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sari83 · 05-23-2011, 10:32 AM

(05-22-2011 12:50 PM)Vic Wrote: Sarah YOur logic is not working. That would be like saying how could something that happened 6ooo years ago pertain to Christ....but wasnt' written about until about 4000 years ago....Genesis 1:1

Gen 1:1
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. (KJV)

In the beginning....how many years ago did the world begin and exactly how old is the earth? Can you clearly find the answer in Genesis chapter 1 or anywhere in the Bible?

(05-22-2011 12:50 PM)Vic Wrote: In many instances a passage of prophecy can have 1 or 2 verses or more specifically in reference to and pointing to Jesus Christ in amongst other declarations. For example--these are totally about Christ in the midst of other declarations.

Deu 18:15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

Deu 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
Deu 18:19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

Zec 6:12 And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD:
Zec 6:13 Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.

These are perfect examples of prophecies that will take place at a vague point in the future. Whereas Isaiah 7 is specific to the fact that it will take place in the very near future.

(05-22-2011 12:50 PM)Vic Wrote: God with us is more than symbolic. It is the meaning of one of the Names of Messiah that is Jesus Christ. That you don't believe that is your choice. But that is what the Scriptures---inspired by God, state.

Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

"Behold, a virgin shall conceive # 2030

2030 hareh (haw-reh'); or hariy (haw-ree'); from 2029; pregnant:

I thought I'd take a look at other verses were 'hareh' was used. Interestingly, the word is used to denote a woman who's presently pregnant or with child. (There is no future tense implications)

Some examples:

Gen 16:11
And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou [art with child #2030 hareh], and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction. (KJV)

1 Sam 4:19
And his daughter in law, Phinehas' wife, [was with child #2030 hareh], near to be delivered: and when she heard the tidings that the ark of God was taken, and that her father in law and her husband were dead, she bowed herself and travailed; for her pains came upon her. (KJV)

Isa 26:17
Like as a woman [with child #2030 hareh], that draweth near the time of her delivery, is in pain, and crieth out in her pangs; so have we been in thy sight, O LORD. (KJV)

(05-22-2011 12:50 PM)Vic Wrote: You have to actually believe the Scriptures to be of God in order to understand them. That is why you deny them repeatedly and look for all manner of excuses why they can't be true. Because to believe them means you have to believe Christ and who HE IS.

I believe the truth is in the Scriptures. And I don't intentionally look for discrepancies, but I try to reconcile the ones I've found.

I can't prove that the Scriptures have been handled fraudulently because we don't have the orginals. And whomever it was who saw it fit to destroy the original holy documents, God will rightly judge them.

(05-11-2011 02:33 PM)Vic Wrote: That's because you have chosen to not believe the Truth. Every person makes that choice. We have these many warnings, and they are all related to knowing who Jesus Christ is.

1Jn 2:21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jn 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

1Jn 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
1Jn 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
2Jn 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
2Jn 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. [/color]

I think these verses are possibly speaking against the gnostics who believed that Christ was only a spirit, and had not come in the flesh.

I am not denying that Christ came in the flesh. I am denying that a spirit conceived a child in a human being, thus I am denying that God breaks the very laws of nature, that He Himself put into place.

(05-11-2011 02:33 PM)Vic Wrote: Part of your problem Sarah is you like to ignore the passages which would prove you wrong. What did Jesus say--who, according to your statements above must be a liar....But Jesus said, John the Baptist fulfilled those very prophecies including the one about Elijah.

I know what Jesus said about John being Elijah, and that is why I'm trying to reconcile why John would answer no when asked if he was Elijah. I see it as a discrepancy to be resolved.

(05-11-2011 02:33 PM)Vic Wrote: Endless and pointless speculation Sarah. It doesn't matter why he asked. Because you certainly don't know the mindset or reason, nor will you accept anything but your own private interpretation--which goes against the scriptures which you don't believe anyway. But we do know Jesus declared He was the fulfillment of prophecy, the Messiah, and He declared to the people who John really was.

That's an authoritarian viewpoint--No individual may have an interpretation apart from the church:

Is that what the Master said?

Luke 10:25-26
And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? (KJV)

(05-11-2011 02:33 PM)Vic Wrote: NO Sarah, there is no heavy yoke in Christ. Believing the Scriptures which are God's Word to us, is no burden. If you don't believe the Scriptures you cannot believe God. Because He said all Scriptures were given by HIs inspiration. He said no prophecy is of private interpretation--meaning it wasn't just given by vain imagination or personal interpretation. It is fully understood via the understanding by the HOly Spirit.

You are suggesting you just get to pick and choose what you believe in the Scriptures---sort of like a smorg--stuff you don't like you don't take. Stuff you do like you take. That isn't of God. It is an all or nothing belief. If you deny one word of Christ---and for example as you have concerning even who John the Baptist is and what prophecies he fulfilled, you also deny Christ and the prophecies related to Him with John the Baptist.

YOu deny Christ's divinity and because of that you deny, that He is the salvation of GOd, the intercessor, the righteous right arm of God, and many many Scriptures which declare HIm God, and all the prophecies which declare Him. Declare HIm God manifest in the flesh; declare HIm the salvation of God.

There is not one Scripture that suggests you can pick and choose which Scriptures you want to believe as being all you need to believe. God's Word either stands true or it is lies. YOu are saying it holds lies. THerefore it cannot be God's Word for you.

Because God's Word is faithful and true. It is True from cover to cover. Every prophecy is true, and Jesus is the Spirit of prophecy. So you deny any prophecies you then therefore deny Christ.

Is God constrained to a book? I don't think so. His word is present in every part of creation, and is that which proceeds from Him.

Yes, God has given prophecies and written words to mankind, but is that His only means of speaking to us?

I can see the point you are making from the Scripture verses you have chosen below. However, consider that very some book teaches of those who were predestined to know Him.

***Vic*** · 05-23-2011, 12:30 PM

Just a few questions before I take the time to do another circular and pointless posting with you Sarah.

Is there any thing anyone says concerning the Scriptures that you actually believe and call true?

Other than saying the Scriptures hold error and lies and discrepancies, that is? Which is totally false.

Is there anything that is said here, aside from the ones you walk with in agreement who are not Christian---obviously--that you are not going to dismiss, say is wrong, say is inaccurate, out of context, etc?

Since you have claimed to have only studied the OT for 9 years---and really clearly now claim this incredible expertise and understanding that dismisses Biblical truths as fast as they are presented to you, as invalid or whatever other reason you can come up with and imagine, is there any point trying to discuss anything with you?

Obviously unless we agree with your unbelief of the Scriptures and that Jesus was not Divine and God manifest in the flesh, born of virgin and so on, you are going to continue to dismiss all those Scriptures that prove who He IS. Which encompasses a lot of Scriptures--which you must also dismiss. And it has absolutely nothing to do with what the "church" teaches. It has everything to do with the TRUTH of the Scriptures.

But please, do clarify if there is any point pursuing any discussion with you. Because it is you who is walking in and spewing unbelief about Jesus Christ and the Word of God.

Mat 15:18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
Mat 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

Luk 6:43 For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Luk 6:44 For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes.
Luk 6:45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.

Heb 3:10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
Heb 3:11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
Heb 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Heb 3:15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
Heb 3:16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
Heb 3:17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
Heb 3:18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
Heb 3:19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

1Jn 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

sari83 · 05-23-2011, 02:04 PM

(05-23-2011 12:30 PM)Vic Wrote: Just a few questions before I take the time to do another circular and pointless posting with you Sarah.

If I read something and it doesn't fit in with the other pieces to the puzzle, (even if it's in the bible) I'm not afraid to question, and hopefully gain a further understanding. From this, you perceive me as someone whom it is "pointless" to discuss biblical matters with. Obviously, as a believer my stance is not an easy one.

(05-23-2011 12:30 PM)Vic Wrote: Is there any thing anyone says concerning the Scriptures that you actually believe and call true?

Of course there is. I don't think I have been argumentative except in these few areas where the explanations do not satisfy my original questions.

(05-23-2011 12:30 PM)Vic Wrote: Is there anything that is said here, aside from the ones you walk with in agreement who are not Christian---obviously--that you are not going to dismiss, say is wrong, say is inaccurate, out of context, etc??

I haven't been in dialogue with many others here. So, I'm not sure who these non-Christians you are referring to are?! But--what can be seen from my posts is that I certainly don't dismiss all the information that is presented. I see nothing wrong with analyzing the context of what is written, and whether it fits in with all the other pieces. You see it as blasphemy, and so would many others because of the doctrine of biblical inerrancy. (The belief that the Bible has no errors)

(05-23-2011 12:30 PM)Vic Wrote: Since you have claimed to have only studied the OT for 9 years---and really clearly now claim this incredible expertise and understanding that dismisses Biblical truths as fast as they are presented to you, as invalid or whatever other reason you can come up with and imagine, is there any point trying to discuss anything with you?

It is true; I have been greatly blessed with a immensity of time to study over these past 9 years. I don't claim any expertise though. The virgin birth is the only "biblical truth" that I have completely dismissed thus far in our discussions.

(05-23-2011 12:30 PM)Vic Wrote: Obviously unless we agree with your unbelief of the Scriptures and that Jesus was not Divine and God manifest in the flesh, born of virgin and so on, you are going to continue to dismiss all those Scriptures that prove who He IS. Which encompasses a lot of Scriptures--which you must also dismiss. And it has absolutely nothing to do with what the "church" teaches. It has everything to do with the TRUTH of the Scriptures.

The only thing I don't believe is that the Bible as we have it today, in all of it's many translations, is without error.

(05-23-2011 12:30 PM)Vic Wrote: But please, do clarify if there is any point pursuing any discussion with you. Because it is you who is walking in and spewing unbelief about Jesus Christ and the Word of God.

If this is not the place to discuss scriptural matters objectively, I completely understand, and will discontinue in discussions immediately.

One last note, here are some verses in Hebrews that clearly explain who Jesus is, and in simplest terms:

Heb 2:10-18
For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee. And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me. Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.
(KJV)

***Vic*** · 05-23-2011, 06:15 PM

Sarah, when the record was written is dated, historically. I don't care if you believe when. That's totally not the topic here.

Sarah the passage says, a virgin SHALL conceive---it does not say she has conceived already. You need to stop trying to teach and proclaim what you do not know or comprehend.

You said, and I quote, "Interestingly, the word is used to denote a woman who's presently pregnant or with child. (There is no future tense implications)"

Which is of course false.

So Sarah, how come you didn't use the other examples of 2030 hareh which do show future tense for conceive?

H2030
הרי / הרה
hâreh / hârîy
Total KJV Occurrences: 16

child, 12
Gen_16:11, Gen_38:24-25 (2), Exo_21:22, 1Sa_4:19, 2Sa_11:5, 2Ki_8:12, 2Ki_15:16, Isa_26:17, Jer_31:8, Hos_13:16, Amo_1:13

conceive, 3
Jdg_13:5, Jdg_13:7, Isa_7:14
great, 1
Jer_20:17

This is speaking of FUTURE TENSE>

Jdg 13:4 Now therefore beware, I pray thee, and drink not wine nor strong drink, and eat not any unclean thing:
Jdg 13:5 For, lo, thou shalt conceive, and bear a son; and no razor shall come on his head: for the child shall be a Nazarite unto God from the womb: and he shall begin to deliver Israel out of the hand of the Philistines.
Jdg 13:6 Then the woman came and told her husband, saying, A man of God came unto me, and his countenance was like the countenance of an angel of God, very terrible: but I asked him not whence he was, neither told he me his name:
Jdg 13:7 But he said unto me, Behold, thou shalt conceive, and bear a son; and now drink no wine nor strong drink, neither eat any unclean thing: for the child shall be a Nazarite to God from the womb to the day of his death.
Jdg 13:8 Then Manoah intreated the LORD, and said, O my Lord, let the man of God which thou didst send come again unto us, and teach us what we shall do unto the child that shall be born.

But notice the verse prior to the above ones which lead into the proclamation of that future conception...

Jdg 13:3 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto the woman, and said unto her, Behold now, thou art barren, and bearest not: but thou shalt conceive, and bear a son.

H2029
הרה
hârâh
BDB Definition:
1) to conceive, become pregnant, bear, be with child, be conceived, progenitor
1a) (Qal) to conceive, become pregnant
1b) (Pual) to be conceived
1c) (Poel) to conceive, contrive, devise
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: a primitive root
Same Word by TWOT Number: 515

conceive H2029
הרה
hârâh
Total KJV Occurrences: 43

conceived, 34
Gen_4:1, Gen_4:17, Gen_16:4-5 (3), Gen_21:2, Gen_25:21, Gen_29:32-35 (4), Gen_30:5, Gen_30:7, Gen_30:17, Gen_30:19, Gen_30:23, Gen_38:3-4 (2), Gen_38:18, Exo_2:2, Num_11:12, 1Sa_2:20-21 (2), 2Sa_11:5, 2Ki_4:17, 1Ch_7:23, Job_3:3, Psa_7:14, Son_3:4, Hos_1:3 (2), Hos_1:6, Hos_1:8, Hos_2:5

conceive, 4 Jdg_13:3, Job_15:35, Isa_33:11, Isa_59:4

child, 2 Gen_19:36, Isa_26:18

bare, 1 1Ch_4:17
conceiving, 1 Isa_59:13
progenitors, 1 Gen_49:26

So your first argument was that there was no prophecy about a virgin for the Messiah and then it became that virgin wasn't the proper word and never used in that manner. Which was shown absolutely false..

When shown it has been and was used for virgin by clear example of Rebekah, you neither acknowledge that information or utilise it. You merely toddle on to now saying conceive couldn't possibly be future tense and specifically in that verse regarding Messianic prophecy, because hareh has never been used in the future tense. Which is absolutely false.

You deny Jesus being the Son of God but rather just the son of Joseph, meaning you deny that He is the only begotten of God. And that He is God manifest in the flesh. That's a lot of Scriptures you are dumping. As you have been repeatedly shown and which doing so means you reject them and Him as Truth. From Prophecies to what Christ Himself said and what was recorded in the Gospels--the written record of Christ on earth.

I can't wait for your response to be something that suggests, 'shall' conceive doesn't mean in the future either.

Sarah, the Scriptures are Truth. They aren't just there for you to find some nugget of truth in. They are in fact True already. Any discrepancies you claim to have found are because you deny the Scriptures as being true. I have read the Scriptures and studied them many many years. They are true and Truth. I find no discrepancies. In fact, just so you may garner a little understanding, there is a huge difference in not understanding something versus denying it is true. It can take time to gain the understanding, but it only happens if we actually believe God inspired those same Scriptures.That you deny that is clear, so please don't claim you believe there is truth in them, because you don't. It's like being pregnant. You can't be a little bit pregnant. You either are or you aren't. The Scriptures are either truth and True or they are not.

Psa 119:160 Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

The problem is Sarah, you think you can pick and choose what to believe is of God. And my point repeatedly to you---who gets to choose what is or is not of God. Because I believe it all of God and you say it's not all of God or that it is falsehood, or not to be believed as true---therefore....who gets to know which is of God? Apparently you think you can decide it's not all true, and I get to know it is all true. And someone else can decide something else....

I don't believe what you present as truth about these things whatsoever. Your fruit says otherwise. So what you say needs to be called false. It does not stand the test of Scripture.

I believe the Word of God to be true. Inspired by and protected by God for the written record for us from Genesis 1 to the end of Revelation. You pick and choose bits and pieces and tear apart the rest. So your statement that you think there's truth in the Scriptures is a blatant error. It's either all true Sarah or it's all false. Because there can be no other course to take.

2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Does it occur to you that the original documents were so well used and copied that they simply wore out? And the ones preserved by God ---were in fact exactly as God intended for the Scriptures for us? Probably not.

I know. The conspiracy of the lying scribes and all that spew ad nauseum. No provable documentation-as you say-- but it must be so because so and so said it is so, imagined it was so, proclaimed it was so, therefore it is so....like the folly of bede...

You have no documentation to prove that the Scriptures were handled fraudulently yet you willingly speculate it must have been so because you don't wish to believe they could be true. It's that simple. You don't want them to be true because then the path of doctrine and beliefs you have chosen doesn't wash. It doesn't stand the test of the Scriptures you attempt to overthrow and overturn and dismiss and call into question. That's your choice. Unbelief gets it's full and complete reward.

Quote:I think these verses are possibly speaking against the gnostics who believed that Christ was only a spirit, and had not come in the flesh.

I am not denying that Christ came in the flesh. I am denying that a spirit conceived a child in a human being, thus I am denying that God breaks the very laws of nature, that He Himself put into place.

ROFL You really are grasping at straws and false doctrine Sarah. You don't believe THE RECORD of the Scriptures regarding Jesus Christ and who He IS, therefore, you don't believe who He is. Therefore those Scriptures apply to any who reject who Christ is-according to the written record.

The laws of 'nature" Sarah? Who created this law of nature?> Didn't God create the heavens and earth, creatures, man, rain, the seasons, etc. Isn't HE in control of those things. Maybe read some Psalms for understanding...

Sarah, God created Adam from "of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

After that, God created Eve, "the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; 22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman,"

From then on, Adam and Eve conceived children together. They had sex, to make it real clear for you. But they were not formed by someone else having sex and having a child. God CREATED them.

We also see God took::
Abraham and Sarah --who was beyond having children--meaning she was barren and sterile--and made her with child. Gen 11:30

We see: Manoah and wife: Judges 13

She was barren, yet God sent an angel and said she would conceive.

We see Elizabeth barren: Luke 1:7

But she bore John> Luke 1:11-80

Read Psalm 113:9

God overturned the 'law of nature' of barrenness and sterility' and these women conceived. In fact with Sarah, the Lord returned to make her conceive at a particular time. Read the Scriptures about it.

Now many think that the sons of God who bare children with the daughters of men, Genesis 6-were angels--spiritual beings---who kept not their first estate...so can spiritual create or make babies---apparently so.

God appeared as a pillar of fire, a burning bush, a thundering cloud, and yet He could not possibly cause the spiritual and miraculous conception of the Messiah? One would then be considering God is not a God of miracles and could not have created the heavens and earth either...

You apparently view God as a liar because God said in the many passages I have posted in the various threads---that all things are possible with God. You disagree with God about that. You say God can't do all things.

Can the Spiritual create the heavens and the earth and all creatures including man= God did that. And God is Spirit.

You deny even who God is and what He is able to do. NOTHING is impossible with God. Except to those wrapped in unbelief. And unbelief will receive it's just rewards.

Mar 10:27 And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.

Gen 18:13 And the LORD said unto Abraham, Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I of a surety bear a child, which am old?
Gen 18:14 Is any thing too hard for the LORD? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.

Luk 18:27 And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.

Isa 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
Isa 5:21 Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!
Isa 5:22 Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink:
Isa 5:23 Which justify the wicked for reward, and take away the righteousness of the righteous from him!

That's the thing Sarah. If you deny the Scriptures to be true in their entirety, if you say some scriptures are true about the Messiah but others aren't you are calling good evil. You are taking the truth of the Scriptures and calling it lies....the truth of Christ and calling it lies.

Quote:I know what Jesus said about John being Elijah, and that is why I'm trying to reconcile why John would answer no when asked if he was Elijah. I see it as a discrepancy to be resolved.

Sarah, there is no discrepancy. It's all in your own messed up imagination. I can't think of another way to say it. John's purpose was not fully revealed to him. Yet he knew that it was Jesus he was preparing the way for when he saw Him. You ask and speculate in endless ways that cause you to disbelieve the Scriptures, because you don't believe them to be true in the first place. You look at them without trust, therefore they will never and can never be of God to you.

God's Word is His revelation to us. Just as the prophecies that declared Christ---all about what God had declared to us. You deny it as truth. How many times have I said if you deny one prophecy--you deny them all. Because every recorded prophecy and specifically concerning Christ is either of God---or they are all not of God.

Quote:That's an authoritarian viewpoint--No individual may have an interpretation apart from the church:

Is that what the Master said?

Luke 10:25-26
And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? (KJV)

That is blatantly absurd. Stating that to believe the Word of God is authoritarian. And that what I am about or believe is the church??? LOL What do I consistently point you to Sarah? The SCRIPTURES! Not some denomination or church. THE WORD OF GOD, which you deny, so therefore you have to come up with your own doctrines which overturn those Scriptures. We believe it to be true. You believe it to be false. So you build your own doctrine based on vanity of imagination and your "logic" and " reasoning". Guess what. We are to walk by faith, not our own imaginations and perceived rightness or wisdom. You have said some harsh things towards churches and Christians yet, the Christians I know believe God's Word and believe who Jesus Christ is according to the Scriptures. YOU do not. And you do not base your beliefs on the Word of God.

2Co 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

1Co 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

1Co 3:18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
1Co 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
1Co 3:20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.

Job 15:35 They conceive mischief, and bring forth vanity, and their belly prepareth deceit.

Eph 4:17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
Eph 4:18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

What did Jesus say to that lawyer who was trying to tempt Him, when he answered him Sarah? He said he had answered rightly--meaning there was a right and a wrong answer. And the right and sound doctrine is found in the Scriptures. But you have to believe them to start with. And you don't. So you are building on sinking sand.

Quote:These are perfect examples of prophecies that will take place at a vague point in the future. Whereas Isaiah 7 is specific to the fact that it will take place in the very near future.

False. There is no specific time mentioned when the prophecy about "a virgin shall conceive" It was a future prophecy of the Messiah. You just don't believe it. It gets a little redundant having to say it. It did in fact take place hundreds of years later. But you don't believe that either. You prefer your imaginary version of Scripture to Scriptural Truth.

Quote:Is God constrained to a book? I don't think so. His word is present in every part of creation, and is that which proceeds from Him.

Yes, God has given prophecies and written words to mankind, but is that His only means of speaking to us?

I can see the point you are making from the Scripture verses you have chosen below. However, consider that very some book teaches of those who were predestined to know Him.

Oh please Sarah. Your arguments are all over the place. God gave His written Word so we would have the written record of Him, His creation, His purpose for mankind, His Salvation, His Messiah, His mercy, His love.....it's about Him. Jesus opened the apostles understanding so they might understand the Scriptures and see all the prophecies concerning Christ from Genesis onward. The NT was written so we might know the Truth of the Gospel and know how to live for CHrist--the foundation layed by the apostles because of Christ and the leading of the Holy Spirit. There is no other record given. No imagination. NO new revelation--which is what you are about. No doctrine that can be called of Christ unless it can stand the test of the doctrine within that written record. That's reality Sarah--which you reject.

He gave us the written record so people like yourself could not just make up whatever doctrine they liked, but that all doctrine must stand the test of Scripture. The Scriptures are God's Word, inspired by Him, written by many authors throughout many ages and cohesively reveals Christ and salvation and eternal life to all.

I am just about to these Scriptures in dealing with you Sarah.

2Ti 2:14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.
2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
2Ti 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
2Ti 2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;

Tit 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
Tit 3:10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
Tit 3:11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

Everyone who comes to Christ is known before by Him---no surprise. The Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world. God's is omniscient, omnipotent etc. He has no beginning and no end. He knows everything Sarah. Even about your unbelief and rejection of who Jesus Christ is. Every person who accepts Jesus Christ is predestined to have eternal life. And your point is what? That God knows who would believe Him and who wouldn't. No surprise there. And so if some are made for honor and some to dishonor by Almighty God.

Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Job 40:2 Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it.

***Vic*** · 05-23-2011, 06:58 PM

(05-23-2011 02:04 PM)sari83 Wrote: If I read something and it doesn't fit in with the other pieces to the puzzle, (even if it's in the bible) I'm not afraid to question, and hopefully gain a further understanding. From this, you perceive me as someone whom it is "pointless" to discuss biblical matters with. Obviously, as a believer my stance is not an easy one.

Sarah it isn't a puzzle or a riddle. It's the Word of God which we receive understanding of from the Holy Spirit. We have to believe it first or it will never be clear. or make sense or be true to us. You don't believe it to be true therefore stumble over verse after verse--to your own destruction.

Sarah, if you don't receive what is said from the Scriptures it becomes unedifying after awhile to repeat and repeat again things that the person receiving is not hearing but rather covering their ears and rejecting it. You clearly and repeatedly reject who Christ is and deceive yourself into thinking that doesn't impact your understanding of other passages. It's truly a dominoe effect. And it is the very foundation of belief to know WHO Christ is.

Your stance is being a believer of your own doctrine Sarah. It is not the Scriptural doctrine or doctrine of Christ. That's the difference. And don't even try to play me about the cost of being a believer. I well know the cost of someone living for Jesus Christ. As do all those who walk according to the Gospel. You do not because you do not know Jesus of the Scriptures. You have another gospel and another Jesus--which you don't call Jesus anyway...but that's another thread isn't it.

If you truly were seeking Truth, there would be evidence in what you say in response to Scriptures. THis is an apologetics forum for a reason Sarah.

Quote:Of course there is. I don't think I have been argumentative except in these few areas where the explanations do not satisfy my original questions.

Well I would strongly disagree with that Sarah. The explanations are given fully and Scripturally and clearly. You refuse the Scriptures and the truths they hold concerning Christ. That's the bottom line.

Quote:I haven't been in dialogue with many others here. So, I'm not sure who these non-Christians you are referring to are?! But--what can be seen from my posts is that I certainly don't dismiss all the information that is presented. I see nothing wrong with analyzing the context of what is written, and whether it fits in with all the other pieces. You see it as blasphemy, and so would many others because of the doctrine of biblical inerrancy. (The belief that the Bible has no errors)

Sarah, I wasn't meaning specifically people here. Actually for the most part you don't acknowledge what is said but merely appear to dismiss what is presented and move on to another perceived 'discrepancy' or error' or untruth....The problem with the pieces of your puzzle is that they don't fit the 'puzzle' within the True Word of God. They belong to another. Sarah, the Bible doesn't have errors--it was inspired by God. Even in translation from one language to the next, the Truth is there. Your problem is you get all bunched up over a word, instead of understanding what is being said. Because you don't wish to believe what is in the Scriptures.

For example you don't want to believe this:

1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

The second man is referring to Jesus Christ who is what????? The LORD from heaven.

Why don't you want to believe it? Because that means Jesus is divine, and God manifest in the flesh....which means the Scriptures concerning the virgin birth etc must be all true...but you believe them all lies...

1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Yes I know. We've been here and done that and you reject it all. Which is precisely my point. One denial topples verse after verse.

Quote:It is true; I have been greatly blessed with a immensity of time to study over these past 9 years. I don't claim any expertise though. The virgin birth is the only "biblical truth" that I have completely dismissed thus far in our discussions.

Sarah, my point about the 9 years was not a pat on the back. You literally know nothing in the scheme of things. But you determine you know, when in fact you don't know. Part of the fruit of the Spirit is Truth and abiding the Word of God. You don't abide the Word of God. It's the Sword of the Spirit--it's how we see truth and error. And you reject it. You reject the written record of Christ, the propehcy to Mary and Joseph, the overshadowing of the Holy Spirit to the virgin Mary--all Scriptural record, and the prophecy concerning the virgin birth....and that topples the divinity of Christ and so much more. So you see, you have dismissed far more than one phrase called the "virgin' birth".

Quote:The only thing I don't believe is that the Bible as we have it today, in all of it's many translations, is without error.

You also don't believe what is in it Sarah. Nor do you believe God or what Christ said. That's reality.

(05-23-2011 12:30 PM)Vic Wrote: But please, do clarify if there is any point pursuing any discussion with you. Because it is you who is walking in and spewing unbelief about Jesus Christ and the Word of God.

Quote:If this is not the place to discuss scriptural matters objectively, I completely understand, and will discontinue in discussions immediately.

[/color]

Don't try and play me Sarah. This is a discussion forum and the Scriptures are discussed continually. Your issue is you don't believe the Scriptures. Unless you can make them fit your "logic' and reasoning and "wisdom'. You deny the Scriptures so you actually discussing them and hearing what they say is what is at odds. You can't say you are here to discuss them and then start saying they aren't true or have discrepancies and errors and have been handled fraudulently although with no proof of such....they are true and the discrepancy is--you don't believe that for a second. There's the rub.

Quote:One last note, here are some verses in Hebrews that clearly explain who Jesus is, and in simplest terms:\\\

Would you like me to again list all the Scriptures that show Jesus as God manifest in the flesh? That show His divinity? That show His being made in the flesh....and why?

Not likely ...we've already been there done that.

Rose of Shushan · (This post was last modified: 05-23-2011 07:03 PM by Rose of Shushan.)

Quote:"Behold, a virgin shall conceive # 2030

2030 hareh (haw-reh'); or hariy (haw-ree'); from 2029; pregnant:

I thought I'd take a look at other verses were 'hareh' was used. Interestingly, the word is used to denote a woman who's presently pregnant or with child. (There is no future tense implications)

Harah in that verse is an adjective(denoting being pregnant or with child) not a verb so your statement that there's no future tense associated with it shows that you maybe weren’t aware of this.
The verb to do with conceiving would become hartah and is illustrated in the following verse

Gen 16:4 And he went in unto Hagar, and she conceived(vatahar): and when she saw that she had conceived(hartah), her mistress was despised in her eyes.

וַיָּבֹא אֶל-הָגָר, וַתַּהַר; וַתֵּרֶא כִּי הָרָתָה, וַתֵּקַל גְּבִרְתָּהּ בְּעֵינֶיהָ

In the following Judges verse we the harah being associated with a future conception.

Jdg 13:5 For, lo, thou shalt conceive, and bear a son; and no razor shall come on his head: for the child shall be a Nazarite unto God from the womb: and he shall begin to deliver Israel out of the hand of the Philistines.

כִּי הִנָּךְ הָרָה וְיֹלַדְתְּ בֵּן

It says ki hinach hara v'yuladt ben
Now there the harah is clearly future since in the preceding verse we see that the woman is barren

Jdg 13:3 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto the woman, and said unto her, Behold now, thou art barren, and bearest not: but thou shalt conceive, and bear a son.

Rose of Shushan · 05-23-2011, 08:24 PM

Quote:I am not denying that Christ came in the flesh. I am denying that a spirit conceived a child in a human being, thus I am denying that God breaks the very laws of nature, that He Himself put into place.

By that same logic would you also deny other things that happened in the Bible that also seem to go against the laws of nature?
For example Abraham and Sarah were well beyond child bearing years when God said
Gen 17:16 And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her.
Gen 17:17 Then Abraham fell upon his face, and laughed, and said in his heart, Shall a child be born unto him that is an hundred years old? and shall Sarah, that is ninety years old, bear?

I suppose there you would say that God is breaking laws of nature.
I don't see God as breaking anything.God created us and created nature and He does with His creation what He wants.

Jesus demonstrated many times His control over nature.He changed water into wine, healed the sick, created eyes for a man born blind, showed control over the sea and wind and also over death itself as in the resurrection of Lazarus.

sari83 · 05-24-2011, 12:40 AM

(05-23-2011 06:15 PM)Vic Wrote: So Sarah, how come you didn't use the other examples of 2030 hareh which do show future tense for conceive?

H2030
הרי / הרה
hâreh / hârîy
Total KJV Occurrences: 16

child, 12
Gen_16:11, Gen_38:24-25 (2), Exo_21:22, 1Sa_4:19, 2Sa_11:5, 2Ki_8:12, 2Ki_15:16, Isa_26:17, Jer_31:8, Hos_13:16, Amo_1:13

Here are all the verses that use hareh' #2030 according to Englishman's concordance:

Gen 16:11
And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child (hareh #2030), and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction. (KJV)

Gen 38:24
And it came to pass about three months after, that it was told Judah, saying, Tamar thy daughter in law hath played the harlot; and also, behold, she is with child (hareh #2030)by whoredom. And Judah said, Bring her forth, and let her be burnt. (KJV)

Gen 38:25
When she was brought forth, she sent to her father in law, saying, By the man, whose these are, am I with child (hareh #2030): and she said, Discern, I pray thee, whose are these, the signet, and bracelets, and staff. (KJV)

Exod 21:22
If men strive, and hurt a woman with child (#2030 'hareh), so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. (KJV)

1 Sam 4:19
And his daughter in law, Phinehas' wife, was with child ('hareh #2030), near to be delivered: and when she heard the tidings that the ark of God was taken, and that her father in law and her husband were dead, she bowed herself and travailed; for her pains came upon her. (KJV)

2 Sam 11:5
And the woman conceived, and sent and told David, and said, I am with child. (hareh #2030) (KJV)

II Ki 8:12
And Hazael said, Why weepeth my lord? And he answered, Because I know the evil that thou wilt do unto the children of Israel: their strong holds wilt thou set on fire, and their young men wilt thou slay with the sword, and wilt dash their children, and rip up their women with child (#2030 hareh). (KJV)

II Ki 15:16
Then Menahem smote Tiphsah, and all that were therein, and the coasts thereof from Tirzah: because they opened not to him, therefore he smote it; and all the women therein that were with child (#2030 hareh') he ripped up. (KJV)

Job 3:3
Let the day perish wherein I was born, and the night in which it was said, There is a man child conceived (#2030 hareh'). (KJV)

Isa 7:14
Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive (hareh' #2030), and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. KJV

Isa 26:17
Like as a woman with child (hareh #2030), that draweth near the time of her delivery, is in pain, and crieth out in her pangs; so have we been in thy sight, O LORD. (KJV)

Isa 26:18
We have been with child (hareh #2030), we have been in pain, we have as it were brought forth wind; we have not wrought any deliverance in the earth; neither have the inhabitants of the world fallen. (KJV)

Jer 31:8
Behold, I will bring them from the north country, and gather them from the coasts of the earth, and with them the blind and the lame, the woman with child (hareh #2030) and her that travaileth with child together: a great company shall return thither. (KJV)

Hosea 13:16
Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child (#2030 hareh) shall be ripped up. (KJV)

Amos 1:13
Thus saith the LORD; For three transgressions of the children of Ammon, and for four, I will not turn away the punishment thereof; because they have ripped up the women with child (#2030 hareh) of Gilead, that they might enlarge their border: (KJV)

(05-23-2011 06:15 PM)Vic Wrote: When shown it has been and was used for virgin by clear example of Rebekah, you neither acknowledge that information or utilise it. You merely toddle on to now saying conceive couldn't possibly be future tense and specifically in that verse regarding Messianic prophecy, because hareh has never been used in the future tense. Which is absolutely false.

Rebekah is called a betulah' when referring to her virginity, and she is called almah in reference to her age. (since almah means a young woman.)

(05-23-2011 06:15 PM)Vic Wrote: The problem is Sarah, you think you can pick and choose what to believe is of God. And my point repeatedly to you---who gets to choose what is or is not of God. Because I believe it all of God and you say it's not all of God or that it is falsehood, or not to be believed as true---therefore....who gets to know which is of God? Apparently you think you can decide it's not all true, and I get to know it is all true. And someone else can decide something else.....

I can find the virgin birth in only 2 out of the 27 books of the new testament. If it is imperative to understanding who Christ is, shouldn't some of the other NT writers have elaborated, and also explained this in their letters to the new believers? Why does Hebrews chapter 2 state that Christ took on the seed of David, and in all ways was made like his brethen?

(05-23-2011 06:15 PM)Vic Wrote: That is blatantly absurd. Stating that to believe the Word of God is authoritarian. And that what I am about or believe is the church?

I clearly said the idea that a person cannot interpret the Scriptures on an individual level (apart from the interpretation that has been given to them by a man-made authority i.e. church or leadership) is an authoritarian viewpoint.

sari83 · 05-24-2011, 12:44 PM

(05-23-2011 06:15 PM)Vic Wrote:
Quote:Is God constrained to a book? I don't think so. His word is present in every part of creation, and is that which proceeds from Him.

Yes, God has given prophecies and written words to mankind, but is that His only means of speaking to us?

I can see the point you are making from the Scripture verses you have chosen below. However, consider that very some book teaches of those who were predestined to know Him.

[color=#1E90FF][b]Oh please Sarah. Your arguments are all over the place. God gave His written Word so we would have the written record of Him, His creation, His purpose for mankind, His Salvation, His Messiah, His mercy, His love.....it's about Him. Jesus opened the apostles understanding so they might understand the Scriptures and see all the prophecies concerning Christ from Genesis onward. The NT was written so we might know the Truth of the Gospel and know how to live for CHrist--the foundation layed by the apostles because of Christ and the leading of the Holy Spirit. There is no other record given. No imagination. NO new revelation--which is what you are about. No doctrine that can be called of Christ unless it can stand the test of the doctrine within that written record. That's reality Sarah--which you reject.

Here is the point I was making in the "Is God constrained to a book?" statement: You say that a person cannot and does not know God or Christ unless they believe that everything written in the bible is perfect without error, untainted, although it has been through the imperfect hands of men many times over and the book itself is a compilation of a collection of books and letters put through a canonization process by a council of men.
My question remains....Is God constrained to a book?
Helen Keller, a heroic woman who was deaf and blind, yet gave witness to the fact that she knew God even before she knew any words.
So, I certainly do believe God is migthy powerful. Creation itself bears witness of his power and magnificence.

***Vic*** · 05-24-2011, 04:37 PM

Sarah, 2030 is used precisely as I showed you. That you wish to deny it is clear. Strong's was fully a compilation of all words used in the KJV, when and where and how. That you cannot accept that is obvious. I listed all the Scriptures connected in KJV with 2030. Deny them if you want. Deny it shows future tense if you want. Deny Christ and who He is, if you want. That is entirely up to you.

You say you aren't argumentative, and yet here, when confronted with actual provable facts, and instead of being gracious and saying, I missed that, or didn't understand, no, what do you do. Attempt to dismiss the FACTS. Denial is not a river in Egypt Sarah. You don't want the truth. It's that simple.

Quote:Rebekah is called a betulah' when referring to her virginity, and she is called almah in reference to her age. (since almah means a young woman.)

That's called wresting and perverting the scriptures to your own destruction. As was clearly shown in my prior post regarding Rebekah...almah is defined as and means virgin also...

Quote:Has the Hebrew word, almah ever been used in the Hebrew Bible, to mean virgin as used in the Isaiah prophecy?

Exo 2:4 And his sister stood afar off, to wit what would be done to him. ...
...7 Then said his sister to Pharaoh's daughter, Shall I go and call to thee a nurse of the Hebrew women, that she may nurse the child for thee? 8 And Pharaoh's daughter said to her, Go. And the maid went and called the child's mother.

Notice the sister is the one now referred to as the maid...

[the maid H5959-almah]
H5959
עלמה
‛almâh
BDB Definition:
1) virgin, young woman
1a) of marriageable age
1b) maid or newly married
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: from H5958

H5959
עלמה
‛almâh
Total KJV Occurrences: 7
maid, 2 Exo_2:8, Pro_30:19
>>>>virgin, 2 Gen_24:43, Isa_7:14
virgins, 2 Son_1:3, Son_6:8>>>>>
damsels, 1 Psa_68:25

Gen 24:15 And it came to pass, before he had done speaking, that, behold, Rebekah came out, who was born to Bethuel, son of Milcah, the wife of Nahor, Abraham's brother, with her pitcher upon her shoulder.
Gen 24:16 And the damsel was very fair to look upon, a virgin, H1330 neither had any man known her: and she went down to the well, and filled her pitcher, and came up.

Gen 24:43 Behold, I stand by the well of water; and it shall come to pass, that when the virgin H5959 cometh forth to draw water, and I say to her, Give me, I pray thee, a little water of thy pitcher to drink;

the damsel H5291

H5291
נערה
na‛ărâh
BDB Definition:
1) girl, damsel, female servant
1a) girl, damsel, little girl
1a1) of young woman, marriageable young woman, concubine, prostitute
1b) maid, female attendant, female servant

a virgin, H1330 neither had any man known her:

a virgin,H1330

H1330
בּתוּלה
bethûlâh
BDB Definition:
1) virgin
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: passive participle of an unused root meaning to separate

H1330
בּתוּלה
bethûlâh
Total KJV Occurrences: 50
virgin, 24
Gen_24:16, Lev_21:3, Lev_21:14, Deu_22:19, Deu_22:23, Deu_22:28, Deu_32:25, 2Sa_13:2, 1Ki_1:2, 2Ki_19:21, Isa_23:12, Isa_37:22, Isa_47:1, Isa_62:5, Jer_14:17, Jer_18:13, Jer_31:4, Jer_31:13, Jer_31:21, Jer_46:11, Lam_1:15, Lam_2:13, Joe_1:8, Amo_5:2
virgins, 14
Exo_22:17, Jdg_21:12, 2Sa_13:18, Est_2:2-3 (2), Est_2:17, Est_2:19, Psa_45:14, Lam_1:4 (2), Lam_1:18, Lam_2:10, Lam_2:21, Amo_8:13
maid, 4
Exo_22:16, Job_31:1, Jer_2:32, Jer_51:22
maidens, 3
Psa_78:63, Psa_148:12, Eze_44:22
maids, 3
Lam_5:11, Eze_9:6, Zec_9:17
maiden, 2
Jdg_19:24, 2Ch_36:17

As we can see, Rebekah, was shown as a virgin, having never been with a man and the use of both almah and bethûlâh were both used in the same passage in reference to her being a virgin.

Notice the definition of almah, Sarah????? It means VIRGIN also.
H5959
עלמה
‛almâh
BDB Definition:
1) virgin, young woman
1a) of marriageable age
1b) maid or newly married
Part of Speech: noun feminine

Since you want to claim that almah was just referring to "her age" allow me to post in the passage to show it was meaning no such thing--as has already been shown to you. But you are not argumentative are you? or reject the Scriptures do you?

Your determination to reject Scriptural truth shows fruit that is not of God.

Here's the reason Abraham's servant went looking for a a wife for Isaac:

Gen 24:2 And Abraham said unto his eldest servant of his house, that ruled over all that he had, Put, I pray thee, thy hand under my thigh:
Gen 24:3 And I will make thee swear by the LORD, the God of heaven, and the God of the earth, that thou shalt not take a wife unto my son of the daughters of the Canaanites, among whom I dwell:
Gen 24:4 But thou shalt go unto my country, and to my kindred, and take a wife unto my son Isaac.
Gen 24:5 And the servant said unto him, Peradventure the woman will not be willing to follow me unto this land: must I needs bring thy son again unto the land from whence thou camest?

Gen 24:7 The LORD God of heaven, which took me from my father's house, and from the land of my kindred, and which spake unto me, and that sware unto me, saying, Unto thy seed will I give this land; he shall send his angel before thee, and thou shalt take a wife unto my son from thence.
Gen 24:8 And if the woman will not be willing to follow thee, then thou shalt be clear from this my oath: only bring not my son thither again.
Gen 24:9 And the servant put his hand under the thigh of Abraham his master, and sware to him concerning that matter.

Gen 24:10 And the servant took ten camels of the camels of his master, and departed; for all the goods of his master were in his hand: and he arose, and went to Mesopotamia, unto the city of Nahor.
Gen 24:11 And he made his camels to kneel down without the city by a well of water at the time of the evening, even the time that women go out to draw water.
Gen 24:12 And he said, O LORD God of my master Abraham, I pray thee, send me good speed this day, and shew kindness unto my master Abraham.
Gen 24:13 Behold, I stand here by the well of water; and the daughters of the men of the city come out to draw water:
Gen 24:14 And let it come to pass, that the damsel to whom I shall say, Let down thy pitcher, I pray thee, that I may drink; and she shall say, Drink, and I will give thy camels drink also: let the same be she that thou hast appointed for thy servant Isaac; and thereby shall I know that thou hast shewed kindness unto my master.
Gen 24:15 And it came to pass, before he had done speaking, that, behold, Rebekah came out, who was born to Bethuel, son of Milcah, the wife of Nahor, Abraham's brother, with her pitcher upon her shoulder.

Gen 24:16 And the damsel was very fair to look upon, a virgin, neither had any man known her: and she went down to the well, and filled her pitcher, and came up.
Gen 24:17 And the servant ran to meet her, and said, Let me, I pray thee, drink a little water of thy pitcher.
Gen 24:18 And she said, Drink, my lord: and she hasted, and let down her pitcher upon her hand, and gave him drink.
Gen 24:19 And when she had done giving him drink, she said, I will draw water for thy camels also, until they have done drinking.
Gen 24:20 And she hasted, and emptied her pitcher into the trough, and ran again unto the well to draw water, and drew for all his camels.
Gen 24:21 And the man wondering at her held his peace, to wit whether the LORD had made his journey prosperous or not.
Gen 24:22 And it came to pass, as the camels had done drinking, that the man took a golden earring of half a shekel weight, and two bracelets for her hands of ten shekels weight of gold;

Allow me to break it down for you yet again:

the damsel
damselH5291
H5291
נערה
na‛ărâh
BDB Definition:
1) girl, damsel, female servant
1a) girl, damsel, little girl
1a1) of young woman, marriageable young woman, concubine, prostitute
1b) maid, female attendant, female servant
Part of Speech: noun feminine

a virgin H1330
בּתוּלה
bethûlâh
BDB Definition:
1) virgin
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: passive participle of an unused root meaning to separate

neither >H3808
לה / לוא / לא
lô' / lôh
BDB Definition:
1) not, no
1a) not (with verb - absolute prohibition)
1b) not (with modifier - negation)
1c) nothing (substantive)
1d) without (with particle)
1e) before (of time)
Part of Speech: adverb

had any man>H376
אישׁ
'îysh
BDB Definition:
1) man
1a) man, male (in contrast to woman, female)
1b) husband
1c) human being, person (in contrast to God)
1d) servant
1e) mankind
1f) champion
1g) great man
2) whosoever
3) each (adjective)
Part of Speech: noun masculine

known >H3045
ידע
yâda‛
BDB Definition:
1) to know
...
1a3) to know (a person carnally)
...Part of Speech: verb

So we can see, that the damsel, Rebekah, being of marrying age, was fair to look upon, a virgin---meaning having never had sex with a man--and no man had ever known her. So here we have the definitive proof Rebekah was of marrying age and was still a what? A VIRGIN.

Gen 24:23 And said, Whose daughter art thou? tell me, I pray thee: is there room in thy father's house for us to lodge in?
Gen 24:24 And she said unto him, I am the daughter of Bethuel the son of Milcah, which she bare unto Nahor.
Gen 24:25 She said moreover unto him, We have both straw and provender enough, and room to lodge in.
Gen 24:26 And the man bowed down his head, and worshipped the LORD.
Gen 24:27 And he said, Blessed be the LORD God of my master Abraham, who hath not left destitute my master of his mercy and his truth: I being in the way, the LORD led me to the house of my master's brethren.
Gen 24:28 And the damsel ran, and told them of her mother's house these things. ...

damselH5291
H5291
נערה
na‛ărâh
BDB Definition:
1) girl, damsel, female servant
1a) girl, damsel, little girl
1a1) of young woman, marriageable young woman, concubine, prostitute
1b) maid, female attendant, female servant
Part of Speech: noun feminine

Damsel showing, based on the other information in the passage and context, that she was a young woman of of marrying age.

Gen 24:33 And there was set meat before him to eat: but he said, I will not eat, until I have told mine errand. And he said, Speak on.
Gen 24:34 And he said, I am Abraham's servant.
Gen 24:35 And the LORD hath blessed my master greatly; and he is become great: and he hath given him flocks, and herds, and silver, and gold, and menservants, and maidservants, and camels, and asses.
Gen 24:36 And Sarah my master's wife bare a son to my master when she was old: and unto him hath he given all that he hath.
Gen 24:37 And my master made me swear, saying, Thou shalt not take a wife to my son of the daughters of the Canaanites, in whose land I dwell:
Gen 24:38 But thou shalt go unto my father's house, and to my kindred, and take a wife unto my son.
Gen 24:39 And I said unto my master, Peradventure the woman will not follow me.
Gen 24:40 And he said unto me, The LORD, before whom I walk, will send his angel with thee, and prosper thy way; and thou shalt take a wife for my son of my kindred, and of my father's house:
Gen 24:41 Then shalt thou be clear from this my oath, when thou comest to my kindred; and if they give not thee one, thou shalt be clear from my oath.

Gen 24:42 And I came this day unto the well, and said, O LORD God of my master Abraham, if now thou do prosper my way which I go:
Gen 24:43 Behold, I stand by the well of water; and it shall come to pass, that when the virgin cometh forth to draw water, and I say to her, Give me, I pray thee, a little water of thy pitcher to drink;
Gen 24:44 And she say to me, Both drink thou, and I will also draw for thy camels: let the same be the woman whom the LORD hath appointed out for my master's son.
...Gen 24:57 And they said, We will call the damsel, and enquire at her mouth.
Gen 24:58 And they called Rebekah, and said unto her, Wilt thou go with this man? And she said, I will go.

when the virgin cometh forth to draw water,

virgin H5959
עלמה
‛almâh
BDB Definition:
1) virgin, young woman
1a) of marriageable age
1b) maid or newly married
Part of Speech: noun feminine

Was Rebekah a virgin----YES as was already shown in the verse 16, which says what? "a virgin, neither had any man known her". Was she a young woman? YES. Was she of marrying age? YES, as was shown in the passage where she herself said Yes to going with the servant. The very definition of almah says what???? 1) VIRGIN,YOUNG WOMAN....... therefore not a little girl or child.

Here's another verse using almah as virgins> Son 6:8 There are threescore queens, and fourscore concubines, and virgins without number.

Your protests to Scriptural truths and the total refusal to accept what is being said is mind boggling. You are so determined to deny who Christ is, no matter the cost, that you cannot and will not accept Truth. That is fully your choice.

Quote:I can find the virgin birth in only 2 out of the 27 books of the new testament. If it is imperative to understanding who Christ is, shouldn't some of the other NT writers have elaborated, and also explained this in their letters to the new believers? Why does Hebrews chapter 2 state that Christ took on the seed of David, and in all ways was made like his brethen?

Sarah, you have already asked this and it has been answered many times in many ways and in many threads. You just don't appear to listen nor receive what is said. Believers get it Sarah.

1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

It's all there. The prophecies, the fulfillment of them. The prophecy from Isaiah 7:14, fulfilled within 2 books of the NT----3 witnessess if you will, recording the written record. One verse prophecy fulfilled in many verses within 2 books of the NT. And in those passages in the NT--it gives all the details necessary to believe and understand that. You choose to deny it. It's that simple. There were MANY witnesses to the events. You just don't believe them. If it was not true, then we would see correction of that truth from the apostles. They don't need to refute or expand on something that is Truth and very clearly explained already. The NT writers declared Christ's divinity and who He IS. All of which you reject. The prophecies declare who He is and you deny them.

You appear to know nothing about Christ and why He came in the flesh. Fully man and fully God, the Son of God. Yet you fight tooth and nail against the very truths you now ask about. But you aren't really asking are you? Because you have already rejected those very explanations given to you. As you say, you dismissed the virgin birth.....and all that pertains to it. Which excludes God and His only begotten Son and all those verses too... Hebrews was not the only passage which presents the Son of Man...But, regardless, here are some Scripture's about why Jesus came via Abraham's and David's seed...which you can again dismiss...ignore and/or argue against meaning what they mean....

Psa 89:3 I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant,
Psa 89:4 Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations. Selah.

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Isa 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Isa 55:3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.
Isa 55:4 Behold, I have given him for a witness to the people, a leader and commander to the people.

Jer 33:20 Thus saith the LORD; If ye can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season;
Jer 33:21 Then may also my covenant be broken with David my servant, that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the priests, my ministers.

2Ch 21:7 Howbeit the LORD would not destroy the house of David, because of the covenant that he had made with David, and as he promised to give a light to him and to his sons for ever.

2Ch 13:5 Ought ye not to know that the LORD God of Israel gave the kingdom over Israel to David for ever, even to him and to his sons by a covenant of salt?

Psa 132:11 The LORD hath sworn in truth unto David; he will not turn from it; Of the fruit of thy body will I set upon thy throne.
Psa 132:12 If thy children will keep my covenant and my testimony that I shall teach them, their children shall also sit upon thy throne for evermore.

Psa 132:17 There will I make the horn of David to bud: I have ordained a lamp for mine anointed.
Psa 132:18 His enemies will I clothe with shame: but upon himself shall his crown flourish.

Luk 1:30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
Luk 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
Luk 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Php 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Php 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
Php 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Php 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Isa 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
Isa 42:2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.
Isa 42:3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.
Isa 42:4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.
Isa 42:5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
Isa 42:7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.
Isa 42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.
Isa 42:9 Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them.

Isa 53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
Isa 53:2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
Isa 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Isa 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Heb 1:3 [/b] Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; [/b]
Heb 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
Heb 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
Heb 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Rom 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:
Rom 15:9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.

Quote:I clearly said the idea that a person cannot interpret the Scriptures on an individual level (apart from the interpretation that has been given to them by a man-made authority i.e. church or leadership) is an authoritarian viewpoint.

Sarah it is about SCRIPTURAL TRUTH. Not everything that came from the "church' or leadership is false or to be rejected. Else one has to not only reject Jesus Christ, but what the apostles taught and left written record of. Oh, I just realised, that is exactly what you are rejecting... The sound doctrine each are to have individually MUST be able to stand the test of Scriptures from which we obtain said sound doctrine---from the Word of God ie the Scriptures. You wouldn't even know about God if it wasn't for the Scriptures being preserved by God and it being His revelation to mankind.

2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.