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Trinity, Oneness and The Persons of the Godhead
07-19-2011, 10:55 PM (This post was last modified: 07-19-2011 11:00 PM by prayerwarrior35.)
Post: #31
RE: Trinity, Oneness and The Persons of the Godhead
(07-03-2011 11:49 AM)SeekTruth Wrote:  I know of that carm.org link, and it's a huge misrepresentation of Oneness Pentecostalism.

Contrary to the belief of mainstream Christianity, Oneness is definitely not a heresy, but instead is actually far more bible-founded and bible-sounding than the Trinity.

I believe with all my heart that God has been revealing Himself so much to me over these last few months (and continues to do so) as I've come to fall back purely on His word, without the need to substitute, modify or enhance it with outside doctrine.
My wife was into the Oneness Pentacostal church when we began to date. I had never heard of Oneness or Trinity before so I asked some elders and they explained what the Trinity was and from my own biblical understanding it made sense completely. Then I ask my wife what Oneness was and she said it's basically Jesus and God and the Holy Spirit are one, and that made sense completely, I didn't see the difference in the two concepts at all, until I learned her preacher state that baptism in the "Father, Son and Holy Spirit" is wrong and I had a heart break because that's how Jesus said to be baptised (was he calling Jesus a liar or at least claim Jesus was wrong?)... So then I ask why it's wrong when all three are mentioned and are the same and that was the ONLY way Jesus said to be baptised, he tries to explain that there aren't three at all, there's only one = further heartbreak because I've read many verses that explain how God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit are different... Such as if we are in God's presence we'll die which is why Jesus was born of flesh, and why we're separated because of our sin, or how Jesus cries to God about being forsaken when he becomes sin himself, or how Jesus leaves but promises the spirit of God will be amongst us. I determined that Oneness was trying to limit the power and authority of God to fit into man's belief or perhaps just to cause undue division.

If the teachings about God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are that Jesus was just trying to confuse everyone when stating he sits at the right hand of God, or how He will return later and until then we'll have the Holy Spirit, or that nobody gets to God but through him, well let's just say when the bible says 'these three are one' (basically the trinity concept), it also means 'the one are three', both sides of the equation are correct. Thankfully I have a wife that is after biblical truth so we were able to study the bible together and come to the agreement that she believed the three are different, and we both agreed that the Catholic statement about the trinity being three 'persons' was a poorly worded statement. Basically the divinity of God is beyond our understanding, and while the trinity concept tries to simplify this uncomprehensible concept and tries very well, it doesn't even come close to explain the true glory of God (but it does a better job than Oneness which clashes with much of the bible). Trinity can at least state that the three are ONE, the Oneness can't state that the ONE is three...

We didn't attend that church much longer, he kept adding statements to the bible about people recieving the holy spirit as evident by speaking in tongues (which wasn't at all what the bible said if you read along with him but everyone jumped up and yelled), or how he kneeled and worshipped at the foot of a cross (worshipping a man-made idol) or how it's a sin to have facial hair (really now???), or how women can't cut their hair because Samson didn't cut his hair (as if there aren't enough laws in the bible to follow, they have to make up their own). Way to unbiblical for my taste, I prefer a church that sticks to the word of God, we left and never looked back, sad though since my wife had so many friends there and they abandoned her because she choose to go to another church with me...

TL:DR
God >>>>>>>>>>>>> Trinity >> Oneness.
Neither explain very well the true nature of God more than an honest open Bible study, but Trinity does a better job than Oneness.
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10-16-2011, 03:50 PM
Post: #32
RE: Trinity, Oneness and The Persons of the Godhead
My posts keep getting deleated but ill try again.

The Trinity theory debunked in 5 seconds

One Tree 3 Branches

3 Trees = Idol-i-Tree
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10-16-2011, 03:58 PM
Post: #33
RE: Trinity, Oneness and The Persons of the Godhead
(10-16-2011 03:50 PM)Eliyahu Wrote:  My posts keep getting deleated but ill try again.

The Trinity theory debunked in 5 seconds

One Tree 3 Branches

3 Trees = Idol-i-Tree

Read your email from my website and read the forum rules and the reply to your rude introduction. Stop saying your posts are getting deleted. Threads you start are getting deleted because it violates forum rules. Start abiding the forum rules or you will lose posting privileges.

Vic
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3John 1:4 I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth.
Isaiah 40:31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.
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10-16-2011, 04:01 PM (This post was last modified: 10-16-2011 04:02 PM by Rose of Shushan.)
Post: #34
RE: Trinity, Oneness and The Persons of the Godhead
Welcome to the forum Eliyahu.
Was your post meant to be a bad joke? It wasn't very funny to me.

About your posts being supposedly censored, did you check the forum rules where it says that newbies may not start threads? It helps to prevent us being flooded by spammers as tends to happen on many forums.
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10-16-2011, 04:23 PM (This post was last modified: 10-16-2011 04:24 PM by Eliyahu.)
Post: #35
RE: Trinity, Oneness and The Persons of the Godhead
Mar 12:29 And יהושע answered him, “The first of all the commands is, ‘Hear, O Yisra’ĕl, יהוה our Elohim, יהוה is one.
Mar 12:30 ‘And you shall love יהוה your Elohim with all your heart, and with all your being, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ This is the first command.

the word Elohim is plural. 1 tree 3 branches

the father testifies to love the son and listen to him
the son testifies to love the father and listen to him
the sprit testifies יהושע is the son. as well as all truth

Elohim is one
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10-18-2011, 05:39 PM
Post: #36
RE: Trinity, Oneness and The Persons of the Godhead
(10-16-2011 04:23 PM)Eliyahu Wrote:  Mar 12:29 And יהושע answered him, “The first of all the commands is, ‘Hear, O Yisra’ĕl, יהוה our Elohim, יהוה is one.
Mar 12:30 ‘And you shall love יהוה your Elohim with all your heart, and with all your being, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ This is the first command.

the word Elohim is plural. 1 tree 3 branches

the father testifies to love the son and listen to him
the son testifies to love the father and listen to him
the sprit testifies יהושע is the son. as well as all truth

Elohim is one

Is this Hebrew Roots attempt to explain the Godhead?

What Scripture do you have that says God is 1 tree and 3 branches?

Jesus is God manifest in the flesh, fully man and fully God, and the Son of God. THe Holy Spirit, the Comforter, is the Spirit of God, the Father and the Spirit of Christ that indwells every believer. Jesus refers to the Father and the Holy Spirit as HE and the Spirit of Truth and so on. POst 17 shows the manifestation or presence of all three at the same time, to show the personhood and separateness of each and yet the unity of the Godhead.


Joh 14:16-18
(16) And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
(17) Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
(18) I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.


Joh 14:20
(20) At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

Joh 14:23-26
(23) Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.(24) He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
(25) These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
(26) But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Joh 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

Joh 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart I will send him unto you.

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.


Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
Rom 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

Rom 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Psa 44:21 Shall not God search this out? for he knoweth the secrets of the heart.

Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
Jer 17:10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins,
even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.


These verses were brought to mind about branches and such.


Joh 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
Joh 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
Joh 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
Joh 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
Joh 15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

Act 17:23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
Act 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
Act 17:25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

Act 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
Act 17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
Act 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
Act 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Act 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Col 2:7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
Joh 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
Joh 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
Joh 1:8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
Joh 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Joh 1:15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
Joh 1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
Joh 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
Joh 1:18 [/b] No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. [/b]

Psa 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
Psa 2:8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
Psa 2:9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
Psa 2:10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
Psa 2:11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
Psa 2:12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.


Joh 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
Joh 5:20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
Joh 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
Joh 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
Joh 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Joh 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.


Incidently. THe ISR aka Scriptures you use have changed the word of God many times. You can read about that here:
http://www.seekgod.ca/hr/hrfaqs9a1.htm#isr

I would also like to point out that english and other language readers, do not know what יהוה means and any other Hebrew or Greek for that matter. The New testament was written in Greek, not Hebrew. Paul wrote:


1Co 14:19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.
1Co 14:20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men. [/b]


You can learn about the Hebrew Matthew and so on here: http://www.seekgod.ca/topichr.htm#faqs
> http://www.seekgod.ca/hr/hrfaqs9.htm#heb
> http://www.seekgod.ca/hr/hrfaqs9a.htm#shem

Vic
SeekGod.ca

3John 1:4 I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth.
Isaiah 40:31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.
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10-19-2011, 01:05 AM (This post was last modified: 10-19-2011 01:15 AM by Eliyahu.)
Post: #37
RE: Trinity, Oneness and The Persons of the Godhead
(10-18-2011 05:39 PM)Vic Wrote:  Is this Hebrew Roots attempt to explain the Godhead?


What Scripture do you have that says God is 1 tree and 3 branches?

No. I am not affiliated with any group called "Hebrew Roots" or any other group for that matter. I am an individual with my own beliefs and speak for only myself. The same everybody.

My post was attempting to use a simple analogy to explain something very complicated. I don't want you to think the Elohim is a literal tree or branch.

Elohim is one not three. (Mark 12:29)
Father son and Set-apart Spirit are Elohim
Father son and Set-apart Spirit are One

The Catholic trinity theory(3 separate) does not line up with scripture. How can there be a trinity if Elohim is One? (Mark 12:29) Therefore the Trinity theory is discredited

Emjesown explains it well here:

(01-12-2009 08:52 AM)Emjesown Wrote:  One, not 3.
I was raised catholic and i learnt that God is 3 persons
God the Father, God the Son end God the holy Spirit.
And i learnt to see that is a wrong view.
Gon is a triunity, not a trinity (i am a language-freak)
What's the difference you might ask.
For me there is a big difference.

So I think i am oneness, but not mixed like "oneness-pentecostal" or any other ....oneness +.......

This is my thought on it:

God is ONE
He came in the flesh (Jesus) but still ONE.
Not 2. The Holy Spirit is HIS Spirit therefor HOLY.
We are 3 to in a way....
I EMJE have a body(1)
and a spirit (2), but my spirit is not holy.
And my soul is who i am, character, emotions, mind etc.
But i am still ONE person.

God said: "Let us make men to our likeness......
His likeness is also 3 components (mabey wrong word)
He is Spirit and became a man, and has a Spirit wich is Holy.
I believe Jesus had the same Spirit as God does, He testefy's with His Spirit to our spirit.
When He went away from earth He promised us His Spirit, to convict us, correct us and learn us all He had said, therefor the Holy Spirit is not a person that lives in us, but Hiw power, His spirit.
God is Spirit not to be seen, His Spirit in us is also not to be seen, execept in our actions, the fruit!

I hope i explained it clearly, becaus i find it difficult to express in words what i feel and think about this topic.

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01-14-2013, 01:45 AM (This post was last modified: 04-07-2013 12:44 PM by Vic.)
Post: #38
RE: Trinity, Oneness and The Persons of the Godhead
Hello everyone,

I know that this is an old thread, but I thought topic-wise it was the best match for my post. It's a bit long Ecomcity but hopefully relevant, so please feel free to get comfy... Popcorn

Let me start by stating that I believe the scriptures reveal Jesus Christ to be God manifest in the flesh, the Son of God, the Son of man - fully God and fully man. The Holy Spirit is God, The Father is God, and these three are one. God is one, and there was no God before Him, and there shall be no God after him. I will refer to this as Trinitarian theology for the sake of simplicity. If you need scriptures please let me know, but Vicky and others have done a great job providing references in earlier posts.

Today I came across a ministry online that promotes another version of the Godhead. I'm not sure how to define it, so I thought I'd ask here (and it would be a good way to start posting again, as I've neglected to do so for quite some time). I can't post links to other sites yet, but I will include excerpts and the info so that people can check it out for themselves and verify the statements.

This ministry is called "God's Word First - International Biblical Research & Teaching Ministry" based in Vista, CA. It appears to be led by "ordained minister" and "founder, President and Senior Pastor" Daniel Sweet and his wife Debbra Sweet, who also owns her own website promoting herself as "Author, Speaker, Musician, Marketing Consultant, Business & Certified Health Coach, Sales Trainer & Action Leadership Development Specialist". IMO her strong influence of business, marketing and sales is evident in their shared ministry, which sells a variety of CDs that are mostly about how to: receive healing, learn to speak in tongues, experience miracles, prophesy and have the power of Pentecost. They use a monthly "free special" giveaway to collect email data, and encourage tithes and donations.

While the site makes materials on the gifts of the Spirit readily available, one has to "dig" to find any mention of the gospel or the cross. The new covenant in Christ's blood is mainly mentioned in reference to the promises of Pentecost, rather than those of eternal life. This diminishing and eclipsing of the cross of Christ is never a good thing, IMO. 6775

I also noticed that the logo for their site is a depiction of Borromean rings in black and white. According to one site, Borromean rings are an occult symbol used in "sacred geometry" and date back to second century Buddhist art. They were made famous by an Italian Borromi family, but they are also sometimes used to represent the trinity. The interlocking circles form another occult symbol, the trefoil. Black and white also represents dualism, yin/yang. Finally, his video "How to Speak in Tongues - New Bible Study CD by Daniel Sweet" features a slide with a plethora of occult symbols, including the Christianized "dive-bombing" dove that Vicky shows to be an occult symbol in her article "Hexagrams & Doves": http://www.seekgod.ca/stardoves.htm

Sorry if this seemed off-topic, but I wanted to give some background info on this ministry before I presented their beliefs on the Godhead. Icon_focus

In his article, "The Trinity Explained: Revealing the True Relationship between God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit", Sweet shuns both Modalism and Trinitarianism, stating that they are not supported by the scriptures. He provides an explanation via analogy, saying that God the Father is like the sun, and Jesus is like the light emitted from the Father. He then elaborates:

Quote:Is the light that comes from the sun part of the sun? It depends on how you define the sun. The object in space is like God the Father. The light that comes from that object may be considered part of that object. For even those who don't accept that the light that comes from the sun is part of the sun, will nonetheless look up in the sky and say, "There's the sun.", referring to the light that comes from the sun as if it were the sun. Perhaps this is what Jesus meant in John 14:9 when Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?"

The Holy Spirit is then described as the "heat that comes from the sun". He then gives an analogy similar to EMJE's of the "Soul, Body and Spirit" of man to the Father, Son and Spirit of God, with the Borromean rings next to these words. To quote him:

Quote:As we have three parts - Soul, Body and Spirit - and yet we are one, so also God’s administration has three parts - the Father (Himself), His Son and the Holy Spirit - and yet all act as one forming a perfect governing body. These are each distinct from each other, and yet collectively we can speak of these as being what they are.

Yet in the same article, even though he has just written about three being one, he then contradicts this (and 1 John 5:7-8) by stating the following:

Quote:Take note that the only number ascribed to God in the Holy Bible is One and that there is no inherent threeness ascribed to God explicitly in scripture. The number three is never mentioned in relation to God in scripture, which of course is the number that is central to the word "Trinity".

He then goes on to deny the divinity of Jesus:

Quote:Let’s not confuse what is being said here. It does not say “In the beginning Jesus was the Word, Jesus was with God and Jesus was God”. No! It says what it means and it means what is says.

Quote:“And the Word was with God”. You cannot logically be with someone and also be that person at the same time. To be with someone means that the person you are with is someone other than yourself. Before his birth the man Jesus Christ existed in the foreknowledge of God, not in any other physical or spiritual form. What did exist was the Word. The whole Bible is very clear on this point.

After reading the whole article, it was very clear to me that Sweet denies Jesus Christ is the Word of God, though John made it clear he was writting about Jesus when he spoke of the Word - who else did he mean when he wrote the following:

Quote:"That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;) That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ." ~ 1 John 1:1-3 ~

Sweet continues:

Quote:Then in verse 14 “The Word was made (became) flesh and dwelt among us”. Meaning, Jesus was born. This is the point in time when a separate individual, a person known as Jesus, came into existence. God caused to come into being a human representative who could make the free will choice to live a perfect life and accomplish the great works that God had in store.

Sweet's words contradict the word of Jesus Christ, who made it known that He existed before His incarnation as the second Adam:

Quote:"And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was." ~ John 17:5 ~

In Sweet's theology, if Jesus Christ is God, then He has an "excuse" for living a perfect life, and since we are not God, we can't hope to follow in Christ's footsteps. Sweet finds it more inspiring to believe that Jesus was simply a man who was able to fulfill the law and live perfectly by "his" own will, and not by virtue of any innately divine qualities. Let me reiterate here his wife's background as a motivational speaker and marketer - inspiration is very important when seeking to motivate an audience or target market. Perhaps the "just-your-average-guy" Jesus sells better than the one of scriptures. Smilies-34791

For someone who talks abundantly about the Holy Spirit, Sweet does not seem to comprehend the sanctification process of the Spirit, and how He empowers us to live godly and righteously when we walk after the Spirit. The indwelling Spirit of Christ was not made available to believers before Jesus shed His blood for the forgiveness of sins, and He is still not available to those that deny Christ today. Once we turn to God in repentance of our sins and believe on Jesus His Son, we are regenerate in His Spirit, a new creature - Jesus Christ said "Behold, I make all things new." We are no longer dead in our sins, but set free from the bondage of unrighteousness. It is a new creature that makes the journey towards perfection, not the 'old man' that must be put away.

Sweet's second argument against Christ's divinity goes as follows:

Quote:Jesus was to be the legal sacrifice for our sins. In order to fulfill Mosaic Law, the sacrifice must be a firstling of the flock. (Deut 15:19) God the Father is not of the flock. He is the Father. So, if Jesus was really God incarnate, then He was not of the flock. If that be so, then the law was not fulfilled and we are not saved. Yikes! Lucky for us God the Father got it right. Jesus, who is a separate individual, was born of the flock, was a firstling without blemish and fulfilled the law as our legal propitiation.

This appears to be a false dichotomy and 'straw man' - Trinitarian theology to my knowledge does not argue that Jesus is God the Father. It argues that Jesus is God - fully God and fully man. And being fully man, He was fully qualified to be our sacrificial Lamb while still being God in the flesh. Trinitarianism (triunity) presents the mystery of composite unity in the Godhead.

Sweet ends by saying that Jesus is only called by the ascription 'God' but is not divine in nature, and that Jesus Himself clearly implies this by praying to God the Father as a separate individual.

In another article called " "I Am" Statements of Jesus in the Gospel of John 8:58 Explained", Sweet creates confusion by saying that the Greek words for "I Am" in the NT have a different meaning from the "I Am" of the OT, which Jesus is clearly referring to:

Quote:In order for the Trinitarian view that Jesus’ “I am” statement in John 8:58 makes him God, his statement must be equivalent with God’s “I am” statement in Exodus 3:14. However, the two statements are very different. While the Greek phrase in John does mean “I am,” the Hebrew phrase in Exodus actually means “to be” or “to become.”

Sweet is playing word games here. Is he trying to fool little children? Because I learned in school that "I am" is present tense for the verb "to be". 3120b

Quote:In other words God is saying, “I will be what I will be.” Or “I will become whatever God you need me to be” in reference to the pantheon of gods worshipped by neighboring pagans. The pagans had a different god for everything: A god of the harvest, god of the sun, god of the moon, god of the wind, god of the flies, etc.

I have no idea why Sweet thinks God was telling Moses that He would accommodate man's image of God, and become like the pagan gods ??? Smilies-34787 How this supports his argument, I don't know... 17432

He ends with the following:

Quote:Jesus said in John 8:58 "I am" the Messiah Abraham Spoke of...
Not "I am God"

The phrase “I am” in John 8:58 should be literally translated an emphatic “I, it is I”. If it were translated “I am he” or “I am the one,” like all the other places this Geek [sic] phrase was used it would be easier to see that Christ was identifying himself as the Messiah spoken of by Abraham existing in God’s foreknowledge, not as God appearing as the third person of the trinity.

This just doesn't make any sense at all. Sweet is confusing verse 56, where Jesus talks about Abraham 'seeing His day', with verse 58, where Jesus is talking about BEFORE Abraham was. How can we interpret "Before Abraham was, I am" to mean "I am the Messiah Abraham spoke of"? Abraham wasn't saying a thing before his own existence! Sweet is causing confusion by wresting the scriptures to his own destruction. He is also adding to the word of God by saying that Jesus existed in God's foreknowledge only before His incarnation.

My question is this: Sweet's teachings are obviously not orthodox, because he shuns Trinitarianism, so what brand of heresy is he endorsing?. It's not Modalism, which he shuns. Though his ministry is very charismatic, it's not Oneness Pentecostalism, because they believe that Jesus is God. Is it Arianism? Or is it something else altogether?

Quote:"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached to the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory." ~ 1 Timothy 3:16, AKJ ~

Thanks for reading this lengthy post! 14949

Angie

Quick note on my last post above - the trefoil is also known as the triskele, which Vicky talks about here: http://www.seekgod.ca/warning.htm
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01-16-2013, 12:22 PM
Post: #39
RE: Trinity, Oneness and The Persons of the Godhead
Hi Angie, Nice to see you back. Thanks for posting this. Am working on a response but wanted to say hi. Smiley-greet013

Vic
SeekGod.ca

3John 1:4 I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth.
Isaiah 40:31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.
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01-16-2013, 01:18 PM
Post: #40
RE: Trinity, Oneness and The Persons of the Godhead
Hi Vicky! Looking forward to reading your response. :-)
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