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Hebrew4Christians, praying for Israel, Palestinians, etc
10-30-2011, 08:42 AM
Post: #31
RE: General questions for former Messianics
(10-23-2011 10:37 PM)Rose of Shushan Wrote:  Computerdoc it is really sad to see you ,who profess to be a believer in Christ, endorsing all this hate propaganda promoted by right wing islamophobes.

As to the film you mentioned and said that you know of noone who questions their credibility.Well, I can give you one group of people that do.Take a look at this website and you will see how many people regard the film as hate propaganda.

http://www.obsessionforhate.com/thefilm.php

[b]Did you not even check to see who is behind this nonsense?
You have everybody from the Latter Day Saints to Muslim Groups to Extreme Liberal Churches

I am shocked that you would take their word over the word of people who have lived and know what it is like to live in an Islamic state.



Quote:The following link is a jewish response to the film and they seem to be very aware of the link between the film and Brigitte Gabriel, Darwish and crew.
http://www.jewsonfirst.org/Obsession/Index.html
http://www.jewsonfirst.org/Obsession/gabriel.html[/b]

So now you believe these Jews, but reject other Jews? Very confusing. You seem to have bipolar beliefs Rose. Why do you accept the beliefs of some Jews and reject the beliefs of others? Why are some more acceptable to you than others?
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10-30-2011, 08:59 AM (This post was last modified: 10-30-2011 09:23 AM by Rose of Shushan.)
Post: #32
RE: Hebrew4Christians, praying for Israel, Palestinians, etc
Quote:So now you believe these Jews, but reject other Jews? Very confusing. You seem to have bipolar beliefs Rose. Why do you accept the beliefs of some Jews and reject the beliefs of others? Why are some more acceptable to you than others?

Charles, that made me laugh !! The reason is because all jews do not share the same opinions on everything.I don't have to believe what someone says just because they are jewish! I gave Marie a list of jewish groups so that the information they give isn't accused of being anti semitic.So that she sees that jews and the state of Israel are not synonymous and that there are many jews speaking out against what the nation of Israel is doing against the Palestinians .There are many more jewish links out there that I have ommitted.Perhaps if I have some more time I can add to the list for your benefit.
There are also a few blogsand books run by jewish people that also raise awareness and discuss the Palestinians plight. Richard Silverstein,Philip Weiss, Antony Loewenstein, Norman Finkelstein, are all jewish writers and while one may not agree with all their political ideologies they certainly give an excellent way of keeping up with what happens in Israel and Palestine.Many types of people share their opinions and thus one can get to know about what is going on and then make an informed decision.
Actually when you say that I reject other jews, what jews are you referring to? It's not too clear what you mean there, at least to me


Quote:Did you not even check to see who is behind this nonsense?
You have everybody from the Latter Day Saints to Muslim Groups to Extreme Liberal Churches

I am shocked that you would take their word over the word of people who have lived and know what it is like to live in an Islamic state.

Yes, I did check, I check everything just as I checked who are behind the agenda that you promote.And there are many many people,you yourself have admitted it that are against the Obsession movie.As christians we just cannot endorse that type of thing, would Jesus be behind that?
I'm sorry that I had to use the word hate etc but that is what Geller, Darwish etc promote.There's no other word for it.And I use the word Islamaphobia because that is what they promote, irrational fear of Muslims and that they will instil Sharia Law.Is there not a Congress and Govt in the States? How many arabs are in the Senate, now compare that to how many jews...as you can see no chance of Sharia Law taking over.Do you think all the jews in the Senate would allow that?
And in Europe Governments are enacting legislation to prevent woman wearking burkas, so so much for implementing Sharia law:D
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10-30-2011, 10:01 AM (This post was last modified: 10-30-2011 10:04 AM by Rose of Shushan.)
Post: #33
RE: Hebrew4Christians, praying for Israel, Palestinians, etc
Marie and Charles, as you are both christians, maybe you can find the time to check out Mark Braverman and what he has to say. Again, he is jewish yet manages to see the whole picture and not just the views of one of the parties.

This is an example of a christian working for peace for BOTH parties not just one.

http://markbraverman.org/


By the way,Mark's book Fatal Embrace received a great review in the Jewish Post and News so his efforts are welcomed by some in the jewish community wouldn't you say?

see here http://www.jewishpostandnews.com/index.p...ash&Itemid

This is part of what they have to say about Mark's book;



In the expanding library of literature that seeks to shine a rational light on the ever-deteriorating situation in Palestine and Israel, Braverman’s contribution has a very particular and useful focus. It speaks personally and intimately to Jews and Christians about the interconnectedness of the roles of their respective faith communities (the “fatal embrace”) in the evolution of the ghastly mess in the Holy Land and in what needs to be done to repair it. Along the way, the author demolishes the claim that facing up to the devastation wrought by the Zionist enterprise is somehow anti-Semitic. The book is remarkable for its deft interweaving of the personal and the political in Braverman’s account of his journey of understanding, an account which moves forward or backward in time as required but remains coherent and clear. The author does not lecture at us; he recounts, and describes, and discloses, and considers-and gradually disarms us. He shares vivid accounts of the people he has met in Palestine and Israel as well as key insights from books he has read and conferences he has attended; we meet theologians and activists and farmers and historians and politicians and journalists he has talked and prayed and wept with. We see and hear how these encounters cumulatively functioned to change his understanding of the issues. He gently but inexorably deconstructs, along with his own developing insights, many common misconceptions about Israel and Palestine, Zionism versus Judaism, post-war Christian theology and the still-developing Jewish-Christian dialogue, the dynamic of the conflict between Israelis and Palestinians, and the grim realities on the ground. He covers topics that have been addressed before in various ways, yet this is an unusually moving book. I attribute its powerful impact to Braverman’s compassionate yet rigorous mode of analysis and his refusal to be cowed into glossing over the realities he observes with his own eyes in order to appease or comfort any of the usual stakeholders in the discourse on this subject. Practising Christians and observant Jews will find Fatal Embrace extremely helpful thanks to its in-depth treatment of the nuances as well as the broad landscape of Christian-Jewish relations since World War II and the implications for the Holy Land, then and now. The book’s analysis of the interplay of religion and politics in the context of policy formulation and decision-making about Israel and Palestine, in the USA and elsewhere, will also interest secular readers and those who are neither Christian nor Jewish. Braverman is unequivocal in his judgment that Israel’s ongoing destruction of Palestine, which he portrays throughout with brutal honesty, is also destroying Israel itself. His urgent call for more effective interfaith and diplomatic intervention from outsiders is clearly aimed at rescuing Israelis as well as Palestinians.




Charles, are you familiar with Braverman or come across him before? If so what do you think about him and the points he makes?
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10-30-2011, 02:55 PM
Post: #34
RE: Hebrew4Christians, praying for Israel, Palestinians, etc
(10-27-2011 05:14 PM)computerdoc Wrote:  CHARLES: I agree with 99% of everything you are saying. So was Jesus Jewish? And I am part of his "body"? I think you may be over-reacting to my statements because of the HR people you have experienced. I am not an HR. I know all of the stuff you are saying. ...

It would be total Scriptural ignorance to suggest that Jesus was not Jewish in the flesh in order to fulfill prophecy, don't you think? I have never, let me repeat, NEVER suggested otherwise and have lost count of the number of times of stating that and showing it Scriptural. But it comes across that that information must have been new to you. Jesus is God manifest in the flesh, the Son of God, and Lord and Savior. Those trump the fleshly focus. God's Salvation and plan was known by Him from beginning to end including the lineage and all the prophecies pertaining to it concerning Christ.

I am overreacting to nothing. I have reseached HR and the Messianic movement from one end of the spectrum to the other, historically and currently. Every single person, regardless of history or background who comes to Jesus Christ must pick up their cross daily and turn their back on the world and traditions and prior beliefs that do not uphold the New Covenant and what it means to belong to Christ.


Quote:Who would you consider to be the first Jew if not Abraham?

Well if you look at Scripture, the term did not come about until after Israel aka Jacob had his sons. And God had changed his name to Israel. Abraham was not Israel 'cause Jacob was after Abraham, unless my chronology is messed up. The descendents of Jacob became known as Israelites, with one of the children, named Judah [Yehudah] and then descendents called Judahites, later Judeans. Jew is a shortened version of that.

Abraham was both a Hebrew and Semite--a descendent of Shem- 'father' of the Semitic peoples--son of Noah. As Genesis shows, Hebrews descended from Eber which is also known as Heber which became Hebrews, and who was a great-grandson of Shem. Six generations after Heber, Abram, whose name was changed by God to Abraham, was born, so Abraham was both a Hebrew and a Semite, born of the line of Eber/Heber and Shem. BY lineage through Isaac, and then Jacob/Israel was born literally with the 12 sons/tribes.

Just for info purposes the sons of Shem collectively begat the Elamites, Persians, Assyrians, Northern Iraqis, Chaldeans, Southern Iraqis, Hebrews, Israelites, Jews, Arabians, Bedouins, Moabites, Jordanians, Palestinians, Ludim, Lubim, Ludians, Ludu, Lydians, Chubs, Aramaeans, Syrians, Lebanese, and other related Semitic groups in Asia, Asia Minor, the Middle East, and North Africa.

And not forgetting that God promised Abraham, aside from the promise concerning Isaac, that Ishmael, his son by Hagar, Sarah's maid, would be made a nation as well. Ishmael was half Semitic and half Hamitic--Hagar was Egyptian. And we know that Arab Sunnites and specifically Arab Muslims view themselves as those descendents.


Quote::Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

Quote:Charles: Was David Jewish?

Are you struggling with these Scriptures and really don't know the answer to that Charles?

Rth 4:21 And Salmon begat Boaz, and Boaz begat Obed,
Rth 4:22 And Obed begat Jesse, and Jesse begat David.

1Ch 14:2 And David perceived that the LORD had confirmed him king over Israel, for his kingdom was lifted up on high, because of his people Israel.

Mat 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.
Mat 1:2 Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren;
Mat 1:3 And Judas begat Phares and Zara of Thamar; and Phares begat Esrom; and Esrom begat Aram;
Mat 1:4 And Aram begat Aminadab; and Aminadab begat Naasson; and Naasson begat Salmon;
Mat 1:5 And Salmon begat Booz of Rachab; and Booz begat Obed of Ruth; and Obed begat Jesse;
Mat 1:6 And Jesse begat David the king; and David the king begat Solomon of her that had been the wife of Urias;
Mat 1:7 And Solomon begat Roboam; and Roboam begat Abia; and Abia begat Asa;
Mat 1:8 And Asa begat Josaphat; and Josaphat begat Joram; and Joram begat Ozias;
Mat 1:9 And Ozias begat Joatham; and Joatham begat Achaz; and Achaz begat Ezekias;
Mat 1:10 And Ezekias begat Manasses; and Manasses begat Amon; and Amon begat Josias;
Mat 1:11 And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon:
Mat 1:12 And after they were brought to Babylon, Jechonias begat Salathiel; and Salathiel begat Zorobabel;
Mat 1:13 And Zorobabel begat Abiud; and Abiud begat Eliakim; and Eliakim begat Azor;
Mat 1:14 And Azor begat Sadoc; and Sadoc begat Achim; and Achim begat Eliud;
Mat 1:15 And Eliud begat Eleazar; and Eleazar begat Matthan; and Matthan begat Jacob;
Mat 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
Mat 1:17 So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.


Luk 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
Luk 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,
Luk 3:24 Which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi, which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Janna, which was the son of Joseph,
Luk 3:25 Which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Amos, which was the son of Naum, which was the son of Esli, which was the son of Nagge,
Luk 3:26 Which was the son of Maath, which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Semei, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Juda,
Luk 3:27 Which was the son of Joanna, which was the son of Rhesa, which was the son of Zorobabel, which was the son of Salathiel, which was the son of Neri,
Luk 3:28 Which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Addi, which was the son of Cosam, which was the son of Elmodam, which was the son of Er,
Luk 3:29 Which was the son of Jose, which was the son of Eliezer, which was the son of Jorim, which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi,
Luk 3:30 Which was the son of Simeon, which was the son of Juda, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Jonan, which was the son of Eliakim,
Luk 3:31 Which was the son of Melea, which was the son of Menan, which was the son of Mattatha, which was the son of Nathan, which was the son of David,
Luk 3:32 Which was the son of Jesse, which was the son of Obed, which was the son of Booz, which was the son of Salmon,
which was the son of Naasson,
Luk 3:33 Which was the son of Aminadab, which was the son of Aram, which was the son of Esrom, which was the son of Phares, which was the son of Juda,
Luk 3:34 Which was the son of Jacob, which was the son of Isaac, which was the son of Abraham,
which was the son of Thara, which was the son of Nachor,
Luk 3:35 Which was the son of Saruch, which was the son of Ragau, which was the son of Phalec, which was the son of Heber, which was the son of Sala,
Luk 3:36 Which was the son of Cainan, which was the son of Arphaxad, which was the son of Sem, which was the son of Noe, which was the son of Lamech,
Luk 3:37 Which was the son of Mathusala, which was the son of Enoch, which was the son of Jared, which was the son of Maleleel, which was the son of Cainan,
Luk 3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.


Quote::Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

CHARLES: So what does the above verse mean to you?

The faith as demonstrated by Abraham, so that it might be by God's grace; so the promise given to Abraham would be confirmed for all the seed---that is ALL who come to Jesus Christ, Jew and Gentile and not just those Jews who were said to be of the law ie the Sinai covenant, in distinction to the Gentiles who were not. It was for all who believe and became believers in Jesus Christ, because the salvation of God through the Gospel was for all. The promise was extended across time and was sure in that those who believed Christ, both Jew and Gentile would have salvation. Gentiles are not of natural descent of Abraham but rather it is the spiritual and faith issue that makes him 'father' of us all. It is the Seed being Christ that makes us one Body in the Spirit when we believe. Whether Jew or Gentile those who are Christ's are Abraham's spiritual seed and heirs of eternal life solely because of God's grace.

Gal 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Gal 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
Gal 3:9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.


Quote:: Rom 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. Rom 4:18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be. Rom 9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. [/b]

CHARLES: 1.1 Who does the "will call them my people" refer to in the above verses?
2.2 Who does the "call them my people who WERE NOT my people" refer to?

Well Charles, if you had kept the whole passage intact, it was self explanatory. You deleted the verses between 18 and 25 which I had pasted in for your understanding. Allow me to repaste some of those passages

Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
Rom 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

Rom 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
Rom 4:14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
Rom 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
Rom 4:18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.


Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, ***not of the Jews only,*** but also of the Gentiles***?
Rom 9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
Rom 9:26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.


It's referring to the prophecy of salvation for Israel and then the Gentiles---who had never been God's chosen or beloved as Israel was. IN Christ, now beloved of God, both Jew and Gentile, the Body of Christ. It is the fulfillment of that and all those in Jesus Christ are called "the children of the living God" according to the Scriptures inspired by God Himself.


Gal 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Gal 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
Gal 3:9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.


Quote:: Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

CHARLES: Who do you consider "Abraham and his seed were the promises made" to be referring to?

Quote:Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. [/b]

CHARLES: Who do you conisider "Abraham's seed ... and heirs.... promise" to be? Who was the promise originally made to?

Charles, it's very self explanatory if one allows the Holy Spirit to give understanding. In fact, that's the only way one can understand the Scriptures... "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. ALL Those who belong to Christ are Abraham's seed. It's clearly in the Scriptures as that. What are you thinking it means? The promise was originally made to Abraham, and the gospel preached to him by God was about the spiritual issues because the Gospel is about redemption and spiritual life in Christ. THe Scriptures are cohesive and must be read in relation to one another. For ex. When we become born again we know that it is referring to Spiritual rebirth not physically being reborn.

Quote:CHARLES: We are all biased. There is no monopoly on truth is there? I am trying to push nothing unless what you say to me you also refer to as trying to "push" on me.

I was saying that when you have come out of something not good, not right, then you are more sensitive to anything that sounds close to it. I used common metaphors but this is what I meant. If you have been in a severe car accident, you tend to be a bit more fearful of accidents at least for awhile. If your husband died of Hodgkins Disease as my youngest daughter's did, you are more sensitive to critical health problems that may lead to death. That is what I am saying. If you have never experienced any of the above then you are NOT so sensitive to them.

Quote:And because you do not know me and see me defending what I consider true Christians with a "Hebraic flavour"
Quote:There are those who want to be "torah" followers and become like "pretend" Jews. However there are also those like John Parsons and many others that are not so pushy and believe in being a Christian first but that some things are allowed which are not part of the "torah".

I mean this in the same way that Paul did when they had the conference in Jerusalem and because gentiles were becoming Christians, decided to have a very few "rules" but definitely not circimcision or having to eat kosher etc.

Perhaps you have only or mainly had experience with the pushy "pretend Jewish" kind of messianic. But there are others and they probably have been Messianic Jews for a very long time. The ones I know about have been since the 70's or 80's. That is all I am trying to establish.

The pushy "pretenders" seem to be more recent. I see that is who you are trying to help because they definitely are in error saying things like "well I don't know about Paul" to make what Paul says less important than the rest of the NT.

The Truth is found in Christ and the Scriptures. Yes everyone has bias and misunderstanding etc. You have been pushing a perspective right from your first post where you promoted Hebrew4Christians as being the real way to view Messianics. The issue concerning all of this is using the Scriptures to determine sound doctrine and discern between truth and error. You have spent considerable time suggesting we just don't know what a 'good' messianic' or hebraic mindset is about. You are the one who has made the leap to suggest to disagree with doctrine is to view all those people as non -believers. And I have NEVER suggested that, although there are some who openly deny Christ and that is self explanatory on their spiritual condition according to the Scriptures. I have dialogued with and researched MJAA, etc. I have dialogued with Christian Jews who left the Messianic movement and explained why. I have dialogued with so called Messianic/Christian pastors whose hate for being challenged on promotion of various doctrine and practices would make your hair curl in the things that were said by them. I have seen both extremes, including those denying the divinity of CHrist and Christ Himself, and middle of the road. And the conclusions are the same. It's about Christ. And rabbinic traditions and teachings of Judaism are not part of that, although that is what many times is being incorporated. If you took the time to read those links I gave you, it presents a lot of my research and questions from exactly those perspectives and beliefs across the board.

And believe me, I have friends of Jewish heritage--who call themselves Christians and some call themselves Messianics. I also have Reform Jews and Orthodox Jews as friends, incoluding rabbis who have dialogued by email with me and we have had good discussions. I have dialogued with Sacred namers, Two House, Jews for Jesus etc. I've talked to those with recognised names and those who are adherents. I've studied the issues. The bottom line is that every one of us comes from something, some culture, some country, some race, some religion and we are to turn to Jesus Christ and leave those things, and mind the same things and follow the same things in Christ. As declared in the Scriptures. Heritage and geneology no longer matter-unless one thinks in the flesh, or ignores what the Scriptures say. You cannot merge two diametrically opposed belief systems and that is the bottom line-- regardless of what it is. When someone identifies themselves as being ? race---or country? or culture?------------what Scriptures support that in Christ?


Heb 13:12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.
Heb 13:13 Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.
Heb 13:14 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.
Heb 13:15 By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name.

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Heb 11:14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.

Heb 11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Col 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:


1Co 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
1Co 1:11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
1Co 1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. ...

1Co 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
1Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
1Co 1:31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

1Co 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
1Co 12:14 For the body is not one member, but many.


Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Eph 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

Vic
SeekGod.ca

3John 1:4 I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth.
Isaiah 40:31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.
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10-30-2011, 03:41 PM
Post: #35
RE: Hebrew4Christians, praying for Israel, Palestinians, etc
Wow!

I would have to say that we will have to agree to disagree. But, I too have read books "by Muslims" who accepted Jesus Christ and wrote about their part in "terrorism"! No one has influenced me. I read, too, lots of books. I've been to Israel. I travel the length and breath of it with a private tour guide who was a rabbi. He had me sit up front with him because he liked talking with me, and I knew of places I wanted to see from the OT. We were in one area where we heard shots from automatic rifles, during a conflict when we were near the Syrian borders over looking the Sea of Galilee. We were in Eliat on the Gulf of Aqaba, where there had been terrorists who come up out of the water and murdered innocent people on the beach. Many Europeans go there in the spring time, many Europeans were there when we were there. We met a police officer from Germany there. He came to Israel to see why his country murdered 6 million Jews. While there he met a couple whom he lovingly called his adopted " Jewish grandparents". W was also in Germany and went to Dachau's Concentration Camp in Germany. We visited The Holocaust Yad Vashem in Jerusalem. So I am not an "uninformed" newbie. I have read books on the Holocaust and Nazis for over 20 years. I had friends who were in them.

I do not plan in going head to head, I gave my views and reasons, since I read the debate between you and Charles, and I tend to agree with Charles. 8836 For I see this as an endless debate. And strange as it may seems....both Charles and I are Christians who love the Lord. And views are not written in stone, we are sinners saved by Grace.

Take Care and God Bless <><
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10-30-2011, 04:50 PM (This post was last modified: 10-30-2011 04:52 PM by Rose of Shushan.)
Post: #36
RE: Hebrew4Christians, praying for Israel, Palestinians, etc
Quote:Wow!

I would have to say that we will have to agree to disagree. But, I too have read books "by Muslims" who accepted Jesus Christ and wrote about their part in "terrorism"! No one has influenced me. I read, too, lots of books.
Marie I too read some books on exmuslims that had claimed to now be believers.I also watched some youtube vidoes on them in the past.I remember some of them ringed fake to me at the time since there was no mention of repentance or Jesus just all about the "evils of Islam".
Of all the videos of supposed testimonies that I watched, the ones that at the time seemed fake,are ones that I know really are fake and have been done with an agenda in mind.
The problem with this , as I mentioned in another thread, is that now it's hard to trust what we read.Not that that is a bad thing in today's world anyway as there is so much media manipulation going on.


Quote:I've been to Israel. I travel the length and breath of it with a private tour guide who was a rabbi. He had me sit up front with him because he liked talking with me, and I knew of places I wanted to see from the OT. We were in one area where we heard shots from automatic rifles, during a conflict when we were near the Syrian borders over looking the Sea of Galilee. We were in Eliat on the Gulf of Aqaba, where there had been terrorists who come up out of the water and murdered innocent people on the beach. Many Europeans go there in the spring time, many Europeans were there when we were there. We met a police officer from Germany there. He came to Israel to see why his country murdered 6 million Jews. While there he met a couple whom he lovingly called his adopted " Jewish grandparents". W was also in Germany and went to Dachau's Concentration Camp in Germany. We visited The Holocaust Yad Vashem in Jerusalem. So I am not an "uninformed" newbie. I have read books on the Holocaust and Nazis for over 20 years. I had friends who were in them.
Were you responding to anyone in particular Marie? As I don't see what relevance the Holocaust and Nazis have to the discussion.
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10-30-2011, 05:02 PM
Post: #37
RE: Hebrew4Christians, praying for Israel, Palestinians, etc
[quote='computerdoc' pid='8420' dateline='1319760686']
[quote]There is a common practice by those promoting your views Charles, and that is to say the rebels or newbies or fringe are the ones all messed up and promoting the wrong things. [/quote]

[quote]CHARLES: And what views are you talking about? Did you want to pick one? I am simply defending someone who I feel I know who is a brother but it seems here that he is dismissed as being something else. Is that not a form of judging? Are we to be the judges? Would you like some scriptures?

I was trying to help those who do not know John Parson or his teachings to understand him. I am not sure if that is welcome here. So I wanted to ask your views so that I would know if I should stop the discussion.

If my views are being judged as being wrong by others on this forum, then why would I want to defend them to people who may not consider the views of another as possibly being right even if that person has more knowledge of a particular subject? [/quote]

That was the whole problem Charles. You were promoting his website in your very first post and weren't supposed to, per forum rules. You imply or suggest that discussion is not welcome here and that is absurd and trying to set a bias. Look at my website. Look at the threads and the very LOOOOONNNNNGGGGGGGGGG list of ministries discussed. Christian, Messianic, HR etc. The issue was, you hit the floor running breaking forum rules and with what came across as spamming. And quite frankly promoting your websites and commercial ventures. NO one has dismissed Parson's as anything of the kind. You sir, are the one judging and misjudging.

I have dialogued with John since 2003 when he asked for research on various HR/Messianic groups--groups which I might add have mainstreamed into Christianity and they teach kabbalah etc. He is one who HAD BEEN in HR and got totally messed up. And as he said to me, the Lord Jesus is faithful. Does that make you feel better? He links to my site. Do I agree and disagree with specific doctrine and beliefs on his site today. Totally. It's all over my website and this forum why.

We are to prove all our beliefs to the Scriptures--including yours. Anyone who comes on here is going to be 'tried' to see if they are of Christ--we absolutely need to do that. If you don't wish to have your doctrine and beliefs tested to Scripture then you should not be on discussion forums and certainly should not be having all those blogs and websites.


[Quote]:P.S. IN your last post you asked me to explain my beliefs about the Scriptures which I had given you, and without explaining your take on them. How about you explain what those Scriptures mean to you. THanks.[/b] [/color][/quote]

[quote]Charles:I have found out that is rather dangerous here as I am then submerged almost by whole books of the Bible. All of which I have known for years and are nothing new to me. However I really didn't get your point of view of those scriptures.
Don't you find that sometimes you see a scripture that you have known for years and suddenly you see a new angle on it? I would rather take small portions and discuss what a person's views are of it. However it is your board and you can do or not do what you want.[/quote]

[quote]So if you do not want to explain your beliefs that is okay. It is your choice. God bless you anyway[/quote]

Charles, the use of the Scriptures was explained in the lead in statements before posting them. Plus now I have taken time to explain them as I understand them. Yet, you want us to get to know you, but you refrain from answering my posts which responded to your various posts, and asked you questions--and you make it appear you are somehow inundated with Scripture and that it is offensive to you. I have yet to be offended by the use of Scripture--thats the Sword of the Spirit for ALL believers.

I highlighted the emphasis I intended to be specifically noted in passages---but people need context not just a phrase here and there in order to gain understanding. Many use the posted passages, instead of opening their own Bibles. Some readers may not have a Bible. So if you find it an annoyance to have passages of Scripture to consider for a topic, I guess you will just have to put up with it. I don't put in Scripture merely to 'spam' people. It has deep meaning and needs to be considered in the discussion.

If you didn't get what I meant by their use, you really could have said, I don't get this application of these verses because this is what this passage or verse has always meant to me. Does it mean the same to you? instead of implying and suggesting I don't want people to know my beliefs. That is the most absurd statement.

Look at the website and forum. If I was a mouse about my beliefs we wouldn't be having this discussion whatsoever, and I would not have an Apologetics website. However, you seem to withhold your doctrinal beliefs but express opinions a lot without weighing them to Scriptures. Maybe that's just what's coming across to me and that's not who you are or what you are really about. I am not sure if we will really get to know.

"God bless me anyway", Charles? What kind of statement and attitude is that?


Jas 3:8 But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.
Jas 3:9 Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.
Jas 3:10 Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.
Jas 3:11 Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?
Jas 3:12 Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.
Jas 3:13 Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.
Jas 3:14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.
Jas 3:15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.
Jas 3:16 For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.
Jas 3:17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.
Jas 3:18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.

Vic
SeekGod.ca

3John 1:4 I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth.
Isaiah 40:31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.
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10-31-2011, 11:38 AM (This post was last modified: 10-31-2011 12:38 PM by Rose of Shushan.)
Post: #38
RE: Hebrew4Christians, praying for Israel, Palestinians, etc
Just wanted to share an article for Charles benefit that I have just read.It shows how arabs do come under persecution in Israel of all kinds and that they too are suffering.

http://972mag.com/yet-again-price-tag-at...ant/26789/



In your blog yesterday Charles you said this about me

Quote:However I do notice a distinct bias against Jews and Israel. She has deceived herself into believing that the Jews in Israel and the state of Israel are as much to blame for the problems in the middle east as the Palestinian terrorists.

It is sad that Rose of Shushan is blinded perhaps by her former messed up messianic roots teachings that she displays a prejudice against Jews.

If you read the link I just showed you it shows that I am looking at both sides of the issue, not just one. Wouldn't you agree, that on that instance, the Palestinians are on the receiving end of violence and intimidation? There are so many many more cases like this ,so that is why, as a believer in Christ, I have to not take sides and support both sides in reconciliation.

As to my "former messianic messed up roots".The reason I got familiar with the whole movement is because I thought that due to having a jewish background it meant that I had to obey the Sinai Law too. I was confused in the sense that I thought that if one went back to Jacob then one had to obey Sinai Law and Jesus. Later the more I read the Scriptures the more I see that there were two covenants and the Sinai one was nailed to the Cross, made obsolete and superseded by the New Covenant.

The one who seems to be prejudiced is yourself with comments like


Quote:So now you believe these Jews, but reject other Jews? Very confusing. You seem to have bipolar beliefs Rose. Why do you accept the beliefs of some Jews and reject the beliefs of others? Why are some more acceptable to you than others?

That, coupled with all the negative portrayals of arabs leads me to think you are prejudiced into thinking jewish is good and arab muslim is bad.How can you even ask me such a question on how can I accept the beliefs of some jews and reject the beliefs of others.So am I meant to embrace buddhist beliefs just because some jews are buddhist..or get into yoga as some jews are doing it...the list is endless..we are not clones!! Jewish people are just like everyone else with different beliefs,opinions and everything else.
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10-31-2011, 12:57 PM (This post was last modified: 10-31-2011 07:06 PM by Vic.)
Post: #39
RE: Hebrew4Christians, praying for Israel, Palestinians, etc
Before the anti-semitic card gets pulled and plastered on here, I would remind members of this part of the forum rules:

http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.php?tid=268

ANY hate towards ANY other group is considered part of that type of unacceptable attitude for believers. That includes towards Muslims, Jews, Italians, Africans--you get the picture.

As believers we are NOT to be entangled in worldly attitudes, nor see others-individuals or groups-- through the lens of the world. We are to see all people through the lens and mind of Christ. Does that mean we don't evaluate and refute things Scripturally and factually. No.

What it does mean is that we are strangers and pilgrims on this world and belong to the Kingdom of God, and the Body of Christ, not to any worldly kingdom. If you don't believe that you are denying who the Scriptures say we are in CHrist.

Can we be appalled by the actions and activities, the wars and rumors of wars, Jesus warned about. Totally. Does that mean we should not view all in the light of Christ, loving and sharing HIm to ALL. According to Scriptures, as believers our love for others should outweigh any hate for others.

There is not one religion that accepts Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord outside of those who belong to Him. Every single person then outside of that, is there to be witnessed to, if we are given the opportunity and we do not know what seeds are being planted when we speak or write something and others read it.

The Good Samaritan is an exercise in understanding that the most prior hated enemies were to show love to others and help others. IN CHrist we are not to hate but to share the love and Truth of Jesus Christ to all peoples.

From a Christian perspective, Muslims---and I personally have muslim friends as well as Jewish friends---Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, etc --all need to know Jesus Christ. THey aren't going to agree with that, but as Christians that is our commission. To share Christ. NOT hate those people who reject Christ. Not label them and wage a war of words and propaganda against them as a group and which closes all doors to hearing of Christ. No, we are called to share Christ and He will provide the words and openings.

The Scriptures tell us that there will be believers from every nation. Think about that.


Act 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
Act 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Rev 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,


There's enough in the literature of all religions and belief systems to find openings to discuss what differences there are between us, and misunderstandings about Christ and salvation. That's if we really love and care for others, in Christ. It doesn't mean we don't refute error or incorrect information. It does mean we do it with love for others. And if we can't do that, we need to figure out why.

If we look at things the way the world does, could you enter a Chinese, Jewish, Russian, Irish, Muslim etc neighborhood or home and feel love and care for them or would you feel condemnation, resentment, hatred, fear.... Can you walk by a Muslim or Orthodox Jew on the street and say hello and be friendly, whether it's received back or not, or....

Hate speech can be towards other than Jews incidentally. We are to not be part of that. We are to be about our Lord's business.


2Ti 2:1 Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 2:2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.
2Ti 2:3 Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.
2Ti 2:4 No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.
2Ti 2:5 And if a man also strive for masteries, yet is he not crowned, except he strive lawfully.
2Ti 2:6 The husbandman that laboureth must be first partaker of the fruits.
2Ti 2:7 Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things.

Luk 10:29 But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?
Luk 10:30 And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.
Luk 10:31 And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.
Luk 10:32 And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side.
Luk 10:33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,
Luk 10:34 And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.
Luk 10:35 And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.
Luk 10:36 Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?
Luk 10:37 And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

Mat 5:10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

Joh 15:17 These things I command you, that ye love one another.
Joh 15:18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.
Joh 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
Joh 15:20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.
Joh 15:21 But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me.


It's about Christ. About serving Him in all we say and do, and loving others enough to see them as Christ see's each. Just think. You may be the only example of Christ that ? might ever be exposed to either personally or through your written word on this forum or wherever. Think about it.

It doesn't matter the role each will play in the 'end times'. God has the perfect plan in motion. If Christians face persecution or see others being hurt, our role isn't to fix the world's governments, our role is to offer hope, and help;, that cup of water, that food, and most importantly the love of and Truth of Jesus Christ.

Vic
SeekGod.ca

3John 1:4 I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth.
Isaiah 40:31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.
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10-31-2011, 01:00 PM
Post: #40
RE: Hebrew4Christians, praying for Israel, Palestinians, etc
Great post Vic!! I couldn't agree more with everything that you said!
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