Search
Member List
Help
|
Tithing
|
|
08-13-2009, 05:28 PM
Post: #161
|
|||
|
|||
RE: Tithing
(08-13-2009 01:42 PM)heb13-13 Wrote: Don't you think that if the Law of Tithing under the Dispensation of Grace (now that's an oxymoron if I ever heard one), would be mentioned at least one time, one little time in the New Testament??? The fact is, that TITHING IS NEVER TAUGHT IN THE NEW TESTAMENT. I am curious where the "Dispensation of Grace" is found in the NT. How would you define it as different than Dispensationalism? |
|||
|
|
08-13-2009, 05:57 PM
(This post was last modified: 08-13-2009 06:07 PM by heb13-13.)
Post: #162
|
|||
|
|||
RE: Tithing
(08-13-2009 03:26 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote:(08-13-2009 02:01 PM)heb13-13 Wrote:(08-13-2009 01:56 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote:(08-13-2009 01:42 PM)heb13-13 Wrote: The Holy Spirit has a relationship with ALL the members of the Body of Christ and is giving people Words of encouragement, knowledge, exhortation, admonishments, dreams, visions, etc. How can one man be God's repository for this? (08-13-2009 03:26 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote:(08-13-2009 02:01 PM)heb13-13 Wrote:(08-13-2009 01:56 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote:(08-13-2009 01:42 PM)heb13-13 Wrote: The Holy Spirit has a relationship with ALL the members of the Body of Christ and is giving people Words of encouragement, knowledge, exhortation, admonishments, dreams, visions, etc. How can one man be God's repository for this? Joseph and Daniel had dreams but they did not refer to doctrine. They were for personal direction, things to come or for interpretations of other's dreams. Mary's husband Joseph had dreams for personal direction that protected Mary, Jesus and him. For instance if God is warning a believer in China in a dream not to go some place that they usually would go to because now it is not safe and later they found out that what was given to them in the dream was true then I would say that the dream was from God. So what would be the point, because we have God's Word? Well, God's Word would not tell that Believer to skip that rendevous that they would normally make, but God's Spirit working in a dream, can very well warn that person. I don't see what is so foreign and strange about this since it is in God's Word numerous times as a method that He uses to direct people. God did this in the OT and NT and His Word was still around. If you are coming from a background where listening to familiar spirits was the norm, I can understand. And today, someone will have a dream and then tell an entire congregation that this is what God wants us all to do. Ala Jim Jones. I will give you a personal testimony. When I was 6 months old in the Lord, on a ship overseas, I received orders for my next duty station. I received these on a Friday. I was on Watch (Duty) the entire weekend and these orders had a caveat to them. First, the orders were for me to report to Point Loma, San Diego but in order to accept these orders, I would have to agree to extend in the Navy for 9 more months. On top of this, 4 of my very close Christian brothers on the ship were given the same exact orders. They were telling me that this was of God and that it was a no brainer and we could all get an apartment together, etc, etc. Believe me, this sounded really good and all the Christians I knew in the world were the Christian guys on this ship. But the Holy Spirit, impressed (still small voice) on me that I should not make a decision this very moment and that I should fast and pray over the weekend. Well, as I said, I was on watch all weekend and had to stay on board ship anyway. So, what else was I going to do? Usually, when I would go to bed, I would read the Word. I fell asleep on Friday and had my first dream as a Christian that I would consider from the Lord. In my dream, this person, I could not see them, as there was a fog covering them, and they were very excited about the book of Habakkuk. They were so excited about it that I got excited and I woke up and started reading Habakkuk. Only one verse jumped out at me. Habukkuk 2:1 I will stand upon my watch, and set me upon the tower, and will watch to see what he will say unto me, and what I shall answer when I am reproved. Now, I was strongly entertaining ideas of going to San Diego and my friends were trying to convince me. It did "seem" like the Lord, it was so "logical". They were surprised that I did not immediately accept the orders and turn my acceptance back into the Personnel Office. I pondered this dream and thought, "could this be the Lord telling me that I am doing the right thing to seek Him for an answer this weekend? I think He is telling me to continue to wait on Him". I took that dream the first night as encouragement from the Lord to continue to seek Him over the weekend. Was I looking for more dreams? No. I had never run into anyone that "pushed dreams". I had been a Christian for 6 months, all overseas, yet, I had read of many in the Bible having dreams so this did not frighten me. Saturday night, to my astonishment, I had another dream. In this dream, I was in San Diego, with my old, non-christian, best friend at a party with a lot of older teenagers, 18-19 and he was trying to get me to party with him. Dave and I had been best friends on this ship the 14 months before I became a Christian and for the 6 months I was a Christian, the Lord had kept me above reproach living in the same quarters with 25 men that I knew, before I got saved. I was closely watched everyday and in the first 6 months the Lord graciously allowed me to share in the conversions of 3 other sailors. Point being, I was leading a righteous life in Jesus before these men everyday by the power of the Holy Spirit and now I am having a dream where I am with Dave at a party!! I woke up immediately and was extremely upset and starting praying to the Lord and telling Him that I would never do that. I put that dream on a "shelf" in my mind and pondered it during the day. I was still not seeking dreams. These dreams came to me, I did not seek them. The next night (Sunday) I fell asleep reading the Word once again and had another dream and in this dream I was in San Diego and I met a beautiful Christian woman at a church. Fast forward, we ended up getting married but right after the marriage, she turned into an evil person. It was a horrible dream and I am leaving out some detail, but in order to just convey the essence I am keeping things short. I woke up and knew in my heart that I would be rejecting the orders that the Pentagon sent me and would be sending them back. My Christian brothers thought I was crazy but I had a firm conviction that the Lord was directing me to reject these orders. About a month later, I received new orders and they were to another ship. At once I had joy and expectation that this was directly from the Lord and this is where He wanted me. I began praying for the guys on this ship, immediately. Knowing nothing about the ship, I spent the last 3 months on my present ship interceding for the guys on my new ship. I was very excited. Most sailors want off ships and WANT shore duty, but I was excited because I believed I was in the center of God's will. I did not confer with any man before I rejected those orders to San Diego. Interestingly, my old friend Dave, told me a week later (after my dreams) that he had just received orders to San Diego. That was my first confirmation, because a week earlier, I saw him in my dream in San Diego. I guess I could have told him that he was going to get orders for San Diego. But I did not. These dreams were just for me. I did, however share with my christian brothers about them. They were less critical of me after that, but still thought I was "crazy" to TURN DOWN SAN DIEGO. Before I got off my present ship, I was given orders to go to San Diego for 3 weeks of schooling. While at the school, I visited my sister who was in the Navy, stationed at Balboa Hospital, and I led her and another nurse to the Lord. I also went to Calvary Chapel every chance I got and one night at a prayer meeting, an older lady (remember, I was 21) met me after the prayer meeting and found out I was a Sailor and "felt sorry" for me I guess (thinking I never get home cooked meals) and wanted to invite me home to meet her husband and have dinner. Little did I know that she had a daughter and wanted me to meet her, also. Her daughter was beautiful and a "christian" and for the remaining time I was in San Diego, we got to know each other either at her house or at church. I did not have much time left. Maybe 10 days. I left San Diego, after my advanced schooling was completed and joined my new ship in Alameda, CA. I wrote my girlfriend and called and she wrote me. So we stayed in touch. Once I joined my new ship, I found out that it had the worst drug problems in the Navy and had no chaplain. All ships have chaplains but this one did not. This ship was much different than the one I came off of. The one I came off of had 5,500 men and this one had 450. Over the first 3 months I just starting sowing the Word through conversations and tracts. I could not find a single Believer on board. There are may wonderful stories I could tell, but the long and short of it is that by the time I got off the ship, I was meeting with 7 new believers. When I was overseas, an elderly Christian man that ran the Yokohama Christian Servicemen's home use to tell me, "Rick, wherever you go, if you can't find fellowship, make it". So, that is what I did on my new ship. I could not find any fellowship, so I did what I did on my old ship, started telling people about Jesus. God was faithful and did some great things on both ships. Back to that Christian girl that I met in San Diego. My ship went down there a couple of times and we saw each other and then I think I went down there on leave once and stayed with her parents. Things got quite serious and before I knew it we were engaged. But, I could feel the Holy Spirit was very grieved and wanting me to call it off. I did not know why. We were not doing anything wrong. We were spending time together either at her house or church, but I felt God was not please and I was ignoring Him turning a deaf ear to His "voice". Finally, at Christmas in 1979, I could not take the heaviness anymore and I called it off. She was in tears and I felt like a jerk. My friends in San Diego, also got to know her because when I was down in San Diego, we would all hang out together and go to church. They told me later that when her Mom brought me home the first night, she left a boyfriend for me and when I called it off, she went back to him and they were married 2 months later. I think one of my friends girl friends from church knew her and told them this. Me?? I just felt better because I was not grieving the Holy Spirit anymore. I pondered those dreams I had months ago and remembered that person that I supposedly married. There were some danger signs in the relationship that my emotions were causing me to ignore. I did not know that she left someone for me until later, but I did know and kept ignoring this she was extremely smothering and maybe the Holy Spirit used that also to "wake me up". I reported to my new ship in August 1979 and called off this relationship with this women, December 1979. I spent the next 15 months dedicated to reaching out to the men on my new ship. Two weeks before I was about to leave the Navy, I was awakened one night by an officer. I was on the top bunk (of 3 bunks) and a bit groggy when I woke up. I fuzzily saw the insignia on his shoulders and knew he was an officer waking me up and then I saw some gold crosses on his lapels and knew he was a chaplain. He ask me if I was so and so and I said "Yes, sir". He said that he was told to come see me if he was looking for Christians. I immediately asked him, respectfully, if he was born-again and he enthusiastically said he was. I had to ask him that because when I was not a Christian and hanging out in bars in Pusan, Korea, I saw the Chaplain of my ship in that same bar one night with a geisha girls sitting on his knee. So, I knew being a chaplain did not guarantee he was a truly born-again believer in Jesus. I was very excited then because I had been concerned about the young Believers on board the ship and now God was showing me that He had not forgotten about them. You see, I was an enlisted man on this ship. I had no rank at all to speak of. Yet, God gave me great favor. I was the Captain's personal driver when our ship was in port, but the XO (Executive Officer) hated me. He hated Christ and that is why he hated me. I was always meeting in empty offices with these other guys and more than once the XO would walk in on us and tell us to disperse. Even though we were doing nothing wrong. Now, there was an officer who was a chaplain coming on board who was "authorized" to conduct meetings and the best thing is that he knew the Lord. It was a provision from God for these new Christians, just like I was a provision from the Lord 18 months earlier. Sometimes things were tough on board that new ship. I was made fun of and verbally persecuted many times, but I had the conviction in my heart that this is where God wanted me. I cannot tell you the joy I and my new brothers used to share in the Lord, and the joy there is at seeing someone translated from darkness into light. Yes, this is where I was meant to be, not in San Diego or Point Loma. But without God's divine direction, I may very well have gone to Point Loma, San Diego, with my Christian brothers who I was very, very close to. This is a example of a personal testimony of what I believe were Divinely inspired dreams and they were proven out in my life. I don't think I have had any dreams since then that I could say were definitely from God. Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: I still believe we are in the last days. Acts 2:17 is not instruction to "expect it", but rather instruction that IT WILL HAPPEN. It is a promise! The entire Bible in itself with all the stories about dreams and visions from God is instruction by example that God does speak in this way. You are right there is no teaching that it is necessary for our walk. But when Joseph, Daniel, and others had dreams from God, they did not need somone telling them that it was from God. I have had some dreams that I know were from the pit of hell. If demons can speak to us this way, I am sure that God has still retained His ability to do so. Plus, I have heard way too many testimonys divine dreams. And of course I have heard many more bad ones (fleshly) than good ones. Anyway, that's my story and I'm sticking to it. 
Jer 12:5 If thou hast run with the footmen, and they have wearied thee, then how canst thou contend with horses? and if in the land of peace, wherein thou trustedst, they wearied thee, then how wilt thou do in the swelling of Jordan?
|
|||
|
|
|
08-13-2009, 08:57 PM
(This post was last modified: 08-13-2009 10:04 PM by sheep wrecked.)
Post: #163
|
|||
|
|||
RE: Tithing
(08-13-2009 05:57 PM)heb13-13 Wrote: Joseph and Daniel had dreams but they did not refer to doctrine. They were for personal direction, things to come or for interpretations of other's dreams. However, these dreams were prophetic and we have knowledge of them by the inspiration of God's Word. Once Rev was written, it becomes real dicey. We have no promise or instruction that dreams and visions will guide us in this life. We have the Holy Spirit who leads us. I do not believe that one needs dreams or visions today to know the will of God. Quote:Mary's husband Joseph had dreams for personal direction that protected Mary, Jesus and him. The purpose of dreams and visions pointed to Christ’s coming in the OT, and to further the Gospel in the NT, which was the foundation of the Gospel. Can we add to that foundation?  Quote:For instance if God is warning a believer in China in a dream not to go some place that they usually would go to because now it is not safe and later they found out that what was given to them in the dream was true then I would say that the dream was from God. So what would be the point, because we have God's Word? Well, God's Word would not tell that Believer to skip that rendevous that they would normally make, but God's Spirit working in a dream, can very well warn that person. I don’t see how that is valid. God’s protection is above a person’s ability to be in an unsafe place or not. Even Paul who was warned he would be in danger by a vision from a prophet went anyway. Do you think that if a believer went somewhere they normally go that God could not protect them, if that was His will? What I think you are saying is that if the person ignored the dream and went anyway that God could do nothing to protect them because they chose to ignore Him. That is kind of weird. Like the person’s safety was dependent on their own actions. And of course, I just have to say this – if nothing happened where they would normally go, then would they assume the dream was not of God? Quote:I don't see what is so foreign and strange about this since it is in God's Word numerous times as a method that He uses to direct people. God did this in the OT and NT and His Word was still around. If you are coming from a background where listening to familiar spirits was the norm, I can understand. And today, someone will have a dream and then tell an entire congregation that this is what God wants us all to do. Ala Jim Jones. I don’t think it’s foreign or strange, but I do believe that the visions and dreams of the Bible cannot be compared to what is experienced today. The problem is this: you have no way to discern if it is a familiar or seductive spirit or of God. Whether or not it is fulfilled means nothing. Psychics have a great accuracy record as well. satan can manipulate things – he has the “gift” of signs and wonders. Jim Jones did not have dreams and visions. He thought he was God. Quote:Usually, when I would go to bed, I would read the Word. I fell asleep on Friday and had my first dream as a Christian that I would consider from the Lord. In my dream, this person, I could not see them, as there was a fog covering them, and they were very excited about the book of Habakkuk. They were so excited about it that I got excited and I woke up and started reading Habakkuk. Only one verse jumped out at me. Habukkuk 2:1 I understand that this was meaningful to you and you felt that God was speaking to you through His Word. But if you only knew how many charismatics, myself included, “received” this same “word” from Habukkak. However; in the NT we are told this: Heb 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, Heb 13:21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen. Do you really think that if you had gone to San Diego that God could not have led you according to His will? Quote:I was leading a righteous life in Jesus before these men everyday by the power of the Holy Spirit and now I am having a dream where I am with Dave at a party!! Dreams can come by seducing spirits unsought. It’s the spirit, not that one desires them or not. I never sought dreams and visions either. I always subjected myself to God’s will. So I wonder, how is it since I got out of charis that these dreams and visions stopped. I am subjected to God more than ever. We make mistakes, screw up royally, yet God gets us to where He needs us by moving us in His direction unknowingly. Do you not see the “advantage” and the blessing in that? Quote:The next night (Sunday) I fell asleep reading the Word once again and had another dream and in this dream I was in San Diego and I met a beautiful Christian woman at a church. Fast forward, we ended up getting married but right after the marriage, she turned into an evil person. It was a horrible dream and I am leaving out some detail, but in order to just convey the essence I am keeping things short. I do not see how the dream you had pointed to the pentagon? Are you saying you were married to the military or that it is an evil woman - because at first you inferred it was the SD girlfriend? However; you are in the military, under their orders. This does not make sense to me at all. I think that rejecting the orders because of a dream is speculative at best. Quote:About a month later, I received new orders and they were to another ship. At once I had joy and expectation that this was directly from the Lord and this is where He wanted me. I began praying for the guys on this ship, immediately. Knowing nothing about the ship, I spent the last 3 months on my present ship interceding for the guys on my new ship. I was very excited. Most sailors want off ships and WANT shore duty, but I was excited because I believed I was in the center of God's will. I did not confer with any man before I rejected those orders to San Diego. Please forgive me, but you sound so charismatic. I am almost positive that you were under that venue when you became a Christian. I have seen other indications, now I am convinced of it [interceding, center of God's will - did not confer with man - which is very "Paulish". Do you think that you are "up there" with him?]  Quote:Before I got off my present ship, I was given orders to go to San Diego for 3 weeks of schooling. While at the school, I visited my sister who was in the Navy, stationed at Balboa Hospital, and I led her and another nurse to the Lord. I also went to Calvary Chapel every chance I got and one night at a prayer meeting, an older lady (remember, I was 21) met me after the prayer meeting and found out I was a Sailor and "felt sorry" for me I guess (thinking I never get home cooked meals) and wanted to invite me home to meet her husband and have dinner. Little did I know that she had a daughter and wanted me to meet her, also. Her daughter was beautiful and a "christian" and for the remaining time I was in San Diego, we got to know each other either at her house or at church. I did not have much time left. Maybe 10 days. I left San Diego, after my advanced schooling was completed and joined my new ship in Alameda, CA. I wrote my girlfriend and called and she wrote me. So we stayed in touch. I thought you were not supposed to go to San Diego? So how could you be in God’s will? If it was so important for you not to go there, yet you went and then almost ended up with a woman who turned out to be less than savory? I am not understanding this. Was this in your dream? You also mentioned that you attended Calvary Chapel – this is a charismatic church founded on the very root of the Denial of Christ. Quote:Me?? I just felt better because I was not grieving the Holy Spirit anymore. This is the context of grieving the Holy Spirit: Eph 4:29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers. Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. Eph 4:31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: Eph 4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you. Grieving the Holy Spirit is what is in the heart, not because you have picked the wrong girlfried. The concept you have put forth is charismatic. Quote:You see, I was an enlisted man on this ship. I had no rank at all to speak of. Yet, God gave me great favor. I was the Captain's personal driver when our ship was in port, but the XO (Executive Officer) hated me. He hated Christ and that is why he hated me. I was always meeting in empty offices with these other guys and more than once the XO would walk in on us and tell us to disperse. Even though we were doing nothing wrong. Persecution is to be expected. But again, you have expressed a charismatic concept – “the favor of God” for one who does the will of God. Quote:But without God's divine direction, I may very well have gone to Point Loma, San Diego, with my Christian brothers who I was very, very close to. Please don’t be upset with me, but after reading your testimony, I don’t see that this was God’s divine direction? What did I miss that He would not have worked in your life as effectively in San Diego? How do you know what He would have done? It sounds to me like you are second guessing God and dependent on the dream for direction – which did not steer you clear of “trouble” but sent you into the arms of a woman that could have destroyed you. Quote:Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: Peter said that this was fulfilled on the day of Pentecost and in the disciples on whom that outpouring the Spirit rested – that they would be empowered to proclaim the Gospel to the world. The visions and dreams of Joel 2 were not for personal direction. If you look back at the passage – God was speaking to Israel to be fulfilled IN ISRAEL. Also, according to the NT, the writers believed they were in the last days. Joe 2:27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed. Joe 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: Joe 2:29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. Quote:I still believe we are in the last days. Acts 2:17 is not instruction to "expect it", but rather instruction that IT WILL HAPPEN. It is a promise! The entire Bible in itself with all the stories about dreams and visions from God is instruction by example that God does speak in this way. The dreams and visions were given to the Apostles and those that they laid hands on. Once again, you are in line with charis teaching and doctrine ["by example that God does speak in this way"]. Do you believe in tongues, btw? You have me really curious now. Quote:You are right there is no teaching that it is necessary for our walk. But when Joseph, Daniel, and others had dreams from God, they did not need somone telling them that it was from God. That is because they were under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit per His written Word, so God told us that they knew it was so. His Word was completed with Rev 22:21. Quote:I have had some dreams that I know were from the pit of hell. If demons can speak to us this way, I am sure that God has still retained His ability to do so. Plus, I have heard way too many testimonys divine dreams. And of course I have heard many more bad ones (fleshly) than good ones. Of course demons can give dreams, even beautiful ones of heaven and make people think they went there; even directive dreams that sound like God; even dreams of the person they will marry. The deceiver has been given dreams and visions to deceive even the elect. As Paul said – satan is transformed into an angel of light. That means he will look, sound, and feel like God. The Bible says nothing about believers getting dreams and visions to know God’s will. Being led by the Spirit is simply being submissive to God and allowing Him to led us step by step. We are not to know the future, because then we do not walk by faith, we walk by sight. |
|||
|
|
|
08-13-2009, 10:32 PM
Post: #164
|
|||
|
|||
RE: Tithing
(08-13-2009 05:28 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote:(08-13-2009 01:42 PM)heb13-13 Wrote: Don't you think that if the Law of Tithing under the Dispensation of Grace (now that's an oxymoron if I ever heard one), would be mentioned at least one time, one little time in the New Testament??? The fact is, that TITHING IS NEVER TAUGHT IN THE NEW TESTAMENT. I think this verse says it best for me. Joh 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. No comparison at all to Dispensationalism and my term. Jer 12:5 If thou hast run with the footmen, and they have wearied thee, then how canst thou contend with horses? and if in the land of peace, wherein thou trustedst, they wearied thee, then how wilt thou do in the swelling of Jordan?
|
|||
|
|
|
08-14-2009, 12:26 AM
(This post was last modified: 08-15-2009 09:10 PM by sheep wrecked.)
Post: #165
|
|||
|
|||
RE: Tithing
(08-13-2009 08:57 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote:(08-13-2009 05:57 PM)heb13-13 Wrote: Joseph and Daniel had dreams but they did not refer to doctrine. They were for personal direction, things to come or for interpretations of other's dreams. I never had a dream about someone that I would marry. I still say Joel 2:28 was fulfilled and is is still being fulfilled. We have to agree to disagree, here. The Bible teaches much by example even though it may not say, "Thus saiith". I am quite surprised that you do not think that God can speak to us in other Biblical ways. Joseph could have said that the angel that appeared to him was from Satan and ignored what was said. He could have reasoned that Satan was trying to put a spirit of fear in him regarding Herod. Daniel could have said that the angel that was sent to him was from Satan, afterall he was several weeks late. Peter heard a voice when he was having his vision, it said, "Peter, rise, kill and eat". Peter could have said that God does not speak audibly anymore and ignore it. I can understand your hesitation with all these examples (and many more) in the Word, because of your past experiences as you say. Because I see God communicating in this way many times in the Bible, I cannot deny that He could still communicate this way today. Who am I to say that He cannot do this anymore? I don't see that in the Word. I don't seek voices and I don't seek dreams, in fact I distrust all of this gobbledy-gook that is happening today. If anything, I would be distrusting of things like this. But if they come, I trust the Holy Spirit would give me discernment and confirmation. I definitely do not trust my natural senses. With all that said, I have never heard God audibly but I know of a leading Hezbollah terrorist who came to Christ in a prison cell and in his testimony, which I have, he heard Jesus Christ speak to him. Whether I believe that or not, makes no difference in his life and whether anyone believes my dreams were from God or not makes no difference in my life. I have only had these 3 dreams. When I hear people explain their dreams and visions, I am free to believe or not believe them just as people are free to believe or not believe me. It is really no biggy since I don't live my life to please men. If I believed that dreams and visions absolutely do not exist anymore at all from GOD, then I could readily discount them every time I hear someone mention them. That would be nice and easy, but I just don't believe that. When God shows me differently, I will believe. I just don't see what you see in the Word concerning this. You and I agree on many things, but not on this one. God bless you, Rick P.S. I don't want anyone following me. You should follow Jesus and His Word as revealed to you. Always asking the Holy Spirit for more light regarding His Word. Jer 12:5 If thou hast run with the footmen, and they have wearied thee, then how canst thou contend with horses? and if in the land of peace, wherein thou trustedst, they wearied thee, then how wilt thou do in the swelling of Jordan?
|
|||
|
|
|
08-17-2009, 12:29 PM
(This post was last modified: 08-17-2009 02:57 PM by sheep wrecked.)
Post: #166
|
|||
|
|||
|
RE: Tithing
I found this website (someone left a comment on my blog) and it is very exhaustive on the subject of Tithing. This person names, names, too.
I don't know anything about him and have not read and scrutinized everything on his (Russell Kelly) website so be like a Berean as you read. I don't think I have ever found so much on one website, dedicated to Tithing. He has rebuttals of prominent tithe teachers, theologians and historians who agree and disagree, and a CBS News Transcript where Russell Kelly was interviewed by Charles Osgood. [mod note: we deleted the link. It seems that Mr Kelly is an Elvis impersonator for church functions  Perhaps this is his way to "circumvent" the "tithe" at $60 per hr  So much for "lowering your lifestyle" ... uhhh - it looks like he did  What a way to "merchandise the saints"  ps: * Mr Kelly is a dispensationalist * Mr Kelly promotes Frank Viola who affiliates with Gene Edwards of the House Church movement. Mr Viola is a self proclaimed Pentecostal/Charismatic] Jer 12:5 If thou hast run with the footmen, and they have wearied thee, then how canst thou contend with horses? and if in the land of peace, wherein thou trustedst, they wearied thee, then how wilt thou do in the swelling of Jordan?
|
|||
|
|
|
08-17-2009, 06:58 PM
Post: #167
|
|||
|
|||
RE: Tithing
(08-17-2009 12:29 PM)heb13-13 Wrote: I found this website (someone left a comment on my blog) and it is very exhaustive on the subject of Tithing. This person names, names, too. Yech!! Good catch, I knew if there was something there you would find it. Sorry, I did not have time to go through it too, well. I will probably delete his link from my blog, too. Jer 12:5 If thou hast run with the footmen, and they have wearied thee, then how canst thou contend with horses? and if in the land of peace, wherein thou trustedst, they wearied thee, then how wilt thou do in the swelling of Jordan?
|
|||
|
|
|
08-25-2009, 08:00 AM
Post: #168
|
|||
|
|||
|
RE: Tithing
Tithing - Part VI - Tithing is Not Mentioned in 1st Timothy, Chapter 3
Another key passage - which is representative of many others - when you would expect the practice of tithing to be mentioned is I Timothy 3:1-13. In this passage we are given a list of qualities and attributes that are used to measure and judge a person's qualifications to be among the spiritual leaders of the church. We do not see tithing mentioned. It is absent from this passage just as it is absent from every passage in the New Testament that discusses money, giving, supporting the local church, supporting missionary endeavors,giving to the poor, giving to parents, etc. This is just another reminder that the entire New Testament is silent about tithing. In contrast, if you ask most church leaders today what should be the qualifications of a pastor or deacon, or any other position of church and/or denominational leadership, almost every one of them would insist that the practice of tithing be on the list of qualifications. Let's take a look at I Tim 3:1-13 to see what it records as being qualities and attributes that a spiritual leader should possess: 1Ti 3:1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. 1Ti 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; 1Ti 3:3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; 1Ti 3:4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; 1Ti 3:5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) 1Ti 3:6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. 1Ti 3:7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil. 1Ti 3:8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre; 1Ti 3:9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience. 1Ti 3:10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless. 1Ti 3:11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things. 1Ti 3:12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. 1Ti 3:13 For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus. The only two statements made about money are "not greedy of filthy lucre" (verse 3 and 8). This was spoken of twice as if for emphasis. Unlike the sermons you hear today, this passage does not require that a church leader be one who practices tithing. Some might argue that nothing at all is said about "giving" and that the writer took for granted that those in leadership would be those who practiced tithing. And that argument might have some merit were it not for two considerations: 1. Not only is tithing not mentioned here, it is never mentioned in the entire NT. If we adopt the opinion that the entire NT is silent about tithing because the writers of the NT (under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit) assumed that everyone would somehow know that tithing is a practice that would be taken for granted -- we would then have to ask ourselves, "What other practices does God expect from Christians that were "assumed" and not mentioned anywhere in the New Testament? That would create a situation of uncertainty and confusion where we would have nothing more to go on than the personal opinions of men and their ability to persuade people to follow them. How are we to know that God expects us to practice something in the New Covenant that is never mentioned in that new covenant? The only basis would be the opinions of men. 2. It would be impossible for all the writers of the New Testament to assume that every person who was coming to faith in Christ would automatically know that they were expected to practice "tithes and offerings" for two reasons: 1. There were many more converts coming from among the gentile nations than from among the Jews. Many of those Gentile would have little or no understanding of the Hebrew practice of "tithes and offerings". And a large portion of the New Testament was written specifically to the gentile converts because the writers knew that they had very little background and understanding of the Old Testament Hebrew practices. And because a large portion of the New Testament was purposely directed to those who had little background of the Hebrew's faith and practices, it would have been a part of the new covenant -- would definitely have been taught and explained. 2. The writers of the NT knew that it would be impossible for Christians to practice "tithes and offerings" because the new covenant was setting aside the Levitical Priesthood, animal sacrifices, religious ceremonies performed at the altars, rituals of Temple worship, etc. -- all of which were integral parts of the practices of "tithes and offerings". It is impossible to practice Biblical tithing without the system of Temple worship led by the Levitical Priesthood. "Tithes and Offerings", by the very definition of the term cannot be practiced without altars, animal sacrifices and many rituals that took many pages of Old Testament scriptures to describe and explain. "Tithing" as it was understood and practiced by Jews under the old covenant was totally different from what "Tithes and Offerings" are taught to be today. If there were to be this new definition of "Tithing", it certainly would have been taught and explained. Places in the New Testament where you would expect to see the teaching of tithing, take on a greater significance by the absolute silence regarding this teaching (or lack of it). If the definition of tithing had changed, it would have required a great deal of explanation, but no explanation is ever given. We can come to no other conclusion than this: "Tithes and Offerings" was a part of the old covenant, just like circumcision. And "Tithes and Offerings", just like circumcision, has no place in the New Covenant. Jer 12:5 If thou hast run with the footmen, and they have wearied thee, then how canst thou contend with horses? and if in the land of peace, wherein thou trustedst, they wearied thee, then how wilt thou do in the swelling of Jordan?
|
|||
|
|
|
09-16-2009, 12:42 PM
(This post was last modified: 09-16-2009 12:45 PM by heb13-13.)
Post: #169
|
|||
|
|||
|
RE: Tithing
Tithing Series - Part VII - Pay or Give
When you do a serious study of what the New Testament teaches about money, supporting the local church, underwriting missionary efforts, supporting the poor, etc. -- and contrast your findings with the teaching of the Old Testament -- you can summarize your findings with two words: PAY and GIVE The Old Testament requirement of tithing is definitely a "paying" situation, not a "giving" one. Even the "Offerings" were required. They were not "offerings" in the sense of a spontaneous desire and decision to impart some of your assets to someone else. The OT Offerings were specific requirements of the people that had to be fulfilled according to very specific, detailed rituals carried out by the Levitical Priesthood in the context of Temple worship. Everyone agrees that you pay something that you owe. It is a responsibility and a requirement. It is not a gift. On the other hand, it is equally true that a gift is not a requirement. A gift is something that you give that you didn't have to give. It is not given because you must. It is not given out of necessity. It is not given under compulsion. Otherwise, it would not be a gift. It would be a payment. Let's look at II Corinthians 8 and 9: Chapter 8 2Cor 8:1 Moreover, brethren, we do you to wit of the grace of God bestowed on the churches of Macedonia; 2Cor 8:2 How that in a great trial of affliction the abundance of their joy and their deep poverty abounded unto the riches of their liberality. 2Cor 8:3 For to their power, I bear record, yea, and beyond their power they were willing of themselves; 2Cor 8:4 Praying us with much intreaty that we would receive the gift, and take upon us the fellowship of the ministering to the saints. 2Cor 8:5 And this they did, not as we hoped, but first gave their own selves to the Lord, and unto us by the will of God. 2Cor 8:6 Insomuch that we desired Titus, that as he had begun, so he would also finish in you the same grace also. 2Cor 8:7 Therefore, as ye abound in every thing, in faith, and utterance, and knowledge, and in all diligence, and in your love to us, see that ye abound in this grace also. 2Cor 8:8 I speak not by commandment, but by occasion of the forwardness of others, and to prove the sincerity of your love. 2Cor 8:9 For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich. ... 2Cor 8:19 And not that only, but who was also chosen of the churches to travel with us with this grace, which is administered by us to the glory of the same Lord, and declaration of your ready mind: Chapter 9 2Cor 9:6 But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully. 2Cor 9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver. 2Cor 9:8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work: 2Cor 9:9 (As it is written, He hath dispersed abroad; he hath given to the poor: his righteousness remaineth for ever. 2Cor 9:10 Now he that ministereth seed to the sower both minister bread for your food, and multiply your seed sown, and increase the fruits of your righteousness;) 2Cor 9:11 Being enriched in every thing to all bountifulness, which causeth through us thanksgiving to God. 2Cor 9:12 For the administration of this service not only supplieth the want of the saints, but is abundant also by many thanksgivings unto God; 2Cor 9:13 Whiles by the experiment of this ministration they glorify God for your professed subjection unto the gospel of Christ, and for your liberal distribution unto them, and unto all men; 2Co 9:14 And by their prayer for you, which long after you for the exceeding grace of God in you. 2Cor 9:15 Thanks be unto God for his unspeakable gift. These passages of scripture are a perfect illustration of the fact that the new covenant is a covenant of grace, not a covenant of law. The Apostle Paul, in writing this passage, reveals that giving is a work of God's grace in a person's heart. And it is clear that what God is wanting is for His people to give of their own accord. He does not want them to give in obedience to a command. That would be LAW! He wants His people to allow His grace to work in their hearts, and give freely. Paul, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, drives a nail in the coffin of tithing. It is buried forever along with circumcision and every other aspect of Old Testament Law. 2Cor 9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver. God no longer wants His children to pay under compulsion, but to give cheerfully. It is impossible for the requirement of paying the tithe to remain if God says that our giving is not under compulsion. If you owe it, you are under compulsion to pay it. The very act of paying tithes creates an act of "necessity" and 2 Cor 9:7, says "not grudgingly, or of necessity". You cannot have it both ways. You cannot say out of one side of your mouth that you are not to act out of necessity, or under compulsion -- and then out of the other side of your mouth say that God requires you to pay tithes. Paul does "urge" the church several times to be "liberal" (generous) in their giving. But generosity is a foreign concept to the law of tithing. A tithe is 10 percent, no more and no less. You cannot be generous and be under the law of tithes, (whether one of the three OT laws of tithing or all 3 of them). But, today's preachers say that is where "offerings" come in. But that is not right. Not in a Biblical sense, anyway. The offerings of the Bible in the OT consisted of detailed rituals that were just as much a requirement as was tithing. God wants us to forget the requirements of the Law. He wants us to live in response to the working of His grace in our hearts. "But shouldn't tithing be the starting place? Shouldn't it be the minimum?" That would be like saying, "Shouldn't circumcision be the starting place?" "Shouldn't circumcision be the minimum?" I think if this were true, the New Testament would have stated it, somewhere, just once. The requirement of tithing has kept God's people in slavery to the Law and has kept them from growing in God's grace. Also, the offering that Paul and his associates collected was a ministry of the churches. This was part of the ministry of the local churches. This was not some non-church organization. This was not some activity that was outside the ministry of the local churches. It was a vital part of the ministry of these churches. I point this out because there would be some who would say, "The reason Paul did not appeal to the use of tithes was because this was a special project that was outside the scope of the local church." But, as you can se, that argument does not hold water! The reason that Paul did not appeal to the use of tithes in this passage -- and in every other passage that he wrote -- is that tithing has no place in the life of a Christian. It is a part of the Old Covenant that has been replaced with something better, in the New Covenant. The New Testament teaches that we are to be led by the Holy Spirit in every area of our lives. That includes the area of giving. The Holy Spirit is "the Spirit of grace", (Heb 10:29). Tithing is a form of Legalism that must be opposed because it opens the door to other teachings of legalism in the Church. Jer 12:5 If thou hast run with the footmen, and they have wearied thee, then how canst thou contend with horses? and if in the land of peace, wherein thou trustedst, they wearied thee, then how wilt thou do in the swelling of Jordan?
|
|||
|
|
|
11-03-2011, 05:07 AM
(This post was last modified: 11-03-2011 10:49 AM by Vic.)
Post: #170
|
|||
|
|||
|
RE: Tithing
Can I give a suggestion about the book that I read that I recommend every one who want to know about tithings offerings almsgivings gracegivings! the book (Tithing:Low-Realm, Obsolete and Defunct) by the Author Matthew E. Narramore Tekoa Publishing ISBN 0-9745587-0-2 [Link deleted -Vic] Smile ! Ken
|
|||
|
|
|
« Next Oldest | Next Newest »
|
User(s) browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)