto Abraham, As for Sarai thy wife, thou shalt not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall her name be.
Gen 17:16 And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her.
Gen 17:17 Then Abraham fell upon his face, and laughed, and said in his heart, Shall a child be born unto him that is an hundred years old? and shall Sarah, that is ninety years old, bear?
Gen 17:18 And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee!
Gen 17:19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.

Gen 18:9 And they said unto him, Where is Sarah thy wife? And he said, Behold, in the tent.
Gen 18:10 And he said, I will certainly return unto thee according to the time of life; and, lo, Sarah thy wife shall have a son. And Sarah heard it in the tent door, which was behind him.
Gen 18:11 Now Abraham and Sarah were old and well stricken in age; and it ceased to be with Sarah after the manner of women.
Gen 18:12 Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, After I am waxed old shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?
Gen 18:13 And the LORD said unto Abraham, Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I of a surety bear a child, which am old?
Gen 18:14 Is any thing too hard for the LORD? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.

sari83 · (This post was last modified: 05-09-2011 01:58 PM by sari83.)

(05-08-2011 03:26 PM)Vic Wrote: Seed equal children or descendents...aka when referring to the seed of the serpent, ie, children of disobedience---***spiritually***. Just as Adam and Eve sinned and disobeyed, listening to the serpent's lies instead of God. That sin caused death and separation from God. Those who hate the seed of the woman...that is, Christ and those of Christ, are those who reject Him and are disobedient and do not follow God. There's Spiritual application Sarah, within the prophecy about the Messiah.

So, is the entire statement regarding the seed of the serpent and the seed of the woman spiritual?

(05-08-2011 03:26 PM)Vic Wrote: And from the thread where you already asked this question and it was answered by Rose, concerning verse 15 > in this post > http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.p...ey#pid6472 Rose >"In this verse which follows on from 14 where the childs's origins are miraculous and his nature seems to be divine or equal with God,it seems to point out to the humanity of Jesus where He would be like every other child eating normal food.The nature of this food being curds and honey tells us that this was simple food suited to times of poverty so it would mean that either Israel as a whole or the childs family would be in a state of poverty and not abundance.

I'm not trying to "re-hash" things that have already been discussed. I have re-read Isaiah 7 several times to gain a clearer understanding of the context.

The child eating curds and honey is symbolic and ties in with what the people will eat who are left in the land.

Isiah 7:15
"Curds and honey He shall eat, that he may know to refuse the evil and choose the good."

Isaiah 7:22
"So, it shall be, from the abundance of milk they give, That he will eat curds; For curds and honey everyone will eat who is left in the land."

(05-08-2011 03:26 PM)Vic Wrote: And the next post #15 Rose again answered the same issue with you.

Quote:6. Before Jesus learned to refuse evil and choose the good was the land forsaken of both her kings?

Isa 7:16
For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.(KJV)

[quote] Rose>In the following verse

Isa 7:3 Then said the LORD unto Isaiah, Go forth now to meet Ahaz, thou, and Shearjashub thy son, at the end of the conduit of the upper pool in the highway of the fuller's field;

we see that Isaiah had his son Shearyashuv with him. In verse 16 I believe that it referred to that child and not to the one in the prophecy.

Shortly after that prophecy was given the two kings Pekah and Rezin were brought to naught.

2Ki 15:29 In the days of Pekah king of Israel came Tiglathpileser king of Assyria, and took Ijon, and Abelbethmaachah, and Janoah, and Kedesh, and Hazor, and Gilead, and Galilee, all the land of Naphtali, and carried them captive to Assyria.
2Ki 15:30 And Hoshea the son of Elah made a conspiracy against Pekah the son of Remaliah, and smote him, and slew him, and reigned in his stead, in the twentieth year of Jotham the son of Uzziah.
and for Rezin

2Ki 16:9 And the king of Assyria hearkened unto him: for the king of Assyria went up against Damascus, and took it, and carried the people of it captive to Kir, and slew Rezin. "

The only problem is that to apply this prophecy to the Messiah, it requires chopping up the verses, and not reading the context in its entirety.

YYZ Skinhead · 05-09-2011, 09:11 PM

Virgin births are scientifically possible nowadays in Petri dishes, so why couldn't they be induced supernaturally?

Rose of Shushan · 05-09-2011, 09:23 PM

Quote:So, is the entire statement regarding the seed of the serpent and the seed of the woman spiritual?

Personally I find it to be spiritual otherwise the prophecy becomes about a woman that crushes the head of that serpent and she gets a bruised heel in the process.
Do you see it another way Sari?

sari83 · (This post was last modified: 05-11-2011 10:39 AM by sari83.)

(05-09-2011 09:11 PM)YYZ Skinhead Wrote: Virgin births are scientifically possible nowadays in Petri dishes, so why couldn't they be induced supernaturally?

Was a virgin birth part of the criteria for the Messiah?

When John sends a message inquiring as to whether Jesus is the one, He answers John with specific actions that signal He is the Messiah.

Matt 11:3-5
And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?

4 Jesus answered and said unto them, Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see:

5 The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.KJV

(05-09-2011 09:23 PM)Rose of Shushan Wrote:
Quote:So, is the entire statement regarding the seed of the serpent and the seed of the woman spiritual?

Personally I find it to be spiritual otherwise the prophecy becomes about a woman that crushes the head of that serpent and she gets a bruised heel in the process.
Do you see it another way Sari?

I haven't found a verse where seed (#2233 Zera) is used in a spiritual sense.

But-

There is at least one other time where it's used in reference to a woman:

Gen 16:8-10
And he said, Hagar, Sarai's maid, whence camest thou? and whither wilt thou go? And she said, I flee from the face of my mistress Sarai.

9 And the angel of the Lord said unto her, Return to thy mistress, and submit thyself under her hands.

10 And the angel of the Lord said unto her, I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude.
KJV

Rose of Shushan · 05-11-2011, 01:36 PM

Quote:Was a virgin birth part of the criteria for the Messiah?

Criteria according to whom?