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Was Jesus Torah Observant?
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12-13-2011, 04:49 AM
Post: #11
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RE: Was Jesus Torah Observant?
(12-12-2011 07:28 PM)Rose of Shushan Wrote:Quote:If this is what you are saying the New Covenant is then I ask you..Are the Laws (Torah)so into your mind and so wrote on your heart, that like it says ..And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest OK, your gonna make me really dig into this aren't you. LOL,ok. I'm in the process of having to finish my final's at college. So, like you I don't have the time right now and it's like 12:30am!!. But, See I think alot of the problem here is the confusing of these Covenants. I don't believe God made a Covenant and then ended it with Yeshua. And I believe that Yeshua was stating that fact when he said HE didn't come to destroy the Torah... Old testament... law... NO , not a single bit. He even expounded on the Commandments. Even paul tell's the new gentile converts, that even though they didn't have to be physically circumcised , they still had to abide by the "Torah" in many other regards. So, if in fact the "old" covenant as you put it or the "old law" , is done away with then why would paul give any instructions to any of it at all?? Either the whole old"law"-Covenant is gone... or it's not>> you can't have a little bit of everything.There are many references to the "old" law in the new testament,many. So it just makes no sense at all to say we don't have to abide by it? One of the biggest things that the Messiah does for us(well there are many),is to take away the sting of death, which really refers to the 2nd death, eternal separation from God. and that's really what the curse of the "law" was. Sin =death (2nd death), eternal separation from the almighty. I have alot of Scripture reference and i'll finish this later. I had no idea i would be putting this much time into this site. But, God leads , I just follow. Peace my Brother |
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12-13-2011, 06:43 PM
(This post was last modified: 12-13-2011 06:51 PM by Rose of Shushan.)
Post: #12
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RE: Was Jesus Torah Observant?
Quote:Even paul tell's the new gentile converts, that even though they didn't have to be physically circumcised , they still had to abide by the "Torah" in many other regards. So, if in fact the "old" covenant as you put it or the "old law" , is done away with then why would paul give any instructions to any of it at all?? Either the whole old"law"-Covenant is gone... or it's not>> you can't have a little bit of everything.There are many references to the "old" law in the new testament,many. So it just makes no sense at all to say we don't have to abide by it? Mark,when you have time, maybe you can show me where Paul said that they still had to abide by the Torah in many regards.Of course we all have to abide by certain things that were in the Torah like not stealing,not committing adultery,etc but those are elements that are common to God's laws immaterial of what covenant we are in. You then say that either the whole law/covenant is gone or it's not..and I totally agree. But wouldn't that then contradict what you say Paul means since we cant say no circumcision and yet obey the rest of the law.That is picking and choosing a little bit here and there of what you want. It's either all or nothing,like Paul and James said.Or even Deuteronomy where it says Deu 27:26 Cursed be he that confirms not ALL the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen. The Sinai Covenant included many things which you yourself will agree is no longer in force.For example, the priesthood through inheritance through Aaron, animal sacrifices etc. Mark at one time I believed we could pick and choose what we could do of the Law and the rest didn't apply.But we see that the Sinai Covenant had to be obeyed in its entirety or else curses ensued.You said the curse of the law was death, yet the curses of the Sinai Law were much more than that and they can be found in Deut 27 and 28. They applied to the children of Israel under the Sinai Covenant.God then made a new one in Christ and the curses of the old no longer apply. We have a different set of conditions that apply in the New. Mark you say that there are many references to the Law in the NT and rightly so.As Paul said 2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: We therefore learn from the Law but are not under it. The Sinai Law is no longer our guide to how we should live but we are guided instead by the Spirit of God that lives in us. It is the teachings of Jesus which should take prominence since He is now our teacher,Saviour and King. One example in Scripture that I remeber Paul used the Law is 1Ti 5:17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine. 1Ti 5:18 For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward. If you look at the context though we see that Paul isn't using the application of the Law literally here but using the example of the ordinance/commandment to teach a principle.It wasn't oxen though that Paul was referring to but people. |
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12-14-2011, 04:00 AM
Post: #13
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RE: Was Jesus Torah Observant?
Act 21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.
Act 21:27 And when the seven days were almost ended, the Jews which were of Asia, when they saw him(Paul) in the temple, stirred up all the people, and laid hands on him, Act 21:28 Crying out, Men of Israel, help: This is the man(Paul), that teacheth all men every where against the people, and the law, and this place: and further brought Greeks also into the temple, and hath polluted this holy place. Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.(2John 1:9) |
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02-15-2012, 06:11 PM
Post: #14
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RE: Was Jesus Torah Observant?
As far as Messies go, whether Jesus was Torah observant or not shouldn't matter. He was a Jew, they are not.
They are not part of the covenant, and no amount of Torah observance is going to change that. |
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02-15-2012, 08:08 PM
Post: #15
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RE: Was Jesus Torah Observant?
Excellent point SheitlQueen
 
Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.(2John 1:9) |
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06-25-2012, 09:50 PM
(This post was last modified: 06-25-2012 10:47 PM by corecrash.)
Post: #16
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RE: Was Jesus Torah Observant?
(03-18-2009 06:00 PM)Emjesown Wrote: Born out of a woman This was really well said. I think we trip over terms and meanings. Keeping the Torah is such a strange phrase to me, in english. It looses what it really means. Really, it's keeping his instructions. That's what Torah means, instructions. It just so happens that for whatever reason, the Jews call the first 5 books the Torah. Why they lump it all under as Torah is odd because obviously the stories about Joseph or Ishmael are not "instructions". In my mind, when I hear "keeping the Torah" I think of the 10 commandments and the expansion of the 10 commandments. I suppose you could say that the sacrificial system and levitical system is part of the Law, but it isn't in my mind, but even if they were Law so to speak, then Christ became those Laws. He took that role over, but he certainly didn't abolish them because that would mean he would abolish himself. I don't agree though that jesus changed the Law. I think the Law (moral code that is) was the same since the very beginning, even before Adam and Eve. Moses said do not murder. Jesus said do not hate your brother: Leviticus 19:17 You shall not hate your fellow countryman in your heart ... Moses said do not commit adultery. Jesus said don't even lust after a woman. Exodus 20:17 ... You shall not covet your neighbor's wife. Proverbs 6:25 Do not desire her beauty in your heart, nor let her capture you with her eyelids. Moses allowed Israel to divorce but Jesus said: "It has been said, 'WHOEVER SENDS HIS WIFE AWAY, LET HIM GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE" but later Jesus says: "He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so." That indicates that it was never intended in God's Law to allow divorce in a haphazard manner. Moses said "You shall not make false vows, but shall fulfill your vows to the Lord." Jesus said, let your yes be yes and your no be no. this was against frivolous oaths because even Paul took an oath or a vow. A Nazarite Vow: "And Paul after this tarried there yet a good while, and then took his leave of the brethren, and sailed thence into Syria, and with him Priscilla and Aquila; having shorn his head in Cenchrea: for he had a vow." Acts 18:18 Also in deuteronomy 23:21-23 21 “When you make a vow to the LORD your God, you shall not delay to pay it, for it would be sin in you, and the LORD your God will surely require it of you. 22 “However, if you refrain from vowing, it would not be sin in you. 23 “You shall be careful to perform what goes out from your lips, just as you have voluntarily vowed to the LORD your God, what you have promised. Moses said an eye for an eye ... and Jesus said to whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. The OT law was used to limit how Israel dished out it's penalties, it was an Act of grace. But even so, the Law does say: Lev 19:18 "Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbors as yourself. I am the Lord". Which brings us to the last one that is like the verse I just quoted. Jesus said, "You have that is was said, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy." We have a little bit of a conundrum here. So in the OT in Lev 19:18, quoted above, God never says to hate your enemy. Though it could be said that he used Israel to kill a few Amorites etc, but God told them that he was driving them out and that because of their iniquities the land would spew them out and God would use Israel to destroy them. So, does God every kill anyone in the NT for a sin? He sure does. God killed Ananias and Sapphira (Acts 5:1-10), he killed Herod (Acts 12:23) and in revelations he stands to kill millions for not worship him and instead worshiping the beast. Granted, this is God perogative and vengeance is his. But I used this to say that Christ himself will make war against his enemies. so it seems to me that he is saying that there were some that were saying to hate your enemy but he was saying, it's never been so.. the OT law never said to hate your enemy. It said, love your neighbor! and that's all it said. That's my understanding on this, but on everything else, I agree with you. But you know, even if Jesus changed the Law, he certainly didn't make it any easier, he made it harder! Thus all the more that we need Him, but overall you can tell my reading the entire NT that the Moral Law was never set aside. If that were the case, then every time an apostle talks about someone sinning by committing all kinds of strife, adultery fornication etc, then what the heck are they talking about? (12-14-2011 04:00 AM)Lois Wrote: Act 21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication. Lois, You've taken all of this way out of context. Please do not take this as an attack, I'd just like to show you how I think it was taken out of context within the verse and within other verse that discuss the same thing. Let's start with Acts 21:25 that you quoted: What does the whole section say? Thisis part of a larger group of verses. In my bible it shows as starting at Acts 21:17, so let us start right there. 17 After we arrived in Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly. 18 And the following day Paul went in with us to James, and all the elders were present. 19 After he had greeted them, he began to relate one by one the things which God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. 20 And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, “You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law; 21 and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs. 22 “What, then, is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come. 23 “Therefore do this that we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow; 24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law. 25 “But concerning the Gentiles who have believed, we wrote, having decided that they should abstain from meat sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from fornication.” 26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day, purifying himself along with them, went into the temple giving notice of the completion of the days of purification, until the sacrifice was offered for each one of them. The key verse here, in our discussion, is verse 24. ... "and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law". There are some far reaching implications here to how you interpret these passage that I'm not sure if you understand. We have to assume one of two things: 1. That paul keep the Law and was falsely accused of teaching that the Law was abolished. 2. That paul and the other apostles cooked up a plan to deceive the very converts they have preached to ("how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law") What happens if we believe scenario number 2? Paul becomes a liar and a deceiver. The same with the other apostles. I don't Paul or the others are liars because we are told earlier in Acts 18:18 that Paul had taken a Nazerite vow, which I think they are also talking about here. If not, at least a purity vow. Which, still, it shows that all of the Apostles present, including Paul, were in on some type of ritual, but note that a sacrifice was involved. I don't know how to process that since Jesus is our sacrifice, but it is what it is and I hope someday God will share with me the meaning of it. At any rate, If we call Paul a liar or any of the other Apostles a liar, we have to toss out the new testament WHICH I'M IN NO WAY ADVOCATING, because I do not believe they are liars. I believe Paul kept the Law and they showed him he kept the law. So what happens when the cease him? He is brought before the Jews and explains to him all that he experienced. How he met Jesus on the road to damascus and how he was given the mission to bring the Gospel to the Gentiles. He the goes through the council and eventually he is brought before Felix A roman emperor I think? I doesn't really matter. But paul says to him in his defense: 10 When the governor had nodded for him to speak, Paul responded: “Knowing that for many years you have been a judge to this nation, I cheerfully make my defense, 11 since you can take note of the fact that no more than twelve days ago I went up to Jerusalem to worship. 12 “Neither in the temple, nor in the synagogues, nor in the city itself did they find me carrying on a discussion with anyone or causing a riot. 13 “Nor can they prove to you the charges of which they now accuse me. 14 “But this I admit to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect I do serve the God of our fathers, believing everything that is in accordance with the Law and that is written in the Prophets; 15 having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. 16 “In view of this, I also do my best to maintain always a blameless conscience both before God and before men. 17 “Now after several years I came to bring alms to my nation and to present offerings; 18 in which they found me occupied in the temple, having been purified, without any crowd or uproar. But there were some Jews from Asia— 19 who ought to have been present before you and to make accusation, if they should have anything against me. 20 “Or else let these men themselves tell what misdeed they found when I stood before the Council, 21 other than for this one statement which I shouted out while standing among them, ‘For the resurrection of the dead I am on trial before you today.’ ” So again, Paul states that he believes the Law and the Prophets. Now I stretch this a bit by thinking that him stating he believes it, he follow it as is stated earlier in 21:24. I addressed both of your quotes. By the Jews that believed saying that paul taught these things, God isn't telling us through the author that they are telling the truth. No they are falsely accusing him. I mean, someone here is lying. Personally I choose to believe it's the Jews who were probably being told this by the Pharisees. (that's speculation) but I speculate that because in the NT the only liars that are really highlighted are the Pharisees. They falsely accused Jesus too. I really hope and pay that Paul, James, and all the other elders were not liars. That would tough to swallow. Oh, I forgot one of your quotes: Acts 21:25 where they gave the Gentiles just a few Law that they should adhere to. "But concerning the Gentiles who have believed, we wrote, having decided that they should abstain from meat sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from fornication.” But elsewhere in scripture we are told just a little bit more: 13 After they had stopped speaking, James answered, saying, “Brethren, listen to me. 14 “Simeon has related how God first concerned Himself about taking from among the Gentiles a people for His name. 15 “With this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written, 16 ‘AFTER THESE THINGS I will return, AND I WILL REBUILD THE TABERNACLE OF DAVID WHICH HAS FALLEN, AND I WILL REBUILD ITS RUINS, AND I WILL RESTORE IT, 17 SO THAT THE REST OF MANKIND MAY SEEK THE LORD, AND ALL THE GENTILES WHO ARE CALLED BY MY NAME,’ 18 SAYS THE LORD, WHO MAKES THESE THINGS KNOWN FROM LONG AGO. 19 “Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles, 20 but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood. 21 “For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath.” Why does God throw in that last little bit about Moses being preached in the synagogues every Sabbath? it seems out of place with what came before and what came after. I checked the Greek text and it's there so it wasn't added. What do you think it means? I've turned it over in my mind and it seems to me they are saying that let's give them these things to start with so they do don't offend and to not burden them, but they can learn the rest every Sabbath as the Law of God is preached every Sabbath. I suppose it could mean, let's give them these few Laws because in every city they will be surrounded by those who preach Moses and they will trouble them. But to me that doesn't make sense in light of the rest of the new testament because if this was so and in light of the "No Law" argument (for lack of a better term), then those in all the cities that teach Moses are the ones trying to put them back under the yoke of the Torah. If that is so, then Christ told them they would be persecuted by them and so did Paul. I'll pray about this because I can see how both could be a valid interpretation, but given what we know from Acts 21, it seems improbable to me. I don't know if "The Message" is a valid interpretation but I like to compare it sometimes to see if it brings any clear meaning when in a situation like this. It says: “So here is my decision: We’re not going to unnecessarily burden non-Jewish people who turn to the Master. We’ll write them a letter and tell them, ‘Be careful to not get involved in activities connected with idols, to guard the morality of sex and marriage, to not serve food offensive to Jewish Christians—blood, for instance.’ This is basic wisdom from Moses, preached and honored for centuries now in city after city as we have met and kept the Sabbath.” That would agree with my first premise and would actually strengthen the Sabbath argument too. Does anyone know anything about The Message? Mark (Tony) |
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06-25-2012, 11:06 PM
Post: #17
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RE: Was Jesus Torah Observant?
corecrash, Here's the section about Bible versions > http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/forumdisplay.php?fid=8
A thread about The Message > http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.php?tid=24 IN depth studies about versions, including The Message > http://www.seekgod.ca/topicbible.htm I would like it very much if you would take a little more time to read the threads before posting much more. Much of what you have stated has been discussed and in fact refuted Scripturally in various other threads. Not that we aren't going to respond, but it would be helpful if you first checked the list of thread topics throughout the forum, as you will find that what you are saying is there. And please answer one poster per post, as it makes it easier for people to find what and who you are responding to. Also please consider reading the HR Faqs and Myths, just as a background in some of the information. http://www.seekgod.ca/topichr.htm#faqs Thank you. Vic SeekGod.ca 3John 1:4 I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth. Isaiah 40:31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint. |
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06-26-2012, 01:35 AM
Post: #18
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RE: Was Jesus Torah Observant?
(06-25-2012 11:06 PM)Vic Wrote: corecrash, Here's the section about Bible versions > http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/forumdisplay.php?fid=8 I'm confused. So am I to then assume that if I want to directly respond to something someone posted, I should first make sure no one anywhere else in any forum has said what I said or mentioned anything I mention? |
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06-26-2012, 11:09 AM
Post: #19
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RE: Was Jesus Torah Observant?
(06-26-2012 01:35 AM)corecrash Wrote:(06-25-2012 11:06 PM)Vic Wrote: corecrash, Here's the section about Bible versions > http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/forumdisplay.php?fid=8 No corecrash. You asked about The Message, and I am directing you to those sources and also topics which crossover into this one. I did not say we weren't going to respond to your posts, in fact, I said specifically we were, but am hoping to try and keep the threads as close to topic as possible, which is why we very often break a thread into different topics and parallel threads. No problem from my standpoint, just wanted you to see the threads and info available which you specifically asked about. Vic SeekGod.ca 3John 1:4 I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth. Isaiah 40:31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint. |
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