Born in Sin

[sheep wrecked]

Do we have a sinful "nature"? In other words, are we born with sinful hearts and minds? Are babies innocent and incapable of sinning? When do people "get sinful"? Is there an age of "accountability"?

any thoughts?

[LindaR]

(02-07-2009 04:56 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote:  Do we have a sinful "nature"? In other words, are we born with sinful hearts and minds? Are babies innocent and incapable of sinning? When do people "get sinful"? Is there an age of "accountability"?

any thoughts?

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (Romans 5:12)

The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. (Psalms 58:3)

I believe that we all are born with a sin nature...but sin is not imputed where there is no law (Romans 5:3) Therefore, babies are innocent until they reach an age (age of accountability) when they have knowledge of sin.

Not sure what you mean when you ask "When to people get sinful?"

This should be an interesting thread

[sheep wrecked]

(03-29-2009 02:54 AM)LindaR Wrote:  

(02-07-2009 04:56 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote:  Do we have a sinful "nature"? In other words, are we born with sinful hearts and minds? Are babies innocent and incapable of sinning? When do people "get sinful"? Is there an age of "accountability"?

any thoughts?

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (Romans 5:12)

The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. (Psalms 58:3)

I believe that we all are born with a sin nature...but sin is not imputed where there is no law (Romans 5:3) Therefore, babies are innocent until they reach an age (age of accountability) when they have knowledge of sin.

Not sure what you mean when you ask "When to people get sinful?"

This should be an interesting thread

Hmm - I don't recall writing "when do people get sinful" Do you have a context for that - the old mind ticks to a different drummer some days and I just ain't there :music:

According to Psalms 58:3 we are born as liars from the womb. So I am not sure about "age of accountability" is when sin is "imputed". A good example of this was Rebecca who experienced Jacob and Esau fighting in the womb

Sin is imputed at conception per Psalm 51. Sin was "imputed" the instant Eve bit in the apple.

I think there might be some confusion in applying the "Law" of Rom 5:3 to the sin nature. People sinned long before the Law was given at Mt Sinai and were aware of it as we see with Noah and sons as God said he was the only righteous one left. And with Cain and Abel.

Yep - this is very interesting

[LindaR]

(03-29-2009 12:07 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote:  

(03-29-2009 02:54 AM)LindaR Wrote:  

(02-07-2009 04:56 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote:  Do we have a sinful "nature"? In other words, are we born with sinful hearts and minds? Are babies innocent and incapable of sinning? When do people "get sinful"? Is there an age of "accountability"?

any thoughts?

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (Romans 5:12)

The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. (Psalms 58:3)

I believe that we all are born with a sin nature...but sin is not imputed where there is no law (Romans 5:3) Therefore, babies are innocent until they reach an age (age of accountability) when they have knowledge of sin.

Not sure what you mean when you ask "When to people get sinful?"

This should be an interesting thread

Hmm - I don't recall writing "when do people get sinful" Do you have a context for that - the old mind ticks to a different drummer some days and I just ain't there :music:

According to Psalms 58:3 we are born as liars from the womb. So I am not sure about "age of accountability" is when sin is "imputed". A good example of this was Rebecca who experienced Jacob and Esau fighting in the womb

Sin is imputed at conception per Psalm 51. Sin was "imputed" the instant Eve bit in the apple.

I think there might be some confusion in applying the "Law" of Rom 5:3 to the sin nature. People sinned long before the Law was given at Mt Sinai and were aware of it as we see with Noah and sons as God said he was the only righteous one left. And with Cain and Abel.

Yep - this is very interesting

That question "When do people "get sinful"? is one of the questions you asked in the OP...that's why I asked because I am confused about the context in which you were asking it.

Would you also clarify "which law" is meant in Romans 5:3....I realize it wasn't the Mosaic Law, but there had to have been some type of law...perhaps the law of conscience?

[sheep wrecked]

(03-29-2009 12:55 PM)LindaR Wrote:  That question "When do people "get sinful"? is one of the questions you asked in the OP...that's why I asked because I am confused about the context in which you were asking it.

Would you also clarify "which law" is meant in Romans 5:3....I realize it wasn't the Mosaic Law, but there had to have been some type of law...perhaps the law of conscience?

oh yeah - short memory span

I think I was trying to engage some discussion, as I have heard that some believe sin comes at an age of accountability. From what I understand from reading the Bible is that sin is imputed at conception. A child may not understand his sin, but he still sins even as an infant. If you have children it's amazing at how young they learn to manipulate and throw temper tantrums

Torah shows that sin is in the heart - Jesus reiterated that sin is conceived and birthed there - that is the "Law" of sin. We are born with a conscience. Some are seared. It is through the Holy Spirit that we all convicted of sin, as we are told in the NT.

Joh 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send him to you.
Joh 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Joh 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
Joh 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and you see me no more;
Joh 16:11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

I believe that Messianics who keep pushing that Christians do not know what sin is unless they read the Torah, are pushing a concept that is unBiblical. We do not need to read Torah to know what sin is now that the School Master has come :hands:

[LindaR]

(03-29-2009 01:40 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote:  

(03-29-2009 12:55 PM)LindaR Wrote:  That question "When do people "get sinful"? is one of the questions you asked in the OP...that's why I asked because I am confused about the context in which you were asking it.

Would you also clarify "which law" is meant in Romans 5:3....I realize it wasn't the Mosaic Law, but there had to have been some type of law...perhaps the law of conscience?

oh yeah - short memory span

I think I was trying to engage some discussion, as I have heard that some believe sin comes at an age of accountability. From what I understand from reading the Bible is that sin is imputed at conception. A child may not understand his sin, but he still sins even as an infant. If you have children it's amazing at how young they learn to manipulate and throw temper tantrums

Torah shows that sin is in the heart - Jesus reiterated that sin is conceived and birthed there - that is the "Law" of sin. We are born with a conscience. Some are seared. It is through the Holy Spirit that we all convicted of sin, as we are told in the NT.

Joh 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send him to you.
Joh 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Joh 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
Joh 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and you see me no more;
Joh 16:11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

I believe that Messianics who keep pushing that Christians do not know what sin is unless they read the Torah, are pushing a concept that is unBiblical. We do not need to read Torah to know what sin is now that the School Master has come :hands:

I realize that you don't have to teach a child to sin...I have 2 of my own and they have their own (I'm a granny), but IMO, the age of accountability comes when the child realizes that he/she is doing wrong..an infant is innocent until that point. Therefore the accountability comes at different ages...accountability is not at ONE certain age (i.e. the age of 12). Next question: If a child dies in infancy, before that knowledge/accountability, will that infant go to heaven or hell? No, I am not a Calvinist, but this is a common question they ask.

When you say sin is imputed at conception, do you mean that all are born with a sin nature? I think that is what you mean, but I just want to clarify, if I am misunderstanding you.

[Vic]

(03-29-2009 02:02 PM)LindaR Wrote:  I realize that you don't have to teach a child to sin...I have 2 of my own and they have their own (I'm a granny), but IMO, the age of accountability comes when the child realizes that he/she is doing wrong..an infant is innocent until that point. Therefore the accountability comes at different ages...accountability is not at ONE certain age (i.e. the age of 12). Next question: If a child dies in infancy, before that knowledge/accountability, will that infant go to heaven or hell? No, I am not a Calvinist, but this is a common question they ask.

When you say sin is imputed at conception, do you mean that all are born with a sin nature? I think that is what you mean, but I just want to clarify, if I am misunderstanding you.

Having buried two babies, I know full well the desire to believe they are with Christ. In fact, with the first, that idea was conveyed to me by the pastor and other Christians. It brought comfort, because I had almost died, was young and immature, and felt somewhat cheated. The idea that he was safe in Jesus' arms gave me something to comfort me with.

Five yrs later our last baby son died at 3 days old. I had grown much as a Christian. Where before I had asked God why, had anger and depression, this time I was able to say, God's will be done. I also was able to consider that whether they were in heaven or not...it was totally in God's very capable hands and judgement. I was able to trust that it wasn't my concern. Mine was to fully and completely trust Him and live for Him.

I think that is where we need to get with regards to babies and children that die when we view it as 'before their time'. It is always God's perfect timing and for His perfect purposes.

I think awareness of sin and to sin comes long before we understand sin. I think doing sin also comes before we understand it. Take a toddler whom you tell no to, who looks at you, having already learned what no means, and does what they were told not to. Just because it seems baby sized sin, it is still sin. When we consider that God is Holy and perfect, that baby sized sin may be the size of a mountain in His perspective.

I think being born into sin is just that.

[LindaR]

vic Wrote:I think awareness of sin and to sin comes long before we understand sin. I think doing sin also comes before we understand it. Take a toddler whom you tell no to, who looks at you, having already learned what no means, and does what they were told not to. Just because it seems baby sized sin, it is still sin. When we consider that God is Holy and perfect, that baby sized sin may be the size of a mountain in His perspective.

I agree. It's only when we look at the price Jesus Christ paid for sin, do we understand how aweful it really is...even then, I don't really think our finite minds understand sin's full impact.

[Emjesown]

Hello

I don t come with verses but my thoughts on it.

I think we are born with the abilty to sin.
Its there!
But then we have also free will
So if we have the urge to sin Holy Spirit warns us and we choose
Not do it
or
do it

Baby's are innocent until they can think
so thinking is a part of it to
as soon as they can say NO they do, naturally.
This tells me that rebellion is part of human being.

Bible sais no one is good.....
OT sais our rightesness is as filthy raggs.
So sin is in us
but how it comes out
is different for everybody.
Conscience is also working in most cases.

And because of accepting jesus no sin is imputed but His rightesness is.
So we do sin
because we are born sinners.

EMJE

[sheep wrecked]

(03-29-2009 02:02 PM)LindaR Wrote:  I realize that you don't have to teach a child to sin...I have 2 of my own and they have their own (I'm a granny), but IMO, the age of accountability comes when the child realizes that he/she is doing wrong..an infant is innocent until that point. Therefore the accountability comes at different ages...accountability is not at ONE certain age (i.e. the age of 12). Next question: If a child dies in infancy, before that knowledge/accountability, will that infant go to heaven or hell? No, I am not a Calvinist, but this is a common question they ask.

I suppose it depends on the definition of "innocent". When it comes to human nature, I don't see it as innocence. I think that is a feel good concept, but not reality from God's perspective. A newborn is as filthy inwardly as an adult according to scripture. We perceive innocence because we do not see the heart, but the outward expression of helplessness as "innocence". That's my 2 cents worth

I believe that God sees through the tunnel of time. An infant that dies or is still born, or is mentally disabled is seen as God sees them, not us. He knows ultimately if a child will be "saved" or not and judges in a way that we cannot understand.

There are times in the OT when babies were killed along with parents. And times when God commanded that ALL from a particular town or nation were to be killed - because He knew that if the babies survived they would become the enemies of Israel. Who can know the mind of God?

As a born and raised Calvinist [now former] I was taught to believe that infant baptism for those of believing parents guaranteed salvation. In that doctrine, all babies that were born or still born of believing parents were said to go to Heaven. I no longer believe that due to my observations of some from Christian families who fell away from the faith. There is no "protection" from eternal damnation outside of personal salvation other than the mercy and grace of God, and His perfect judgements --- and He extends that to whom He will.

Rom 9:10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calls;)
Rom 9:12 It was said to her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Rom 9:15 For he said to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but of God that shows mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture said to Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore has he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardens.
Rom 9:19 You will say then to me, Why does he yet find fault? For who has resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 No but, O man, who are you that reply against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why have you made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Has not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel to honor, and another to dishonor?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much long-suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had before prepared to glory,

Quote:When you say sin is imputed at conception, do you mean that all are born with a sin nature? I think that is what you mean, but I just want to clarify, if I am misunderstanding you.[/color][/b]

yep - the word imputed is sort of a strange word maybe - I mean that all are born with a sin nature