Are tongues a sign of the Holy Spirit?

[Vic]

(05-29-2011 07:12 PM)Deborah446 Wrote:  Quote
We will never be 'perfect' in this world because we will always have the flesh and sin to contend with in some way. But we can become of full age, and mature in Christ.

Not comfortable with putting a limit on being perfect. Often look to the mortify the deeds of the flesh section. I believe that people have not completely mortified the deeds of the flesh (belief of never be perfect as encouragement puts limit on the race) but we see Jesus tell people to be perfect and it would make God pleased for us to do what he so has planned for us.

As far as Tongues I agree on known languages. One day I spoke in Tongues to Vietnamese neighbor and he acted afraid so I ran inside and he did likewise; day or Two later he knocked on my door with bible and cross. A few friends who are not fluent but a little familiar have heard other known languages. Years ago I purchased a few foreign dictionaries and compared to recordings but too hard for me. The Pentecostal church for instruction in using the gifts of the Holy Spirit is a very bad idea.... [/quote]

Hi Deborah, being perfect in the Greek does not mean flawless. There is not one person who can say that they are perfectly flawless, in attitude, what they say, what they believe, motives, etc.

Christ who is our righteousness because we have none of our own, makes us complete--the definition for perfect. We can mature, we can grow up and put away childish things, and we definitely must as you say, mortify the deeds of the body, but even the apostles---so incredibly an example of living Christ, sinned. They made mistakes. We are to walk in the Spirit and live to Christ, but we all can have a moment of impatience, or wrong anger, a fleeting moment of unbelief where we are not resting in Christ.

Look at Peter's hypocrisy in Galatians 2. The reason for Acts 15...and what did James say:

Jas 3:2 For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.
Jas 3:3 Behold, we put bits in the horses' mouths, that they may obey us; and we turn about their whole body.
Jas 3:4 Behold also the ships, which though they be so great, and are driven of fierce winds, yet are they turned about with a very small helm, whithersoever the governor listeth.
Jas 3:5 Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth!
Jas 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.
Jas 3:7 For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed, and hath been tamed of mankind:
Jas 3:8 But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.
Jas 3:9 Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.
Jas 3:10 Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.
Jas 3:11 Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?
Jas 3:12 Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.
Jas 3:13 Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.

Look at Paul, there was certainly sin here:

Act 15:37 And Barnabas determined to take with them John, whose surname was Mark.
Act 15:38 But Paul thought not good to take him with them, who departed from them from Pamphylia, and went not with them to the work.
Act 15:39 And the contention was so sharp between them, that they departed asunder one from the other: and so Barnabas took Mark, and sailed unto Cyprus;

the contention was so sharp between:
G3948
παροξυσμός
paroxusmos
Thayer Definition:
1) an inciting, incitement
2) irritation
Part of Speech: noun masculine

departed asunder:
G673
ἀποχωρίζω
apochōrizō
Thayer Definition:
1) to separate, sever
2) to part asunder
3) to separate one’s self, depart from
Part of Speech: verb

one from the other
G575
ἀπό
apo
Thayer Definition:
1) of separation
1a) of local separation, after verbs of motion from a place, i.e. of departing, of fleeing, ...
1b) of separation of a part from the whole
1b1) where of a whole some part is taken
1c) of any kind of separation of one thing from another by which the union or fellowship of the two is destroyed
1d) of a state of separation, that is of distance
1d1) physical, of distance of place
1d2) temporal, of distance of time
2) of origin
2a) of the place whence anything is, comes, befalls, is taken
2b) of origin of a cause
Part of Speech: preposition
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: a primary particle

And John:
1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

We run the race in spite of the flesh that we must contend with.

1Co 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
1Co 9:25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
1Co 9:26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
1Co 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Php 2:14 Do all things without murmurings and disputings:
Php 2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;
Php 2:16 Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.

If we are perfected to mean flawless we would not need verses such as these:

Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Heb 12:3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
Heb 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
Heb 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
Heb 12:10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
Heb 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

ON the tongues issue and known languages--to that we agree. The issue is speaking in another language when no one is there to interpret...is that Scriptural?

1Co 14:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
1Co 14:28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and ...

1Co 14:5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
1Co 14:6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?
1Co 14:7 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?
1Co 14:8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?
1Co 14:9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.
1Co 14:10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.

1Co 14:11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.
1Co 14:12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.
1Co 14:13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.

1Co 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
1Co 14:23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?