Tithing

[heb13-13]

(08-13-2009 03:26 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote:  

(08-13-2009 02:01 PM)heb13-13 Wrote:  

(08-13-2009 01:56 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote:  

(08-13-2009 01:42 PM)heb13-13 Wrote:  The Holy Spirit has a relationship with ALL the members of the Body of Christ and is giving people Words of encouragement, knowledge, exhortation, admonishments, dreams, visions, etc. How can one man be God's repository for this?

I get real nervous when I see things like the Holy Spirit giving dreams and visions for encouragement, knowledge, admonishments, etc. Perhaps my uneasiness comes from being part of a movement that excelled in that - and having personally experienced a bunch of it at one time - I am curious as to your meaning there "sos:

Yes, your involvement there is probably why.

God gave dreams and visions throughout His Word. OT and NT.

Nothing more really needs to be said except that it should line up with His Word. He does not give any new doctrine than what He has revealed in the Scriptures. He used dreams and visions in the Word for personal direction, interpretations of dreams, etc.

Joel 2:28

Let me ask you this - if there is no new doctrine, because we have His Word, then what would be the point? I am not really following your logic here. If the NT spoke of dreams and visions as necessary to one's walk, then why is there no teaching on it? Nor is there any instruction to expect it

The problem is that dreams and visions end up being personal interpretation, with no accountability for such manifestations other than ones own imagination. To me, this is in the same category as hearing a voice

ps: every dream, vision, and words from the Lord that I received - I could most definitely line up with the Word [allbeit twisted] - the problem again is accountability - it does not exist.

(08-13-2009 03:26 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote:  

(08-13-2009 02:01 PM)heb13-13 Wrote:  

(08-13-2009 01:56 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote:  

(08-13-2009 01:42 PM)heb13-13 Wrote:  The Holy Spirit has a relationship with ALL the members of the Body of Christ and is giving people Words of encouragement, knowledge, exhortation, admonishments, dreams, visions, etc. How can one man be God's repository for this?

I get real nervous when I see things like the Holy Spirit giving dreams and visions for encouragement, knowledge, admonishments, etc. Perhaps my uneasiness comes from being part of a movement that excelled in that - and having personally experienced a bunch of it at one time - I am curious as to your meaning there "sos:

Yes, your involvement there is probably why.

God gave dreams and visions throughout His Word. OT and NT.

Nothing more really needs to be said except that it should line up with His Word. He does not give any new doctrine than what He has revealed in the Scriptures. He used dreams and visions in the Word for personal direction, interpretations of dreams, etc.

Joel 2:28

Let me ask you this - if there is no new doctrine, because we have His Word, then what would be the point? I am not really following your logic here. If the NT spoke of dreams and visions as necessary to one's walk, then why is there no teaching on it? Nor is there any instruction to expect it

The problem is that dreams and visions end up being personal interpretation, with no accountability for such manifestations other than ones own imagination. To me, this is in the same category as hearing a voice

ps: every dream, vision, and words from the Lord that I received - I could most definitely line up with the Word [allbeit twisted] - the problem again is accountability - it does not exist.

Joseph and Daniel had dreams but they did not refer to doctrine. They were for personal direction, things to come or for interpretations of other's dreams.

Mary's husband Joseph had dreams for personal direction that protected Mary, Jesus and him.

For instance if God is warning a believer in China in a dream not to go some place that they usually would go to because now it is not safe and later they found out that what was given to them in the dream was true then I would say that the dream was from God. So what would be the point, because we have God's Word? Well, God's Word would not tell that Believer to skip that rendevous that they would normally make, but God's Spirit working in a dream, can very well warn that person.

I don't see what is so foreign and strange about this since it is in God's Word numerous times as a method that He uses to direct people. God did this in the OT and NT and His Word was still around. If you are coming from a background where listening to familiar spirits was the norm, I can understand. And today, someone will have a dream and then tell an entire congregation that this is what God wants us all to do. Ala Jim Jones.

I will give you a personal testimony.

When I was 6 months old in the Lord, on a ship overseas, I received orders for my next duty station. I received these on a Friday. I was on Watch (Duty) the entire weekend and these orders had a caveat to them. First, the orders were for me to report to Point Loma, San Diego but in order to accept these orders, I would have to agree to extend in the Navy for 9 more months.

On top of this, 4 of my very close Christian brothers on the ship were given the same exact orders. They were telling me that this was of God and that it was a no brainer and we could all get an apartment together, etc, etc. Believe me, this sounded really good and all the Christians I knew in the world were the Christian guys on this ship.

But the Holy Spirit, impressed (still small voice) on me that I should not make a decision this very moment and that I should fast and pray over the weekend. Well, as I said, I was on watch all weekend and had to stay on board ship anyway. So, what else was I going to do?

Usually, when I would go to bed, I would read the Word. I fell asleep on Friday and had my first dream as a Christian that I would consider from the Lord. In my dream, this person, I could not see them, as there was a fog covering them, and they were very excited about the book of Habakkuk. They were so excited about it that I got excited and I woke up and started reading Habakkuk. Only one verse jumped out at me. Habukkuk 2:1

I will stand upon my watch, and set me upon the tower, and will watch to see what he will say unto me, and what I shall answer when I am reproved.

Now, I was strongly entertaining ideas of going to San Diego and my friends were trying to convince me. It did "seem" like the Lord, it was so "logical". They were surprised that I did not immediately accept the orders and turn my acceptance back into the Personnel Office.

I pondered this dream and thought, "could this be the Lord telling me that I am doing the right thing to seek Him for an answer this weekend? I think He is telling me to continue to wait on Him".

I took that dream the first night as encouragement from the Lord to continue to seek Him over the weekend. Was I looking for more dreams? No. I had never run into anyone that "pushed dreams". I had been a Christian for 6 months, all overseas, yet, I had read of many in the Bible having dreams so this did not frighten me.

Saturday night, to my astonishment, I had another dream. In this dream, I was in San Diego, with my old, non-christian, best friend at a party with a lot of older teenagers, 18-19 and he was trying to get me to party with him. Dave and I had been best friends on this ship the 14 months before I became a Christian and for the 6 months I was a Christian, the Lord had kept me above reproach living in the same quarters with 25 men that I knew, before I got saved. I was closely watched everyday and in the first 6 months the Lord graciously allowed me to share in the conversions of 3 other sailors. Point being, I was leading a righteous life in Jesus before these men everyday by the power of the Holy Spirit and now I am having a dream where I am with Dave at a party!!

I woke up immediately and was extremely upset and starting praying to the Lord and telling Him that I would never do that. I put that dream on a "shelf" in my mind and pondered it during the day. I was still not seeking dreams. These dreams came to me, I did not seek them.

The next night (Sunday) I fell asleep reading the Word once again and had another dream and in this dream I was in San Diego and I met a beautiful Christian woman at a church. Fast forward, we ended up getting married but right after the marriage, she turned into an evil person. It was a horrible dream and I am leaving out some detail, but in order to just convey the essence I am keeping things short.

I woke up and knew in my heart that I would be rejecting the orders that the Pentagon sent me and would be sending them back. My Christian brothers thought I was crazy but I had a firm conviction that the Lord was directing me to reject these orders.

About a month later, I received new orders and they were to another ship. At once I had joy and expectation that this was directly from the Lord and this is where He wanted me. I began praying for the guys on this ship, immediately. Knowing nothing about the ship, I spent the last 3 months on my present ship interceding for the guys on my new ship. I was very excited. Most sailors want off ships and WANT shore duty, but I was excited because I believed I was in the center of God's will. I did not confer with any man before I rejected those orders to San Diego.

Interestingly, my old friend Dave, told me a week later (after my dreams) that he had just received orders to San Diego. That was my first confirmation, because a week earlier, I saw him in my dream in San Diego. I guess I could have told him that he was going to get orders for San Diego. But I did not. These dreams were just for me. I did, however share with my christian brothers about them. They were less critical of me after that, but still thought I was "crazy" to TURN DOWN SAN DIEGO.

Before I got off my present ship, I was given orders to go to San Diego for 3 weeks of schooling. While at the school, I visited my sister who was in the Navy, stationed at Balboa Hospital, and I led her and another nurse to the Lord. I also went to Calvary Chapel every chance I got and one night at a prayer meeting, an older lady (remember, I was 21) met me after the prayer meeting and found out I was a Sailor and "felt sorry" for me I guess (thinking I never get home cooked meals) and wanted to invite me home to meet her husband and have dinner. Little did I know that she had a daughter and wanted me to meet her, also. Her daughter was beautiful and a "christian" and for the remaining time I was in San Diego, we got to know each other either at her house or at church. I did not have much time left. Maybe 10 days. I left San Diego, after my advanced schooling was completed and joined my new ship in Alameda, CA. I wrote my girlfriend and called and she wrote me. So we stayed in touch.

Once I joined my new ship, I found out that it had the worst drug problems in the Navy and had no chaplain. All ships have chaplains but this one did not. This ship was much different than the one I came off of. The one I came off of had 5,500 men and this one had 450. Over the first 3 months I just starting sowing the Word through conversations and tracts. I could not find a single Believer on board. There are may wonderful stories I could tell, but the long and short of it is that by the time I got off the ship, I was meeting with 7 new believers. When I was overseas, an elderly Christian man that ran the Yokohama Christian Servicemen's home use to tell me, "Rick, wherever you go, if you can't find fellowship, make it". So, that is what I did on my new ship. I could not find any fellowship, so I did what I did on my old ship, started telling people about Jesus. God was faithful and did some great things on both ships.

Back to that Christian girl that I met in San Diego.

My ship went down there a couple of times and we saw each other and then I think I went down there on leave once and stayed with her parents. Things got quite serious and before I knew it we were engaged. But, I could feel the Holy Spirit was very grieved and wanting me to call it off. I did not know why. We were not doing anything wrong. We were spending time together either at her house or church, but I felt God was not please and I was ignoring Him turning a deaf ear to His "voice".

Finally, at Christmas in 1979, I could not take the heaviness anymore and I called it off. She was in tears and I felt like a jerk. My friends in San Diego, also got to know her because when I was down in San Diego, we would all hang out together and go to church.

They told me later that when her Mom brought me home the first night, she left a boyfriend for me and when I called it off, she went back to him and they were married 2 months later. I think one of my friends girl friends from church knew her and told them this.

Me?? I just felt better because I was not grieving the Holy Spirit anymore.

I pondered those dreams I had months ago and remembered that person that I supposedly married. There were some danger signs in the relationship that my emotions were causing me to ignore. I did not know that she left someone for me until later, but I did know and kept ignoring this she was extremely smothering and maybe the Holy Spirit used that also to "wake me up".

I reported to my new ship in August 1979 and called off this relationship with this women, December 1979. I spent the next 15 months dedicated to reaching out to the men on my new ship.

Two weeks before I was about to leave the Navy, I was awakened one night by an officer. I was on the top bunk (of 3 bunks) and a bit groggy when I woke up. I fuzzily saw the insignia on his shoulders and knew he was an officer waking me up and then I saw some gold crosses on his lapels and knew he was a chaplain. He ask me if I was so and so and I said "Yes, sir". He said that he was told to come see me if he was looking for Christians. I immediately asked him, respectfully, if he was born-again and he enthusiastically said he was. I had to ask him that because when I was not a Christian and hanging out in bars in Pusan, Korea, I saw the Chaplain of my ship in that same bar one night with a geisha girls sitting on his knee. So, I knew being a chaplain did not guarantee he was a truly born-again believer in Jesus.

I was very excited then because I had been concerned about the young Believers on board the ship and now God was showing me that He had not forgotten about them.

You see, I was an enlisted man on this ship. I had no rank at all to speak of. Yet, God gave me great favor. I was the Captain's personal driver when our ship was in port, but the XO (Executive Officer) hated me. He hated Christ and that is why he hated me. I was always meeting in empty offices with these other guys and more than once the XO would walk in on us and tell us to disperse. Even though we were doing nothing wrong.

Now, there was an officer who was a chaplain coming on board who was "authorized" to conduct meetings and the best thing is that he knew the Lord. It was a provision from God for these new Christians, just like I was a provision from the Lord 18 months earlier.

Sometimes things were tough on board that new ship. I was made fun of and verbally persecuted many times, but I had the conviction in my heart that this is where God wanted me. I cannot tell you the joy I and my new brothers used to share in the Lord, and the joy there is at seeing someone translated from darkness into light. Yes, this is where I was meant to be, not in San Diego or Point Loma. But without God's divine direction, I may very well have gone to Point Loma, San Diego, with my Christian brothers who I was very, very close to.

This is a example of a personal testimony of what I believe were Divinely inspired dreams and they were proven out in my life.

I don't think I have had any dreams since then that I could say were definitely from God.

Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

I still believe we are in the last days. Acts 2:17 is not instruction to "expect it", but rather instruction that IT WILL HAPPEN. It is a promise! The entire Bible in itself with all the stories about dreams and visions from God is instruction by example that God does speak in this way.

You are right there is no teaching that it is necessary for our walk. But when Joseph, Daniel, and others had dreams from God, they did not need somone telling them that it was from God.

I have had some dreams that I know were from the pit of hell. If demons can speak to us this way, I am sure that God has still retained His ability to do so. Plus, I have heard way too many testimonys divine dreams. And of course I have heard many more bad ones (fleshly) than good ones.

Anyway, that's my story and I'm sticking to it.