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***Vic*** · 02-14-2012, 11:24 AM

Lois!

Orangejulius, first and foremost, anyone who belongs to Christ is to earnestly contend for the faith. Being concerned about reputation is not of Christ. It is bound to self and the flesh.

You came to an apologetics forum to 'defend' your groups reputation, but you aren't prepared to discuss what your group really believes. Swoon

Not only do they/you follow proven false prophet Ellen White---that is proven according to God's parameters regarding false prophets in the Scriptures, but Michael Rood, Wyatt--both proven false prophets and errant in doctrine. That aside from the whole claim of keeping the law-aka the Torah.

You can not be keeping the law according to the Scriptures because there is no Temple and no priesthood to give the required animal sacrifices under the law. So to claim to keep the law as was instructed by God to ISRAEL, which has been fulfilled in Christ under the New Covenant, each person who claims to be keeping it, are in fact inccurring the curses promised by God to those who did not keep the WHOLE law. That is in the Scriptures which you claim this group you are a part of abides by.

Deu 28:15 But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee:

Deu 11:26 Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse;
Deu 11:27 A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day:
Deu 11:28 And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.

Deu 12:32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

Deu 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

Jos 8:34 And afterward he read all the words of the law, the blessings and cursings, according to all that is written in the book of the law.

Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
Gal 3:9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Pro 30:5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
Pro 30:6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

Furthermore, in your post you used the "YHWY's" --could you please explain where you got that lettering? Thank you.

orangejulius · 02-14-2012, 08:08 PM

Hi Lois, Even tho I believe Ellen White had some things right I don't believe she was right on everything. If I was following her I would believe everything she says. I have family for instance that believe she is on the same level as the bible. If you show them something from the bible they want to know what she said about it. I don't take that view. (If you want me to share something with you on what I disagree with her on I would be glad too.) I personally believe her view on the law is correct. That will be something we will have to agree to disagree on.
As far as Micheal Rood he also has some things correct but again I don't go with every word that comes from his mouth. He has some beliefs I don't agree on. I glean from anyone I listen to and do away with the error. If I believe someone only has 25% good to share then it is not worth my while to wade through the bad to get to the good.
As far as Ron Wyatt I did not personally know the man but a friend of mine knew him personally. She said he was one of the humblest and godliest men she has ever known (By their fruits you will know them).
As far as my use of the YHWY is concerned it is an abbreviated form of one of God's names.
I guess I don't agree with you that I am not able to defend what I believe. I happen to believe the law is for our protection. Christ himself said not a jot or a tittle shall in no wise pass from the law. Till heaven and earth pass away he said in one place. It appears to me that heaven and earth are still here so I don't believe I am at liberty to say it is done. Christ died because it could not be altered. Otherwise He died in vain! I also am learning how to gain the victory through His grace and strength. Am I perfect? No! I just believe the bible teaches that we are going to be judged by the law. If the law is what we are judged by then it seems a cruel thing to get people to believe it is done away with. I am not a scholar by any means and I didn't do that well in school so I am sure that my grammar and everything else leave much to be desired. But I truly want to follow everything I know to be right. I see the law as a huge blessing. We will just have to agree to disagree. I will say that I am sorry you don't see the beauty in the law. You are missing an enormous blessing! Hope you have a good day.

Mary · 02-17-2012, 12:38 AM

(02-14-2012 08:08 PM)orangejulius Wrote: Hi Lois, Even tho I believe Ellen White had some things right I don't believe she was right on everything. If I was following her I would believe everything she says. I have family for instance that believe she is on the same level as the bible. If you show them something from the bible they want to know what she said about it. I don't take that view. (If you want me to share something with you on what I disagree with her on I would be glad too.) I personally believe her view on the law is correct. That will be something we will have to agree to disagree on.
As far as Micheal Rood he also has some things correct but again I don't go with every word that comes from his mouth. He has some beliefs I don't agree on. I glean from anyone I listen to and do away with the error. If I believe someone only has 25% good to share then it is not worth my while to wade through the bad to get to the good.
As far as Ron Wyatt I did not personally know the man but a friend of mine knew him personally. She said he was one of the humblest and godliest men she has ever known (By their fruits you will know them).
As far as my use of the YHWY is concerned it is an abbreviated form of one of God's names.
I guess I don't agree with you that I am not able to defend what I believe. I happen to believe the law is for our protection. Christ himself said not a jot or a tittle shall in no wise pass from the law. Till heaven and earth pass away he said in one place. It appears to me that heaven and earth are still here so I don't believe I am at liberty to say it is done. Christ died because it could not be altered. Otherwise He died in vain! I also am learning how to gain the victory through His grace and strength. Am I perfect? No! I just believe the bible teaches that we are going to be judged by the law. If the law is what we are judged by then it seems a cruel thing to get people to believe it is done away with. I am not a scholar by any means and I didn't do that well in school so I am sure that my grammar and everything else leave much to be desired. But I truly want to follow everything I know to be right. I see the law as a huge blessing. We will just have to agree to disagree. I will say that I am sorry you don't see the beauty in the law. You are missing an enormous blessing! Hope you have a good day.

Hi There,
Thanks for your information. Can you advise which law it is we will be judged by?

orangejulius · (This post was last modified: 02-17-2012 12:57 AM by orangejulius.)

Hi Lois,
I hadn't really shared much evidence why I believe the law is still binding so I wanted to share with you a few things. I don't expect it to change your mind, but felt I needed to back up what I said.
In Lev 23 God said these are My feasts. He never calls them Jewish feasts. He says the seventh day sabbath is the weekly feast and the others are to be proclaimed in their seasons. If you look up the word seasons in the original you will find that it first is mentioned in Gen 1:14.
Gen 1:14 And GodH430 said,H559 Let there beH1961 lightsH3974 in the firmamentH7549 of the heavenH8064 to divideH914 H996 the dayH3117 fromH996 the night;H3915 and let them beH1961 for signs,H226 and for seasons,H4150 and for days,H3117 and years:H8141
Here is the original for the word seasons:
H4150
מועדה מעד מועד
mô‛êd mô‛êd mô‛âdâh
mo-ade', mo-ade', mo-aw-daw'
From H3259; properly an appointment, that is, a fixed time or season; specifically a festival; conventionally a year; by implication, an assembly (as convened for a definite purpose); technically the congregation; by extension, the place of meeting; also a signal (as appointed beforehand): - appointed (sign, time), (place of, solemn) assembly, congregation, (set, solemn) feast, (appointed, due) season, solemn (-ity), synagogue, (set) time (appointed).

That tells me that the moon was made so that would would know when to meet with Him on His yearly appointments. That also was before sin ever entered the earth. That is why it says in
Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
If we are going to be keeping them in the new earth why wouldn't we still be keeping them down here on earth? Why would God say ok the Jews only will keep them and then the people after the cross won't be, but then we will resume them in the new earth.
The way I see it is the bible says in Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not...
Also in Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
Since I believe the bible when it says that Jesus is God manifest in the flesh then I can understand that God doesn't change.
Why would He require one thing for the earlier people and not follow it all the way through?
Also it makes Paul a hypocrite. He kept the feasts and even said in 1Co 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
It also seems to me that Paul would be shouting it from the rooftops not to keep them if it would slap Jesus in the face (which is what most people believe). Also why did God honor the disciples on Pentacost if it was done at the cross. There is just too much evidence for keeping them. I personally believe that we should go with the preponderence of the evidence. I also believe Paul is greatly misunderstood. That's why I believe it is important to look at the original. The translators have put their slant on many things that were translated. We need to look at the original for ourselves. For instance there are verses that were added that were never in the original. That was so they could try to put in their own teachings that were never intended to be in God's word. Enough on that.

Here in Mal 4:4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments. The whole chapter is about the end of time.

You asked what part of the law we keep. We believe what ended at the cross were the blood sacrifices and the meat and drink offerings. Here is the verse in Daniel.
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The rest of the law has to do with our relationship with God and our worship of Him and special time with Him. And the other parts of it have to do with how we treat our neighbor. There are also things about how to take care of our bodies. There are statutes on homosexuality and tithing and the list is more than I can mention here. The thing is what part of the law should we do away with? Should we say it is ok to be homosexuals today or to not give our tithe to further the Lord's work? Is it ok to commit adultery? There are statutes on that as well. That's why it is for our protection. It is protecting us from hurting ourselves through wrong relationships. As far as the Sabbaths are concerned why would anyone not want special time with God that He has set aside. God is trying to protect our time with Him. One last thing. People try to use Col 2:16,17 to say they are done away. Here it is:
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
First of all it says that man is not our judge. It doesn't say anything about them ending at the cross. Second of all Paul was post calvary and he is saying they are(present tense) a shadow of things to come.

I believe that to be true as well.
1.Unleavened bread is about getting the sin out of our lives.
2.Pentacost is about the latter rain (which will fall on Pentacost)
3.Trumpets is about the final call talked about in Revelation. It is where the Trumpet plagues are being poured out. God is calling people to repent.
4. The final Atonement is when Christ stands up and says :
Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
It is when probation will be over.
5. Tabernacles is about tabernacling with a holy God. When He finally comes to take us home.

When I started seeing all the puzzle pieces coming together it made the old testament come to life. All I know is that a few yrs ago I was a druggie and a drunk. The Lord freed me through prayer & anointing. Now my relationship with Him is so much stronger. The bible has come alive to me as never before. I hope I haven't bored you or made things more confusing as to what I believe. I do want to say that I am choosing to speak for myself personally. I know this started out to defend Lighted way, but I know God is perfectly capable of taking care of their reputation. He is able to take care of mine but I know there is a place and the bible says we should be ready to give an answer to every man of the hope that lies within us. I know that without the blood of Jesus(Yashua) covering me I am nothing. He is my Hope and my Righteousness. May God bless you. Sincerely, OrangeJulius

(02-17-2012 12:38 AM)Mary Wrote:
(02-14-2012 08:08 PM)orangejulius Wrote: Hi Lois, Even tho I believe Ellen White had some things right I don't believe she was right on everything. If I was following her I would believe everything she says. I have family for instance that believe she is on the same level as the bible. If you show them something from the bible they want to know what she said about it. I don't take that view. (If you want me to share something with you on what I disagree with her on I would be glad too.) I personally believe her view on the law is correct. That will be something we will have to agree to disagree on.
As far as Micheal Rood he also has some things correct but again I don't go with every word that comes from his mouth. He has some beliefs I don't agree on. I glean from anyone I listen to and do away with the error. If I believe someone only has 25% good to share then it is not worth my while to wade through the bad to get to the good.
As far as Ron Wyatt I did not personally know the man but a friend of mine knew him personally. She said he was one of the humblest and godliest men she has ever known (By their fruits you will know them).
As far as my use of the YHWY is concerned it is an abbreviated form of one of God's names.
I guess I don't agree with you that I am not able to defend what I believe. I happen to believe the law is for our protection. Christ himself said not a jot or a tittle shall in no wise pass from the law. Till heaven and earth pass away he said in one place. It appears to me that heaven and earth are still here so I don't believe I am at liberty to say it is done. Christ died because it could not be altered. Otherwise He died in vain! I also am learning how to gain the victory through His grace and strength. Am I perfect? No! I just believe the bible teaches that we are going to be judged by the law. If the law is what we are judged by then it seems a cruel thing to get people to believe it is done away with. I am not a scholar by any means and I didn't do that well in school so I am sure that my grammar and everything else leave much to be desired. But I truly want to follow everything I know to be right. I see the law as a huge blessing. We will just have to agree to disagree. I will say that I am sorry you don't see the beauty in the law. You are missing an enormous blessing! Hope you have a good day.

Hi There,
Thanks for your information. Can you advise which law it is we will be judged by?

Yes I can. Here in Jas 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. The word law in the original is:
In G3551
νόμος
nomos
nom'-os
From a primary word νέμω nemō (to parcel out, especially food or grazing to animals); law (through the idea of prescriptive usage), generally (regulation), specifically (of Moses [including the volume]; also of the Gospel), or figuratively (a principle): - law.

God bless

**Lois** · 02-17-2012, 09:54 PM

I have thought about how to tackle your last post Orange,there are a lot of things in it that I could refute with scripture but the biggest problem I see in doing all that is what you say here,

Quote:The translators have put their slant on many things that were translated.
We need to look at the original for ourselves. For instance there are verses that were added that were never in the original.
That was so they could try to put in their own teachings that were never intended to be in God's word. Enough on that.

For starters,how do you or anyone else know what God intended for His word?

Romans 11:34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?

What is in God's word is exactly what God wanted in there,period.

Do you really want to believe that God could not or would not protect His word and preserve it exactly in a way that he wants it preserved from generation to generation?

O ye of little faith

You have been listening to man,Orange and not listening to God.

Do you really think that man,beast or the devil could ever hinder the work of God?

Is man more powerful than God?

The Bible has suffered more vicious attacks and attempts to destroy it than any other book in history.

John 1:1 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Do you really want to believe that God,the one that sent His only begotten Son to die for us,would then leave us high and dry with a slanted,corrupted text to fumble around in the dark with and maybe if we are lucky find our way?

Psalms 12:6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

Pro 30:5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.

2Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

You have listened to way to many men.You have given men more credit than they deserve.
You doubted God and discredited Him and His word.You have taken the word of a man as truth..instead of the word of God.

1Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

2Samuel 22:31 As for God, his way is perfect; the word of the LORD is tried: he is a buckler to all them that trust in him.

Psalms 9:10 And they that know thy name will put their trust in thee: for thou, LORD, hast not forsaken them that seek thee.

Psalms 40:4 Blessed is that man that maketh the LORD his trust, and respecteth not the proud, nor such as turn aside to lies.

Psalms 118:8 It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.
9 It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in princes.

Psalms 119:42 So shall I have wherewith to answer him that reproacheth me: for I trust in thy word.

Trust in Him and His word alone.

orangejulius · 02-17-2012, 11:20 PM

I am just curious. Where do you think the translations came from? They were written by men who were not always inspired by God. For instance the NIV makes Christ to be the one that fell from heaven. I believe it is Isaiah 14:12 that talks about Lucifer falling from heaven. The NIV makes him to be Christ by calling him Morning Star. Christ is the Morning Star. Some of the translations do away with important teachings by leaving out whole verses. I do believe the King James is the purest, but it still has its problems.The original has not been tainted by mens beliefs. Do I believe that a christian can be saved reading one of the translations? Absolutely! But when we understand better we are expected to do better. This will be my last post. I realize I have not brought glory to the Father by what I am doing. Take care!

**Lois** · 02-18-2012, 02:13 AM

Again,who are you going to believe God,who says His word is pure or a man who says God's word isn't pure?

Who are you willing to put your trust in God or a man?

2Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Here are articles on bible versions and translations.

http://www.seekgod.ca/chart.htm

http://www.seekgod.ca/topicbible.htm

You can study 24/7 but what good would it do you if you do not believe what God has said?

There are no problems with the KJV.

No man can circumvent Almighty God.

You let someone put the seed of doubt in your mind that God's word is "tainted".

1Th 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

Jesus said,
John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

You have thrown out the word of God and made it of no effect calling it tainted and slanted and you have taken on the doctrines of men has truth.
How is that understanding better or doing better?

I am not trying to sale you anything here,Orange.

I have no doctrine except the gospel of Jesus Christ.

You can read all my posts.

Which of us speaks contrary to the word of God?

You say that God's word is tainted.
The men that you have been listening to say that God's word is tainted.

God says His word is pure,inspired,truth and I say that God's word is pure,inspired truth.(because I believe and trust God)

You have chosen to put your faith and trust in these men and not God.

Romans 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

Col1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Whether or not you post any more is your choice.

I really recommend that you just read the bible and trust God.

I pray that God's will be done.

**Lois** · 02-19-2012, 01:14 AM

I posted this before but something happened and the post disappeared..so I thought I would rewrite and re-post it.

The problem I have with gleaning from people that err from scripture is that you have to weed through all their material,basically studying it to see where it errs and doesn't.
They may make some good points here or there that agree with scripture but you have to be subjected to all the error in between.

How much error can you subject yourself to before you are drawn under the influence of it?

How much can you flirt with false doctrine before you are seduced by it and indoctrinated into it?

Mark 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
1John 2:26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.

2Timothy 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
1Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

How much error and corruption can you sow into your spirit before you reap that error and corruption?

Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

A corrupted tree cannot bring forth good fruit.

A corrupted message cannot produce good fruit.

A corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

If you sow the seeds of error and corruption,you will reap(bringeth forth) error and corruption.

Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

We are to be sowing good seed into are hearts and spirits.

Luke 8:11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

Mark 4:14 The sower soweth the word.

Mark 4:15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

God has given us many warnings to guard ourselves against false teachers,deceivers and seducers.We would do well to heed those warnings and not toy around with people that teach contrary to the word of God.

2Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Mark 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Jesus said,If ye continue in my word, ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

He did not say if you continue in someone else's word,teaching or doctrine,ye shall know the truth,Jesus said,If ye continue in my word ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.