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What's the difference between Hebrew Roots and Messianic?
12-05-2011, 02:57 AM (This post was last modified: 12-05-2011 03:17 AM by Mark_R.)
Post: #21
RE: What's the difference between Hebrew Roots and Messianic?
Of course God's law is the truth and every one of His Word's, every precept and testimony faithful, pure and true. Who has said otherwise?And until Christ, all of Israel was bound to abide and obey the commandments within Mosaic law, but there is far more to God's Word and law than found there. When Christ
came, being the fulfillment of the law and the prophets, The Salvation of God; He is the New Covenant and brought in the New Covenant. We are to follow the law of Christ... see these Scriptures: Ephesians 2:14-15; Colossians 2:14-17; Hebrews 7,8,9

The ordinances and commandments of the law were nailed to the cross Mark.
Where is it that the "commandments and ordinances are nailed to the cross?
Col 2:14 having blotted out the certificate of debt against us – by the dogmas – which stood against us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the stake.
That does not mean commandments and ordinances by any stretch. That probably is refering to man made "dogmas" and deals with all of the adding to the real "commandments and ordinances" that the Pharisees put forth on the people.
Eph 2:15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity – the Torah of the commands in dogma – so as to create in Himself one renewed man from the two, thus making peace,
Eph 2:16 and to completely restore to favour both of them unto Elohim in one body through the stake, having destroyed the enmity by it.
The "enmity-the Torah commands in dogma"" not the "Torah and all the commandments".
How do you deal with this Quote from The Messiah Himself?[/b]
Joh_14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Mat_5:18 “For truly, I say to you, till the heaven and the earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall by no means pass from the Torah till all be done. (last time I checked Heaven and earth were still here)
Luk_16:17 “And it is easier for the heaven and the earth to pass away than for one tittle of the Torah to fall.
And of course from John; 1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
2Jn 1:5 And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another.
2Jn 1:6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

For one thing Yeshua said "Mat_15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Meaning HE didn't come for the so called Christian Church. He came for Israel. And exactly where is it you even see anywhere that HE comes for " Christians"?
Heb_8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
If he did away with the so called law, Why would the New Covenant include HIS "laws" put in their minds and wrote on their hearts?
Rev_7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
Rev_21:12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
Now since there only seems to be 12 gates, which gate do "Christians go through? Especially since there are over 2 billion Christians and 38,000 Christian labeled denominations !!!

Do you not understand the grafting in of the Gentiles? The only way we enter those gates or are able to be a part of this new Covenant is to be grafted into the Natural Tree and root, that of course being Israel.


Rom 11:11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Let it not be! But by their fall deliverance has come to the gentiles, to provoke them to jealousy.
Rom 11:12 And if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the gentiles, how much more their completeness!
Rom 11:13 For I speak to you, the gentiles, inasmuch as I am an emissary to the gentiles, I esteem my service,
Rom 11:14 if somehow I might provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them.
Rom 11:15 For if their casting away is the restoration to favour of the world, what is their acceptance but life from the dead?
Rom 11:16 Now if the first-fruit is set-apart, the lump is also. And if the root is set-apart, so are the branches.
Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, have been grafted in among them, and came to share the root and fatness of the olive tree,
Rom 11:18 do not boast against the branches. And if you boast, remember: you do not bear the root, but the root bears you!
Rom 11:19 You shall say then, “The branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.”
Rom 11:20 Good! By unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by belief. Do not be arrogant, but fear.
Rom 11:21 For if Elohim did not spare the natural branches, He might not spare you either.
Rom 11:22 See then the kindness and sharpness of Elohim: on those who fell sharpness, but toward you kindness, if you continue in His kindness, otherwise you also shall be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, shall be grafted in, for Elohim is able to graft them in again.
Rom 11:24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree, how much more shall these who are the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
Rom 11:25 For I do not wish you to be ignorant of this secret, brothers, lest you should be wise in your own estimation, that hardening in part has come over Yisra’ĕl, until the completeness of the gentiles has come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Yisra’ĕl shall be saved, as it has been written, “The Deliverer shall come out of Tsiyon, and He shall turn away wickedness from Yaʽaqoḇ,
Rom 11:27 and this is My covenant with them, when I take away their sins.”
Rom 11:28 Truly, as regards the Good News they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.
Rom 11:29 For the gifts and the calling of Elohim are not to be repented of.
Rom 11:30 For as you also at one time disobeyed Elohim, but now have obtained compassion through their disobedience,
Rom 11:31 so also these have now disobeyed, that through the compassion shown you they also might obtain compassion.
Rom 11:32 For Elohim has shut them all up to disobedience, in order to have compassion on all.
Rom 11:33 Oh, the depth of riches, and wisdom and knowledge of Elohim! How unsearchable His judgments and untraceable His ways!
Rom 11:34 “For who has known the mind of יהוה? Or who has become His counsellor?”
Rom 11:35 “Or who first gave to Him, and it shall be given back to him?”
Rom 11:36 Because of Him, and through Him, and to Him, are all, to whom be esteem forever. Amĕn.

I guess we could also go into the whole Idea of your Christian doctrine and where it even comes from if you'd like. History recorded alot to say about where the Christian church gets it's "self made" doctrines. Yeshua/Jesus sure didn't have a single word to say to the "Christian Church".
(12-05-2011 01:16 AM)Lois Wrote:  Mark can you post a link to where on the site this hatred is so I can read it for myself,please?

Lois,
I would surely do that but beings I'm a "Newbie" I'm not allowed to post links. However, it's not hard to find here. I mean could you actually find anything other then Hate toward any of the Hebrew Roots people? Not to mention anyone who does not agree with all the doctrine of this site, are seriously blasted for not doing so. My whole issue to begin with was really just my own observations on the posts I looked at regarding The Hebrew roots people. I don't see why it's such a problem that they walk out their believes in the way's they do. Why is it that so called "Christians" get to be the only right way? Do any of us really understand everything perfectly enough to be so judgmental to others? How come you all think you got it all down to a perfect science? And that there is no possible way the Hebrew/messianic Believer's may just be seeing things in a good and true light? And just because they don't walk according to your all way's they are all wrong, every single one of them?
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12-05-2011, 07:37 PM
Post: #22
RE: What's the difference between Hebrew Roots and Messianic?
Mark you are right sorry I forgot new people can't post links.I have my own opinions but this is not my site so I will let Vic defend it. I still am not seeing things the same way you are Mark.I'm not seeing the site as being hateful towards the "Hebrew Roots People"(as you called them)..I see the site as being opposed to the doctrines/dogams of falsehoods..not against people.

Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.(2John 1:9)
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12-05-2011, 10:01 PM
Post: #23
RE: What's the difference between Hebrew Roots and Messianic?
Hi Mark and welcome to the forum!!
I'm really sorry that you have such a bad opinion of the forum and that you seem to see a lot of negative things.There are a lot of posters here and things can heated but that tends to happen on all discussion boards that involve religion.

I wanted to comment on some of the things you wrote.


Quote:Where is it that the "commandments and ordinances are nailed to the cross?
Col 2:14 having blotted out the certificate of debt against us – by the dogmas – which stood against us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the stake.
That does not mean commandments and ordinances by any stretch. That probably is refering to man made "dogmas" and deals with all of the adding to the real "commandments and ordinances" that the Pharisees put forth on the people.
Eph 2:15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity – the Torah of the commands in dogma – so as to create in Himself one renewed man from the two, thus making peace,
Eph 2:16 and to completely restore to favour both of them unto Elohim in one body through the stake, having destroyed the enmity by it.
The "enmity-the Torah commands in dogma"" not the "Torah and all the commandments".

In Colossians 2 :14

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.



The word for handwriting in greek cheirographon and denotes obviously something handwritten and the word for ordinances is dogma

So what are the handwritten ordinances that are spoken of? It cannot be the dogmas of the Pharisees as you so called it as all they had then were the Tradition of the Elders.They hadn't been written down into what later became the Mishna, Talmud etc until later.In Ephesians we see that again the same concept reappears


Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; to make in himself of two one new man, so making peace;


In Ephesians 2 :15 we see it speaks of the law (nomos) of commandments (entole) contained in ordinances (dogma).. so seems to be speaking of somethings written which led to an enmity or separation between jew and non jew.From the OT we know that this was the Law and its commandments and ordinances.
I don't understand you quote up there as the Torah/Law is made up of the commandments and ordinances.



Quote:How do you deal with this Quote from The Messiah Himself?
Joh_14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Mat_5:18 “For truly, I say to you, till the heaven and the earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall by no means pass from the Torah till all be done. (last time I checked Heaven and earth were still here)
Luk_16:17 “And it is easier for the heaven and the earth to pass away than for one tittle of the Torah to fall.
And of course from John; 1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
2Jn 1:5 And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another.
2Jn 1:6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

When Jesus says to keep His commanments He is talking about the commandments and instructions He gave while He walked the earth.You yourself posted one in that last Scripture regarding that we should love one another.
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12-06-2011, 03:29 AM
Post: #24
RE: What's the difference between Hebrew Roots and Messianic?
(12-05-2011 10:01 PM)Rose of Shushan Wrote:  Hi Mark and welcome to the forum!!
I'm really sorry that you have such a bad opinion of the forum and that you seem to see a lot of negative things.There are a lot of posters here and things can heated but that tends to happen on all discussion boards that involve religion.

I wanted to comment on some of the things you wrote.


Thank you for at least being respectful. And for not just being snotty. Very much appreciated. And I would like to respond to what you said about the dogma issue. I don't see it the same way as you honestly and from what I've studied about the word "dogma" this is what I find.

• DOGMA (noun) a religious doctrine that is proclaimed as true without proof. Hypernyms -church doctrine; creed; gospel; religious doctrine (the written body of teachings of a religious group that are generally accepted by that group).
Hyponyms (each of the following is a kind of "dogma"):
article of faith; credendum.

And I find that a common understanding. So, once again that is why I would say it was refering to the "dogma" of the Pharisees. Also we should also include verse 13; And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses. So then the way I see it, is that That Certificate of debt refers to what the penalty for sin is , which of course would be Death, more accurately, the 2nd death, eternal separation from Adonai. I really find nothing that Yeshua ever said that would agree with the doctrine of us not having a obligation to abide by the instructions given to us By YWVH to live by. And I really don't understand why people even want to make a issue out of people wanting to abide by those instructions. One thing is completely clear is that it most definitely isn't a issue of our salvation weather or not someone want's to abide by the God given Commandments and ordinances, is it? And is it also a issue of our eternal salvation if people decide they want to honor Adonai by keeping the feasts ? I just don't see that. If some of us want to believe that and practice such honorable things why would we be judged for doing so? That's my big issue with all the negative posts against Hebrew roots groups. There is a lot of things we don't understand but, somethings we should know. Like that Yeshua paid the price for our Sin and was resurrected and ascended to the right hand of the Father. And there as our high Priest continually doing intersession for us. So, see this shouldn't be a problem. Just because everyone does not see things the way the "Christian Church" sees things or does things does not in fact mean others are wrong and going to pay with their eternal soul's. I really don't see anywhere that it says That Yeshua was made a sacrifice for just the Believes and doctrines of "Christians".
Also, in response to your understanding of the word translated as "handwriting" from the Greek word "cheirographon". It actually refers to a manuscript or specifically a legal document. So it could be just as the translation above renders it "Certificate of debt" since it is referencing to verse 13 forgiving us for our trespasses which give us that Debt.


Quote:Where is it that the "commandments and ordinances are nailed to the cross?
Col 2:14 having blotted out the certificate of debt against us – by the dogmas – which stood against us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the stake.
That does not mean commandments and ordinances by any stretch. That probably is refering to man made "dogmas" and deals with all of the adding to the real "commandments and ordinances" that the Pharisees put forth on the people.
Eph 2:15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity – the Torah of the commands in dogma – so as to create in Himself one renewed man from the two, thus making peace,
Eph 2:16 and to completely restore to favour both of them unto Elohim in one body through the stake, having destroyed the enmity by it.
The "enmity-the Torah commands in dogma"" not the "Torah and all the commandments".

In Colossians 2 :14

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.



The word for handwriting in greek cheirographon and denotes obviously something handwritten and the word for ordinances is dogma

So what are the handwritten ordinances that are spoken of? It cannot be the dogmas of the Pharisees as you so called it as all they had then were the Tradition of the Elders.They hadn't been written down into what later became the Mishna, Talmud etc until later.In Ephesians we see that again the same concept reappears


Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; to make in himself of two one new man, so making peace;


In Ephesians 2 :15 we see it speaks of the law (nomos) of commandments (entole) contained in ordinances (dogma).. so seems to be speaking of somethings written which led to an enmity or separation between jew and non jew.From the OT we know that this was the Law and its commandments and ordinances.
I don't understand you quote up there as the Torah/Law is made up of the commandments and ordinances.



Quote:How do you deal with this Quote from The Messiah Himself?
Joh_14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Mat_5:18 “For truly, I say to you, till the heaven and the earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall by no means pass from the Torah till all be done. (last time I checked Heaven and earth were still here)
Luk_16:17 “And it is easier for the heaven and the earth to pass away than for one tittle of the Torah to fall.
And of course from John; 1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
2Jn 1:5 And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another.
2Jn 1:6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

When Jesus says to keep His commanments He is talking about the commandments and instructions He gave while He walked the earth.You yourself posted one in that last Scripture regarding that we should love one another.
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12-06-2011, 09:15 AM (This post was last modified: 12-06-2011 09:22 AM by Rose of Shushan.)
Post: #25
RE: What's the difference between Hebrew Roots and Messianic?
Mark,I am still not clear on what you say the handwritten ordinances were? From what I see (please correct me if I am wrong) you interpret it to be a certificate of debt? Can you please expand on that?
To me it seems to be the Law because that is the only set of commands or ordinances that we have written.Additionally these commands lead to the separation of jew and gentile.Sin doesn't differentiate between jew or gentile since all people sin.Therefore if that certificate of debt were to be a record of our sins or something to that effect it doesn't explain the separation that they led to and it being removed by being nailed to the Cross.
In Colossians 2:16 it makes reference to prescriptions of the Law so it makes perfect sense to me that it's referring to the Law in the preceding verse too.


Quote:And I find that a common understanding. So, once again that is why I would say it was refering to the "dogma" of the Pharisees. Also we should also include verse 13; And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses. So then the way I see it, is that That Certificate of debt refers to what the penalty for sin is , which of course would be Death, more accurately, the 2nd death, eternal separation from Adonai.
I cannot understand what you mean by the above hence my question at the beginning of thispost.The passage in Colossians leading up to verse 13 is

Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.


The reference to circumcision there refers to the circumcision of the heart,of which bodily circumcision was just a shadow.Indeed verse 17 refers to the other things in the Law as shadows

Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Since the Law was a shadow of what was to come in Christ, that is why I personally think that trying to observe OT commandments such as the Sabbath, New Moons etc is pointless.
We don't have to anymore, all that belonged to the Old Covenant.


Quote:I really find nothing that Yeshua ever said that would agree with the doctrine of us not having a obligation to abide by the instructions given to us By YWVH to live by. And I really don't understand why people even want to make a issue out of people wanting to abide by those instructions. One thing is completely clear is that it most definitely isn't a issue of our salvation weather or not someone want's to abide by the God given Commandments and ordinances, is it? And is it also a issue of our eternal salvation if people decide they want to honor Adonai by keeping the feasts ? I just don't see that. If some of us want to believe that and practice such honorable things why would we be judged for doing so? That's my big issue with all the negative posts against Hebrew roots groups. There is a lot of things we don't understand but, somethings we should know.

The thing is these instructions require a Temple, a High Priest and Priesthood etc. You admitted in your post that Jesus is your High Priest yet you also want to abide by the Law that requires you to take your sacrifices(of animals) to a High Priest.And to add insult to injury there isn't even a Temple and old covenant priesthood anymore but stil you say we ought to do these things.
Your reasoning might be that you do as much of the Law as you can right? But then that leads me to ask you the question that, if the Priesthood was suddenly resinstated and a Temple, would you then go and take your animals to an earthly High Priest? This is not a rhetorical question as I really do look forward to your answer. .It is so important as it means you are focusing on the shadows and not on the reality which is Christ.
We are not in Old Covenant times, we are thanks be to God in the New Covenant where we have a High Priest who is for ever.
Keeping the feasts involved sacrificing animals and the respective ceremonial obligations.To me when you say you are keeping the Feast it sounds misleading since you aren't doing what is commanded.
At best what you are doing is a memorial and there is nothing wrong with that.The thing is that you seem to be thinking you are observing God's commands regarding the feasts when you aren't and like I said before if you could, it would involve an earthly High Priest and animals.Wouldn't that be pushing Jesus the real High Priest out of the picture? :(
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12-06-2011, 10:37 AM
Post: #26
RE: What's the difference between Hebrew Roots and Messianic?
(12-05-2011 12:41 AM)Mark_R Wrote:  I wasn't trying to make it out to be anything but what it was. I did not say you deleted my post unfairly. I said you deleted it because I'm a newbie. All the reasons you had given me for the deletion were quite long and very clear. Yes you are right I should have just replied instead of making a new post. No I didn't read all your rules for a newbie making a new post. So sorry to violate your rules. And I'm not passing a judgment on you I'm making a observation as a "newbie" on what I have read and what I see. Sorry your not open to a "Newbies" input as to what they might see and feel about your wonderful site. It sure wouldn't take much for someone other then your own group, to see how negitive and hateful so many of your topics are to people in the Hebrew roots groups. Maybe you could consider having a "newbie" area so, that you could actually see how new people might think and feel about what you have to say. I mean seriously, look how you lash out at just me for giving my opinions and not having "replied in the all so proper form. Clearly you don't like what I have to say since it probably doesn't line up with you views and opinions. Sorry I'm not as the same mind as you are about these things. But, all this hate and discontent is just incredible to me.

Mark, IF you had read the forum rules, you would know you are not to bring complaints about admin decisions to the threads/posts but take it private. Yet you continue to do so. I gave you the link for the full forum rules in my PM to you and requested you read them before posting. You either have not bothered or have chosen yet again to ignore them. Please rectify that attitude and behavior.

Here is the link so there is no mistaking what I am referring to. http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.php?tid=229

YOU are passing judgment Mark and you can restate that any way you wish. When someone comes on the forum and the first thing out of their mouth is condemnation and false accusation that is fully your intent and goal. It can be no other. If you were here to discuss you would have asked questions instead of falsely accusing.

To make it clear Mark, I was not "lashing out at you" as you like to claim. Playing the victim is so common with people who come with a bad attitude and refuse to 1) read the forum rules 2) abide the forum rules.

You don't want to be held accountable for any of what you say, but feel justified in saying whatever you want, despite how false, inaccurate and unScriptural. That's not acceptable. Simple etiquette and respect for others dictates otherwise.

MY responses and posts to your post Mark, was a line by line response---it was not lashing out but making sure you knew I took what you said seriously and wanted to address it all. Which I did. Now you think I shouldn't have because you don't like what I have to say. I asked questions you refused to answer.

Does it mean you simply want a platform to spew and want everyone to agree with all you have to say, regardless how inaccurate it is?

No qualifying your 'opinion' with facts, no scripture, just your opinion is what is to be accepted and listened to. And what Scripture do you suppose would support that Mark?

You have used the negatives and false accusations in your posts and have included these in your very first post:

"hater" "hate" "critical and hateful" "you ever so slightly change a few things in order to make your points". "Why is it in your heart to want to hurt people and cause so much strife?" "your way and your religion is the only way to believe" "Self righteousness, and judgment on others" "I'm sure your gonna delete this "reply" also" "your main objective to cause division and discontent" "If HE is in you then you would not make it your your mission to be causing Division and grief" "stop being so critical of other's" etc.

IN another post you suggested I was being 'snotty' by responding to you in those answers. HOw does this and the above sound to you?

"So sorry to violate your rules. And I'm not passing a judgment on you I'm making a observation as a "newbie" on what I have read and what I see. Sorry your not open to a "Newbies" input as to what they might see and feel about your wonderful site. It sure wouldn't take much for someone other then your own group, to see how negitive and hateful...

Maybe you could consider having a "newbie" area so, that you could actually see how new people might think and feel about what you have to say..">>>>>>>

THe point is Mark , you have been given opportunity to spew and you have. Was your post or any content deleted? THe answer would be NO. YOu have given all your opinion and it's been evaluated, but you wish to imply and openly suggest you are not being allowed to speak. THe issue is, YOU simply don't like what is said in that evaluation. It's not a matter of liking or disliking what you say Mark. It's a matter, is it truth, is it Biblically supported, is it factually supported. And so far you have struck out on all three. Supposition and opinion do not make something correct. As I pointed out to you.

Vic
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3John 1:4 I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth.
Isaiah 40:31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.
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12-06-2011, 11:37 AM
Post: #27
RE: What's the difference between Hebrew Roots and Messianic?
(12-05-2011 02:57 AM)Mark_R Wrote:  
(12-05-2011 01:16 AM)Lois Wrote:  Mark can you post a link to where on the site this hatred is so I can read it for myself,please?

Lois,
I would surely do that but beings I'm a "Newbie" I'm not allowed to post links. However, it's not hard to find here. I mean could you actually find anything other then Hate toward any of the Hebrew Roots people? Not to mention anyone who does not agree with all the doctrine of this site, are seriously blasted for not doing so. My whole issue to begin with was really just my own observations on the posts I looked at regarding The Hebrew roots people. I don't see why it's such a problem that they walk out their believes in the way's they do. Why is it that so called "Christians" get to be the only right way? Do any of us really understand everything perfectly enough to be so judgmental to others? How come you all think you got it all down to a perfect science? And that there is no possible way the Hebrew/messianic Believer's may just be seeing things in a good and true light? And just because they don't walk according to your all way's they are all wrong, every single one of them?

Good question Lois. And reiterates my request for Mark to provide quotes to the accusations.

Your response is more than a little inadequate, Mark. LInks really make no difference in providing any documentation for your false accusations. You obviously know how to copy and paste, and it takes not a lot of thought to grab the name of a thread, including the name of the discussion forum section, name the post number, who's post it is and copy paste in the 'hate' you keep suggesting is so glaringly obvious.

Quite frankly, IF you had read the forum rules you would know you are allowed to discuss my website articles and also forum discussions and yes links could be used in that case. But... either way, you could have quoted, named the source title and gone from there. THe problem is you are making sweeping statements without supporting documentation. And that means false accusation. And you should be ashamed of yourself for that.

You keep trying to bait me, Mark with your accusations but as I said, you better be prepared for a reasoned and Biblical response. And so far you haven't actually answered most of posts 15-17 which were a direct response to your first post. Why is that Mark?

And just so you get it right Mark, when you use a Bible version other than KJV here, you are required BY LAW to respect copyright and show source. That means you not only violated forum rules again but the law of the land. So you understand please read: Re Copyright Law http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.php?tid=354 and which is also presented in the full forum rules.

Please abide those requirements so there are no further issues about it.

You used the errant ISR incidentaly, which denies the deity of Christ and changes many doctrines. Please see: http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.php?tid=17 or

http://www.seekgod.ca/hr/hrfaqs9a1.htm#vers

Mark, if I hated someone, I wouldn't waste my time or money having a website or forum to try and help people to come out of false doctrine and error. I would let them drown in it. It's because of Christ and His love for me, that I can love others and desire to point to Him and the Word of God as our standard of Truth. If that's offensive to you, I am sorry, but the Scriptures tell me that we are to reprove the fruitless deeds of darkness, and try the spirits and prove all we believe to God's Word.


Jud 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Jud 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
Jud 1:22 And of some have compassion, making a difference:
Jud 1:23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
Jud 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
Jud 1:25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.


As I have said, that is what is being done here. That you don't like it and don't want anything said about HR shows a lack of understanding. You should be glad that HR is being discussed and tested to the Scriptures. Because failure to do so would mean your not wanting it brought to the light.


Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Joh 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Joh 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.


As I have said many times, HR is found wanting according to the Scriptures and the doctrine they present. The leadership is evaluated by their fruit, not just finding who they are but what they believe and teach. Just as is done for Christian leadership. We are required to do that. Christ is the only way and we are to use the Scriptures for our doctrine and prove it is Scriptural. HR has been evaluated indepth, through their many varied arguments and doctrines and very poor scholarship at times, and they are not leading people to Christ. In fact many reject Jesus Christ of the Scriptures and follow another gospel and another Jesus--called various made up and inaccurate Hebrew names, and with the eventual rejection of the NT/New Covenant and the final sacrifice in Christ. That's documented fact Mark, and comes also from those who were lost in that movement and by God's grace have come out.


It's not about 'being' Christian or religious Mark. It's about believing and following Jesus Christ, and knowing HIm as Savior and Lord. Having a relationship with Him.
[/color]

Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Eph 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
Eph 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

1Co 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

1Pe 2:1 Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,
1Pe 2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
1Pe 2:3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
1Pe 2:4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
1Pe 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
1Pe 2:7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
1Pe 2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

2Pe 3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

Eph 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
Eph 3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
Eph 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
Eph 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

2Pe 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
2Pe 1:2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
2Pe 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
2Pe 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
2Pe 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
2Pe 1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
2Pe 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.


YOu might not like what is presented Mark. You might not want to hear it and that's fine. But in pursuit of Truth, it is there for all to read, research, discuss and weigh to the Scriptures. The only ones who claim it's hate filled are those who wish to remain part of it, and who refuse in most cases to answer the Scriptural and factual issues presented. And that Mark is very sad.

Vic
SeekGod.ca

3John 1:4 I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth.
Isaiah 40:31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.
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12-06-2011, 02:27 PM (This post was last modified: 12-06-2011 03:16 PM by Rose of Shushan.)
Post: #28
RE: What's the difference between Hebrew Roots and Messianic?
Quote:For one thing Yeshua said "Mat_15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Meaning HE didn't come for the so called Christian Church. He came for Israel. And exactly where is it you even see anywhere that HE comes for " Christians"?
Sent to the House of Israel because they were the ones in a covenant with God at the time.But what did Jesus also say?

Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.



He would draw all men.The prophets also spoke of this seemingly worldwide mission of the Servant.

Isa 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

Isa 42:4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.

Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
Isa 42:7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.


Isa 42:10 Sing unto the LORD a new song, and his praise from the end of the earth, ye that go down to the sea, and all that is therein; the isles, and the inhabitants thereof.
Isa 42:11 Let the wilderness and the cities thereof lift up their voice, the villages that Kedar doth inhabit: let the inhabitants of the rock sing, let them shout from the top of the mountains.
Isa 42:12 Let them give glory unto the LORD, and declare his praise in the islands.

Isa 49:5 And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength.
Isa 49:6 And he said, [b]It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.



[/b]

That is just in one chapter, there are many more.
We see that God's plan to include the Gentiles into His plan begins in earnest in the Book of Acts.How does the Book of Acts fit into your reasoning that Jesus only came for Israel? was Peter then wrong to heed God's commandment to go to Cornelius? Was Paul wrong in being an apostle to the Gentiles? Would you tell Paul that since Jesus said at a particular moment in time that He was sent to His people in fulfilment of the promises made to their Fathers, that he had no right to then obey God in what was the next stage of God's plan.
The same thing happens when people quote Jeremiah 32 and say that the New Covenant was promised only to the House of Israel..In Jeremiah 32 the prophet addresses the people that were in a covenant with God at the time.The covenant is made with Israel since they were in covenant but what Jeremiah omits,since he had no reason to elaborate further there, is that the Gentiles would also be able to enter into that New Covenant.As Paul says in Ephesians, gentiles become equal in footing to the descendants of Israel /Jacob.


Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
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12-06-2011, 08:31 PM
Post: #29
RE: What's the difference between Hebrew Roots and Messianic?
(12-06-2011 02:27 PM)Rose of Shushan Wrote:  
Quote:For one thing Yeshua said "Mat_15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Meaning HE didn't come for the so called Christian Church. He came for Israel. And exactly where is it you even see anywhere that HE comes for " Christians"?

Sent to the House of Israel because they were the ones in a covenant with God at the time.But what did Jesus also say?Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

He would draw all men.The prophets also spoke of this seemingly worldwide mission of the Servant.

Isa 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

Isa 42:4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.

Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
Isa 42:7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

Isa 42:10 Sing unto the LORD a new song, and his praise from the end of the earth, ye that go down to the sea, and all that is therein; the isles, and the inhabitants thereof.
Isa 42:11 Let the wilderness and the cities thereof lift up their voice, the villages that Kedar doth inhabit: let the inhabitants of the rock sing, let them shout from the top of the mountains.
Isa 42:12 Let them give glory unto the LORD, and declare his praise in the islands.

Isa 49:5 And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength.
Isa 49:6 And he said, [b]It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
[/b]

That is just in one chapter, there are many more.
We see that God's plan to include the Gentiles into His plan begins in earnest in the Book of Acts.How does the Book of Acts fit into your reasoning that Jesus only came for Israel? was Peter then wrong to heed God's commandment to go to Cornelius? Was Paul wrong in being an apostle to the Gentiles? Would you tell Paul that since Jesus said at a particular moment in time that He was sent to His people in fulfilment of the promises made to their Fathers, that he had no right to then obey God in what was the next stage of God's plan.
The same thing happens when people quote Jeremiah 32 and say that the New Covenant was promised only to the House of Israel..In Jeremiah 32 the prophet addresses the people that were in a covenant with God at the time.The covenant is made with Israel since they were in covenant but what Jeremiah omits,since he had no reason to elaborate further there, is that the Gentiles would also be able to enter into that New Covenant.As Paul says in Ephesians, gentiles become equal in footing to the descendants of Israel /Jacob.


Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

Good posts Rose. I would just like to add these Scriptures and thoughts.

Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Gal 3:4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
Gal 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Gal 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
Gal 3:9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith:
but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
Gal 3:20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.

Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Rom 4:9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
Rom 4:10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
Rom 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
Rom 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
Rom 4:14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
Rom 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
Rom 4:18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.

Rom 4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
Rom 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
Rom 4:25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.


We are as believers, united as one new man in Christ. Neither Jew or Gentile, circumcision or uncircumcision but in Christ. He is the Root of Jesse and the Root and offspring of David, and those who believe are of the household of God.


Rom 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:
Rom 15:9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.
Rom 15:10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people.
Rom 15:11 And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people.
Rom 15:12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.
See also Romans 11

We are rooted in Christ, not Israel. All those of Israel who believe are also rooted in Christ. Jesus said He is the vine, we are the branches. It is fully and completely about Him.


Col 2:6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:
Col 2:7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;


Joh 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
Joh 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
Joh 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Vic
SeekGod.ca

3John 1:4 I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth.
Isaiah 40:31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.
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12-06-2011, 11:24 PM
Post: #30
RE: What's the difference between Hebrew Roots and Messianic?
Israel got to physically see Jesus, walk with Him and talk with Him every day.
Jesus only came to the house of Israel physically in the flesh.

Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat 15:25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
Mat 15:26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
Mat 15:27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
Mat 15:28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy FAITH: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.


The rest of the world got Jesus through word(the testimony of Paul) and faith.

Mat 15:28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy FAITH: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

God can't go against His own word...
Mat 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
Mat 7:8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
Mat 7:9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?


That woman was not of the house of Israel but she sought God ,she asked Jesus and God honored her FAITH and His word by making her daughter whole.

Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.(2John 1:9)
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