Psychiatry and christian worldview

[sheep wrecked]

(01-22-2009 07:34 PM)strefanash Wrote:  I submit that if they do not have God and do not want him there is NO solution. they will of course run to the shrinks, take their mid deadening drugs (have you ever been on them?) then die and be lost in eternity.

I have known a good share of people who are on drugs to help them cope with life. They are not zoombies, but functioning ably. Without the drugs they would be stark raving mad.

If one's mind is not quieted in order to get the help they need, they cannot focus enough to get help whether that be God or secular counseling. If one can take an ibuprofen for a headache, I have no problem with prozac to calm a person down enough to work through their issues. Better that, than a society full of people who slowly go insane and kill themselves or pick up a shot gun and kill a few dozen kids in school, don't you think?

[strefanash]

Better they should seek the Living God to repent of what is behind their despair.

What you said above is the very excuse the shrinks used to try and blackmail me into staying on their drugs. Had I done so I would have continued to believe that I was ill, so I would never have faced the sin in me whereby i despaired. I would have been an invalid these 30 years with a 40% chance of tics and shakes and drools resulting from brain damage caused by these drugs. Or I may have been dead or even lobotomized, or shocked tortured (yes I use that word delibertately for psych treatment is torture) into conformity with their vision of petit bourgeois morality. For make no mistake, the determining factor for psych intervention is not clinical objective chemical testing, (as it is for diabetes or a host of other illness) it is behaviour, and he who misbehaves in this world is punished. When psych patients are confiend to the day room in their pyjamas this is humiliation and punishment. The idea that this is clinical intervention to "keep an eye" on the suffering is a pack of cynical lies. etc etc etc Oh, that was never me. I saw the writing on the wall, and behaved myself. But to be so degraded and humilated, and to be told to my face that first christian belief is schizophrenia (a majority opinion among them) and seconldy that I WAS LESS THAN HUMAN is proof that the human face of psychiatry is as antichrist (and i use that word deliberately also) as its theory

Was my response to the evils of the world a biochemical genetically determined brain malfunction or sin?

I treat a brain malfunction of possible but i repent of sin, if indeed the new covenant means anything

This question therefore makes a huge difference, but you have skirted every question i have raised and ignored every scripture I have quoted. SO i can hardly be impressed when you staunchly assert that having their agony repressed so they can no longer feel it is better than it staring them in their faces and "frightening the horses" so to speak

Why are you intent on defending the chemical sedation of the suffering by a mindset that is atheist, determinist and secular? No suffering is resolved if it is not faced, and noone can face their suffering if they are drugged. I know of artists who cannot create when under psych drugs. Therefore it represses function, and as for me I was under their drugs and at work, so drugged i kept falling asleep. I told them with all contempt that if the purpose of their treatement was to enable me to hold down a job that being drugged so as to be incapable of doing it was imbecility

As for "well functioning" that is mere appearance. Psychiatry majors in appearances, and it can only be, for the drugs do not address chemical malfiunctions. how can they when for example lithium does not occur in the body?

A researcher was dosing lab rats. He found that when he gave them lithium carbonate that they became quiet. they decided this was a good idea so they dosed inmates in the local madhouse. Clearly the labrats were not ill, but who cares, the inmates in the back ward were silenced for a time.

THIS IS THE RATIONALE FOR MEDICATION, the idea of treating an illness came later

Clearly you do not believe that the psychiatric system is evil and of the world. If you did you would be denouncing it.

I have offered abundant theoretical justification for a rejection of psychiatry, you have merely offered a discernment on the usefulness of drugs which i have refuted as being superficial.

I am not about to help enrich drug pushers (psychiatrists) and their suppliers (the drug companies). and the difference between taking a pain killer for fever or a headache on one hand and to repress psychiatric suffering on the other IS VAST.

I have experienced both. NOT AGAIN. I have had withdrawl symptoms almost as bizarre as my despair, from coming off psych drugs, i who have never so much as smoked a cigarette in my life. NOT AGAIN

and yes i hate psychiatry. it is of the devil. i may forgive them one day but i will NEVER deny the charges i level at them, pseudoscience , torture etc

As christians we have an alternative to drugs; and I have had occasion to discover it.

Why are you defending psychiatrists? Why are you defending the wisdom of the world which will perish?

[Artskoe]

"the Cure" is the Lord's doing is my point. Roman Catholics are convicted of sin, go to confession and are absolved, that's their catharsis. Believers are told, however, to go straight to the Source. Paul told the Corinthians to stop sinning, not to list their sins and therefore feel better. That fact is, your forgiveness was/is affective at the cross. To dwell on our shortfalls is to take our eyes off Christ and His Word. The Word is the reprover, rebuker, etc. The peace we experience is a result of the crosswork of Christ and not our confession.

That being said, there has to be cases where a 'fallen' brain just has to be so affected by stress, birth defects, environment, etc. so as to need some chemical help if a qualified professional deems it so. The debate then becomes 'who?' I can claim all day to my doctor that I'm a mental basket case and my doc (she's the dearest) will just smile and say, "wanna hear my problems?"

[strefanash]

No. catholics are not convicted of sin. They feel guilty about it. there is a HUGE difference. I have already made this clear in previous posts. And they are not absolved by God, for there is no honesty in their recitation of their evildeeds and there is certainly no power in the prestly ritual they seek. But I John 1:9 is about honesty (honest confession which comes from conviction by the Holy Spirit and none else) before the Living God, who is the fount of all power to genuinely cleanse and liberate.

THis is my continuing experience and testimony. And I might add, a testimony which is firmly confirmed by the logic of scripture itself. deep seated emotional attitudes i could not budge disappeared when the Spirit got me to admit them from the heart without equivocation and then when i repented of them from the heart. This is as far as one can get from the legalist obscenity which is the church sacrament of reconciliation as one can get

You have failed to distinguish the counterfeit, listing one's sins, which i call reportage or recitation, from the real thing, confessing ones sins. You have clearly reacted against an abuse and thrown out the baby with the bath water (interesting: the Arabic word Qu'ran means Recite. sometimes i call our recitation Qu'ranning- Koraning, for we have fallen from the real faith just as Muhammed of Mecca did)

The Biblical evidence for my view of I John 1:9 is the very context of the passage. The very next verse is this :"I write to you that you may not sin, but if anyone does sin we have One who intercedes for us."

He was not writing to non christian about how to get saved, he was writing to believers about what to do with sin. Namely confess it as it arises and be cleansed. But the legalistic counterfeit you react against will of course not work. Yet this is no justifitication to give up confession of sin. I hold that one might give up taking the initiative in this and give up seeking to force it, but the Lord will give you and me cleansing by granting convictionand then granting repentance. For true repentance is a gift of God Acts 5:31 anbd Acts 11:18. Let me reiterate: conviction ONLY comes from God and is totally different from our own guilty response to our belief that we are sinners. It is shown by being in thepeace of God that surpasses understanding. I have experienced this daily for years.

It is also written in Romans 2:4 the goodness of God leads to repentance

and James 5:16 Confess your sins one to another.

In both cases the Spirit through the writer was not speaking to non christians about how to get saved, but to christians about how to deal with sin. That catholics and others have counterfeited this does not invalidate the principle

and that is the trouble with your position. Because you deny that christian believers have anything to repent of (do you claim to be sinless? read I John 1: 8) you are forced back to biochemical determinism, the belief that a depressed person is the innocent victim of a malfunctioning brain.

This is all very well but if depression is deeply internalized unbelief that is habituated into a life style (chronic or endogenous depression, and i have been there) to talk of a malfunctioning brain is to avoid the issue of unbelief and sin. And this is to lock the person in his misery for the rest of his life. Or at least will lock thatperson in unbelief for the rest of his life, with his misery cloaked by drugs. And this God will know for he sees the heart even when we cloak it with drugs. For given the truth of what is written above, if he does not confess the sin how can he be forgiven by God and cleansed? how can he be set free? how can he live in the peace that he gives, not as the world gives (ie in a bottle)? how can he live the abundant newness of life that christ offers? Are we to cut our cloth to fit and adjust biblical doctrine so that it is a hard life and always wil be? then we set the word of God at naught for we deny the fruit of the Spirit. Our lives become that grim and stoic abomination that unbelievers geer at when they see it in us, and our soldiering on in our misery rather than repenting of it drives people away from christ, As well as drives us away from him. That is why a tree that bears no fruit is ultimately cast out and burned.

I ask all of you. Which is more spiritual? that the inner nature of sin, unforgiveness, fear - which is unbelief, etc will poison our emotional lives? or that we are the innocent victims of brain malfunction? The fact is that I am astounded to even be asking this question of christians. Is not the answer self evident?


as it is written: out of the heart of man comes evil thoughts. Unbelief is an evil thought. true confession under true conviction of the holy spirit as oppose to our own forced counterfeit recitation or reportage.

Give me a biblical case with equal or greater depth than mine. a couple of verses easily demonstrated to be out of context do not cut it. and as i firmly believe in sola scriptura untill you can present such, and do this by a detailed refutation from scripture of all the points i have made, in the light of assumptions that are fully informed by scripture rather than by the experience of a carnal mind living in a godless world, I will not budge.

[Vic]

Quote:Give me a biblical case with equal or greater depth than mine. a couple of verses easily demonstrated to be out of context do not cut it.

How about we evalauate the whole statement and attitude, Steve, to the Scriptures?

Heb 11:35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:
36 And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment: 37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented; 38 (Of whom the world was not worthy) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

2Co 11:23-28
(23) Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.(24) Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one. (25) Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;(26) In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;
(27) In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.
(28) Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches.

Jas 5:10 Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience.

1Pe 5:6-11
(6) Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:
(7) Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you.
(8) Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
(9) Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.(10) But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.
(11) To him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

I realise we can all think we are in unique trials and such, but while our circumstances vary, the trials really don't.

1Co 10:9-13
(9) Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
(10) Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
(11) Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.(12) Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
(13) There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Heb 12:2-5
(2) Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
(3) For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
(4) Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
(5) And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:

We all have our stories Steve, and struggles. They either help us grow in faith in Christ or show we do not love and trust Him. It's about Him Steve, not ourselves.

[Vic]

I worked in a hospital that was level 3 & 4. It encompassed caring for people who suffered with physical issues from MS to severe arthritis, to dementia and alzheimers. It also included wards-which I worked on--that included those with brain disorders, from those who were by age grown men or women but who had the growth and understanding of a baby or toddler. Some were like preschoolers. There was also the ward with schizophrenics, manic depressive, etc. There were those who were trapped in disabled bodies, unable to communicate even though their minds were sound. I recall one young woman who has since died--had MS from the age of 17. She couldnt speak but had devised a communication by blinking. I saw her frustrated many times, and yet --she came from a Christian home and I believe she went to be with the Lord when she died.

It was interesting the difference in people. There were those whose only communication was swearing and cursing God. There were those who we were told that we were never to speak of Jesus Christ, God, the Bible etc--because they went berserk at the mention of His name. There were those with the same physical ailments, who never cursed.

I should also say, when working the various wards in that hospital, it was very apparent when someone was possessed by a demon versus having to deal with the issues of not knowing Jesus Christ, and of course the physical diseases and so on. I could see and feel it spiritually. It was not a pleasant thing to be around. But the reality of it is, that is the world without Christ.

What I saw and have learned is this.

We live in and are born into a sin filled world and physical, mental and emotional issues, diseases and disabilites are a result of that sin.

God is capable of healing each and every person, and with Jesus Christ we have complete forgiveness of our sins. That can mean we may be healed of some physical issues or it might mean we remain with afflictions to show God's glory and faithfulness through our trust in Him, in spite of our circumstances. Paul was an example of that with his "thorn in the flesh."

Those who do not know Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord are lost. That is a Biblical truth which cannot be disputed. Those who cannot communicate with others---God can still communicate with. That is why all must be given the truth of Jesus Christ. We don't know what they understand or hear spiritually---there is merely a guess. We don't know what or how God may use that obedience--but since we must worship in Spirit and truth-we cannot discount that He knows them in and with the Spirit. We know that with God all things are possible.

Those who do not know Jesus Christ can well be expected to use the things of the world to cope with their lives and issues. Everyone grasps at the straws, and while they will not uphold them--it might get them to the point of hearing the Truth of Christ. Physical, mental or emotional--it's not any different because it boils down to spiritual need, in spite of afflictions.

I think someone said that if we use ibuprofen for headaches we can use something else for uncontrolled rage or something similar. I would agree, only because those without Christ have nothing to turn to, but these worldly things. And it may be used by God to bring that person to a turning point--where they can receive the love of Christ and learn what it is to be free, and have the peace that passes all understanding. Turning to Christ and healing from things can take a lifetime, not because He isn't able, but because we have a tendency to not let Him. Emotional and mental issues seem to take longer at times than dealing with physical shortfalls, for whatever reason.

What I do know is that God draws people to Himself and I think in the end we may be surprised at those who stand with Him, when we thought they could never understand.



If a child can understand....all things are possible with God.

Luk 18:16 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.
Luk 18:17 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.

[Artskoe]

If confession brings salvation, Christ would not have had to go to the cross. If confession brings forgiveness, ditto. RC's err in inserting absolution as well.

John is stating that to be saved from one's sinfulness, one must recognize (confess, agree) that one is a sinner.

Jesus Christ died on the cross and He rose again and you have a new creation, when you believe or trust you are born again, you are in, all sin is forgiven. I Cor.15:3,4. That's grace. Eph 2:8,9.

Are you Baha'i? Had any dealings with them? The reason I ask is your reference to "the Holy Spirit of Jesus," -Just asking.

I do not believe God prohibits the use of pharmaceuticals, or alcohol, or fatty foods (as comfort) for that matter. He warns of the problems of abuse of each one of these, though.

I also believe it is not our place to condemn doctors who are attempting to help humans with brain/neurological problems when all they have is a fallen Adamic nature in themselves and mostly in their patients. We try to understand, we be good ambassadors for Christ and testify to the transformation in us that comes by studying His Word. After that, He alone is the judge.

I am sorry you had a bad experience with them. Please try to forgive and look forward to an abundant life in Christ.