Tithing

[sheep wrecked]

(07-28-2009 09:17 AM)Mark Wrote:  As for the before the law thing, we were told that since Abraham gave to Melchizedec, that it was a precursor to tithing. Since Melchizedec "had no beginning or end", he was a type of Christ which went into the New Testament and therefore showed that we were still expected to tithe.

If Heb 13-13 is going to hit the tithing of the mint text, I will zoom in on this one

If one reads the passage, Abraham gave Melchy a 10th of the "spoils of war". It was not money. We could say that Abram gave the "firstfirsts" of the goods that he took as victor of the battle.

Gen 14:9 With Chedorlaomer the king of Elam, and with Tidal king of nations, and Amraphel king of Shinar, and Arioch king of Ellasar; four kings with five.
Gen 14:10 And the vale of Siddim was full of slimepits; and the kings of Sodom and Gomorrah fled, and fell there; and they that remained fled to the mountain.
Gen 14:11 And they took all the goods of Sodom and Gomorrah, and all their victuals, and went their way.
Gen 14:12 And they took Lot, Abram's brother's son, who dwelt in Sodom, and his goods, and departed.
Gen 14:13 And there came one that had escaped, and told Abram the Hebrew; for he dwelt in the plain of Mamre the Amorite, brother of Eshcol, and brother of Aner: and these were confederate with Abram.
Gen 14:14 And when Abram heard that his brother was taken captive, he armed his trained servants, born in his own house, three hundred and eighteen, and pursued them unto Dan.
Gen 14:15 And he divided himself against them, he and his servants, by night, and smote them, and pursued them unto Hobah, which is on the left hand of Damascus.
Gen 14:16 And he brought back all the goods, and also brought again his brother Lot, and his goods, and the women also, and the people.
Gen 14:17 And the king of Sodom went out to meet him after his return from the slaughter of Chedorlaomer, and of the kings that were with him, at the valley of Shaveh, which is the king's dale.
Gen 14:18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.
Gen 14:19 And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth:
Gen 14:20 And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.
Gen 14:21 And the king of Sodom said unto Abram, Give me the persons, and take the goods to thyself.
Gen 14:22 And Abram said to the king of Sodom, I have lift up mine hand unto the LORD, the most high God, the possessor of heaven and earth,
Gen 14:23 That I will not take from a thread even to a shoelatchet, and that I will not take any thing that is thine, lest thou shouldest say, I have made Abram rich:
Gen 14:24 Save only that which the young men have eaten, and the portion of the men which went with me, Aner, Eshcol, and Mamre; let them take their portion.

In Hebrews, it shows us that the tithe Abram gave was the precursor of the Levitical priesthood, because Abram had "Aaron" [the High Priest] in his "loins".

When God gave the covenant to Israel, the tithe or the fruitfruits of their crops and cattle, were given to the Levites for their upkeep and for sacrifices. The Levities then tithed what they were given to the widows and orphans. There was no money involved

And for those who try to promote the tithe of one's income to equate it to the old covenant's system, it does not work - that covenant was given to the nation of Israel! And the NT never teaches "tithing"

Another interesting thing, is that the church has promulgated the 10% tithe as an "eternal" designated amount due to the old "testament" and then use Malachi 3 to prove their point - that one should not keep the tithe from the Lord or they will be cursed or some other nonsense. If Christians are in the New Covenant of Christ's blood, and believe that the old covenant was replaced by the New Covenant, then why are they following an old covenant law of "tithing" - albeit twisted and contorted from the original intent???

[Strefanash]

(07-28-2009 08:56 AM)heb13-13 Wrote:  

(07-28-2009 02:23 AM)Strefanash Wrote:  One thing they dont tell you is that when the say that tithing was practiced before the law so it should be practiced AFTER the law, is that they are saying it should be practised AS a law (ie a compulsory ordinance you do whether you do feel like it or not.
That it to say a living or dead work is seen not by its nature but by its motive, and compulsory works are DEAD DEAD DEAD

Amen, Strefanash! You are right, they practice it as a LAW, TODAY!!

One thing that I am going to mention soon is all the many areas of a person's life (family, extended family, etc) they have to neglect in order to cough up their tithe payment.

I usually work from memory, but the verse I refer to is I think one you know

"If any neglect his family he is worse than an unbeliever, he has denied the faith"

Titus, I think.

BTW An experience of mine: I believe that the SPirit told me, years ago "not so much as a penny piece from you child. I do NOT want your money unless you think you bought your healing". My experience in the 26 yewars since has borne this out

Also, back to scripture, in Isaiah chap 1 God said in anger at his people "who commanded of you this trampling of my courts . . . do not profane me with your gifts"

they assembled out of duty, which entirely missed the point of the commandment, and God was insulted by it.

I seriously hold that to offer anything to God by force out of duty is to insult him. if we donr want to give it (hence the recourse to duty, an elemental principle of the world, all they have to keep surviving as a civilization) he does not want to receive it, for our forced giving is not of our best, it is of the off scouring, the despised left over, not necessarily of our substance property or wealth, but the despised leftover of our hearts.

thats why the church invocation :"GIVE UNTIL IT HURTS" is such a foul blasphemy, and definitely making merchandize of our God: because it hurts when it goes beyond our willingness and cheerfulness into the realm of extortion

[heb13-13]

(07-28-2009 04:09 PM)Strefanash Wrote:  Also, back to scripture, in Isaiah chap 1 God said in anger at his people "who commanded of you this trampling of my courts . . . do not profane me with your gifts"

they assembled out of duty, which entirely missed the point of the commandment, and God was insulted by it.

I seriously hold that to offer anything to God by force out of duty is to insult him. if we donr want to give it (hence the recourse to duty, an elemental principle of the world, all they have to keep surviving as a civilization) he does not want to receive it, for our forced giving is not of our best, it is of the off scouring, the despised left over, not necessarily of our substance property or wealth, but the despised leftover of our hearts.

thats why the church invocation :"GIVE UNTIL IT HURTS" is such a foul blasphemy, and definitely making merchandize of our God: because it hurts when it goes beyond our willingness and cheerfulness into the realm of extortion

He owns the Cattle on a Thousands Hills. He has everything except ONE THING. There is only one thing in the entire universe that He cannot TAKE.

It is our heart. We must give it to Him. I love what you are saying Stref, because this is what I believe about our relationship with our Heavenly Father. It is based on Love.

A man told me once, "Your Father is not your Dad". I contemplated this for a minute and after he repeated himself, I realized what he was saying.

Do not look at your Heavenly Father through the filter of your earthly father.

My earthly father required performance. He did not say that, but I "knew" that if I wanted his praise I should do this or do that.

To know that we have found this kind of love, and that it exists, is incredible. We truly can REST in it.

Stref, would you do me a favor? Contemplate this scripture and share with me when you can, what it means to you?

Zep 3:17 The LORD thy God in the midst of thee is mighty; he will save, he will rejoice over thee with joy; he will rest in his love, he will joy over thee with singing.

Blessings to you, in Christ,

Rick

[Strefanash]

Stref, would you do me a favor? Contemplate this scripture and share with me when you can, what it means to you?

Zep 3:17 The LORD thy God in the midst of thee is mighty; he will save, he will rejoice over thee with joy; he will rest in his love, he will joy over thee with singing.

Blessings to you, in Christ,

Rick


Strefanash: honest response?
I could give you the right response, i could preach a sermon on it, but there would be no point So honestly, what does this passage mean to me? nothing at all.

I simply cannot believe that God loves. the only understanding of god i have in my deepest being is that of the angry judge who i live in fear of, and this is not fear as in reverence, it is fear as in mortal terror, and it lingers though by His intervention it is being pared down as i repent at his leading.

dont try to help me, i know the truth, i just cannot bring myself to believe it; and i know the solution: the Holy Spirit himself will lead me to repent of whatever is necessary.

I am in fact in a good situation: i am admitting to the humbug and hypocrisy that is my religion. this is far better in god's eyes than forcing myself to think biblically then calling this forced and feigned thought faith, for it is no such thing.

it is being honest to God, something he can deal with

---

Do not look at your Heavenly Father through the filter of your earthly father.

My earthly father required performance. He did not say that, but I "knew" that if I wanted his praise I should do this or do that.

Stref:

the fact is I never did view God as anything like my earthly father. My father, who died a frew months ago, was a jovial chap, generous, kind, though somewhat weak willed and foolish. But there was no trace of faith in my upbringing, my parenst were secular religiously indifferent.

I looked out at the world and at history. i totally misunderstood the verse "my ways are not yours" and concluded that because I wanted love joy and peace God would never give me these, that he was dangerous and angry, like the kings and emperors of history.

Also, i was totally terrified by a sermon i heard on tv as a boy, even though it was on pollyanna, the 1960 walt disney production to wit "DEATH IS WAITING TO SWALLOW YOU UP"; also a religious programme on the 4 horses of the apocalypse, featuring the Durer prints, and the voice of the narrator said, as the camera focussed oin the eyes of the 4th horse AND HIS NAME WAS DEATH.

to a small boy whose name was Death? God's.

Alsoi as a child it was made totally clear to me that the way to avoid rejection was by obeying the rules. this was the hamfisted brutality of the primary school system in the 1960's.

Hence I campaign againt legalism as legalism is my besetting sin

So it continues. this is trauma and a choice so deeply made that I cannot shift it even after 31 years a christian and over 40 years after the event.

DONT try to counsel me. many attempts by men have only made it worse, and they have desised me in their hearts after their counsel did not work. This has happened time and time again, so I learn not to seek it. The Holy and Terrible Himself will lead me to repent as is necessary and i shall be free indeed

[heb13-13]

(07-28-2009 07:05 PM)Strefanash Wrote:  DONT try to counsel me. many attempts by men have only made it worse, and they have desised me in their hearts after their counsel did not work. This has happened time and time again, so I learn not to seek it. The Holy and Terrible Himself will lead me to repent as is necessary and i shall be free indeed

I understand, thanks for your honesty and the warning.

[Vic]

(07-28-2009 07:05 PM)Strefanash Wrote:  Strefanash: honest response?
I could give you the right response, i could preach a sermon on it, but there would be no point So honestly, what does this passage mean to me? nothing at all.

I simply cannot believe that God loves. the only understanding of god i have in my deepest being is that of the angry judge who i live in fear of, and this is not fear as in reverence, it is fear as in mortal terror, and it lingers though by His intervention it is being pared down as i repent at his leading.

dont try to help me, i know the truth, i just cannot bring myself to believe it; and i know the solution: the Holy Spirit himself will lead me to repent of whatever is necessary.

I am in fact in a good situation: i am admitting to the humbug and hypocrisy that is my religion. this is far better in god's eyes than forcing myself to think biblically then calling this forced and feigned thought faith, for it is no such thing.

it is being honest to God, something he can deal with

---

Do not look at your Heavenly Father through the filter of your earthly father.

My earthly father required performance. He did not say that, but I "knew" that if I wanted his praise I should do this or do that.

Stref:

the fact is I never did view God as anything like my earthly father. My father, who died a frew months ago, was a jovial chap, generous, kind, though somewhat weak willed and foolish. But there was no trace of faith in my upbringing, my parenst were secular religiously indifferent.

I looked out at the world and at history. i totally misunderstood the verse "my ways are not yours" and concluded that because I wanted love joy and peace God would never give me these, that he was dangerous and angry, like the kings and emperors of history.

Also, i was totally terrified by a sermon i heard on tv as a boy, even though it was on pollyanna, the 1960 walt disney production to wit "DEATH IS WAITING TO SWALLOW YOU UP"; also a religious programme on the 4 horses of the apocalypse, featuring the Durer prints, and the voice of the narrator said, as the camera focussed oin the eyes of the 4th horse AND HIS NAME WAS DEATH.

to a small boy whose name was Death? God's.

Alsoi as a child it was made totally clear to me that the way to avoid rejection was by obeying the rules. this was the hamfisted brutality of the primary school system in the 1960's.

Hence I campaign againt legalism as legalism is my besetting sin

So it continues. this is trauma and a choice so deeply made that I cannot shift it even after 31 years a christian and over 40 years after the event.

DONT try to counsel me. many attempts by men have only made it worse, and they have desised me in their hearts after their counsel did not work. This has happened time and time again, so I learn not to seek it. The Holy and Terrible Himself will lead me to repent as is necessary and i shall be free indeed

You know Stref, I can understand your views of God. I came from an abusive home. Relationships were skewed and the authoritarian unloving image of my parents hindered and skewed my view of God for a long time. In fact, when I thought of God, I had this image in the distance of my mind that sort of looked like my dad.

I knew it was terribly wrong. I knew that God loved me. I knew that Christ died for me, and I knew it could not be the same as what I saw growing up. And even the demonstration of love at times amongst believers skewed my views. It took time for me to realise and understand what real love was--even with my husband. I think God used him to show me the difference of real love, as is humanly possible. Then I was able to gain real understanding of what God's love was--and how it surpassed anything I could even know as a human being.

That was a freeing time.

It took time to believe that God would love me no matter what. Conditional love, based on performance, was no longer an option to view Him with. I had to learn how great His love was, with the sacrifice of Jesus. I learned as a parent, what it meant to have 2 babies die--and even through that, I gained understanding of His love, as He carried me through those times.

I also had to overcome the view of terrible punishment when I blew it or messed up, as had been the pattern of my childhood. God wasn't going to strike me down and beat me when I sinned or struggled. Instead He was going to teach me that because He loved me He forgave me, and He would teach me how to grow in Him. Forgiveness was never a part of our home growing up. It just wasn't there. And it took time to grasp the depth and breadth of His love and forgiveness...no matter what.

I can understand too that you have felt condemnation. I also know that when I have felt others were dismissing me--it was actually my feelings not necessarily theirs. It helped me justify my feelings of worthlessness or "yeah, that's what I am used to.' I caught myself actually doing things to mess up in a job or whatever, just so the pattern of abuse-verbal or spiritual--would continue---it was what I knew, and there were always so many quite willing to fulfill that pattern with me. Yes there are always those types of people, but it doesn't matter what they do. What matters is what happens between me and Christ. I gravitated to people that would treat me like that, treat me like what I grew up with. But God changed that. Thankfully.

Now I love Him because He first loved me, and because of Christ. And I love Him because He has given me the peace, joy, and hope in Him. And I know it's not because of me, but because of Him. And when I serve Him, it's because of Him living through me.

I love the verses in Romans, because to me they say how great His love is for us.

Romans 8:15-18 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17. And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. 18. For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

Romans 8:21-39 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

24. For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? 25. But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it. 26. Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27. And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

28. And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 29. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

31. What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? 32. He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

33. Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. 34. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

35. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36. As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. 37. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

38. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39. Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

God is so faithful to complete what He starts in us.

[heb13-13]

(07-29-2009 12:37 PM)Vic Wrote:  Now I love Him because He first loved me, and because of Christ. And I love Him because He has given me the peace, joy, and hope in Him. And I know it's not because of me, but because of Him. And when I serve Him, it's because of Him living through me.

I love the verses in Romans, because to me they say how great His love is for us.[/b] [/color]

Romans 8:15-18 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Vic,

I was just thinking about that verse in 1 John, myself. We love because He first loved us.

This Christian walk that we are on has been called the "Love Walk" by many people and indeed it is. And the fuel for our walk is the love of God.

We do not have true faith if our faith is not fueled by His Love.
Gal 5:6, crystallizes this very well. Faith worketh by love. We cannot live in relationship with God through any kind of LAW or LEGALISM and flourish in our relationship with Him or others. Conversely, it is not His nature to live in relationship with us through LAW or LEGALISM.

God worketh by Love and He desires that we worketh by love.

Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

If Faith is NOT WORKING by LOVE, then we are on the LAW WALK, and deceiving ourselves that we are walking in right relationship with God. God will not relate to us based on the LAW. He will only relate to us based on Love and that LOVE is spelled JESUS and He fulfilled the LAW.

Additionally, when you are filled with the Spirit of God, the LOVE OF GOD is SHED ABROAD in YOUR HEART. You cannot stop this!

Rom 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

Oh, there will be areas still where you need deliverance, and the Holy Spirit will shine His light in His time, and He will deliver by His Word, but the Spirit of God brings life and peace in the meantime as we exercise the childlike trust and dependence on Him (which He enables us to do).

2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

His perfect love that He shed abroad in us when He indwelt us with His Holy Spirit casts out all fear. His love is PERFECT LOVE.

1Jn 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
1Jn 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Condemnation, Fear, Insecurity, Rejection all come from the Enemy.

We need discernment to know if we are listening to the Spirit of God or not. The Word brings discernment, but if we do not have the Word, then we end up relying on something else. "Familiar" spirits masquerade as our "friends" but they never can give that life and peace that only the Holy Spirit can give.

A lot of "voices" that Christians in Charismatic and other circles hear today, is not of God. They don't lead to Christ. These demonic, familiar spirits are subtle and are always leading away from the Prince of Peace not to Him.

The Holy Spirit always leads us to Jesus (beside still waters).

We don't have any confidence in ourselves.

Php 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

Our confidence is in His Love and His Word and if we believe His Word to us, then we know that He will not lie to us and that He loves us.

Heb 10:35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.

All the promises of God are yea and amen.

2Co 1:18 But as God is true, our word toward you was not yea and nay.
2Co 1:19 For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, even by me and Silvanus and Timotheus, was not yea and nay, but in him was yea.
2Co 1:20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

Psa 107:19 Then they cry unto the LORD in their trouble, and he saveth them out of their distresses.
Psa 107:20 He sent his word, and healed them, and delivered them from their destructions.

Psa 119:111 Thy testimonies have I taken as an heritage for ever: for they are the rejoicing of my heart.

[heb13-13]

Tithing - Part III

Recapping the two instances where tithing is referred to BEFORE the LAW:

1. When Abraham gave a tenth to Melchizedek, king of Salem and "a priest of God Most High" (Genesis 14:17-20)

2. When Jacob promised to give a tenth to God when he returned in safety to his father's house.

There are two observations that are never mentioned in of the sermons that you hear, today. They are:

Both of these instances of "tithing" were ONE TIME EVENTS. There is no indication at all that these men practiced "tithing" on any consistent basis, whatsoever.

There are no commands from God for these men to give a tenth of what they had. There were commands from God to practice circumcision and to build altars, but no command was ever given about tithing until the institution of the Law.

Therefore you cannot make a logical or scriptural argument that Tithing was practiced before the Law, was a part of the Law and therefore should be practiced after the Law.

Malachi 3:8-12 DOES NOT TEACH TITHING AS IT IS TAUGHT TODAY!!

This scripture in Malachi has to be the scripture that is most often used for the topic of tithing. It also happens to be the most misunderstood and misinterpreted passed in the Bible.

Words have meaning, but today a different meaning has been given to words. Two people can use the same words, but are not conveying the same meaning. But not everyone uses sound principles of biblical interpretation.

Mal 3:8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.
Mal 3:9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.
Mal 3:10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.
Mal 3:11 And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the LORD of hosts.
Mal 3:12 And all nations shall call you blessed: for ye shall be a delightsome land, saith the LORD of hosts.

To see Malachi 3:8-12 in its context, we must look at chapter 4, verse 4.

Mal 4:4 - Remember ye the law of Moses my servant...with the statutes and judgments.

All through Malachi's message to Israel, he was imploring them to return to a pure practice of the Law. One part of his message was for the people to fulfill the laws of tithes and offerings.

The first thing we need to observe is this: The practice of paying tithes was an important part of the Law of Moses.

Do you know and understand this?? WE ARE NO LONGER UNDER THE LAW OF MOSES!

One of the major doctrines of the New Testament is that we are no longer under the LAW.

Paul ran into many that were trying to put new Christians under the Law of Moses, but Paul and other writers of the NT made it very clear that the Law has no jurisdiction over Believers in Jesus Christ -- WHO was the fulfillment of the Law.

Tithes and Offerings were such a big part of the Law that we would have to have some very clear teachings in the NT that these were not included in arguments against the Law. And, in fact, no such teachings were given and cannot be found in the NT. There are only 3 verses that mention tithes in the NT (not very many for such a MAJOR topic). And not one of them is advocating a system of tithes that should be practiced by New Testament Believers.

What Did Malachi Mean When He said, "Tithes and Offerings"?

Here is what modern day Preachers say it means. You probably have heard many other ones. They get quite creative in their "exposition" of the Word.

They say that a tithe is ten percent of your income which you must pay to the local church. And, only after you have paid your tithe are you in a position to give. That, they say, is what an offering is.

They never mention to you that there are 3 tithes in Malachi and what they were referring to. That is why the word is plural (tithes). There were 3 different purposes and 3 different ways that they were carried out. The word "offerings" is also in the plural and refers to 7 types of offerings, each having a specific purpose and a specific ritual that must be carried out.

Three Different Tithes:
1. To the Levites for Their Maintenance. Numbers 18:21,24
2. For the Lord's Feasts and Sacrifices. Deuteronomy 14:22-26
3. Every Third Year a Tithe for the Poor. Deuteronomy 14:28,29

Some people debate whether there were 2 or 3 tithes, but I see these three.

What did Malachi have in mind when he said "offerings"? Did he have someone's personal income above and beyond 10% in mind?

Seven Different Offerings: (Using Zondervan Bible Dictionary)

You can skip all the explanations, although I found them interesting.

1. Sin Offering - First mentioned at the consecration of Aaron, Exodus 29:10 and was a special expiatory sacrifice. A bullock was killed before the bronze altar and on its horns part of the sacrificial blood was smeared. The remainder was dashed against the base of the altar and the fat burned ceremonially. The flesh and skin were taken outside the tabernacle and burned separately. The Law of Sin Offering: (Lev. 4:1-35; 6:24-30, etc) provided for acts of unconscious transgression, mistakes or other inadvertences. No atonement could be made for deliberate rebellion against the covenant and its provisions (Num 15:30). the worshiper normally laid his hand on the head of the sin offering, symbolically designating it as his substitute in the sacrificial ritual. Poor people were permitted to offer two turtle-doves or a small amount of fine flour. The flesh that remained after portions had been burned belonged to the priest and was eaten in the sanctuary precincts. (Lev 5:13). A special sin offering for the Nation took place annually on the Day of Atonement. A bullock and goat were sacrificed and their blood ceremonially smeared on the mercy-seat. Another goat was driven into the wilderness after symbolic transfer of communal sin (Lev 16:1-28).


2. Trespass Offering - (Lev 5:14-6:7), or guilt offering, signified expiation and restitution and availed for inadvertent offenses, false swearing and improper dealings with a neighbor. By itself the offering made atonement towards God, but an additional one-fifth was required as a fine to compensate a neighbor adequately. The sacrificial ritual involved the slaughter of a ram, and was similar to that of the sin offering, although the imposition of hands and the sprinkling of blood in the holy places were not mentioned. Special offerings were required for the cleansing of a leper (Lev 14:12-20) and a defiled Nazirite (Num 6:12). All guilt offerings belonged to the priests and were most sacred in character.

3. Peace Offering - Symbolized right spiritual relations with God, and was among the earliest of the sacrificial offerings. The worshiper, if an ordinary Israelite, coud bring a bullock, a lamb or a goat, male or female and the ritual followed that of the sin-offering (Lev 3:1-17). If the worshiper was a priest the fatty portions of the animal were removed and burned on the altar of God, while the blood was sprinkled at the base of the sacrificial altar. The ritual for a goat followed that laid down for a bullock.

4. Meal Offering - Or meat offering (KJV), was instituted when Aaron and his sons were consecrated (Exod 29:41). It was forbidden to be offered on the altar of incense (Exod 30:9), but was used when the tabernacle was completed (Exod 40:29), and invariably accompanied the morning and evening burnt offerings. The ordinary Israelite was required to bring a mixture of fine flour, oil and frankincense prepared in a variety of ways (Lev 2:1-16), but without the addition of leaven or honey. All cereal offerings were to be seasoned with salt. The ritual for a priestly offerer required him to remove a token handful and burn it together with oil and frankincense as a memorial on the altar. What was left was most holy, and became priestly property.

5. Drink Offering - Or libations were common in the patriarchal period (Gen 28:18; 35:14) and accompanied many of the sacrifices (Exod 29:40). they could not be poured upon the golden altar of incense (Exod 30:9) and were required as an accompaniment of all freewill and votive offerings (Num 28:9) and other established feasts (Num 28:14-31; 29:6-39). The reference in Deut 32:38 indicates that dring offerings were common features of heathen cultic rituals. Oil and wine, used separately or as a mixture, constituted the normal libation.

6. Wave Offering - One part of the ritual associated with the Peace offering

7. Heave Offering - offering involved the wave and heave offerings. Both were apparently inititiated at the consecration of the Aaronic priesthood (Exod 29:24-28).

Well, if you were able to get through this then you will have seen that most Christians know very little about the Law with its ceremonial requirement. Because if they did, they would reject the New Testament Law of Tithes and Offerings.

Malachi's hearers understood what he was talking about. They knew he was referring to a complex SYSTEM of tithes and offerings. Today, we have no idea what this all means, we have just been conditioned to PAY or ELSE we will not have God's blessing upon our lives.

It is intellectually dishonest to equate or maybe I should say, REDUCE Malachi's words to simply mean "Ten Percent of your income is the tithe and anything above is the offering".

There is no scriptural basis to change the meaning of those words and no justification for putting NT Christians under the burden of the LAW by telling them that they are REQUIRED to PAY. Of course, this is all couched in sermons on "GIVING".

FACTS:
1. Deut 14:24-25 shows that TITHES have nothing to do with MONEY.
2. The OFFERINGS of Malachi are the sacrifices which the NT declares have ended.

[Mark]

I hate to use old phrases that everyone has heard time and again but;

I wish I had known then what I know now!


Seriously though, these are exactly the points I questioned with my pastor at the time. I could not find the use of money in any of the scriptures referring to tithing. He told me that it was because now we don't have the same system as they did for income and that now our paychecks are our firstfuits. I couldn't believe that God was interested in my paychecks and considered them my firstfruits! I was very angry with Him. I thought He was a money-hungry God. It really hurt to think that finances were His first concern and that my salvation hung on my tithing (my pastor actually told me that if I didn't pay tithes, I was robbing God and that is the equivalent of being a thief and that thieves do not get into heaven). It really hurt my relationship with God.
But now, thanks to God's grace and mercy (I love those twins!) He has lead me to understand His Word so much more deeply (thanks largely to this website and the knowldegable and unbiased people who post here!)
Do I know everything I need to know? Certainly not! But my journey is getting a lot better being free from some of the teachings that bound me. This topic was a big one for me. So, it is onward with a lighter heart and a deeper love of God and His Word. Keep up the great work everyone. This website is truly a blessing and I really see God's hand at work here.

[Vic]

(08-01-2009 08:59 AM)Mark Wrote:  I hate to use old phrases that everyone has heard time and again but;

I wish I had known then what I know now!


Seriously though, these are exactly the points I questioned with my pastor at the time. I could not find the use of money in any of the scriptures referring to tithing. He told me that it was because now we don't have the same system as they did for income and that now our paychecks are our firstfuits. I couldn't believe that God was interested in my paychecks and considered them my firstfruits! I was very angry with Him. I thought He was a money-hungry God. It really hurt to think that finances were His first concern and that my salvation hung on my tithing (my pastor actually told me that if I didn't pay tithes, I was robbing God and that is the equivalent of being a thief and that thieves do not get into heaven). It really hurt my relationship with God.
But now, thanks to God's grace and mercy (I love those twins!) He has lead me to understand His Word so much more deeply (thanks largely to this website and the knowldegable and unbiased people who post here!)
Do I know everything I need to know? Certainly not! But my journey is getting a lot better being free from some of the teachings that bound me. This topic was a big one for me. So, it is onward with a lighter heart and a deeper love of God and His Word. Keep up the great work everyone. This website is truly a blessing and I really see God's hand at work here.

Thank you Mark, for the kind encouragement to the other posters, admins and myself.

I would be remiss if I didn't tell you that we all have to take a look at what we have been taught and what we have believed and have had to test it and evaluate it all to the Scriptures. It's what we are supposed to do. And I can state that there are so many things yet to learn and understand. We never fully 'get there'. But we can mature in the faith and that's wonderful.

And at times, I am sure all will attest of being deceived or believing something that just wasn't Scriptural. But it is part of running the race. I used to say I didn't even know where the field was where we were supposed to run.

So glad you are growing in grace and knowledge of Christ and His Word. It encourages us all I am sure.