What's the difference between Hebrew Roots and Messianic?

[Vic]

(12-14-2011 12:47 AM)Mark_R Wrote:  

(12-13-2011 04:12 PM)Mary Wrote:  To build on my question above, why do HR and Messianics think it is so important to keep the feasts and old laws when Jesus says this:"Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.?" John 6:28-29

Mary
First, I think when your in the Presence of the Almighty God, you can't help but tremble. His presence is so incredibly awesome I don't think I could not have a fear and trembling inside. It isn't because I'm afraid by any means. It's just the knowing and realizing who HE is and in whose presence I stand. I doubt you could be in the presence of any true ,powerful and Great King or leader and not have that reverence
And to the other question. Personally I wouldn't call myself either of those things. However, I have a clear understanding that my forefathers Abraham Isaac and Jacob were not Jew's they were Hebrew's. Which means to cross over. And I have crossed over, and have heard YHWH call me to be "set apart". So I can't speak for them but, for me, I keep the feasts as a memorial. A memorial to what HE has done for all HIS people and for me personally. I have without failure been blessed beyond any expectations, every time without a doubt that I enter in to HIS feast's as well as HIS Shabbath. And I truly believe as well as witness those blessings first hand. So, anyone can judge that anyway they want to, I don't care. I live For My God and I try in everything I do to Honor Him. I don't do it for any other reason.

Mark, someone who believes Jesus Christ is indwelt with the Holy Spirit. So I am not sure what "Presence" you might be referring to that you are somehow experiencing, because He promises to never leave or forsake us, and that we will have peace and joy etc. Many people claim to 'experience A Presence" but it has nothing to do with God. Jesus stands in the presence of God for us. So are you on and off again in the presence of 'God'? If so, what is your proof?

Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. 18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. 21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

HR believes that they are Israel aka Hebrew people aka the physical Jews. By eliminating or replacing the descendents of Jacob which became Israel, they stake their claim on being the physical heirs of 'Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob." That's why it so important to expound the mantra that Jesus only came to the 'lost sheep of Israel'. This is where Ekklesia was also spouting in the Christian Identity end of it. IN order to believe, you must already be "hebrew' or Israel etc. Just a slightly different slant on an old argument. If that helps, Mary and Lois.

As far as keeping the feasts. It is blatantly false and impossible to keep the feasts according to the commandments found in the Sinai covenant. They were a shadow of things to come. Now, either one believes that they are to be kept the way God decreed them kept according to that covenant, or they believe they can play God and change those 'laws' which are unchangeable.

The reason they cannot be kept is that:
1) there is no Temple -it was destroyed ... Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away....
Heb 9:8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: ...11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; 12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. 13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: 14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. 22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. 23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: 25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

2) there is no Levitical priesthood to make the required animal sacrifices etc. - Heb 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? 12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. 13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar. 18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. 19 For ***the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.*** 20 And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest: 21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec 22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament. 23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death: 24 but this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. 25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. 26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; 27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself. 28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.


3) there needs to be a sin sacrifice and other required animal sacrifices including the various rituals on the physical altar, which is not there.
Hebrews 10:1-22 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. 2. For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. 3. But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. 4. For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. 5. Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: 6. *** In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.*** 7. Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. 8. Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; 9. Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. ***He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. *** 10. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11. And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12. But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13. From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14. For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 15. Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, 16. This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; 17. And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. 18. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. 19. Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20. By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; 21. And having an high priest over the house of God; 22. Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

4) the Sinai covenant was made with Israel --- Deu 5:1 And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them. 2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. 3 The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.

5) circumcision and the sabbath were the signs of the Sinai covenant -- Eze 20:12 Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them. Eze 20:20 And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I am the LORD your God.
Joh 7:22 Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers;) and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man. 23 If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day?

6) Jesus is our High Priest, the final sacrifice for all mankind. There can be no more animal sacrifices for those who believe Jesus Christ. -- Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Without abiding those exact and precise directives found within the Sinai covenant from God to Israel, there are no blessings. And it is delusion and deception that would make it appear there are blessings and that one can keep them or attempt to keep, or keep them 'the best they can'. Because Almighty God declared through Moses to Israel, the following:

Deu 5:31 But as for thee, stand thou here by me, and I will speak unto thee all the commandments, and the statutes, and the judgments, which thou shalt teach them, that they may do them in the land which I give them to possess it. 32 Ye shall observe to do therefore as the LORD your God hath commanded you: ye shall not turn aside to the right hand or to the left. 33 Ye shall walk in all the ways which the LORD your God hath commanded you, that ye may live, and that it may be well with you, and that ye may prolong your days in the land which ye shall possess.

Deu 7:11 Thou shalt therefore keep the commandments, and the statutes, and the judgments, which I command thee this day, to do them. 12 Wherefore it shall come to pass, if ye hearken to these judgments, and keep, and do them, that the LORD thy God shall keep unto thee the covenant and the mercy which he sware unto thy fathers:

Deu 28:1 And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe and to do all his commandments which I command thee this day, that the LORD thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth: 2 And all these blessings shall come on thee, and overtake thee, if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God.
....Deu 28:15 But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee: ...

Jos 8:34 And afterward he read all the words of the law, the blessings and cursings, according to all that is written in the book of the law.

Jer 11:3 And say thou unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel; Cursed be the man that obeyeth not the words of this covenant, 4 Which I commanded your fathers in the day that I brought them forth out of the land of Egypt, from the iron furnace, saying, Obey my voice, and do them, according to all which I command you: so shall ye be my people, and I will be your God:

It's called breaking the covenant to not do it ALL precisely as God directed, and which we see time and again that Israel broke the covenant and did not keep the law as God had commanded. So this idea of receiving blessings by NOT keeping the feasts, which are part of that Sinai covenant, according to the given requirements by God, is totally contrary to the Scriptures. Therefore to claim blessings or keeping them according to 'Torah' is entirely not possible. Therefore the curses are incurred, despite what one might think. People can fool themselves. They might even fool others with their claims of 'keeping the feasts' or 'keeping the law' or 'keeping Torah', but they cannot fool Almighty God.

Those who believe Jesus Christ are under the New Covenant, a New Priesthood and our High Priest is Jesus Christ.

Deu 27:26 Cursed be he that confirmeth not **all** the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen.

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in **all things** which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Psa 106:15 And he gave them their request; but sent leanness into their soul.

Michael Rood also spouted the crossing over thing, and he isn't Jewish either. From the article, The Spreading Hebrew Roots > http://www.seekgod.ca/spreadingroots.htm

Quote:...In fact, although apparently not Jewish, in his last two promotions for his October/ November 2003 tour to Israel, he used the phrases of come to "our Promised Land." 4 and also, promoted via Marshall Moshe Koniuchowsky's, Your Arms to Israel Newsletter, stated the following, which shows commitment to Koniuchowsky's Two House doctrine.

Subj: Fw: Come To Israel - An Update
"....The Jewish people have been paying the price for guarding the Torah for millennia now, and the cost has been paid in blood and in spirit. They are discouraged and bent to the breaking point. The question is, will the House of Israel hear their cry in this hour and respond, not only emotionally and spiritually, but tangibly?

...It has been oblivious, for the most part, to the tremendous cost being paid by their Jewish brethren to ensure that they would have a Torah by which to find their way back home! ... rarely has the House of Israel realized just how much the Jewish people are their brothers . . . and, so, have ignored the ageless question, "Am I my brothers keeper?" But now that the veil of exile is being lifted it is time for all Israel to unite once again, a time for all to bear the cost, and a time to come alongside our brothers and sisters in Israel, not only in prayer, but also in practical ways that will demonstrate the reality of this preserved remnant that is responding to the "raised banner" of Elohim. You are never forgotten, here in the Land . . . we just wonder where you are? ...What better way to demonstrate solidarity with your brothers and sisters than to visit them while they are carrying the burden of having resettled and maintained the Land?..."Leave Your Western Gentile Mentality Behind!"..."

In his tape Mikvah of the Baptisms, Michael Rood states, referring to Hebrews 6. "...--"Hebrews means to cross over, those who have joined themselves to Yahweh. Those who have identified with the Messiah are in fact Hebrews. It doesn't matter whether it is Jew, whether it is Gentile, whether it's a tribe of Ephraim, or the tribe of Benjamin, or Levite or Zulu..."

Hebrews were the Hebrew-speaking Jews, as distinguished from those who spoke Greek in the New Testament. (Acts 6:1; Phil 3:5 referring to Paul). Historically it was the name given the Israelites by foreigners. Some suggest it refers to the 'sons of Eber," an ancestor of Abraham. Others also suggest that it referred to Abraham coming to the Canaanites from beyond the Euphrates (Gen. 14:13). Either way, to suggest that all are Hebrews eliminates many Scriptures showing the different nations which were made by God. The twelve tribes were all part of Israel and Israel dwelled amongst many other nations.

Unfortunately far too many sincere believers are being seduced into every wind of doctrine, because they do not really know the Word of God. Many have been in experientially based fellowships, learning their doctrine from sources that, if really tested, will not stand the scrutiny of Scripture. So it is with the winds of doctrine spewed forth by false prophets like Michael Rood and many others in the Messianic movement and also the Christian arena. Many listen to what they are told the Scriptures are saying or should say or are being changed to say....but it is not what God's Word really says. And vain talkers readily take advantage of the lack of knowledge.

Matthew 15:13 But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

Ephesians 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

We come to the Father through Jesus Christ, not Israel. It's not geneology or lineage that makes us part of Christ. We are each saved by God's grace, not ourselves or what we think we can do, to try to be righteous. We have no righteousness in ourselves. Jesus is our righteousness. It's when we stop trying, and start allowing Christ to transform us, and allow Him to work through us that we begin to grow in grace and knowledge of Him. It is all about Him, not us.