Tithing

[Rose of Shushan]

Quote:Most do not give simply because they dont want to. Do you know that most pastors struggle to buy clothes and shoes for their kids?

Did you know that single mothers, widows or those whos husbands cant work due to illness also struggle?

Why should a pastor live more comfortably than the rest? I am not being mean or anything but why should it be like this. It is about creating distinctions in that somehow you as the pastor should live better than others for some reason. And it goes back to it being a situation which isn’t biblical.And creates resentments amongst all concerned.
Yes you are doing God's work.But aren’t we all meant to be doing God's work. Is the eye more important than the foot? Don’t we all have our place?
The a worker deserves his wages verse I think is often mistakenly used just for church leaders.I think it applies to all of us and to more situations than just pastors and the giving to or supporting particular churches.

[Marcus64]

"Most do not give simply because they dont want to. Do you know that most pastors struggle to buy clothes and shoes for their kids?"

"Why should a pastor live more comfortably than the rest? I am not being mean or anything but why should it be like this. It is about creating distinctions in that somehow you as the pastor should live better than others for some reason. And it goes back to it being a situation which isn’t biblical.And creates resentments amongst all concerned.
Yes you are doing God's work.But aren’t we all meant to be doing God's work. Is the eye more important than the foot? Don’t we all have our place?
The a worker deserves his wages verse I think is often mistakenly used just for church leaders.I think it applies to all of us and to more situations than just pastors and the giving to or supporting particular churches."



I have to agree. Our former pastor always made a point to tell us that we were to support the pastor (mostly financially) and take him as the authority in our lives (even regarding our personal finances). When a visiting missionary came to our church, he would hit us up to pay them, when he held a revival, he would hit us up to pay for it. The "church" funds were mostly used for their own personal bills and needs. He made it clear that he should never have to work. But when he was making enough from the congregation to not have to work, he did nothing else. He even joked about staying home and playing on the computer! That is the problem with the mentality of the so-called "annointed of God"; they want to live lives where they have to do nothing but Sunday mornings and maybe an hour or so during the week.
As you can tell, this is a very bitter subject with me. The current pastor relayed a story of a man who wouldn't pay 10% weekly and was wealthy. When he asked the pastor to come pray with him when he was in the hospital, the pastor wouldn't. His reason was "the guy wouldn't pay tithes to support God's work in the church he attended, and wanted me to use the gas that the tithes from the faithful helped pay for to go visit him". What a shame. It is very true, pastors today want to live comfortably at the cost of the congregation. I have NEVER found any scripture that shows that. When the Word of God is twisted, it can be taken that way. It's so sad. If "giving" were taught and accepted that people give "as they have", I think that there would be an outpouring of money and God would bless the churches greatly. Until the "Holier-than-thou" mentality of pastors ceases and they truly humble themselves, God is not going to increase their flocks.

[heb13-13]

There are some horrible stories about tithing and the problems that have been caused between the Leadership and those that they "Lead". Most marriage problems revolve around money and it's no different in the Institutional Church.

When my wife was 13 years old, a fellowship was started in her house, and this fellowship got quite big. It started just through her Mother and some friends. They heard about a man of God and asked him to come and teach them. The Church in their living room grew to 80+ people.

This man of God grew into their Pastor. He never once spoke about money and lived completely by faith. God met his needs. I don't know where all the provision came from but obviously the people in the church gave to him.

He did not believe in taking a salary, he believed in being completely dependent on God. This is a rarity today. Most are dependent upon man, and they never miss an opportunity to tell you that. This brother I am talking about never talked about his needs except to God.

He did not have an entitlement attitude towards the Church. Most in his fellowship were living paycheck to paycheck. The only way to squeeze money out of people that live paycheck to paycheck is to teach them the Prosperity Gospel. "Give what you don't have and God will meet your needs". This brother new the reality of dependence on God and new the folly of the Prosperity Gospel.

Where God guides he provides is what he said. He raised 5 children. One daughter is a Phd at Kent State, 2 sons own their own businesses. My wife found out later that they lived a quite meager life but always had their needs met. They were not a family with "long" faces but were full of joy. Everyone played instruments and they loved to get together with the church and sing old hymns and songs from scripture that magnified the Lord.

I met this brother when I married my wife. He married us. What a blessing it was. I have seldom met a man of God so full of the Spirit of God. Full of joy and confidence in His God. I never heard a negative thing out of his mouth and there is no report that anyone else did, either.

They outgrew the living room and moved to the Civic Center at City Hall. It was free. Different people left the church because they always wanted this Pastor to institute this program or that program and he would not. They saw what the church down the street was doing and wanted to be like them. They wanted a building built and he would not. As time passed it became evident that those who gave to him did it with strings attached.

And herein lies the problem. Strings attached. And it works both ways, folks.


If you cannot give to a man of God without strings attached, DON'T GIVE.

If you cannot receive from people gratefully and without resentment or feelings of being cheated, then DON'T RECEIVE.

Eventually, these women ran off this precious man of God who laid down his life for them. Was he bitter? No. He is busy about the Master's Work.

Gen 15:1 After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.

[pastor_chris]

You know what! You people have no idea what a pastor goes through in a local congregation! It is obvious that there is an anti-clerical bias on this forum. Pastors sacrifice more than any people I know period! In most congregations the member have boats, go on vacations, have nice big houses, and new clothes. The pastor and his family dont have any of those things! Pastors work 40-70 hours a week and are on call 24 hours a day. We do not get days off, we get hammered when we take a vacation, and then we have church members that complain that we make "too much money" when our kids are in clothes from a thrift store and need new shoes.

The above posts are based on pure ignorance. The idea that a pastor works an hour a week plus Sunday is written by someone who hates pastors and has no idea how much study goes into a 35 minute sermon. Maybe I dont belong on this forum!

[Vic]

(07-23-2009 01:10 PM)pastor_chris Wrote:  You know what! You people have no idea what a pastor goes through in a local congregation! It is obvious that there is an anti-clerical bias on this forum. Pastors sacrifice more than any people I know period! In most congregations the member have boats, go on vacations, have nice big houses, and new clothes. The pastor and his family dont have any of those things! Pastors work 40-70 hours a week and are on call 24 hours a day. We do not get days off, we get hammered when we take a vacation, and then we have church members that complain that we make "too much money" when our kids are in clothes from a thrift store and need new shoes.

The above posts are based on pure ignorance. The idea that a pastor works an hour a week plus Sunday is written by someone who hates pastors and has no idea how much study goes into a 35 minute sermon. Maybe I dont belong on this forum!

Chris,

You need to step back and take a deep a breath and ask God to cool you down.

It is very obvious you are having a rough time as a pastor. It appears you are under considerable attack and are struggling. But you need to understand Chris---what you have listed as deficits and issues as a pastor can actually be common for those who actually serve Christ full time, simply as fellow believers.

1Co 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

I can take that list and apply it to my own life---doing my website and forum. Research and writing and taking the heat---daily...and we haven't had a vacation-we don't normally take any ....5 yrs ago---we took a week for our anniversary. We had 3 days last summer. That's leaving on a Friday afternoon and back by Sunday evening.

We don't have a boat, camper, cottage, the big house---still doing repairs and trying to get gyproc on some of the walls of our small bungalow which God provided-it's a bit bigger than the last one---have bought clothing and things from garage sales and thrift stores, couldn't attend our son's wedding due to distance and cost,(which was a difficult thing to deal with) and we support this ministry fulltime ourselves. I do the website, the research, the writing, the forum...it's all my responsibility...and then the emails....I generally am on the computer by early to mid morning to evening, 7 days a week-although as I need a break, I take it now. I used to do 14-16 hr days--but do not do that any longer if I can help it. And God continues to provide all our needs...on limited resources. I am not complaining...I am stating a fact. And I am thankful that it is all in God's capable hands.

You think you are trapped it seems. By an unsupportive congregation that plays the slots and gambles and complains and doesn't support you...or your family. Does it occur to you that they either don't know Christ or have lost their love for Him if that is their focus and attitude? Have you addressed it with them from your heart and the Scriptures?

What is wrong with purchasing at a thrift store Chris? Don't other people buy things there also..for their wives, husbands, children?

Is it pride or coveting what others have that makes it an issue?

Heb 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
Heb 13:6 So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me.

You know what Chris, it can hurt serving Christ. But He promised He would never leave us or forsake us.

Romans 8:31-39 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? 32. He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? 33. Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. 34. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. 35. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36. As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. 37. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. 38. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39. Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

And He promised to supply ALL our NEEDS. Are you doubting He is doing that? Or is what He is providing at this time simply not good enough for you?

You may be a dedicated pastor Chris, but you don't appear to be a happy pastor or one resting in the Lord. Further, accusing those posters of ignorance is inappropriate.

You don't know what these people have come out of --to feel that way--and relaying those experiences may not feel real nice to you--but if that is their experience, it's their truth of the matter.

Why not show what a Christ loving and Christ serving pastor is really like. Or is how you have presented your post what you really want people to think of as a pastor who loves Jesus, but has no joy serving him and resents anything but a glowing pat on the back simply because you have the title of pastor.

You are on the right forum Chris. You are supposed to be here. Ask God why....and don't leave just because it suddenly got difficult....

We are brothers and sisters in Christ, for those who love Jesus, and we are to help one another. It's up to you if you receive that help and encouragement.

Step back and don't try to be a pastor here, Chris, just be a brother in Christ.

[pastor_chris]

If I was too harsh I am sorry. Seriously. I am a happy man. I am very happy and very blessed So maybe my post doesnt reflect my contentment and for that I am sorry. What gets me riled up is the Us VS. Them mentality that I see on this forum. Pastors are indeed brothers in Christ and there have been many shots at them as though they were uner the judgment of the poster. I felt I needed to defend the men that work so hard and sacrifice so much to feed God's people. None of you understand, this is quite obvious.

My point is that in the riches t country in the West Pastors are treated as second class citizens by the church itself. The reality is that if you compare a pastors salary with the median income of the people he serves he usually is at the bottom of the scale, or atleast the bottom part of the middle. I hear how Preachers "are in it for the money" and it makes me furious because it is such a Satanic lie!

Let me share. I made double what I make now before I entered the ministry. I had a very lucrative and promising career with benefits, car allowance, expense accounts the whole nine yards. I surrendered all of it to take a small church in a tiny little town. My children have been physically abused by church members, (on more than one occassion) I have been cursed out and yelled at by church "leaders" and my family has been forced to move (sell our home) twice because of ungodly church members that created unhealthy conflict.

I am happy in Jesus. I love my call. I Love to teach and preach God's word. I know my rewards lie in heaven. But I do not like hearing fellow believers hammer men and their families who lay their lives down every single day for Jesus. Regardless of how faithful you are to Jesus you have no idea how intense the sacrifice is when you pastor a local church. You have no privacy. You have no time off. You have no way to "get away". This is going to be misinterpreted and if so then so be it, but you guys need to pray for the pastor instead of bashing him. He is responsibnle for your souls! he carries that burden every day! And when he makes a mistake there is little grace or forgivness from church members.

I would never trade my call for anything! But I would pray (and I do) that God would show his people how they should treat men who devote themselves to caring for the flock of God. Please! Please ! Listen!! Pastors need to be loved and appreciated. Most make less than a school teachr does and they are doing the most important work in the world, feeding God's sheep. Love your pastor! Bless Him! Give generously to the ministry!!! This is the heart of God!

[sheep wrecked]

(07-23-2009 07:50 PM)pastor_chris Wrote:  If I was too harsh I am sorry. Seriously. I am a happy man. I am very happy and very blessed So maybe my post doesnt reflect my contentment and for that I am sorry. What gets me riled up is the Us VS. Them mentality that I see on this forum. Pastors are indeed brothers in Christ and there have been many shots at them as though they were uner the judgment of the poster. I felt I needed to defend the men that work so hard and sacrifice so much to feed God's people. None of you understand, this is quite obvious.

My point is that in the riches t country in the West Pastors are treated as second class citizens by the church itself. The reality is that if you compare a pastors salary with the median income of the people he serves he usually is at the bottom of the scale, or atleast the bottom part of the middle. I hear how Preachers "are in it for the money" and it makes me furious because it is such a Satanic lie!

Let me share. I made double what I make now before I entered the ministry. I had a very lucrative and promising career with benefits, car allowance, expense accounts the whole nine yards. I surrendered all of it to take a small church in a tiny little town. My children have been physically abused by church members, (on more than one occassion) I have been cursed out and yelled at by church "leaders" and my family has been forced to move (sell our home) twice because of ungodly church members that created unhealthy conflict.

I am happy in Jesus. I love my call. I Love to teach and preach God's word. I know my rewards lie in heaven. But I do not like hearing fellow believers hammer men and their families who lay their lives down every single day for Jesus. Regardless of how faithful you are to Jesus you have no idea how intense the sacrifice is when you pastor a local church. You have no privacy. You have no time off. You have no way to "get away". This is going to be misinterpreted and if so then so be it, but you guys need to pray for the pastor instead of bashing him. He is responsibnle for your souls! he carries that burden every day! And when he makes a mistake there is little grace or forgivness from church members.

I would never trade my call for anything! But I would pray (and I do) that God would show his people how they should treat men who devote themselves to caring for the flock of God. Please! Please ! Listen!! Pastors need to be loved and appreciated. Most make less than a school teachr does and they are doing the most important work in the world, feeding God's sheep. Love your pastor! Bless Him! Give generously to the ministry!!! This is the heart of God!

Chris,

The Pastor is not the guardian of my soul. Jesus is all that and more. He is the one who feeds us, not the Pastor. Jesus is the Living Water and the Manna from Heaven. You elevate yourself above Him with your words and your attitude.

The pastor is the servant. As Rose pointed out, the pastor is no better than the foot or the big toe in the body. We are to encourage and support each other, speaking the Word to every one, not put a man on a pedestal to spoon feed the Word to the "underlings". You are speaking as one who considers himself to be the "Domini", the anointed, the man of God, the man of the hour, whatever. The body of Christ does not need that.

The body of Christ is self sufficient. Jesus is our Shepherd, not a man. Giving money to the church is self edifying, not the furtherance of the Gospel.

Paul was a tentmaker. He supported himself. He only took money to help fund his missionary journeys and only took that which was cheerfully given from the heart. You are looking for the wrong way to get support for yourself. Not only are you in error for believing that your congregants "owe" you, but you also err in your perception that your position is of great value to the body of Christ. I assure you that this concept is over inflated and is self aggrandizement.

For someone who wants to be called "pastor" you seem to have a rather puffed up view of yourself. You are not happy, you are miserable. Which only proves that what you have been taught about being a pastor is way off base.

If members of your church are causing that much abuse to your kids, you need to get out. It is spiritually and mentally destructive. If someone were abusing my children, I would get the heck out of Dodge before my next heart beat. What are you thinking?????

What makes a man stay where he and his family are abused and cursed? I think you have a very strange way at looking at things. What this confirms to me, is what I believe - that the "office" of pastor has been misapplied and misused by today's church. The system has major flaws and you appear to be one of the casualties.

[Mark]

Pastor Chris,

I apologize if the comments I made offended you in any way. It is not my intent to stir up any harsh feelings on this forum. I was merely relating my personal experience with tithing.
I have a great deal of respect for pastors. I believe that many have truly received a calling from God that other believers have not. I cannot say whether it is an easy task or not as I have never had to undertake it myself. My experience with my former pastor certainly does not mean that all others operate the same way.
I can relate to one thing you mentioned and that is buying from the thrift stores. My wife and I both work 40 hours per week and make decent wages. We have 2 children, 11 and 14. We provide the necessities and see that there is a roof overhead and food on the table. They do not have the luxuries many of their classmates are used to having (cellphones, ipods, televisions in their rooms, etc.) and they are at the age where they sometimes question it. Some things we do not believe they need and some things we would like them to be able to have, but we are unable to spend the kind of money it costs on them.
We often have to buy their clothes at the local thrift stores and that is fine with them and with us. We find some great bargains there. We also donate to the store as well.
The whole tithing issue for me is mainly due to the attitude our pastor had about us giving when we didn't have it to give. It was not giving with a cheerful attitude, it was given out of pressure and that is not right. Our children went without new shoes though they needed them badly, and his kids got new cellphones, game systems, Nike sneakers, and mp3 players courtesy of the church because he did not work a secular job. Is this what God wanted us to tithe for? Not as far as I've ever read in the Scriptures. When tithing was down due to several members leaving, he upped the ante by challenging us to give more so God could bless us more. Our kids still went without things and theirs continued to gain. How is that for obeying the "man of God"? Do you think it made God happy to see him prosper and others suffer? He used many of the same lines that you have spoken of about "respecting the man of God", "submitting to the authority of the pastor" and "following the shepherd's instructions". Well, now the church is down to 4 people and working on it's 3rd pastor.
I believe in supporting the pastor.But he is not any higher up or closer to God than I am. If a pastor truly believes that, they have obviously not really read God's Word thoroughly. Whenever the pastor had financial problems, he called on the church. When we had a financial problem, we were told to call on God. Who has more faith?
Anyway, I am sorry that you feel the way you do about this posting. Again, I apologize if anything I said offended you in any way. Please forgive me. I pray that the Lord will soon open all of our eyes and let us see through His eyes what true love for one another really is. Maybe then we can forget about the whole money thing and just trust God completely. He said He would never leave us nor forsake us.

God Bless,

Mark

[heb13-13]

Chris,

Would you mind sharing with the board how you were called by God?

This last sentence really bothers me and I am beginning to feel like you ain't for real.

(07-23-2009 07:50 PM)pastor_chris Wrote:  Please! Please ! Listen!! Pastors need to be loved and appreciated. Most make less than a school teachr does and they are doing the most important work in the world, feeding God's sheep. Love your pastor! Bless Him! Give generously to the ministry!!! This is the heart of God!

I've got bad news for you. The heart of God is Jesus Christ, not YOU.

And you are ranting on and on about how you are being abused and your family is being abused and how the church is treating you badly, etc., etc., etc.

And YOU are attacking us for telling you the truth? You are confirming everything that we are saying.

Why don't you take a couple of days off and just pray and consider everything that has been said to you, and it wasn't just by me.

Really man, take a break. Don't you have a plurality of elders? Can't you take a week off or something? Is there anyone at your church that you consider a close brother that truly loves Jesus that can take over for awhile? What am I saying???

I'm sorry, Chris, what I should have said is, if you have taught your congregation well, then you have taught them to hold fast to the HEAD (Jesus) and that would definitely be very Biblical. And therefore you should be able to take at least a month off.

You see, if they are holding fast to the Head, they will be just fine. then there must be many in the congregation that are just bursting with good things from Jesus that they want to share with everyone. They could just meet on their own for a month and share with each other their testimonies. Testimonies are always real encouraging and build up the Body in a wonderful way. You would come back and your congregation would be very happy and blessed.

How else are you going to TEST what you are teaching them? You are teaching them to stand on their own with Jesus, ONLY. Right? I'm sure you are not teaching them to be dependent upon you. That would not be right, would it Chris? That would be taking SOMEONE else's place.

If you are raising children, you know what I mean. They can't be suckling the breast their whole life, right? Gotta wean them sometime. Have you done that, yet or is everyone still babies???

There are probably people in your congregation that are just itching to show you that they are grown up in the Lord and can stand on their two feet. You might just be surprised what they are hearing from the Lord.


Col 2:18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
Col 2:19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.

[Vic]

Chris, so far you are not giving anyone a chance to warm up to you as a person. You are demanding respect and double honor--because of who you think you are. For all I know, you are just a bar fly...because there is nothing you have said to make me think you are really living for and serving Christ, with LOVE for Him or anyone but yourself and those you claim are in horrific circumstances as pastors. Your example and behavior on this forum is not worthy of our Savior, whom you say you love.

I've known many pastors Chris, and some read my site and use it regularly. Some have asked for research help. You see Chris, they view each brother and sister as equal in Christ. They know many people who are committed to Christ sacrifice deeply serving our Lord and Savior, but it can never be even close to what Christ did for us. NO ONE has the onus on that.

You think you are unique, that your call is special, and that makes the trials and hardships you have so much worse than what anyone else can even comprehend. Therefore, you must be much better as a person. And with that is the required adulation and elevation of yourself and those like you. I don't put anyone on a pedestal Chris. Only Christ.

I think there are people who have known far greater hardships than any pastor or anyone else in North America....or anywhere.

Let's take a quick perusal shall we, in the Scriptures, which tell us what is what and who is who, and who has really suffered for Christ, and who are our examples of committment, sacrifice, suffering, and yet praising God, and rejoicing in that suffering, and not complaining about it, resenting it or cursing those who "mistreated" them. And most didn't even have a home to complain about.

Hebrews 11:33-40 Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, 34. Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. 35. Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection: 36. And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment: 37. They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented; 38. (Of whom the world was not worthy they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. 39. And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40. God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Hebrews 12:1-7 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2. Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3. For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds. 4. Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. 5. And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: 6. For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. 7. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

Heb 12:13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.
14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;

2 Corinthians 11:17-30 That which I speak, I speak it not after the Lord, but as it were foolishly, in this confidence of boasting. 18. Seeing that many glory after the flesh, I will glory also. 19. For ye suffer fools gladly, seeing ye yourselves are wise. 20. For ye suffer, if a man bring you into bondage, if a man devour you, if a man take of you, if a man exalt himself, if a man smite you on the face. 21. I speak as concerning reproach, as though we had been weak. Howbeit whereinsoever any is bold, (I speak foolishly,) I am bold also. 22. Are they Hebrews? so am I. Are they Israelites? so am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? so am I. 23. Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft. 24. Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one. 25. Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep; 26. In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren; 27. In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness. 28. *** Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches. *** 29. Who is weak, and I am not weak? who is offended, and I burn not? 30. If I must needs glory, I will glory of the things which concern mine infirmities.

1 Corinthians 4:9-16 For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men. 10. We are fools for Christ's sake, but ye are wise in Christ; we are weak, but ye are strong; ye are honourable, but we are despised. 11. Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwellingplace; 12. And labour, working with our own hands: **being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it:** 13. Being defamed, we intreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day. 14. I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you. 15. For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. 16. Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.

2 Corinthians 6:1-10 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain. 2. (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.) 3. Giving no offence in any thing, that the ministry be not blamed: 4. But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses, 5. In stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labours, in watchings, in fastings; 6. By pureness, by knowledge, by longsuffering, by kindness, by the Holy Ghost, by love unfeigned, 7. By the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left, 8. By honour and dishonour, by evil report and good report: as deceivers, and yet true; 9. As unknown, and yet well known; as dying, and, behold, we live; as chastened, and not killed; 10. As sorrowful, yet alway rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, and yet possessing all things.

Act 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep

Did you forget Chris that the servant is not greater than the Master. If He suffered, so shall we. He was persecuted and that is part of ALL our calling when we belong to Him. It's not just for certain members of the Body Chris. Jesus said if we loved Him we would suffer persecution.

There are many wolves in sheeps clothing, Chris, masquerading as guardians of the sheep, and leading them astray. It's Biblical. There are many warnings about these things and if you can't see it then you are lacking Scriptural knowledge and discernment. You know you are seeing it with the influx of HR. And it's pastors who are opening the doors to it. Unless, they are really grounded in the Word and know Christ.

Instead of demanding pastors need to be loved and appreciated, you might wish to show the love of Christ to those brothers and sisters in Christ who read this forum and are members, as well as the thousands of readers--saved and unsaved--who now have a true picture of a "Christian" pastor in action.

Need I say more?