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***Vic*** · (This post was last modified: 09-14-2011 08:33 PM by Vic.)

There's several threads that have discussed Joseph Farah of WorldNetDaily promoting HR via, Richard Rives or Wyatt, etc.

However I received an email from JGIG concerning Joseph Farah promoting Hebrew Roots proponent Jim Staley, who teaches Talmud and Kabbalah.

Quote:"The following is an interview with Joseph Farah (Editor in Chief of the popular conservative news organization, WorldNetDaily) by Jim Staley of Passion For Truth ministries ... I bring this to your attention because WND is WIDELY consumed by Christians... I am alarmed and grieved that Jim Staley has found such a wide audience through Joseph Farah ... I have watched/listened to many of his teachings ... effectively teaching the foundational errors in the HRM and have debated several of his congregants over the last several months.

Here's the link to the interview:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g20P_sn6E...r_embedded

Farah is selling HRM/SDA materials on his website. ...Some are blatant HRM teachings, like those of Staley, others are Seventh Day Adventist and one or two I couldn't put my finger on.

...Jim Staley, in my opinion, is ... Right up there with Avi Ben Mordechai and Eddie Chumney but a much better marketer and he is a more personable and charismatic teacher. Michael Rood has similar quality in video/audio production and marketing skills, but Rood appeals more to the fringes in the HRM. Staley appeals more to the mainstream, making him, in my opinion, a much more effective Judaizer"

It should be noted that JIm Staley has a podcast of the interview here: http://jim-staley.podomatic.com/entry/20...7_14-07_00

And it should be noted that he thanks

Quote:Thanks to all my fellow Hebraic teacher friends (Brad Scott, Eddie Chumney, Monte Judah, Mark Biltz, Bill Cloud, Rico Cortes, and Tony Robinson) who strive tirelessly to get the message out there!

Info on false prophet Monte Judah> http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.php?tid=467
http://www.seekgod.ca/searchform.php?act...h&limit=50

Info on Mark Biltz who also appears on WorldNetDay > http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.php?tid=314

Staley travels with and works with such as those and that says it all.

It could be debated who is more effective and to what audience, etc, because if Rood, for example, gets on the so called Christian media of Sky Angel, he appeals to Christian audiences as well, simply because they believe he must be Christian to be on there. JIm Staley has also been featured on Sky Angel.

We have all the so -called fringe of HR making inroads to all Christian venues through people like Perry Stone, Bill Cloud, Brad Scott--who all work together.

But Joseph Farah, as noted, has a huge outreach to Christians and any others who like WorldNetDaily, and he has promoted HR prior to Staley. It's pathetic the so called discernment claimed by people.

Farah is part of the CNP > http://www.seekgod.ca/topiccnp.htm

http://www.seekgod.ca/cnp.f.htm#farah

Jim Staley has grown in popularity likely due to being on God's Learning Channel--for which many below par HR teachers have been pushed to the public eye. GLC discussed here: http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.php?tid=382

In the Thread > http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.p...ey#pid6228 >> post 26 Staley is discussed

Rick noted there that,

Quote:" I just received 5 DVDs from someone in which a person named Jim Staley talks about Matthew 25 on the DVD titled, "New Covenant". I also noticed that the guy that produced "Daniel's Timeline" (also, recommended to me) on Youtube, predicts the Lord's return within 2 days based on the Jewish Feasts that have "not been fulfilled yet". I don't endorse either one of these guys, btw. I am writing up a rebuttal, instead.

I was suspect right off the bat about Staley when I learned that he is part of GLC. I had not heard of him or read of him on this site. But, I will listen to these in order to rebut by scripture, the person that sent these to me. Currently listening to "Difficult Scriptures of Paul". I'm sure the Word is going to be "wrested" and "twisted" just like the DVDs I have already heard. This stuff does force you to study and know what the Scriptures are "simply" saying. "

Perusing Staley's site we see it mirrors the typical hebrew roots spiel.

Original Hebraic mindset, new understanding of Galatians and Romans, Hebrews--cause we just don't get it without that Hebraic brain...how you/we have all misunderstood Romans and if you don't understand the way Staley teaches it you won't understand Galatians or any other Scriptures.

Selling shofars, tallits, ...

One merely has to look at his links to know he is just as HR as Rood > http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.php?tid=343 and all the other 'fringe'....these are Two House proponents--which suggests Staley is also Two House, although he doesn't openly state it. These people teach kabbalah and talmud.

On this podcast we see him spewing with Rico Cortes, and Brad Scott, who appears to be teaching they are Elijah.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/se...clnk&gl=ca

He links to and promotes:

Aramaic New Testament Truth> Andrew Gabriel Roth http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.p...th#pid1609
http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.p...th#pid2245

Wildbranch--which is Brad Scott http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.php?tid=379

Shoreshim>>>Bill Cloud http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.php?tid=381 http://www.seekgod.ca/searchform.php?act...d&limit=50

Wisdom in Torah>> Rico Cortes http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.php?tid=375

Hebraic Communities> Harley Leeson
Profound Prophecy>

Restoration of Torah>> Tony Robinson http://www.seekgod.ca/nydlenewsflash.htm

Hebraic Heritage>> Eddie Chumney http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.php?tid=377 http://www.seekgod.ca/searchform.php?act...y&limit=50

Peshitta.org
Etz-Chayim> Michael “Mordecai” Silver is the Rabbi of Etz-Chayim Tree of Life Messianic Congregation> worked with John McKee, Tony Robinson, Brad Scott, Monte Judah, Eddie Chumney, David Liebe, David Pavlik, Mark Huey [Outreach Israel Ministries], Daniel Botkin, etc, and connected/members of Association of Independent Messianics {AIM}

Messianic Israel Alliance>leadership >Scott Diffenderfer, Daniel Botkin,etc > founders> Angus and Batya Wootten>>> http://www.seekgod.ca/searchform.php?act...n&limit=50
http://www.seekgod.ca/searchform.php?act...e&limit=50

These have all been discussed in my website articles or on this forum.

***Chumney notes that they are all starting a new Hebrew Roots internet network including> Bill Cloud, Eddie Chumney, Rico Cortes, Dr. Hollisa Alewine, Ed Harris, Daniel Botkin, Valerie Moody, Tony Robinson, and Scott Diffenderfer.

Steven Avery · (This post was last modified: 09-15-2011 12:22 AM by Steven Avery.)

Hi Folks,

(09-14-2011 02:14 PM)Vic Wrote: There's several threads that have discussed Joseph Farah of WorldNetDaily promoting HR via, Richard Rives or Wyatt, etc.

Only discussing Ron Wyatt directly (not Richard Rives) where do you find a questionable "Hebrew Roots" teaching ? Is this a reference to his support of keeping the seventh day sabbath, or are there other aspects that you consider improper "Hebrew Roots" teachings ? Usually a SDA doctrinal stance on issues like eschatology is not considered "Hebrew Roots", so I wonder what is being referenced.

Afaik, Wyatt used and accepted the AV as his Bible text and he was not a "sacred namer", and he did not correct our pure Bible by faux-modernist Hebrew interps. And Wyatt did not promote the stuff in that regard that you might see from a Richard Rives or Michael Rood. So if Ron Wyatt is going to be considered a "Hebrew Roots" teacher in a negative way, I would like to know the specifics.

Thanks.

Shalom,
Steven

***Vic*** · 09-15-2011, 10:48 AM

(09-15-2011 12:19 AM)Steven Avery Wrote: Hi Folks,

(09-14-2011 02:14 PM)Vic Wrote: There's several threads that have discussed Joseph Farah of WorldNetDaily promoting HR via, Richard Rives or Wyatt, etc.

Only discussing Ron Wyatt directly (not Richard Rives) where do you find a questionable "Hebrew Roots" teaching ? Is this a reference to his support of keeping the seventh day sabbath, or are there other aspects that you consider improper "Hebrew Roots" teachings ? Usually a SDA doctrinal stance on issues like eschatology is not considered "Hebrew Roots", so I wonder what is being referenced.

Afaik, Wyatt used and accepted the AV as his Bible text and he was not a "sacred namer", and he did not correct our pure Bible by faux-modernist Hebrew interps. And Wyatt did not promote the stuff in that regard that you might see from a Richard Rives or Michael Rood. So if Ron Wyatt is going to be considered a "Hebrew Roots" teacher in a negative way, I would like to know the specifics.

Thanks.

Shalom,
Steven

Hi Steven,

My misstatement. Sign0007

Shouldn't write in a hurry. Wyatt was SDA and followed the false prophet Ellen White for his archeology ideas and theology, including that worship on Sunday is the mark of the beast. Wyatt taught those doctrines and false prophecies in his tours, varying it according to whether it was SDA audience or not, and including making his own false predictions. Rood for one launched his start using Wyatt's unprovable, speculative and clearly refuted archeology claims. Rives took over as the head of Wyatt's group, and used to tour with Rood, and Wadsworth in the late '90's and early 2000's. His writings are promoted and well used by HR, etc.

More info on this see: http://www.seekgod.ca/roodskyangel.htm
a bit in this article> http://www.seekgod.ca/early.htm
and http://www.seekgod.ca/montejudah.htm

http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.php?tid=368

Steven Avery · (This post was last modified: 09-16-2011 02:21 PM by Steven Avery.)

Hi Folks,

(09-15-2011 10:48 AM)Vic Wrote: Wyatt ... followed the false prophet Ellen White for his archeology ideas

On many archaeology ideas it is clear that Ron Wyatt simply reviewed and followed historical writings and the Bible. e.g. Take the Exodus route or the Noah's Ark location, two very major archaeology issues.

Is there anything you see in his studies that are dependent upon anything at all from Ellen White ?

At times Ron Wyatt showed a strong familiarity with the writings of the 1700s and 1800s which we can see a bit better today on the internet but had fallen under a cloud in the early late 1900s. He also showed a familiarity with writings like those of Jerome and other early church writers, and writers like Josephus, who are not given much credence by the modern archaeological establishment.

(09-15-2011 10:48 AM)Vic Wrote: Wyatt ....making his own false predictions.

And can you be specific here, being sure to use as much as possible primary source materials ? You can surely understand that a third party claim by an adversary, undocumented, is of little import.

(09-15-2011 10:48 AM)Vic Wrote: Wyatt's... clearly refuted archeology claims.

Similar question here. Which claims have you personally examined carefully, rather than simply taking e.g. a short ICR or Tentmaker assertion of "refuted". Maybe you could indicate the one or two or three claims that are most "refuted" and precisely the reasons why you consider them as refuted.

Please understand that I am not talking here about Richard Rives or Michael Rood, neither of whom I consider as very important in this picture, for reasons that are only moderately relevant. You can find many writers who explain the Ron Wyatt archaeological research who stay very distant from both Rives and Rood.

Simply the direct work and assertions of Ron Wyatt.

Thanks.

Shalom,
Steven

heb13-13 · 09-18-2011, 11:55 PM

Hey there Vic,

Just wanted to report back some good news. My friend who sent me those 5 DVDs by Jim Staley, has come out of the HRM movement he was in. He had a big falling out with his best friend who he introduced to HRM. But his friend went much deeper than he did (Talmud, Kabbalah) and this is what it took to wake him up. He and his wife are out and I am praising the Lord.

Best to you,
Rick

SheitlQueen · 09-27-2011, 03:21 AM

(09-18-2011 11:55 PM)heb13-13 Wrote: Hey there Vic,

Just wanted to report back some good news. My friend who sent me those 5 DVDs by Jim Staley, has come out of the HRM movement he was in. [/quot]
Thank G-d! Hopefully others will leave it as they see what a sham it is.

[quote]
He had a big falling out with his best friend who he introduced to HRM. But his friend went much deeper than he did (Talmud, Kabbalah) and this is what it took to wake him up. He and his wife are out and I am praising the Lord.

Why in the world would HR want to be involved in Talmud and kabbalsh??? Although I hear some of them are now taking an
active interest in gamatria. Do they have to try to involved themselves in everything that is Jewishly related?

***Vic*** · 10-02-2011, 11:06 AM

(09-18-2011 11:55 PM)heb13-13 Wrote: Hey there Vic,

Just wanted to report back some good news. My friend who sent me those 5 DVDs by Jim Staley, has come out of the HRM movement he was in. He had a big falling out with his best friend who he introduced to HRM. But his friend went much deeper than he did (Talmud, Kabbalah) and this is what it took to wake him up. He and his wife are out and I am praising the Lord.

Best to you,
Rick

Great news Rick! Thanks for sharing that. Sorry about his friend though. It's always sad when people pull other's into that or other deceptions and while they come out, the people they led into it remain. It happens a lot I think

***Vic*** · 10-02-2011, 02:07 PM

(09-16-2011 02:13 PM)Steven Avery Wrote: Hi Folks,

(09-15-2011 10:48 AM)Vic Wrote: Wyatt ... followed the false prophet Ellen White for his archeology ideas

On many archaeology ideas it is clear that Ron Wyatt simply reviewed and followed historical writings and the Bible. e.g. Take the Exodus route or the Noah's Ark location, two very major archaeology issues.
Is there anything you see in his studies that are dependent upon anything at all from Ellen White ?

HI Steven, I've started 2 posts to answer you and end up with so much documentation I had to stop. Smiley_65

So the answer is Absolutely. Not sure if this is still on the net, but this regarding Ellen White:

SERMON BY RON WYATT
Feb. 13, 1999
WOODVILLE SDA CHURCH, New Zealand
Sabbath a.m. & p.m.

Here's a few examples concerning Wyatt's promotions of Ellen White.

Quote: "...Back in the 1860's in a little church in Otsego Michigan, a young lady called to the office of a prophet said to the people that were sitting out in the wooden pews in front of her, "Many of you will be food for worms, but many of you will be alive at the coming of the Lord." ...

The group that Sr. White was speaking to that day in the 1860's in Otsego Michigan were following the Lord and the words of admonition by His prophet. But in 1888 God sent two young men to His church with a message that if it had been accepted Christ would have come way before this time and those people sitting there, many of them, WOULD have been alive at the coming of the Lord. But that message was rejected. The righteous turned from doing that which was right and did that which was evil in His sight and so the blessing that could have been theirs was delayed.

"...When we began excavating for the Ark of the Covenant outside of Jerusalem, as we excavated down the cliff face, and found the cut-outs where the posters had been placed giving the name and the accusation of those who were crucified in Jerusalem (and it didn't only happen to Christ - that was the custom in those days - the name and what he was accused of was put up in three languages that were used in Jerusalem) and as we went on down and found the cross hole and realized that that was the very place that Christ had given His life for us, it was a stunning realization!..."

"... everything was set, folks. The tables of stone would have come out at that time as a "witness to the world against the idolatrous sabbath" [1 B.C. p.1109] that had been substituted for the true Sabbath! EVERYTHING WAS IN PLACE to finish the work then! Mrs. White was NOT a false prophet! The people that should have been listening failed to accept the message of Righteousness by Faith..."

"...Sr. White says that God will take this work into His own hands and finish it. ...

"...I'd like to share with you something Sr. White said. She wrote this in 1888. It had to do with Jones and Waggoner's message to the flock of Righteousness by Faith, but it also has an application in our time. ..."

" The New Testament is full of prophets. Christ personally said of John the Baptist, He says, "To them who will receive it, this was Elias." Well, folks, the Bible said that Elijah would come before the great and terrible day of God Almighty and would turn the hearts of the fathers to the children and the children to the fathers. To them that will receive it, Mrs. White was Elijah the Prophet ..."

"... "And I would like to quote another passage from the Spirit of Prophecy where she says that one personal experience of this nature is worth more than a multitude of other people's experiences that we listen to or that we hear." http://www.arkdiscovery.com/Talk2-13-99.htm

And there's much more. Ellen White is a proven false prophet, as is Ron Wyatt. We are NOT to listen to false prophets as they have nothing to offer.

(09-15-2011 10:48 AM)Vic Wrote: Wyatt ....making his own false predictions.

Quote:And can you be specific here, being sure to use as much as possible primary source materials ? You can surely understand that a third party claim by an adversary, undocumented, is of little import.

As you likely know Steven, I don't tend to make empty statements of that nature. I have research archived on Wyatt from 1998, and since then. I have researched Wyatt--from his own statements as well as those who support him and those who critically refute him. Most of what his claims were about are expected to be believed, despite lack of actual proof. It's all a great story, but, it lacks the clear provable documentation--that can be held up against criticial investigation by actual archaeologists etc. It is expected that people will buy his tales hook line and sinker, because of certain things he says.

From his own site it is stated, and notice the contradictory statements regarding scientists and scholars:

Quote:"As is to be expected, the discoveries Ron made are very controversial among the scientific as well as scholarly communities. As a result, we never look to scientists or scholars to "confirm" them. We employ scientific testing, then present the evidences of those tests and the testimony of experts as to the results. We then present the body of evidences, biblical, historical, archaeological and scientific, and believe each individual is capable of making their own decision."http://www.anchorstone.com/wyatt/

I've researched and evaluated and --he has had nothing to offer, nor do those who continue making profit from his claims. To me it's that simple.

If you haven't noticed, Wyatt's site, and his supporters websites have been sanitized since the 2005/2006 digs by Israel Antiquities, funded by Wyatt's group. The reason being, is they didn't find the Ark, even though they would be in the location claimed by him. I think it's a cistern they were in, and they have never had anything to substantiate his contradictory claims. Nothing. Now, That is, the stories and claims have been changed. Particularly on the Ark of the Covenant--all of which hinged in believing all he had to say.

Keep in mind this Scripture which contradicts Wyatt's claims with regard to the ark:

1Ki 8:9 There was nothing in the ark save the two tables of stone, which Moses put there at Horeb, when the LORD made a covenant with the children of Israel, when they came out of the land of Egypt.

Jer 3:16 And it shall come to pass, when ye be multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, saith the LORD, they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant of the LORD: neither shall it come to mind: neither shall they remember it; neither shall they visit it; neither shall that be done any more.

Rev 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Prior to that, he made these statements, some of which are contrary to Scripture, some re based on false prophecy:

Quote:"...As you know, God has given me the privilege of locating and documenting all these things...These things were not revealed by human cleverness, but by the hand of God! He HAS taken His work into His own hands and it WILL BE FINISHED with or without our participation! He would prefer that it was WITH our participation. Mrs.
White says that the angels will finish the work that man could have had the privilege of accomplishing had they been faithful. I don't know about you, but I have a great deal of confidence in something that angels do. I don't dare reflect, for long, on WHY God allowed me this honor and privilege. But there's one thing that I am extremely
grateful for and that is that His angels are participating in doing this. And He's been kind enough to have them speak to me on occasion, with very clear instructions as to what I was to do. ..."

"...... I found the blood of Christ, Jesus Christ the Son of the Living God, upon the mercy seat of the ark of the covenant, the earthly throne of God. And it was quite obvious that that blood fell upon the mercy seat on the Passover. ..."

"...GOD'S LAST MESSAGE:

This is God's last message - the blood of His Son on the mercy seat. And I'll give you a couple of texts you might want to look up (they're in this paper also)...

CHAMBER IS TEMPLE OF GOD ON EARTH:

Now this chamber where the Ark of the Covenant was placed - that is the temple of God on this earth. The Ark of the Covenant is His earthly throne. And although the Shekinah glory is not present there any longer, it has not been abandoned. The four angels that were placed on duty at the time the 10 commandments were put in the ark [4 S.G. p.102] are still there. That chamber has been cleaned out. All the furnishings of the tabernacle (of the temple - which were the same) are set in perfect order. The only difference is that the Ark of the Covenant is sitting against the end of the chamber wall. The staves have been removed. And to my understanding that means it's not going to ever be moved again. And behind the Ark of the Covenant is a beautiful wall of transparent crystal, glass, or something and the colors of the rainbow are radiating out above the earthly throne of God. I haven't seen the one in heaven but I know it's described as a rainbow over it.

TEMPLE TO BE OPENED:

So anyway, that is God's temple and will be opened and God's people will be able to see on video the blood of the Son of the living God on that mercy seat, so that they will know that they have been redeemed. ..."http://www.arkdiscovery.com/Talk2-13-99.htm

And the claim about finding the Ark of the Covenant in 1982?

Right from Mary Wyatt,

Quote:"The Ark of the Covenant---AT THIS TIME, WYATT ARCHAEOLOGICAL RESEARCH CAN PROVIDE NO CONCLUSIVE EVIDENCE REGARDING THE DISCOVERY OF THE ARK OF THE COVENANT" http://www.wyattmuseum.com/arkofthecovenant.htm

2006 >

Quote:Ron Wyatt dug in a cave system, north of the Damascus Gate in Jerusalem over a three and a half year period of time and claimed to have located the Ark of the Covenant buried in a subterranean cave. What you are about to review is Ron’s account of that discovery.

...Even so, at this time it is important to state however that Ron’s account of his discovery of the Ark of the Covenant cannot be confirmed and that recent exploration reveals unexplained discrepancies in that account. The Bible states that in the mouth of two or three witness is every word established. Ron had no second witness and provided no conclusive evidence as to the location of the Ark of the Covenant; therefore, his account as follows is not an established fact..." http://web.archive.org/web/2006110922380...pecial.htm

Quote:The excavations of 2005 and 2006 at the Garden Tomb, in Jerusalem, did not completely confirm the findings as stated by the late Ronald E. Wyatt during his periods of excavation during the years 1979 to 1989. We no longer have the personal account of Ronald Wyatt to help guide us. For these reasons, until further research, the Ark of the Covenant materials presented by Wyatt Archaeological Research prior to 2005 have been removed from circulation.
...Dr. Jerome Niswonger and Eric Lembcke

As per the unanimous decision of the Board of Directors,
Wyatt Archaeological Research
Mary Nell Wyatt Lee
Eric Lembcke
Jerome Niswonger
Richard Rives
http://web.archive.org/web/2007020812414...update.htm

They have been busy sanitizing all information where Wyatt recounts his talks with the angels. etc. Now he used a Trinkle drill, and colonoscope, and nothing is mentioned about his videos and pictures which couldn't be shown because they had nothing on them. No longer is it declared about Ron going back into the 18" space only to discover it all cleaned up and emptied except for all the artifacts he claimed were there.

Read, the dig was right where Wyatt claimed the ark was, but it's not there. Aside from the Scriptural reasons, his claims have been rewritten and as said before, sanitized with eliminating all original claims by Wyatt prior to , his 'talk with Christ, the angels that cleaned up the chamber. etc. Now it's he somehow made his way through the 18 in headroom and found a way to Zedekiah's cave. No longer did the angels clean it all up for him. And we can assume the unnamed reason for his passing out from 2-2:45--was to correlate his find with Christ being crucified or some other nonsense. The drill and colonoscope supposedly were used to see in the non-existent ark. And the claims of people being killed, Israeli soldiers dying because they tried to remove the ark, Wyatt claim to be the one to reveal the non-existent ark, or the tablets, etc.

Quote:After taking samples of what appeared to be dried blood outside the cave Ron then made his way into the cavern and actually witnessed for the first time the Ark of the Covenant itself; even though the cave was still full of rocks at that time and only the top could be seen. It's hard to describe it this way but it's about three feet wide and 2 1/2 feet deep and tall. There is an angel (cherubim) on each end with one wing forming a back and the other forming a side (armrest). Each angel has on a little beanie sort of thing and each has a staff in their backside hand. The staffs are at an angle so as to form an 'x' across the back. The ark of the covenant was the representation of God on earth. It was the centerpoint of worship for the Hebrews. See: Numbers 10:33, 14:44; Deut. 10:8, 31:9, 31:25-26; Joshua chapter 3:1-4:18, 6:6-8, 8:33; Judges 20:27, 1 Sam. chapter 4, 2 Sam. 15:24; 1 Kings 3:15, 6:19, chapter 8; 1 Chron. 15:25-17:1, 22:19, 28:2-18; 2 Chron. chapter 5 & 6, Jeremiah 3:16, Hebrews 9:4 for starters. Ron also found dried blood on the Mercy Seat itself and took some samples of that. Ron then resealed the cavern and left back for home from that trip. Meantime four Levites tried to enter the cavern to steal from the Ark and God killed them. Ron was called back to remove them as Ron was the only one God was going to allow to touch the Ark without undergoing instant death. Ron's next trip was to try to discover what was inside the Ark. When he got to the cavern and unsealed the entrance again he found not only all the rocks and debris removed but things that had been removed from the temple and taken to the cavern 2600 years previously were laid out in order; the sacrificial table the temple priests used for sacrifices, a seven candle candle holder, and the Ark of the Covenant itself. Inside the cavern Ron encountered four angels who told him they cleaned the cavern out, and to remove the stone tablets when they lifted the heavy Mercy Seat lid up. He did so; and then handed them to one of the angels who set the tablets up on a ledge. The angel told Ron God wanted them to be brought out and shown as soon as the beast has commanded that everyone receive the mark. That's heavy; what does that tell you about where we're at regarding the end times. Also inside the Ark Ron found a jar of manna, and Aaron's staff or rod; just as the bible said was in it. Ron resealed the cave entrance and went back home. Ron tired to take pictures of the cavern's contents but God didn't allow it. He used a polaroid, a 35mm, and a video camera and all film turned out blank.

No one dares to enter the cave. The Israeli government is OK with where it is now so they can pull it out when the time is right (maybe during the invasion, just before God destroys 5/6 of the invading army) http://web.archive.org/web/2001062323073...venant.htm
http://web.archive.org/web/2004022600081...venant.htm

Contradictions>

Quote:Nov 28, 1999> When will the Ark be revealed to the world?
We get a lot of pressure from various people about this question but it is God that will dictate the timing of the revealing of the Ark of the Covenant and the tables of stone to the world. No man will make that decision. The timing of that revelation has been revealed to Ron Wyatt. However that revelation will be associated with certain events, not a specific date or time.

The time of the revealing of the Ark is not scheduled to coincide with any dedication or building of a temple or anything associated with it. However, there is an event that will be the signal for Ron to bring out the tables of stone from the place where they have been hidden for over 2500 years http://web.archive.org/web/1999112810200...c_faq.html

Quote:Update: Ark of the Covenant
October 5, 1998>
When Ron entered that cave at 2:00 p.m. on the afternoon of January 6, 1982, this is what he saw: There was very little room to crawl around because the things placed in the cave left only about a foot and a half of crawl space between them and the ceiling of the cave. There were rocks on top of boards, on top of animal skins. When he shined his flashlight down between the rocks, he saw that much of the wood and fur were rotted away and he saw "gold" glittering down underneath the rocks. Then at the far side of the cave he saw a stone box.

The lid of the box was cracked and the smaller portion of the lid was moved aside a short distance. At this point Ron realized what had taken place there nearly 2000 years ago! Overwhelmed with the emotion of this revelation, Ron passed out for 45 minutes in that chamber.

The Blood
Hopefully within a year or so it will be time to reveal the Ark of the Covenant to the entire world. When the Lord says, "It is time", Ron will return and re-enter that cave and take along with him a camera crew and one or more genetic scientists. We will see them take a sample of Christ's blood (their is a dried pool of it on the Mercy Seat!), and we will see the test results of that extremely unique blood!http://web.archive.org/web/19991128094627/http://anchorstone.com/wyatt/aoc_update.html

Quote:Newsletter Twelve: July 1995
The Ark of the Covenant

Ron Wyatt's Story of the Discovery
Compiled from Wyatt Archaeological Research's Quarterly Research Letters and written by Mrs. Ron (Mary Nell) Wyatt

...The video documentation on this subject is NOT available at this time and will not be forthcoming until the time at which the Ark is made public. The only video WAR (Wyatt Archaeological Research) has available on this subject is the segment included in our "Presentation of Discoveries" video.

... Ron Wyatt also claims that he found the Ark in 1982 - but how do you know who to believe? Until you can see solid evidence for yourself, you cannot know for sure who is telling the true story. In Feb. 1988, when Ron first publicly told about his discovery, he concluded his talk with the request that people "just watch, and wait."
...Events have already begun to occur which have led us to believe that we are quite near the time when the Ark of the Covenant will be made known to the world. How near we are, I do not know, but we have reason to believe we are quite near. Therefore, we have decided that now is the proper time to present the details of Ron's excavation which resulted in his discovery of the Ark. http://web.archive.org/web/1999050821284...enant.html http://web.archive.org/web/2010073100172...c_book.htm

[color=#1E90FF][b]Look at this letter:
http://web.archive.org/web/2000082719173...letter.jpg

continued.....

***Vic*** · 10-02-2011, 02:16 PM

Then the claims of the video, photos---all claimed either non existent, didn't turn out, or the video remained in the chamber to be revealed when Wyatt was to bring out the ark. But then we have his good friend Pinkoski who said this, and please note their depiction of the ark does not match the Scriptural depiction. Slaphead

Quote: I did the drawing of the Ark of the Covenant for Ron Wyatt that was printed in his newsletters and put onto his videos.
Why did I have to do a "drawing" of the Ark for Ron? As you are about to see, the reason was that all of Ron's photos of the Ark in that cave were GLOWING! You will see Ron's amazing photo of the Ark further down this page -- but that is why we needed to do a drawing of what the Ark looked like...
http://web.archive.org/web/2000101801283...m/aoc.html

Quote:Ron said that he took this picture of the Ark while looking over the shoulder of one of the Cherubim, facing towards the other Cherubim on the opposite side, and, even though there is a certain amount of distortion in the glowing picture, we can still make out the position of the Mercy Seat , the staffs, and both Cherubim.

I showed this glowing photo to thousands of people who came to our museum, and most of the people knew immediately how awesome this photo was, but occasionally there were some folks who commented that they were somewhat disappointed that the picture was fuzzy, and they would ask me, "Why didn't the picture turn out better?"

The Reason Why the Picture is "Fuzzy" . . .
I would explain the situation -- the Shekinah Glory resided above the Mercy Seat for quite a long time, and who knows what kind of power radiated from God's presence? So here comes Ron Wyatt with his camera with its flash and its film with "light-sensitive film emulsion" on it, and Ron snaps his flash pictures of the Ark of the Covenant inside this darkened cave -- so who knows what kind of radiant energy could be reflecting off of the Ark of the Covenant and hitting the camera's sensitive film? And my final comment to those visitors would be that I think that this picture came out PERFECTLY !

In the later years Ron let it be known that he DID have some "clear" pictures of the Ark, and these were taken during later trips into the cave. God intentionally blurred the earlier photos , because, as Ron explained, this prevented him from showing the Ark to some people who proved to be untrustworthy.

Have I ever seen those "clear" pictures?
No, as of the writing of this webpage, I have not -- I look forward to the day when I can see them, and maybe even see the real Ark in person!
http://web.archive.org/web/2000101802350.../aoc2.html

(09-15-2011 10:48 AM)Vic Wrote: Wyatt's... clearly refuted archeology claims.

Quote:Similar question here. Which claims have you personally examined carefully, rather than simply taking e.g. a short ICR or Tentmaker assertion of "refuted". Maybe you could indicate the one or two or three claims that are most "refuted" and precisely the reasons why you consider them as refuted.

I have read and studied all his stuff. There is not one substantiated or provable claim from him, that stands any critical reviews or questions. There is all manner of--believe me because I tell you this is the way it was. Any photos, are a waste of space, as are the videos, proving the 'wheels' for example. It's all based on believe it because you are being told that is what it is or what you are seeing. But peer reviews---except because he was a nurse that rather eliminates that as a source of peer reviews for his claims, therefore one must go to actual archaeological or, scientific reviews, critical reviews which are meant to substantiate or overturn someones' speculations or support legitimate provable finds. The only thing that is something tangible is Zedekiah's cave, but he didn't uncover that. Just like he didn't uncover the Garden Tomb.

Wyatt claimed that many of his finds were related to direct revelation or divine intervention and that he had direct visitations from both angels and Jesus Christ. If he saw Jesus Christ in person, then Christ has "returned" and we all have missed the event. The Scriptures are clear.

Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be...

Wyatt's alleged discovery of the Ark of the Covenant--and now disproved by his own group-- and the Ten Commandment stones are part of the "end time prophecy" as it is taught by the Seventh Day Adventist denomination. That meant that the stones of the Ten Commandments would be "brought out" for the world to see at a specific time, as a witness to the world of the True Religion.

Contradictions in 'storytelling' generally mean something is not right. Ron Wyatt's claims involved conflicting reports, including the online record put forward by his wife, Mary Nell Wyatt. Mary Wyatt detailed the events of the alleged discovery of the chamber which Wyatt claimed to hold the Ark of the Covenant. It is posted as an official record on the Wyatt Archaeological Research website and in that detailed telling of the events, there is no mention of angels. [http://www.wyattnewsletters.com/ArkCov/search.htm]

He allegedly discussed with that same angel numerous times how he should deal with the discovery. The claimed pictures he took were useless and the video that supposedly turned out --he reported to have turned over to the angels in the chamber for safekeeping.

Now instead of even the video left behind, or pictures that were blank, and angels clearing out the room, it's just said that Wyatt went back and used a 'trinkle drill and a colonoscope.' There's always some reason on all his claims, while real evidence can't be proiduced. Always some farfetched excuse why he couldn't produce actual provable facts. From the Rood/SkyAngel article:

From Anchorstone.com, we see another prophetic statement gone awry, since Ron Wyatt died in 1999.

Quote:"...The first was that if Ron remained faithful, he would have a part in bringing out the tables of stone so that they might be put on display. The second was that the Ark was not to be revealed to the world or the tables of stone put on display until shortly after a law was passed that would attempt to enforce the mark of the beast upon people..." http://www.anchorstone.com/aoc_update05.html

From the prior unsanitized FAQ page of the Anchorstone: Wyatt Archaeological Discoveries website .

Quote:"...When will the Ark be revealed to the world?

We get a lot of pressure from various people about this question but it is God that will dictate the timing of the revealing of the Ark of the Covenant and the tables of stone to the world. No man will make that decision. The timing of that revelation has been revealed to Ron Wyatt. However that revelation will be associated with certain events, not a specific date or time.

The time of the revealing of the Ark is not scheduled to coincide with any dedication or building of a temple or anything associated with it. However, there is an event that will be the signal for Ron to bring out the tables of stone from the place where they have been hidden for over 2500 years. That event will be when man's law forces a form of worship upon people that is contrary to God's law...." http://www.anchorstone.com/aoc_faq.html

Quote:TEMPLE TO BE OPENED:

So anyway, that is God's temple and will be opened and God's people will be able to see on video the blood of the Son of the living God on that mercy seat, so that they will know that they have been redeemed. And of course, many will take advantage of that and go on to be saved, but others will not be able to say that they were not warned. ..." http://www.arkdiscovery.com/Talk2-13-99.htm

Incidentally, this pro Wyatt, 'Ark of the Covenant' report says that even the video didn't work, which Wyatt claimed to have left behind in the cavern, but that story has since changed also.

Quote:...Inside the cavern Ron encountered four angels who told him they cleaned the cavern out, and to remove the stone tablets when they lifted the heavy Mercy Seat lid up. He did so; and then handed them to one of the angels who set the tablets up on a ledge. The angel told Ron God wanted them to be brought out and shown as soon as the beast has commanded that everyone receive the mark. That's heavy; what does that tell you about where we're at regarding the end times. Also inside the Ark Ron found a jar of manna, and Aaron's staff or rod; just as the bible said was in it. Ron resealed the cave entrance and went back home. Ron tired to take pictures of the cavern's contents but God didn't allow it. He used a polaroid, a 35mm, and a video camera and all film turned out blank.

No one dares to enter the cave. The Israeli government is OK with where it is now so they can pull it out when the time is right (maybe during the invasion, just before God destroys 5/6 of the invading army). ..Remember Ron had samples of the blood from along the cracks in the rocks above the cavern and from the Mercy Seat itself below the crack in the cavern ceiling. What he found was amazing to say the least. This is very similar to the Shroud of Turin story. ..." http://www.detailshere.com/arkofthecovenant.htm

Quote:Please understand that I am not talking here about Richard Rives or Michael Rood, neither of whom I consider as very important in this picture, for reasons that are only moderately relevant. You can find many writers who explain the Ron Wyatt archaeological research who stay very distant from both Rives and Rood.

Simply the direct work and assertions of Ron Wyatt.

I have read a LOT of discussion about Wyatt's claims, his own, and both those who worked with him, pro-Wyatt, and those who reviewed and refuted his claims. I have a massive amount of documentation since 1998. Unfortunately, those even of his denomination, to disagree with the claims was to be labeled as 'jealous' of his 'finds', against God etc. You know the rhetoric. Regardless how solid the refutation--and there are some solid refutations on his claims from the lack of tangible documentation of the finds themselves to claims of events with people being hurt, killed etc. But what I have read and evaluated, spiritually he had nothing to offer.

As far as I am concerned, if his claims were fully validated, confirmed with real provable evidence--not just slick sales techniques which tell people what they are supposed to be seeing and believing (in horrible quality photos or videos) then maybe I might be inclined to consider the lousy photos and contradictory stories. But so far I have seen soo many contradictions within his own organisation and supporters, unsubstantiated claims, --all of which get repackaged, I am simply not interested in someone who very obviously made false predictions about himself, and of course the ark, the blood, etc. He's a proven false prophet. End of story as far as I am concerned. Aside from the errant Biblical issues which he was disseminating.

So I know you like the archaeology stuff, Steven, but I think there are better ways to believe the Scriptures true, than through Wyatt's claims. And I still maintain we are to walk by faith not by sight.

Many people want all these things proven--and certainly what a great thing to have the things of Scripture with out a doubt physically validated---and those things are being done. Right now I am looking at a list of 22 plus links, showing statements or refutation from people who worked with Wyatt or have checked his claims independently etc. And they do not substantiate his claims whatsoever. And they have the knowledge to prove or disprove his claims. People believe what they want to believe.

But in the end, Jesus said:

Mat 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
Mat 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Mat 12:41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.

2Pe 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
2Pe 2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
2Pe 2:7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
2Pe 2:8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)
2Pe 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

We don't need to see all those things to believe it is just as the Scriptures declare.

Just because someone is convinced of something does not make it so. THey claimed to be digging---in the garden tomb or golgotha--depends which story one uses--- and worked there 2 years and not one picture of actual provable excavation in the retelling of it? Contradictions in licences? So simple to prove or not. A license is a tangible thing.

Their 1979 picture under the heading of The Excavation Begins---shows a man sitting and a man standing in front of a rock. Hardly the depiction of excavation. It all talks about what he was convinced of. So what. Just because someone is convinced of something does not make it so.

Here's some of how I evaluated some of his stuff. He sends his boys home sick with fevers and 'he was sick too'. But he kept right on trucking... "Now alone in this vast cave system"..."

If the 'ark' chamber was full of rocks, "a cave chamber completely full of rocks, (all larger than "fist" size), with about 18 inches of clearance between the rocks and the ceiling", where did he remove "the massive pile of large rocks" to, in the 18" high chamber, in order to actually see all he claimed to see? Because just prior to that, he had stated they were in a "tight tunnel which was so small that Ron had to exhale in order to squeeze through. He had to stop to take a breath and when he inhaled, the tunnel was so tight he couldn't fill his lungs completely." And "When they got through, Ron saw a very small opening in the wall of the tunnel they were now in..." So where did he remove all those rocks to, and still be able to exit that chamber?

Except he says he crawled over the rocks--with 18" space. He wanted everyone to believe him with no proof but because he had all these prior 'proofs' and claims. No proof, no find. PROVE ALL THINGS. That's Scriptural.

Please note that the various renditions of the ark 'find' have been so santitized as to change totally his 'story'. No angels, no cleaned up chamber....? Could it be to appear more credible? to be able to fund Israel Antiquities in their excavation? And I have watched his son's video which only continues on with --it was there but we can't find it again--with regard to the wheels, etc.

And what do Israel Antiquities reports say about someone's prior tunneling around Zedekiah's cave--which may or may not have been Wyatt, and which shows they didn't have a clue about true archaeology practices:

"...The finds that were disturbed by the previous excavation and the conditions of the current excavation made it difficult to understand the remains...."

Wyatt also claimed to have discovered the Solomon Temple ivory pomegranate in the same cave as the 'ark'. The pomegranate was known of and written about two years before Wyatt claimed to have found the cave according to a source-- and which missing cave and contents is now proven as false by his own group.

***Vic*** · 10-02-2011, 02:22 PM

(09-27-2011 03:21 AM)SheitlQueen Wrote: Why in the world would HR want to be involved in Talmud and kabbalsh??? Although I hear some of them are now taking an
active interest in gamatria. Do they have to try to involved themselves in everything that is Jewishly related?

Hi Sheitl,

I believe it's to take followers away from all things Christian and New Testament. Because that has to be the end result. You can't merge two contrary beliefs and remain sound in what one believes. It's like serving two masters. It's one or the other, not both.