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Exposing the heretics within...
05-31-2011, 02:25 PM (This post was last modified: 05-31-2011 02:32 PM by sari83.)
Post: #11
RE: Exposing the heretics within...
(05-29-2011 08:37 PM)Vic Wrote:  They thought they had crept in unawares...

I wouldn't call openly expressing ideas "creeping in unawares"

(05-29-2011 08:37 PM)Vic Wrote:  Sari83 was reading their 'stuff' from April 2009 and then joined that forum formally on Dec 23, 2009, and posted not 10 posts, as she said when dismissing any real involvement in a prior query, but 28 posts.

It had been quite awhile since I logged on to that forum when you asked me that question, so excuse me for not recalling the exact number of posts I had there. It's really not diabolical. Just highly blown out of proportion.

Also--

Yahu is found as a suffix in numerous Hebrew names, so it's not exactly made up, is it? And, to clear the record, you have asked that all members here use the English names of God and Jesus.

(05-29-2011 08:37 PM)Vic Wrote:  In fact, Bill and Sarah know each from that forum, having dialogued to/with each other on that forum. Setting aside they have the same ips, [actually the same two ips consistently, which normally happens when coming from the same address, as we have seen in the case of family members who posted here, although from different computers] and which Sara merely dismissed as a non issue, the fact is, that Mo MHuintir aka Bill Kinney and sari83 have believed the same junk.

Yes, I know Bill in real life, I'll go ahead and provide an answer for a question you never even asked.

I have no idea how any of this relates to any of the discussions I've had on this forum. It seems as though you are using this as some sort of deterrent.

(05-29-2011 08:37 PM)Vic Wrote:  And lest we forget Ne'aryah, aka timothydix...also spewing the same sacred name junk, the same yahuah, and working the same threads...and there a few others I suspect have similar agendas...

Unconnect the dots on this one...




(05-30-2011 02:21 PM)YYZ Skinhead Wrote:  I am fairly certain everyone reading this knows the Ten Commandments, so no need to list them all in this thread, but isn't stealing somebody's identity for the purpose of slamming them, false witness and theft? I used to do this constantly on forums to people I didn't like.

There are websites such as seekgod.com (copyright 1997) and seekgod.org. Seeking god seems to be a fairly generalized concept.....

Also--

'Seek and 'God aren't exactly personal names either.
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05-31-2011, 04:20 PM (This post was last modified: 05-31-2011 09:18 PM by Vic.)
Post: #12
RE: Exposing the heretics within...
(05-31-2011 02:25 PM)sari83 Wrote:  
(05-29-2011 08:37 PM)Vic Wrote:  They thought they had crept in unawares...

I wouldn't call openly expressing ideas "creeping in unawares"

>>>> actually Sarah the point was you know each other but made every effort to not allow that to be openly shown. Being honest isn't always about what a person says, but what their actions are. And the heresies and denunciation of the Word of God and Scriptural Truths and denial of such that are found with both of you, including Bill's website, which I am quite sure you have been too, shows a spiritual condition that warrants separation from you. You receive nothing, but wallow in error and unbelief and spout things fully contrary to Scripture.

(05-29-2011 08:37 PM)Vic Wrote:  Sari83 was reading their 'stuff' from April 2009 and then joined that forum formally on Dec 23, 2009, and posted not 10 posts, as she said when dismissing any real involvement in a prior query, but 28 posts.

Quote:It had been quite awhile since I logged on to that forum when you asked me that question, so excuse me for not recalling the exact number of posts I had there. It's really not diabolical. Just highly blown out of proportion.


>>> Sarah you were reading that forum long before you joined. You were reading their 'stuff' from April 2009 and then joined the forum formally forum on Dec 23, 2009, and posted not 10 posts but 28 posts through to March, 2010. And you posted many posts to the same threads Bill did. So please don't bother to try to play me on this or anything else. Whether or not you stayed on there doesn't really matter because your doctrine says where you are at in relation to all that you were posting in agreement to. Including dismissing the apostles Paul's writings, ---and I quote--- "I have never taken them to heart."

No kidding Sarah. Personally, what all can clearly see, is you haven't taken any of the Scriptures to heart because you don't believe them.


Quote:Also--Yahu is found as a suffix in numerous Hebrew names, so it's not exactly made up, is it? And, to clear the record, you have asked that all members here use the English names of God and Jesus.

Don't go there Sarah. The made up names you are using are just that. They are not found in the Hebrew. But that topic is over for you here now, as well.

(05-29-2011 08:37 PM)Vic Wrote:  In fact, Bill and Sarah know each from that forum, having dialogued to/with each other on that forum. Setting aside they have the same ips, [actually the same two ips consistently, which normally happens when coming from the same address, as we have seen in the case of family members who posted here, although from different computers] and which Sara merely dismissed as a non issue, the fact is, that Mo MHuintir aka Bill Kinney and sari83 have believed the same junk.

Quote:Yes, I know Bill in real life, I'll go ahead and provide an answer for a question you never even asked.

Sarah, you dismissed the issue of the same ips and said you were "on a shared network". You could just as easily have said you have the same address. But you didn't.

Quote:I have no idea how any of this relates to any of the discussions I've had on this forum. It seems as though you are using this as some sort of deterrent.

Somehow you aren't coming across as angelic as you might think. Sarah when people come on the forum and diseminate trash doctrine, denying the Scriptures, the messianic prophecies, the virgin birth being part of that, deny who Jesus Christ is, and they reflect each others doctrine, as it says in the forum rules---

"Blasphemy will not be tolerated. Those not of the Christian faith are welcome to become members but, need to keep it very clearly in their mind that derogatory remarks about God, Jesus Christ or the Holy Spirit, in any language, are not to be used as expletives or interjections or in an abusive, mocking, or insulting way . The same for hate based remarks about Christianity. It is solely at the admin discretion to not only delete those types of things, but possibly permanently ban the poster, with or without warnings. That goes also for any filth concerning the Bible. If you don't believe it, then please ask questions, but be aware that we believe the Bible to be the Word of God and it is not to be taken lightly. We also believe it is the standard to which we weigh beliefs, doctrines, ideas and behaviors.

Don't become a member to Spam us with your: doctrine, errant beliefs,
.... Promotion of beliefs contrary to Scripture or what we understand to be Christian beliefs may/will be allowed to a certain point. That is, if someone brings in another gospel and another Jesus, it may be discussed Biblically and exposed for what it is. It will not be allowed to sit unchallenged to Scriptural Truth. It may also be discontinued as a discussion. "


You see Sarah, you resist everything said to you, and go to ridiculous lengths to reject Scriptural truth.. And that says you aren't here to discuss but diseminate your beliefs, the same way that Bill and Nearyah have been here to diseminate their junk doctrine. And there comes a point where it is no longer edifying or of any use to pursue topics with such closeminded individuals as you three are. You receive nothing because you cannot accept the Scriptures as true, and because you believe nothing in the Scriptures as true, except your perversion and twisting of some which you use for your own purposes. That's fine. But I suggest that you can now go and enjoy company with Bill on his new forum. Apparently the one connected to his website wasn't useful at all, so now this attempt.


(05-29-2011 08:37 PM)Vic Wrote:  And lest we forget Ne'aryah, aka timothydix...also spewing the same sacred name junk, the same yahuah, and working the same threads...and there a few others I suspect have similar agendas...

Unconnect the dots on this one...

>>>> No. because the connection is there with the yahuah name issue. I don't care if you don't 'work' together'. You are connected with doctrine. And I am more than sure, in fact, fully confident, he will be welcomed with open arms on Bill's forum.


(05-30-2011 02:21 PM)YYZ Skinhead Wrote:  I am fairly certain everyone reading this knows the Ten Commandments, so no need to list them all in this thread, but isn't stealing somebody's identity for the purpose of slamming them, false witness and theft? I used to do this constantly on forums to people I didn't like.

There are websites such as seekgod.com (copyright 1997) and seekgod.org. Seeking god seems to be a fairly generalized concept.....

Also--

'Seek and 'God aren't exactly personal names either.

Sarah being obtuse isn't a flattering attribute. Bill said very obviously when he started the forum, it was in direct opposition to SeekGod.ca... and calling it Seekgod.US was totally with intent to utilise the merits and identity of my forum and website, and attempt to counter it. That he mentioned it clearly in his so called Introduction shows intent. That he made up false accusations---that doesn't even bother you does it? To you it's all good. So be it. Your character shines through, just like Bill's.

Well you just run along then, Sarah. Be with those of likeminds, because we are not likeminded with you, because we believe Jesus Christ and the Scriptures to be True and you do not. Everybody makes choices and you have made yours. Go and help Bill build his little cult based on your 'logic'[which is not logic] and "analytical mind" instead of the Truth of the Word of God and Jesus Christ.

BTW, don't even try to suggest, as Bill falsely claims, that we stifle dialogue or censor you or anyone else. You have over 130 posts of junk. You have been given every leeway to come to understanding of God's Word, but you refuse it. You were given many many questions which you and Bill and Nearyah totally sidestepped, ignored or dismissed in posts that answered your spew. It's you people who cannot dialogue or discuss what is presented. Which shows the level of beliefs you hold.


Amo 3:3 Can two walk together, except they be agreed?

2Co 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

1Jn 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Vic
SeekGod.ca

3John 1:4 I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth.
Isaiah 40:31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.
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05-31-2011, 10:46 PM
Post: #13
RE: Exposing the heretics within...
(05-30-2011 04:28 AM)Mary Wrote:  Vic, I appreciate how much you put into this site. Smiley-score010

It is something that I have noticed since I started posting here, that 2 or sometimes more, posters come on around the same time with the same sort of agenda, almost like a 2 or 3 pronged attack. Nevertheless I am still surprised when they turn out to be actually connected. Did they decide together to post on the site, as a planned, co-ordinated effort. I guess we will never know.

Stirthepot
(05-30-2011 01:37 AM)Deborah446 Wrote:  People do not always know when they are doing such things...

<< John 16 >>
King James Version
1These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended. 2They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service. 3And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me. 4But these things have I told you, that when the time shall come, ye may remember that I told you of them. And these things I said not unto you at the beginning, because I was with you.

Lot's of deep brainwashing in the world. These things must come to pass. Is striving about the law necessary for unity?

<< Titus 3 >>
King James Version
1Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work, 2To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men. 3For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. 4But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. 8This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men. 9But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. 10A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; 11Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

<< 1 Corinthians 3 >>
let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
King James Version
1And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 2I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. 3For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? 4For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

5Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? 6I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. 7So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. 8Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour. 9For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.

10According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

16Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

18Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. 19For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness. 20And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain. 21Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours; 22Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours; 23And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.

Hi Deborah,

I haven't had a chance to welcome you yet - so welcome!

I admit to being curious about your post. In presenting these verses in the context of your question:


Lot's of deep brainwashing in the world. These things must come to pass. Is striving about the law necessary for unity? and your statement:
"People do not always know when they are doing such things..."
I confess to being confused about what you mean Could you clarify please,as your position does not seem clear? Thanks.
I confess to being confused about what you mean Could you clarify please,as your position does not seem clear? Thanks.[/color]
<< John 16 >> that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.

Matthew 15:
8This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

9But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

10And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand: 11Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.

Mark 16

5Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. 17And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

19So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. 20And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.


<< 2 Timothy 3 >>
King James Version
1This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. 2For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 4Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; 5Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. 6For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, 7Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 8Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. 9But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.



10But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,11Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me. 12Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. 13But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. 14But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.


<< Hebrews 12 >>
King James Version
1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

3For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.

4Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

5And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:

6For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

7If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. 9Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? 10For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness. 11Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

12Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees; 13And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.

14Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: 15Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled; 16Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. 17For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

18For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, 19And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more: 20(For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart: 21And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quakeSmile 22But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

25See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven: 26Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. 27And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. 28Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: 29For our God is a consuming fire.

<< Hebrews 12 >>
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05-31-2011, 11:44 PM
Post: #14
RE: Exposing the heretics within...
(05-31-2011 04:20 PM)Vic Wrote:  Sarah the point was you know each other but made every effort to not allow that to be openly shown. Being honest isn't always about what a person says, but what their actions are. And the heresies and denunciation of the Word of God and Scriptural Truths and denial of such that are found with both of you, including Bill's website, which I am quite sure you have been too, shows a spiritual condition that warrants separation from you. You receive nothing, but wallow in error and unbelief and spout things fully contrary to Scripture.

There was no effort to hide anything. If there was a requirement for people who join the forum to make an open announcement stating whether they know any of the other members, that should be clarified. I didn't see anything regarding that in the forum rules.

(05-29-2011 08:37 PM)Vic Wrote:  Including dismissing the apostles Paul's writings, ---and I quote--- "I have never taken them to heart."

I actually remember this discussion. This statement should be put in its correct context. It is a response to a question concerning how women view Paul's writings that say women should be silent in church, and only learn from their husbands. However, my response is that I never took those sayings to heart; Especially in light of 1 cor. 11 which speaks of women prophesying in public.

(05-29-2011 08:37 PM)Vic Wrote:  Sarah, you dismissed the issue of the same ips and said you were "on a shared network". You could just as easily have said you have the same address. But you didn't.

The "shared network" comment is the exact truth. I would have felt more comfortable if you'd directed the questions about the personal details of my life in a private message.

(05-29-2011 08:37 PM)Vic Wrote:  Well you just run along then, Sarah. Be with those of likeminds, because we are not likeminded with you, because we believe Jesus Christ and the Scriptures to be True and you do not. Everybody makes choices and you have made yours. Go and help Bill build his little cult based on your 'logic'[which is not logic] and "analytical mind" instead of the Truth of the Word of God and Jesus Christ.

In all truth, everything that I've read in the scriptures and learned in my life, teaches me that you have to actually know a person in real life to judge their works, and see their real life actions.

(05-29-2011 08:37 PM)Vic Wrote:  You have over 130 posts of junk. You have been given every leeway to come to understanding of God's Word, but you refuse it. You were given many many questions which you and Bill and Nearyah totally sidestepped, ignored or dismissed in posts that answered your spew. It's you people who cannot dialogue or discuss what is presented. Which shows the level of beliefs you hold.

When I posted on the threads you'd created, such as the virgin birth, I assumed that they were open to be freely discussed and my intentions were to share my viewpoint, and clearly explain my thoughts and considerations on the matters. I tried my best to answer all of the questions presented to me, and to answer things reasonably. I highly appreciate those who took the time to respond civily and respectfully.

Honestly, I am not offended by the personal attacks and insults. I know that you and others on this forum are being true to your beliefs. I'm thankful for the time I spent here. I wish the best to all of you.
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06-03-2011, 03:16 PM
Post: #15
RE: Exposing the heretics within...
Sarah, every forum has issues where if someone joins, they are given one account. To have two people with identical ips--not just one, but two identical ips usually means someone is trying to run two aliases on a forum. You were given opportunity to explain yourself. And your arm does not appear too broken to have been unable to post a reply via an email or pm, since you are quite capable of having posted lengthy and over 130 posts. So the onus is on you to have replied appropriately. Most duplicate accounts are deleted and the person banned. I was giving you and "MO" the opportunity to clarify you have the same address as well as the same network. No big deal. Simple as pie to clarify.

And quite frankly, in your responses, you never actually address the heart of the issue, but sidestep and redirect. You are quite proficient at it. Because in your response about knowing bill, the statement you were responding too and quoted was about being in doctrinal agreement and having read his website etc. Which fully stands to reason.


Quote:I actually remember this discussion. This statement should be put in its correct context. It is a response to a question concerning how women view Paul's writings that say women should be silent in church, and only learn from their husbands. However, my response is that I never took those sayings to heart; Especially in light of 1 cor. 11 which speaks of women prophesying in public.

That topic was such, yes. But you said, you never took Paul's writings to heart. Not those specific ones only. And quite frankly you don't believe them. Because you deny his writings--and that has been proven throughout this forum--such as :

Phil 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

1Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.


And that's aside from all the other doctrine and Scripture you reject as truth.


Quote:The "shared network" comment is the exact truth. I would have felt more comfortable if you'd directed the questions about the personal details of my life in a private message.

As noted above, there was nothing keeping you from contacting me and clarifying this issue privately. BUt you have never been private on the net with those who use 'yahuah'. Have you? And quite frankly you have presented a lot of 'private' information out on the net, that anyone can pick up if they so choose.

Sarah, You have never been 'private' on the internet. You have been more than open about yourself and where you are at. Except sometimes on here. For example, and anyone can read this stuff out on the internet:


nazarite.net "book of life' guestbook.
Entry: #679
Full Name: Sarah Valdes
Location: Tennessee
Referred: From a Link
Favorite: Messianic Judaism
Comments: It's great to see how Yahuah is delivering his people from darkness. I'm so thankful to have been freed by the power of truth. May you be blessed for delivering such a powerful message of truth in the name of Yahuah!
Sunday, April 12th 2009 - 09:41:18 AM

Followers of Yah guestbook
April 7th 2009 10:58:44 PM
What is your name? Sarah
How did you find this website? searching on google for others who use the true name Yahuah
Where are you from? TN
What information is most helpful on this site?
The false armageddon and the imposter I find thoroughly interesting and insightful. The study on the feasts and how the spring feasts have been fulfilled was something I hadn't realized before and was very helpful.
Please enter your comments? How great it is to find people truly following Yahushua and speaking the truth that can only be found in his word. Shalom
email::: ***same as you use here with your full name


And please notice you were on Followers of Yah before nazarite.net

So please, spare us the concept that you were being private. And that is aside from what can be gleaned by what you have openly posted in the tribute, and what you, yourself have volunteered in this forum.


Quote: In all truth, everything that I've read in the scriptures and learned in my life, teaches me that you have to actually know a person in real life to judge their works, and see their real life actions.

Well, Sarah, in all truth, the Scriptures say we are to use righteous judgment which comes from using the Word of God to discern between good and evil, truth and error. Trying the spirits is a spiritual issue based on what a person believes or rejects or denies. Jesus did not say we have to personally know a person physically--being in the same room ---we are knowing you physically via the words you write and what you convey to us. If you are being straightforward, we can discern who you are based on your doctrine you present here. That's why we are to present ourselves clearly and say things honest before others.

Mat 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
Mat 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
Mat 12:33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
Mat 12:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
Mat 12:35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.

Mat 3:10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.


Luk 6:43 For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Luk 6:44 For every tree is known by his own fruit.
For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes.
Luk 6:45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.


The fruit is evident in a person by what they say/write and what they believe. You deny the truth of the Scriptures and who Jesus Christ is. Therefore your fruit is known and shown. That is a choice you have made.


Quote:When I posted on the threads you'd created, such as the virgin birth, I assumed that they were open to be freely discussed and my intentions were to share my viewpoint, and clearly explain my thoughts and considerations on the matters. I tried my best to answer all of the questions presented to me, and to answer things reasonably. I highly appreciate those who took the time to respond civily and respectfully.

Honestly, I am not offended by the personal attacks and insults. I know that you and others on this forum are being true to your beliefs. I'm thankful for the time I spent here. I wish the best to all of you.

Nice try Sarah. All threads are intended for discussion, hence the 'discussion forum'. However, allowing heresies to be posted and hence refuted is part of what this forum is about, and it also means we are held to account to the Scriptures about how long to allow false doctrine to be diseminated by such as yourself, and when it is no longer of use or edifying to anyone. That's why you were given the opportunity to reveal your 'fruit'. And you did show your heresies and did it without batting an eye at the scriptures you reject.

Being held accountable to the Scriptures is not a personal attack Sarah. It is part of proving all things, refuting, rebuking, correcting with the Word of God and facts. Being direct about such things isn't readily liked. That you don't like it, and want to be perceived as a victim of unfair or unkind refutations, doesn't change it is a necessary part of standing in defense of the Truth of Jesus Christ and the Word of God.

You don't need to be condescending to us poor Christians who are just doing all this against you because we are just duped into our errant beliefs. You did not answer the majority of the refutations Sarah. Oh you did post, but you totally, in most cases, were proficient in ignoring, dismissing, sidestepping, and redirecting to another idea and concept--I think your word would be you manipulated the discussions--or attempted to. Believe me when I say, if I were to list all the questions you were asked and totally did not answer, or the scriptures and facts---we could start a whole new thread dedicated to that and have it go many pages. And just as you tried to make this thread something different than what it is about.


Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Vic
SeekGod.ca

3John 1:4 I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth.
Isaiah 40:31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.
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06-11-2011, 02:48 PM
Post: #16
RE: Exposing the heretics within...
I wonder if most of the Hebrew Roots doctrine-spreaders who invade this site claim kosher, since they seem to be very fond of SPAM®.

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07-15-2011, 06:22 PM
Post: #17
RE: Exposing the heretics within...
I just discovered this today: out of the nine total members on the false Seekgod forum, one-third are the trifecta mentioned in this thread. Ecomcity

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07-16-2011, 12:27 AM
Post: #18
RE: Exposing the heretics within...
James 5: 19 - 20

Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Phillipians 4:23 "The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen."
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06-25-2012, 08:37 PM
Post: #19
RE: Exposing the heretics within...
(06-25-2012 07:31 PM)corecrash Wrote:  It seems I have come late to the fire :-). I can't really call myself an adherent to the HRM or Messianic movements. I've been reading some over the past few weeks (That's what brought me to your site) and trying to find the Truth. I don't mean that in a worldly way because obviously the Truth is in the bible. I just believe it's in the entire bible.

I won't pretend one bit. I believe some of what they say, at least so far as my understanding allows me to. There are a lot of verses in the bible, I don't have them memorized, so I came here to get other views because I could be wrong. So I'd say, if I read just the bible then I'd say I lean towards some of their beliefs.

However, some of the things I have read about them, IE: that some have sacrifices, that they claim certain men are the two witnesses in the NT, or that we must do it just like the Talmud etc. I'm not on board with that stuff.

I've been to a local Messianic congregation here in Columbus ohio, Beth Messiah, which is a mix of Jewish and Christian folks. The jewish people wear their prayer shawls and skull caps, and the "gentiles" do not. Here are the things that I have found I like about this congregation.

I love that they read the scriptures word for word both new and old testament. I love the music as it seems to be more geared towards praising God than a show or concert of worship music. I especially love that after the service they sit down to a meal and fellowship and seem to be celebratory.

What I don't like about this congregation. There seems to be a very distinct separation in their mind between Jews and Gentiles. This really struck me as odd because in the scriptures (NT) it says there is no jew or gentile and to me genealogies should not matter. I mean if it came up in conversation between two people after they became friends that's not such a big deal, but it seemed to be the first thing out each persons mouth. "Are you a Jew or a Gentile?"

I also think they adhere to some Rabbinical laws that I don't find in the bible. Though, thus far, they have said that it's up to each person how they do this. IE: some wear the skull cap, which is purely Rabbinical, but I overheard the leadership tell someone that it was no biblical and that each person had a choice.

I know their stated mission is to the Jews and to bring Jews to Jesus for which they say they have ordered their worship to be just like a Jewish synagogue in terms of reading from the "Torah". In them I don't really see what I see you claiming of some of these folks. They teach A LOT from the new testament which indicates to me they give just as much authority to both OT and NT.

A little about my background. I was saved maybe 12 years ago, I could say I was saved before that but I don't really think I took any of it to heart because I just kept on sinning like I did before I claimed I was saved with no thought of God at all.

I've attended Vineyard of Columbus on and off for about 9 years but though I kept going, I always had something telling me something was missing. Something was just not right. Worship is like a concert and trying to make friends there is like trying to get someone to wash my car. No one seems interested. Maybe it's because it's so big.

Prior to Vineyard I attended a place called NorthWest Bible Church where I played bass on the worship team. I wasn't able to forge friendships there either and of the one friendship I did find, it was a situation where he just wanted to use me for what I had.

So I won't apologize for learning towards some of the interpretation of the Messianic movement (for lack of a better term), but I will tell you that I'm very open to correction if it's warranted. If I resist one some things, it's only because I see the word for what it is.

For instance saying that an enemy creeps in to deceive the saints is not proof that the Moral Law of God was abolished and the HRM are devils, it just means that since you disagree with them, you think they are devils.

I'm sure they would turn and say the exact same thing that you say about them. They probably think that disavowing the Law are of devils too. So I try to get to the root. Of course anyone who has a different doctrine that Jesus and the apostles had is heresy, but the question is, what really is the exact Gospel? I mean if we all agreed on the interpretation, then there would be one denomination and it would include Jews that believe in Christ and Gentiles that believe in christ... better described as Christ's assembly or Church.

So it seems it seems to me a profitable discussing would begin at things like, did the Catholic church really distort and change what the 1st Century church believed and taught? Is Christmas and Easter a mixture of 1st century paganism and Christian doctrine? I think the waters get muddied with terms like Christian and Jew, Messianics, etc. Why can't we just be followers of Christ? or the Body of Christ and erase all the other smoke and mirrors?

So, thank you so much for providing this forum and a place to discuss these matters. I sure hope to learn a lot here and most of all, I sure hope that my faith is strengthened and uplifted by you fellow believers in Christ.

One thing is for sure, I know I'll be challenge to search the scriptures and to see what they say.

(06-11-2011 02:48 PM)YYZ Skinhead Wrote:  I wonder if most of the Hebrew Roots doctrine-spreaders who invade this site claim kosher, since they seem to be very fond of SPAM®.

I keep "kosher" if you mean I don't eat the animals God told us not to eat. But if you mean "kosher" as the Rabbinical laws state, then I don't. I also don't worry about if something has been offered to some non-god because paul said it means nothing. So to me, it all seems foreign. I had a muslim friend that would not eat any meat from any place that did not stamp it as halal. To me that is legalistic and it really takes away any joy or freedom one might have from following what God told us to do (though I'm not saying that Allah is the same as Yahweh (I used Yahweh here to make a distinction between Allah and Yahweh, because Allah is just a title like God, Lord, or Adonai is. I don't want to mix the two and cause any confusing in what I'm saying. I don't adhere to the sacred name stuff. I think the word Jesus is just as valid as the Yeshua. It's just the greek version of the same name. But, it's strange in my mind because there isn't an equivalent to YHVH which is found over 600 times in the old testament (hebrew new testament). That name as been replaced with Lord or God in every case. I've been told it's because the Jewish translators that translated to the Septuagint held to the normal believe that you can't say the name of God.

I digress, sorry.

Anyway, I simply just do not eat pork and shellfish but don't carry it to any extreme. I'll eat a cheeseburger.. that whole boiling a mothers kid in it's milk was taken way our of context and twisted around to create that "fence" they all talk about. Jesus had a major problem with that "fence". I don't get my meat from any kosher deli or any such thing because again, Paul told us it's not a big deal. But in this verse, he never says to go back on God's commands to not eat the things he told us not to eat (vultures, snakes, etc.)

1 Now concerning things sacrificed to idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge makes arrogant, but love edifies.
2 If anyone supposes that he knows anything, he has not yet known as he ought to know;
3 but if anyone loves God, he is known by Him.
4 Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but one.
5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords,
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
7 However not all men have this knowledge; but some, being accustomed to the idol until now, eat food as if it were sacrificed to an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.
8 But food will not commend us to God; we are neither the worse if we do not eat, nor the better if we do eat.
9 But take care that this liberty of yours does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak.
10 For if someone sees you, who have knowledge, dining in an idol’s temple, will not his conscience, if he is weak, be strengthened to eat things sacrificed to idols?
11 For through your knowledge he who is weak is ruined, the brother for whose sake Christ died.
12 And so, by sinning against the brethren and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ.
13 Therefore, if food causes my brother to stumble, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause my brother to stumble.


New American Standard Bible : 1995 update. 1995 (1 Co 8:1–13). LaHabra, CA: The Lockman Foundation.

The context of this is that Jews and Gentiles were at odds. From what I understand the Jews would not buy any meat from the Gentiles in the market because they thought it might have been offered to a god. But Paul is saying, it does't matter at all because these gods are not gods at all and mean nothing. But more importantly, he is telling us not to cast a stumbling block before a brother causing him to stumble.

So please forgive me if this feels like an attack, but making fun of people that do decide to not eat certain things isn't gentle and it's casting a stumbling block before those brothers.

I'm not sure making fun of them is what God wants us to do?

I'm sorry, I made some typos. I didn't mean to say (hebrew new testament) I meant hebrew old testament. My Mac keeps making corrections and I've been too lazy to go back and edit.
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06-25-2012, 11:22 PM
Post: #20
RE: Exposing the heretics within...
(06-25-2012 07:31 PM)corecrash Wrote:  It seems I have come late to the fire :-). I can't really call myself an adherent to the HRM or Messianic movements. I've been reading some over the past few weeks (That's what brought me to your site) and trying to find the Truth. I don't mean that in a worldly way because obviously the Truth is in the bible. I just believe it's in the entire bible.

I won't pretend one bit. I believe some of what they say, at least so far as my understanding allows me to. There are a lot of verses in the bible, I don't have them memorized, so I came here to get other views because I could be wrong. So I'd say, if I read just the bible then I'd say I lean towards some of their beliefs.

However, some of the things I have read about them, IE: that some have sacrifices, that they claim certain men are the two witnesses in the NT, or that we must do it just like the Talmud etc. I'm not on board with that stuff.

I've been to a local Messianic congregation here in Columbus ohio, Beth Messiah, which is a mix of Jewish and Christian folks. The jewish people wear their prayer shawls and skull caps, and the "gentiles" do not. Here are the things that I have found I like about this congregation.

I love that they read the scriptures word for word both new and old testament. I love the music as it seems to be more geared towards praising God than a show or concert of worship music. I especially love that after the service they sit down to a meal and fellowship and seem to be celebratory.

What I don't like about this congregation. There seems to be a very distinct separation in their mind between Jews and Gentiles. This really struck me as odd because in the scriptures (NT) it says there is no jew or gentile and to me genealogies should not matter. I mean if it came up in conversation between two people after they became friends that's not such a big deal, but it seemed to be the first thing out each persons mouth. "Are you a Jew or a Gentile?"

I also think they adhere to some Rabbinical laws that I don't find in the bible. Though, thus far, they have said that it's up to each person how they do this. IE: some wear the skull cap, which is purely Rabbinical, but I overheard the leadership tell someone that it was no biblical and that each person had a choice.

I know their stated mission is to the Jews and to bring Jews to Jesus for which they say they have ordered their worship to be just like a Jewish synagogue in terms of reading from the "Torah". In them I don't really see what I see you claiming of some of these folks. They teach A LOT from the new testament which indicates to me they give just as much authority to both OT and NT.

A little about my background. I was saved maybe 12 years ago, I could say I was saved before that but I don't really think I took any of it to heart because I just kept on sinning like I did before I claimed I was saved with no thought of God at all.

I've attended Vineyard of Columbus on and off for about 9 years but though I kept going, I always had something telling me something was missing. Something was just not right. Worship is like a concert and trying to make friends there is like trying to get someone to wash my car. No one seems interested. Maybe it's because it's so big.

Prior to Vineyard I attended a place called NorthWest Bible Church where I played bass on the worship team. I wasn't able to forge friendships there either and of the one friendship I did find, it was a situation where he just wanted to use me for what I had.

So I won't apologize for learning towards some of the interpretation of the Messianic movement (for lack of a better term), but I will tell you that I'm very open to correction if it's warranted. If I resist one some things, it's only because I see the word for what it is.

For instance saying that an enemy creeps in to deceive the saints is not proof that the Moral Law of God was abolished and the HRM are devils, it just means that since you disagree with them, you think they are devils.

I'm sure they would turn and say the exact same thing that you say about them. They probably think that disavowing the Law are of devils too. So I try to get to the root. Of course anyone who has a different doctrine that Jesus and the apostles had is heresy, but the question is, what really is the exact Gospel? I mean if we all agreed on the interpretation, then there would be one denomination and it would include Jews that believe in Christ and Gentiles that believe in christ... better described as Christ's assembly or Church.

So it seems it seems to me a profitable discussing would begin at things like, did the Catholic church really distort and change what the 1st Century church believed and taught? Is Christmas and Easter a mixture of 1st century paganism and Christian doctrine? I think the waters get muddied with terms like Christian and Jew, Messianics, etc. Why can't we just be followers of Christ? or the Body of Christ and erase all the other smoke and mirrors?

So, thank you so much for providing this forum and a place to discuss these matters. I sure hope to learn a lot here and most of all, I sure hope that my faith is strengthened and uplifted by you fellow believers in Christ.

One thing is for sure, I know I'll be challenge to search the scriptures and to see what they say.

(06-11-2011 02:48 PM)YYZ Skinhead Wrote:  I wonder if most of the Hebrew Roots doctrine-spreaders who invade this site claim kosher, since they seem to be very fond of SPAM®.

I keep "kosher" if you mean I don't eat the animals God told us not to eat. But if you mean "kosher" as the Rabbinical laws state, then I don't. I also don't worry about if something has been offered to some non-god because paul said it means nothing. So to me, it all seems foreign. I had a muslim friend that would not eat any meat from any place that did not stamp it as halal. To me that is legalistic and it really takes away any joy or freedom one might have from following what God told us to do (though I'm not saying that Allah is the same as Yahweh (I used Yahweh here to make a distinction between Allah and Yahweh, because Allah is just a title like God, Lord, or Adonai is. I don't want to mix the two and cause any confusing in what I'm saying. I don't adhere to the sacred name stuff. I think the word Jesus is just as valid as the Yeshua. It's just the greek version of the same name. But, it's strange in my mind because there isn't an equivalent to YHVH which is found over 600 times in the old testament (hebrew new testament). That name as been replaced with Lord or God in every case. I've been told it's because the Jewish translators that translated to the Septuagint held to the normal believe that you can't say the name of God.

I digress, sorry.

Anyway, I simply just do not eat pork and shellfish but don't carry it to any extreme. I'll eat a cheeseburger.. that whole boiling a mothers kid in it's milk was taken way our of context and twisted around to create that "fence" they all talk about. Jesus had a major problem with that "fence". I don't get my meat from any kosher deli or any such thing because again, Paul told us it's not a big deal. But in this verse, he never says to go back on God's commands to not eat the things he told us not to eat (vultures, snakes, etc.)

1 Now concerning things sacrificed to idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge makes arrogant, but love edifies.
2 If anyone supposes that he knows anything, he has not yet known as he ought to know;
3 but if anyone loves God, he is known by Him.
4 Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but one.
5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords,
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
7 However not all men have this knowledge; but some, being accustomed to the idol until now, eat food as if it were sacrificed to an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.
8 But food will not commend us to God; we are neither the worse if we do not eat, nor the better if we do eat.
9 But take care that this liberty of yours does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak.
10 For if someone sees you, who have knowledge, dining in an idol’s temple, will not his conscience, if he is weak, be strengthened to eat things sacrificed to idols?
11 For through your knowledge he who is weak is ruined, the brother for whose sake Christ died.
12 And so, by sinning against the brethren and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ.
13 Therefore, if food causes my brother to stumble, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause my brother to stumble.


New American Standard Bible : 1995 update. 1995 (1 Co 8:1–13). LaHabra, CA: The Lockman Foundation.

The context of this is that Jews and Gentiles were at odds. From what I understand the Jews would not buy any meat from the Gentiles in the market because they thought it might have been offered to a god. But Paul is saying, it does't matter at all because these gods are not gods at all and mean nothing. But more importantly, he is telling us not to cast a stumbling block before a brother causing him to stumble.

So please forgive me if this feels like an attack, but making fun of people that do decide to not eat certain things isn't gentle and it's casting a stumbling block before those brothers.

I'm not sure making fun of them is what God wants us to do?

corecrash, I think you are not sufficiently appraised of what this thread is about to discuss it properly. It's usually best to not involve oneself in what has happened with other posters activities and behaviors.

Quote:For instance saying that an enemy creeps in to deceive the saints is not proof that the Moral Law of God was abolished and the HRM are devils, it just means that since you disagree with them, you think they are devils.


You are not understanding whatsoever what took place, what is meant and why it was wrong behavior and beliefs of those involved. Not everyone believing certain beliefs is HR or whatever, nor does it mean they are being called devils. That's your words.

There are threads started that you can post about 'kosher' food laws etc, there's threads about talmud rabbinical issues, there's threads about the keeping the law or attempting/claiming to keep the law, the feasts, etc. It would be really great if you posted your ideas in those appropriate threads. It's really easy to get really broad conversations going on this stuff so it would help to try and keep the threads on point, which is why the topics have pretty much been broken down.

I am closing this thread because it is not the place for any of this discussion. Please feel free to copy your various topical comments to new posts for appropriate threads. Thank you.

Vic
SeekGod.ca

3John 1:4 I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth.
Isaiah 40:31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.
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