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Trinity, Oneness and The Persons of the Godhead
01-16-2009, 06:36 PM (This post was last modified: 01-16-2009 06:42 PM by Hope Secure.)
Post: #11
RE: Trinity, Oneness and The Persons of the Godhead
Yes it was http://www.spotlightministries.org.uk/bo...rinity.htm

A 10 point outline on Wht Difference Does the Doctrine of the Trinity Make[/size]
Hi again, please go to the very bottom of the above page to find the 10 point outline on What Difference Does the Doctrine of the Trinity Make
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01-16-2009, 08:34 PM
Post: #12
RE: Trinity, Oneness and The Persons of the Godhead
Well Done!

The thing is what remains is the immovable mystery of the trinity. One God Three person. I think it best not to try to understand this as every explanation I have seen is IMO heresy.

But then there are things in the world that are incomprehensible, like quantun physics, or the paradoxical nature of light (is it wave or particle stream?)

They might accept mysteries in science but to refuse the trinity because the do not undertstand it?

By what warrant?
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01-16-2009, 11:08 PM
Post: #13
RE: Trinity, Oneness and The Persons of the Godhead
(01-16-2009 06:36 PM)Hope Secure Wrote:  Yes it was http://www.spotlightministries.org.uk/bo...rinity.htm

A 10 point outline on Wht Difference Does the Doctrine of the Trinity Make[/size]
Hi again, please go to the very bottom of the above page to find the 10 point outline on What Difference Does the Doctrine of the Trinity Make

Thanx for the link Wave

I find that those 10 "differences" have a few problems. The rest of the article is not too bad considering the somewhat clinical approach.

I was also puzzled by his use of "Yahweh", as it is a made up name for God, and not even proper Hebrew. It sort of discredits his presentation, in my opinion. see this article:

http://www.seekgod.ca/htname.htm

Here are the points that I question:


Quote:D. Prayer: We pray to the Father through the Son, and also pray to the Son directly, in the Spirit: John 14:13-14; Eph. 2:18; etc.

No where in the NT does it say to pray to the Son directly. The John 14 text does not say to pray to Jesus, it is referring to praying to God in the Name of Jesus. The Eph 2 text is referring to the Spirit praying for us as we see in Romans 8. Jesus taught us to pray: Our Father in Heaven, just as He did 6788

Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helps our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
Rom 8:27 And he that searches the hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because he makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.


Quote:F. Love: The love among the three persons is the basis and model for our love for one another: John 17:26.

Joh 17:26 And I have declared to them your name, and will declare it: that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them.

Does that verse really say what the author states? 2194

Quote:G. Unity: The unity of the three persons is the basis and model for the unity of the church: John 17:21-23.

Joh 17:21 That they all may be one; as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that you have sent me.
Joh 17:22 And the glory which you gave me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
Joh 17:23 I in them, and you in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that you have sent me, and have loved them, as you have loved me.


hmmmm ........ I don't see that either - am I dense? 2020a

Quote:H. Humility: As the persons of the Trinity seek the glory of each other, so we should seek the interests of others above our own: Phil. 2:5-11; John 16:13-14.

Phi 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Phi 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Phi 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took on him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Phi 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient to death, even the death of the cross.
Phi 2:9 Why God also has highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
Phi 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Phi 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.


Joh 16:13 However, when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.
Joh 16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall show it to you.


This conclusion bothers me as well - does God "seek Glory of Himself"? ouchies .........Sign0093
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01-17-2009, 12:09 AM
Post: #14
RE: Trinity, Oneness and The Persons of the Godhead
Hmmm, well i didnt look too closely at the link, but I saw masses of scriptures. That is what i was applauding

naughty me!!!

but again perhaps they came unstuck if they tried to understand the Trinity rather than simply presented the absolute biblical necessity for it. they may have tried to push it too far as well. it sort of smacks of polytheism they way they over emphasized the community of the godhead.

This is one issue i stay away from, defending the trinity, yes, but not trying to figure it out
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01-17-2009, 12:48 PM (This post was last modified: 01-17-2009 12:49 PM by sheep wrecked.)
Post: #15
RE: Trinity, Oneness and The Persons of the Godhead
(01-17-2009 12:09 AM)strefanash Wrote:  but again perhaps they came unstuck if they tried to understand the Trinity rather than simply presented the absolute biblical necessity for it. they may have tried to push it too far as well. it sort of smacks of polytheism they way they over emphasized the community of the godhead.

This is one issue i stay away from, defending the trinity, yes, but not trying to figure it out

Yes, I think you have hit on a very valid point - "over emphasizing the community of the godhead". I don't see it as clinically as it's presented in the article - I think there is more "oneness" than "separateness". My impression of trinitarianism, is way too much emphasis on the distinctiveness of the "three persons" allegory and that bothers me. Let be firm on the fact that God is triune and I am not in any way diminishing that concept.

Let me give an example. The NT is clear that Jesus raised Himself from the dead, that God the Father raised Jesus, and that the Holy Spirit raised Him. So where is the "distinct separation" of "persons"?

Second example: The OT tells us that God created the world. Then it states that the Holy Spirit created the world. In the NT it clearly says that Jesus created the world. Again, where is this "distinct separation of "persons"?
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01-17-2009, 07:53 PM
Post: #16
RE: Trinity, Oneness and The Persons of the Godhead
My appreciation for the biblical revelation of the 3 Perrsons in 1 God (yes, a divinely revealed mystery) is this. The Bible says God is Love,and the quality of love, and the capacity for fellowship by their very nature requires another personal being with which to share them.
I am thankful to every poster in this thread that has made me solidify my thoughts on the oneness doctrine. Perhaps, by His Grace, I will be better prepared.[/size]
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01-25-2009, 02:14 PM
Post: #17
RE: Trinity, Oneness and The Persons of the Godhead
Hi all,

A little behind in posting but better late than never...I think. Mrblue

The mystery of the Godhead---a mystery and yet each person who comes to Jesus Christ, becomes intimate with all. We see proof of the personhood of each--in the gospels.


Mat 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: (17) And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Mar 1:10-13
(10) And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:
(11) And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
(12) And immediately the Spirit driveth him into the wilderness.
(13) And he was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of Satan; and was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered unto him.

Luk 3:21-23
(21) Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened,
(22) And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
(23) And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,

As we see, all Three were present, separate, yet One.

Luk 9:34 While he thus spake, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into the cloud.
35 And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.

Psa 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. 8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. 9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

As has been stated in other posts:

Joh 14:16-18
(16) And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
(17) Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
(18) I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

Joh 14:20
(20) At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

Joh 14:23-26
(23) Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.(24) He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
(25) These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
(26) But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Joh 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

Joh 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart I will send him unto you.

Joh 16:13-15
(13) Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
(14) He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.(15) All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

It seems complicated, but it's not. If it was too complicated, we would never understand our need of salvation, and the gift of it from Almighty God. I think people tend to make it complicated and try to change who Jesus Christ is to serve their own purposes. Just as some like to focus on the Holy Spirit--but the Holy Spirit was to testify of Jesus Christ and teach the things that were of Christ who taught the things of the Father. In the end, we are to pray to the Father, and know that salvation comes from Him, and Jesus is the Author and Finisher of eternal life.

Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Heb 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Psa 68:20 He that is our God is the God of salvation; and unto GOD the Lord belong the issues from death.

Isa 25:9 And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.

Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. 21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

In our finite minds we can only know a small part of who God is--and yet that is more than enought to know to love Him. To know Jesus Christ as our Saviour and Lord and to know that the Holy Spirit was given to teach us the things we must know to serve Him and to open our understanding of the Scriptures and give the gifts whereby we might glorify Him in our obedience and faith, which are also from Christ. We don't need to understand it all--we just need to have that relationship with Him. 6799

Vic
SeekGod.ca

3John 1:4 I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth.
Isaiah 40:31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.
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07-31-2009, 01:03 PM
Post: #18
RE: Trinity, Oneness and The Persons of the Godhead
Okay, I may be a little slow. I think I understand that Jesus was God manifest in the flesh. To me that means that by beng born in human form, God was able to physically be with us here on Earth.
By saying that Jesus was man and God to me means that Jesus, though physically human, had the attributes of God (power to heal, raise people from the dead, forgive sins, etc.)
The whole cross thing still confuses me. If Jesus took the sins on himself, how could he have been God at that point if God cannot dwell where there is sin? Why would Jesus cry out to God if He was God? I was taught that when Jesus spoke to the Father, he was only doing it as an example of what we should do because otherwise, it would appear that he was praying to himself (being man and God). Do you see where my confusion comes from? It never really been explained to me in layman's terms. If someone were to ask me about this, I wouldn't know how to explain it because it is not clear to me. I think I get it but I'm not sure. Can anyone explain it in simple terms?

Th_prraisethelord
MarkSmile

The LORD is my rock and my fortress and my deliverer;
My God, my strength, in whom I will trust;
My shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold.
Psalm 18:2
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07-31-2009, 03:59 PM
Post: #19
RE: Trinity, Oneness and The Persons of the Godhead
(07-31-2009 01:03 PM)Mark Wrote:  Okay, I may be a little slow. I think I understand that Jesus was God manifest in the flesh. To me that means that by beng born in human form, God was able to physically be with us here on Earth.
By saying that Jesus was man and God to me means that Jesus, though physically human, had the attributes of God (power to heal, raise people from the dead, forgive sins, etc.)
The whole cross thing still confuses me. If Jesus took the sins on himself, how could he have been God at that point if God cannot dwell where there is sin? Why would Jesus cry out to God if He was God? I was taught that when Jesus spoke to the Father, he was only doing it as an example of what we should do because otherwise, it would appear that he was praying to himself (being man and God). Do you see where my confusion comes from? It never really been explained to me in layman's terms. If someone were to ask me about this, I wouldn't know how to explain it because it is not clear to me. I think I get it but I'm not sure. Can anyone explain it in simple terms?

Hi Mark,

First, I am thrilled you are desiring to make sure your beliefs line up with the Word of God. I am so glad you are being edified and encoruaged to seek Christ first and the Word. 14387

Understanding who Jesus is, is the most important issue for us as believers. And it can be confusing at times. Especially when hit with all manner of concepts.


>>>I think I understand that Jesus was God manifest in the flesh. To me that means that by beng born in human form, God was able to physically be with us here on Earth.
By saying that Jesus was man and God to me means that Jesus, though physically human, had the attributes of God (power to heal, raise people from the dead, forgive sins, etc.)>

Yes. There are many verses that show this. In the OT is says concerning Christ, "This day have I begotten you." Remember, no one could actually see God. God provided a way to interact with humanity.

The record of the Holy Spirit overshadowing Mary--Almighty God the Father, Mary, fully human. That's why many try to destroy the divinity of Christ. By saying He was just Joseph's son. By doing that, the messianic prophecy's are also destroyed. Hence, the promises of God with us and so many.

Jesus is God manifest in the flesh, fully man and fully God, the Son of God. If you want more scriptures as mentioned in the prior posts and the other thread, for each point, we can do that.


>>The whole cross thing still confuses me. If Jesus took the sins on himself, how could he have been God at that point if God cannot dwell where there is sin? Why would Jesus cry out to God if He was God?>>

I think Rick's post covers that--but if you need more--we can delve into it.

>>when Jesus spoke to the Father, he was only doing it as an example of what we should do because otherwise, it would appear that he was praying to himself (being man and God). Do you see where my confusion comes from? >>

Yes, and it can be confusing. It's like when the Father spoke saying Thou art my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased and the Holy Spirit descended like a dove upon Christ----It was for the sake of those who witnessed it. The Jews required a sign. Hence the need to show them that God was indeed with Christ. Then came the reality that He was God manifest in the flesh as can be seen when comparing many Scriptures. Choir

Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

2 Corinthians 5:18-19 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19. To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.

Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. Joh 1:11 He came unto his own,[the Jews] and his own received him not.

Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


The Scriptures tell us that Jesus did the will of the Father, and spoke all the things the Father wanted said. He was the example of perfect obedience and servanthood. He taught the discisples to pray--and us to pray to the Father. The trial and preparation of going to be crucified--again an example to us to pray always, but also to show the human/flesh side that was strengthened by the angel that ministered to Him. He could have called ten thousand angels, but He allowed Himself to be that sacrifice.

Not sure if this is helping, so let me know what you think.


Th_ththink

Vic
SeekGod.ca

3John 1:4 I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth.
Isaiah 40:31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.
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08-01-2009, 08:30 AM
Post: #20
RE: Trinity, Oneness and The Persons of the Godhead
Thanks Vic,

Yes, it is helping. I am still a little slow at understanding some of it. I guess its due largely to the teachings if the Oneness doctrine. I understand that Jesus was God. I understand the divinity of Christ. I understand Christ was God's Son.
Let me ask this way. Did God die on the cross and get raised again? God is Spirit, right? Was in Jesus' human, physical form that died? When scripture talks of Christ being dead and God raising him, was he raising himself? Again, sorry for being a bit behind on these things. Thanks for all of your help. I am learning a great deal.

Th_prraisethelord
MarkSmile

The LORD is my rock and my fortress and my deliverer;
My God, my strength, in whom I will trust;
My shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold.
Psalm 18:2
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